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View Full Version : The Neo-Danubian Race (for Jakub)



Zyklop
Saturday, July 17th, 2004, 03:08 PM
What´s wrong with the concept of a Neo-Danubian race? ;)

Jakub
Saturday, July 17th, 2004, 03:11 PM
What´s wrong with the concept of a Neo-Danubian race? ;)


It doesn't exist as defined by Coon. That's it.

I mean, I've got nothing against Red Riding Hood or Santa Claus either, but they ain't real. And there's the rub. ;)

Zyklop
Saturday, July 17th, 2004, 03:19 PM
Ok here is the SNPA definition:


Neo-Danubian

Etymology:
The term Neo-Danubian is derived from Danubian ("of the River Danube"), a cultural designation associated with the proto-Nordics of the Neolithic, who brought Indo-European language (Slavic and Baltic) to the eastern steppes.

Other names:

- Oriental (Deniker)
- Osteuropid (von Eickstedt; includes the East Baltic type)
- Pre-Slavic (Czekanowski)
- Slavic (popular anthropology)
- Subnordic (Deniker; includes the East Baltic type)

Origin:

Danubian proto-Nordic altered by the semi-mongolid Ladogan racial type of the northeastern forests. This type was brought westward from the Volga country with the migrations of the Baltic Finns during the centuries immediately preceding and after the time of Christ. Today it presents a variable but easily recognizable phenotype of eastern Europe.


Description:

Neo-Danubians are very round-skulled, and their cephalic indices frequently exceed 85. The head form is globular, and the forehead is steep and not seldom protuberant. The face is square to oval in shape, and the combination of a round face and a plump cheek is common. There is often a slight flatness to the Neo-Danubian face.

The nose is moderately leptorrhine, straight to concave in profile, and often snub-tipped in a Ladogan fashion. The nasal skeleton is rather low, with a broad tip.

The upper lip is long and convex, and the cheek furrows are as a rule strong.

Median eyefolds are indicative of a low orbit a heavy deposit of fat in the upper lid. Another fatty deposit - on the malars - seems to be a secondary sex character, as it is most common among women. The malars are only moderately projecting, especially when compared to those of East Baltics and Ladogans.

Neo-Danubian pigmentation is more blond than brunet, and the pigment character is prevailingly light-mixed. The combination of ash-blond hair with gray-mixed eyes seems to be a specialization shared with East Baltics and partially blond Ladogans, but the most common combination is golden blond hair and blue eyes.
http://www.fikas.no/~sprocket/snpa/rg-neo.htm

What´s wrong with this definition? Do you think this is just a special East-Baltid mix with other subraces?

Jakub
Saturday, July 17th, 2004, 04:47 PM
Well, the SNPA also says that Poland has 55% of this Neo-Danubian race.

But the characteristics of the Neo-Danubians, as described by Coon and the SNPA, are uncommon in Poland.

For example, concave noses are less common in Poland than in Scandinavia. Anyone who has ever been in Poland knows that. Convex noses are actually much more common there.

I won't even go on about body height, which has risen in Poland to well above any supposed Neo-Danubian level (177-180cm on average).

From a genetic point of view, the Neo-Danubian race could never have existed in Poland.

There is not much trace of any "Ladogan" DNA in the Polish population, or most other areas said by Coon to be inhabited by Neo-Danubians.

The only possible marker I can think of that can be attributed to Ladogans is Tat-C, and so far, it's been found in about 4% of Poles.

Then again, Tat-C is at its highest in populations where Neo-Danubians were never said to have existed, so go figure. Maybe there is no such thing as the Ladogan race, and never was? I think that's quite likely.

I think that Coon didn't have much of an idea about Eastern Europe (and neither do the people at SNPA), but felt compelled to explain his data with some sort of a theory.

If the Neo-Danubian race did, or does, exist anywhere, it's in far north Russia and Finland, amongst the Uralic natives there. Those people are basically a mix of Lapps, paleo-Asiatics and Nords. So they're not even Neo-Danubians by strict definition, but they're close I guess.

What passed for Neo-Danubian in Poland before WWII wasn't actually what Coon said it was.

In the early 1900s Poland was basically the same as it is today - a mix of Intermarine (Slavic Nordics) with Alpines, as well as some East Baltic, Littoral Nordic (NW European type), and Uralic. The big difference was that the population was stunted due to harsh economic conditions, and this affected a lot of things, not just body build and height. It also probably had a bearing on facial and head structure, which seems much different in younger Poles than in those born 50+ years ago.

These days, anyone who's read Coon's book will say they see a Neo-Danubian in anyone who looks Polish. But they're not actually seeing Neo-Danubians, they're seeing Intermarine features.

It would be very difficult to find pictures of Poles who look like the people in Coon's plates designated as Neo-Danubian. Well, it would be very difficult to find such people aged under 30-40 anyway.

Here are some pics of Poles. This is the single most common look in Poland - the Intermarine type. It looks kind of Nordic, but isn't really. It comes from the Black Sea steppes, and has become rounder headed in Poland due to natural selection and Alpine admixture over the last 1000 years. In the group photo you may notice a couple of the Poles exhibiting East Baltic features. They're present all over the country, but are not as common as is often claimed. Their origins are probably the same as those of the 4% of Tat-C in Poland - Finno-Ugrian introduced via the Balts such as the Prussians and Lithuanians.

Btw, the East Baltic race is also found in north-east Germany, but is even less common than in Poland. Most of the "East Baltics" in Germany are actually classic Borrebies.

But the Intermarine type is quite common in Germany. In the east, obviously, and in the Ruhr, where many Poles settled over the last 200 years.

Prodigal Son
Sunday, July 18th, 2004, 09:06 AM
I agree with you that so-called "Neo-Danubians" do not exist anywhere as a race (save perhaps Karelia), but represent rather sporadic genetic recombination of the Finno-Ugric substratum absorbed by Slavs. Uralic strains, very weak everywhere in European Russia save the extreme Northeast are almost nonexistent in Poland.

dzaborow
Wednesday, November 23rd, 2005, 04:53 AM
I find it curious that all these so called Nordicists don't seem to have any new ideas or information outside of their simplistic interpretations of Coon's 1939 book "The Races of Europe". I suggest that they consult more recent and up to date gene research by Geneticist Lucas Cavalli-Sforza and join the 21st century.

anonymaus
Wednesday, November 23rd, 2005, 06:02 AM
I find it curious that all these so called Nordicists don't seem to have any new ideas or information outside of their simplistic interpretations of Coon's 1939 book "The Races of Europe". I suggest that they consult more recent and up to date gene research by Geneticist Lucas Cavalli-Sforza and join the 21st century.

1) There are now four people, and one troll, in this thread. None have declared themselves nordicists here, beyond the implication due to membership. You are speaking to those people, not about them--you would do well to address people as if they, i don't know, exist?

2) New ideas and new information come in all the time, and we aggregate as much data as possible for people; the value of data we amass on Skadi is to be judged on its own merit from the individual member's point of view, as it would be anywhere else. Consequently, a likely majority of members on Skadi disagree with much of Coon's work, and I would venture to say that most people involved in anthropological classifications consider the validity of sub-racial classification, again, on the merit of the researcher and the data; common sense is not denied, here, due to ideology. Be it for or against: we simply don't allow it. People get called on bullshit, here.

3) Do you know what Isee? I see legitimate critical analysis and spirited debate--of all data and parties involved. Do you know what I see, when I read about Cavalli-Sforza? Ideological bias; feigned debate. Like an election in a dictatorship, the process looks authentic enough to fool your average uninformed cretin - your generic slack-jawed onlooker doesn't know the difference.

We do know the difference, and I thank you for allowing us such a clear picture of what an aloof and utterly biased individual can achieve when he latches on to a single source of scientific research as if it were a holy grail--and proceeds to proselytize His Word to the ignorant heathens.

And besides all that, the desire to preserve and to progress our people and culture - and for all peoples and cultures to wish the same - is the foundation of our community; science is not. Science is part of it, but it is also ever-evolving, we are always learning, and we cannot hope to be as astute today as we may be in one hundred years. Empirical science is a description, an investigation, in to what and how things are and how they became. The desire to survive is neither driven, nor limited, by scientific description.

Loki
Wednesday, November 23rd, 2005, 09:27 AM
I suggest that they consult more recent and up to date gene research by Geneticist Lucas Cavalli-Sforza and join the 21st century.

Why would I read anything from that senile old fart? :coffee:

Death and the Sun
Wednesday, November 23rd, 2005, 02:36 PM
I find it curious that all these so called Nordicists don't seem to have any new ideas or information outside of their simplistic interpretations of Coon's 1939 book "The Races of Europe". I suggest that they consult more recent and up to date gene research by Geneticist Lucas Cavalli-Sforza and join the 21st century.

You find it curious, now, do you? :rolleyes:

It would be nice to see some arguments to back up your allegations. Unless, of course, some less lenient moderator than myself flushes you down the toilet first.

Sigurd
Saturday, November 26th, 2005, 01:10 AM
I may also note on this topic, that, in 1939, when Coon wrote his book, Poland as such did not exist in the way it does today. Poland in 1939, just before its annexation into the Germanisches Reich Deutscher Nation, a.k.a. NS Germany, comprised the areas of today's Eastern Poland, Southern Lithuania and almost all of Belarus. And, as far as I have seen from pictures of people from this area, these are more likely to be closer to the Neo Danubian subrace as it has been constructed, than those that live in nowadays Poland, a place that should, indeed, by its geographical area, be called "Prussia", where East Baltics, Norics and East Nordids are much more common, plus Dinaroalpinids (yes, I define them as such) in Poland's south. The Alpinid features are quite common in the Polish population as such, plus the nasal convexity is quite suggestive of Dinaroid influences, as amongst those races that are compatible of natively living in Middle and Northern Europe, DInarics are almost the only ones that have clearly convex noses.

frankfurter
Tuesday, November 29th, 2005, 12:14 AM
I have seen pics of Poles who indeed look Neo-Danubian, as well as East Baltics and even a few (less Danubian) Ladogan-leaning individuals. 55% is too high, maybe way too high for Poland, and many of the NDs there are mixed with Alpine and/or Dinaric. Karelia, Byelorussia and parts of the northern Ukraine have much higher percentages. Slovenia, like Poland is mixed. It is ridiculous, however, to say there is no such racial type.
As for convex noses, the Corded type can also have them.

Väring
Thursday, December 1st, 2005, 05:54 PM
I think Neo-Danubian is the same as Savolaxid in Lundman's system. A small-grown East-Baltid of sorts.

palesye
Thursday, December 1st, 2005, 06:01 PM
Hmm... The only Russian which was classified here as Savolaxid was Yuri Syomin. Does it mean that this type is not common in Russia?

http://www.forums.skadi.net/showthread.php?t=11841

Lissu
Thursday, December 1st, 2005, 06:39 PM
I think Neo-Danubian is the same as Savolaxid in Lundman's system. A small-grown East-Baltid of sorts.Hmm... Define small-grown, please...

norda
Thursday, December 1st, 2005, 09:08 PM
I think Neo-Danubian is the same as Savolaxid in Lundman's system. A small-grown East-Baltid of sorts.
Indeed the average height was the strongest argument for separating NE Europeans from NW populations. However, comparing to published data from the first half of XX c. a positive secular trend in height was found among Europeans. The average increase was more then 1 cm per decade while in East Europe the rate exceeds 2 cm. This positive trend must be related to the general improvement in the population's standard living conditions, as the striking drop of post-neonatal mortality rate shows after the 1960s.
Its worth to note, that nowadays Britons are shorter then “Alpine” Czechs.

Triglav
Friday, December 2nd, 2005, 03:43 PM
The problem is not the existence of Neo-Danubians but the very definition thereof. The Ladogan skull is questionable to say the least. So is the substantial Mongoloid component in these Neo-Danubians.

What Coon defined as Neo-Danubian is actually a fluid type, mainly a depigmented East Alpinid/Cro-Magnid/Baltid combination.

How come some people are so hung up on the theories of one anthropologist from the beginning of the last century?

Triglav
Friday, December 2nd, 2005, 03:56 PM
Slovenia, like Poland is mixed. It is ridiculous, however, to say there is no such racial type.


Mixed as in featuring several types, yes. But people who look like Coon's Neo-Danubian - give me a break. Sure there are Baltid-looking people, but they are definable within the Baltid type.


Gregor Golobic:

http://www.novomesto.lds.si/img/golobic.jpg



Marko Pogorevc:

http://24ur.com/media/images///213xX/Nov2001//4809.jpg



Matej Lahovnik:

http://www.mladina.si/tednik/200433/clanek/slo-intervju--ali_h_zerdin/img/intervju-lahovnik-094-2_display.jpg


Anthropologists often come up with odd types (like Skerlj's Pannonid or Scandid) and they shouldn't be taken too seriously.

norda
Friday, December 2nd, 2005, 06:48 PM
Clearly this type was not recognized by any other anthropologist hence the problematic interpretation. I tried to analyze the specific features which Coon described including peculiar form of the nose and I came to conclusion that he probably wrongly interpreted specific regional phenomena of few strongly brachycephalic counties of S. Polesia where depigmented post Feno-Ugric Cro-Magnonid of this refuge area was modified by Dinarid Carpathian Ukrainians withdrawing to avoid steppe invasion. This recombination was accompanied by probably evolutionary disappearance of Neolithic Mediterranid racial element. Interestingly the similar racial phenomena was also described by Czekanowski among Sudetian Germans.

frankfurter
Sunday, December 4th, 2005, 07:01 AM
If you look at pictures of Byelorussian women on "Russian Bride" websites you will see a number of women who have grey eyes and ash-blond or brown hair who are too infantile to be East-Baltics. They are what is often described as "Neo-Danubian". These features can also be seen among some people in neighboring parts of eastern Poland and the northern Ukraine, as well as occasionally among Slovaks, Slovenians, east-central Germans, and occasionally among other Slavic groups, Hungarians and Romanians. It is typical of the Karelians and more easterly Finno-Ugrian peoples. I am not arguing that is the dominant type of Poland, only that it is a true sub-racial type of some sort or another. Coon is not the only one that acknowledged its existence, he is simply the only one to name it Neo-Danubian. It shares some of the same components as the East-Baltic type, but is not the same. The East Baltic has an added UP, primarily Borreby or similar element, and in some areas a Corded component. The East Baltic type is found in northeastern Germany, northern Poland, the Baltic states, and parts of Finnland.

norda
Sunday, December 4th, 2005, 10:33 AM
If you look at pictures of Byelorussian women on "Russian Bride" websites you will see a number of women who have grey eyes and ash-blond or brown hair who are too infantile to be East-Baltics. They are what is often described as "Neo-Danubian". These features can also be seen among some people in neighboring parts of eastern Poland and the northern Ukraine, as well as occasionally among Slovaks, Slovenians, east-central Germans, and occasionally among other Slavic groups, Hungarians and Romanians. It is typical of the Karelians and more easterly Finno-Ugrian peoples. I am not arguing that is the dominant type of Poland, only that it is a true sub-racial type of some sort or another. Coon is not the only one that acknowledged its existence, he is simply the only one to name it Neo-Danubian. It shares some of the same components as the East-Baltic type, but is not the same. The East Baltic has an added UP, primarily Borreby or similar element, and in some areas a Corded component. The East Baltic type is found in northeastern Germany, northern Poland, the Baltic states, and parts of Finnland.

Can you post some examples?
or found among average people?

ca20000 pictures

Byelorussians from Mogilev
http://www.mogilev.net/gallery/

Poles from Central Poland

Mazovia
http://www.pielgrzymka.com/modules.php?name=coppermine&file=thumbnails&album=41
http://www.pielgrzymka.com/modules.php?name=coppermine&file=thumbnails&album=42
http://www.pielgrzymka.com/modules.php?name=coppermine&file=thumbnails&album=40
http://www.pielgrzymka.com/modules.php?name=coppermine&file=thumbnails&album=39
http://www.pielgrzymka.com/modules.php?name=coppermine&file=thumbnails&album=38
http://www.pielgrzymka.com/modules.php?name=coppermine&file=thumbnails&album=67
http://www.pielgrzymka.com/modules.php?name=coppermine&file=thumbnails&album=36
http://www.pielgrzymka.com/modules.php?name=coppermine&file=thumbnails&album=45
Kujawy
http://www.ckszdroj.com/galeria.htm


Poles from Podlasie (NE Poland)
http://www.baza.xtp.pl/pielgrzymka/2005_1.php
http://www.pielgrzymka.net.pl/2005_2.php
http://www.pielgrzymka.net.pl/2005_3.php

[ca700 pictures, use arrows to navigate]

Wielkopolska W.Poland
http://www.21.opoka.net.pl/zdjecia2004Greta.html
http://www.21.opoka.net.pl/zdjecia2004Adrian.html
http://www.21.opoka.net.pl/zdjecia.html

Triglav
Sunday, December 4th, 2005, 05:06 PM
These features can also be seen among some people in neighboring parts of eastern Poland and the northern Ukraine, as well as occasionally among Slovaks, Slovenians, east-central Germans, and occasionally among other Slavic groups, Hungarians and Romanians.

I really wonder where you saw those.

*Gorostan removes the blindfold he was wearing for the last 20 years*

Whoaaa, colours... :O

Väring
Sunday, December 4th, 2005, 06:54 PM
Hmm... Define small-grown, please...


Savolaxtypen. Rätt småvuxen (c. 166 cm.), huvudet svagt kortskalligt (BLI c. 81-82) men dess mer högt (HLI c. 77) (A I 80-85); ansiktet brett men ej stort; näsan kort och bred, mindre spetsig än hos föregående. Mest blond, fast håret väl ofta går i något mörkare cendré än hos föregående typ. Utbredning: öster om föregående inåt Ryssland, och söder ut mot Karpaterna.

The Savolax type. Rather small of stature (approximately 166 cm.), the head is weakly short-skulled (BLI approximately 81-82), but all the more high (HLI approximately 77) (FI 80-85); the face is broad but not big, the nose is short and broad, less sharp than the former. Mostly blonde, altough the hair often transcends into a somewhat darker ash-blonde than the former type. Distribution : east of the former towards Russia, and southwards towards the Carpathians.

Lundman, Bertil (1939). Nordens rastyper.

bittercreek
Monday, December 5th, 2005, 04:47 AM
Niilo Pesonen on The Savolax region


Pesonen's study on Savolax was published in 1937. For this study 595 men between the ages 25-49 and 376 women between the ages 20-49 had been studied. They were from all over Savolax from Kiuruvesi to Lappeenranta. Average height of men was 167,4cm and women 154,53cm. The tallest men (168,06cm avg) were found in the area consisting Joroinen and Mikkeli, the shortest were found south of this area in the Savonlinnna region (165,8cm). This region also had the shortest women (152,26cm) whereas the tallest women were found south of this area (155,78cm). The cephalic index of men averaged at 81,109 and it was largest in the areas of Kuopia and Mikkeli (81,281; 81,232). More than 3/4 were mesocephalic and brachycephalic (both 39,2%). The average cephalic index of women was 81,504

Out of men 44,5% had a wide-face, medium-faced 21,6%. The widest faces were found in Southern Savolax and around the Kuopio region. The most narrow faces were found in the Mikkeli region (half of the measured induviduals). Narrow noses were found among half of the men and extremely narrow noses among 10%. In women the numbers of narrow noses were even higher (59,1%, 10,3%) The population of the Savolax region was mainly blond. Around 87% of men had light-eyes, brown eyes were found among 9%. Again there were more brown-eyes among the women (17,4%) However brown-eyed men were found in Northern Savolax more often than normally (23,1%) Extremely blond hair was rare among men (3,2%), however dark-blond hair was found in 46,2%. Very dark hair was found in 20% of men. Over half of the measured women had brown or darker toned hair.

As in Satakunta, the tallest induviduals of the Savolax region were not the blondest. However shorter men were on average a bit darker than tall men. Tall women more often had brown eyes than short women (40% and 20%). The same goes for hair colour. Brown hair was more common among tall induviduals. The dolichocephalic men were more often brown-eyed than other groups, however dark hair was more frequent among those who were brachycephalic (18,2%). Dark-brown or brown was found among 45% of the brachycephalic induviduals. The rest mainly had blond/light hair (half of the measured induviduals). Majority of men had light coloured eyes. It was noted that the short, brachycephalic induviduals couldn't have gotten their height and short skull through Sami-influence because of blondism. Among women brachycephalics more often seemed to have brown eyes. However the small statured people with brown eyes and dark hair might indeed be a Sami-trait, however these features were not a frequent phenomenon among the induviduals. However dark hair was more common than expected among tall men with dolichocephalic skulls, which lead the research to conclude that other "dark" influence was present and it was not Lapponoid.


Pesonen paid a lot of (too much perhaps) attention on pigmentation. I wonder what his idea of the other "dark influence" was. :scratch: I believe the reason he rules out Sami-influence was the lack of Sami-characteristics in dark induviduals (height and facial features). Sorry, going OT.