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ike
Sunday, December 21st, 2003, 04:56 PM
Where are the Atlanto-Meds from? in witch contries where can we see the majority of this race?

Stríbog
Sunday, December 21st, 2003, 09:57 PM
Where are the Atlanto-Meds from? in witch contries where can we see the majority of this race?

I think they are just UP-derived variants with Brünn affiliation, more or less "native" to western Europe relative to the later groups. They are most visible in Wales, Ireland, Spain, and parts of western France.

hantendon
Monday, December 22nd, 2003, 06:37 AM
Where are the Atlanto-Meds from? in witch contries where can we see the majority of this race?



A very broad generalized term that encompasses groups all the way from the Atlantic Ocean (British Isles, Ireland, even Western Scandanavia) to the Eastern Mediterannean. Tall, very dolicocephalic, rugged features, basically a tall rugged mediterannean. Found in the majority in the following countries:

Greece, maybe Ukraine, Bulgaria, Palestine, Iraq, Algeria, Morrocco, Libya.

Its found in Northern Western Europe but never form a majority in any significant area, let alone a country. My feeling is that these Atlanto Mediteranneans are maybe Anglo-Saxon and Brunn mixes unrelated to the other Atlanto-Meds.

Vetinari
Monday, December 22nd, 2003, 02:40 PM
A very broad generalized term that encompasses groups all the way from the Atlantic Ocean (British Isles, Ireland, even Western Scandanavia) to the Eastern Mediterannean. Tall, very dolicocephalic, rugged features, basically a tall rugged mediterannean. Found in the majority in the following countries:

Greece, maybe Ukraine, Bulgaria, Palestine, Iraq, Algeria, Morrocco, Libya.

Its found in Northern Western Europe but never form a majority in any significant area, let alone a country. My feeling is that these Atlanto Mediteranneans are maybe Anglo-Saxon and Brunn mixes unrelated to the other Atlanto-Meds.

One possible explanation for the presence of Atlanto-Meds in Ireland and western Britain could be mitochondrial DNA haplogroup J. This particular mtDNA haplogroup was introduced into Europe from the Middle East during the Neolithic and is relatively common in Ireland and western Britain.

Awar
Monday, December 22nd, 2003, 03:24 PM
I think that the most Atlanto-Meds are in Serbia and Croatia, in fact, they're the only Meds here, there is a surprising lack of short east-Meds in ex-Yugoslavia, while there is an abundance of such types in Bulgaria and Greece.

Vojvoda
Monday, December 22nd, 2003, 03:46 PM
I think that the most Atlanto-Meds are in Serbia and Croatia, in fact, they're the only Meds here, there is a surprising lack of short east-Meds in ex-Yugoslavia, while there is an abundance of such types in Bulgaria and Greece.

Hm, yeah I've been to Sofija and the people I've seen are shorter than your average "Jugosloven".

Tore
Monday, December 22nd, 2003, 07:30 PM
One possible explanation for the presence of Atlanto-Meds in Ireland and western Britain could be mitochondrial DNA haplogroup J. This particular mtDNA haplogroup was introduced into Europe from the Middle East during the Neolithic and is relatively common in Ireland and western Britain.

Sure, this is a possibility, yet the frequency of J is only slighly higher in Britain than elsewhere in Northern Europe.

Maternal Haplogroup J

Bulgaria/Turkey 14.7%
Western Isles/Isles of Skye 14.64%
England/Wales 14.45%
Scotland 14.44%
Iceland 14.31%
Ireland 14.06%
Scandinavia 10.24%
France/Italy 6.04%
Spain/Portugal 5.96%

http://www.journals.uchicago.edu/AJ...146/002146.html

It could very well be that J* is reflective of a Mediterranean migration to Britain.

Frequency of J (*)

Ireland 11.72 %
England/Wales 10.72%
Scotland 8.64%
Iceland 6.85%
Turkey/Bulgaria 5.88%
Spain/Portugal 3.69%
France/Italy 2.42%

However, I would doubt that J* is Atlanto-Mediterranean for several reasons. The J haplogroup originated in the Middle East relatively recently (~10 000 Y.B.P), and therefore, it is unlikely that this haplogroup is associated with the taller, more robust Mediterranean found laregly in Britain/Ireland (i.e the "Atlanto-Med"), but rather, with a smaller, gracilized Mediterranean type which, although still found in Britiain/Ireland to varying degrees, is of lesser frequency than the Atantlo-Mediterranean.

The Atlanto-Mediterranean is likely a Cro-Magnoid derivative (thus deriving from the M9 lineage), sharing a closer relation to the Brunn type, and therefore its "marker" would be Paleolithic Hg 1, and not Neolithic J.

Vetinari
Monday, December 22nd, 2003, 07:44 PM
The Atlanto-Mediterranean is likely a Cro-Magnoid derivative (thus deriving from the M9 lineage), sharing a closer relation to the Brunn type, and therefore its "marker" would be Paleolithic Hg 1, and not Neolithic J.

Yes, they would most likely be Y-chromosome Haplogroup 1 (i.e. R1b), but that would not prevent them from having the mtDNA Haplogroup J genetic marker as well.

goidelicwarrior
Monday, February 2nd, 2004, 04:04 PM
Where are the Atlanto-Meds from? in witch contries where can we see the majority of this race? I think I might be AM.. check out my pic in racial gathering.. ;)

ike
Tuesday, May 18th, 2004, 12:36 AM
Again the Atlanto-med issue:
So after all, are the Atlanto-meds a kind of nordic race, or of nordic influence; or just a single race with no kind of conection with nordic? I'm not totally cleared in this matter... Thanks

Awar
Tuesday, May 18th, 2004, 12:52 AM
I think the Atlanto-Meds are derived from the Palaeolithic population that inhabited Spain. As the ice from the last Ice-Age began to retreat, these people began migrating and populating western Europe and the British Isles, and parts of central Europe.

This would explain the close genetic relation between most peoples from Britain, Western Europe, Iberia etc.

morfrain_encilgar
Tuesday, May 18th, 2004, 01:05 AM
Again the Atlanto-med issue:
So after all, are the Atlanto-meds a kind of nordic race, or of nordic influence; or just a single race with no kind of conection with nordic? I'm not totally cleared in this matter... Thanks

Although they are with local racial influence, the distribution of the Atlantomeds in north-western and central Europe corresponds with certain Mesolithic tool industries of Eurpoe, the Azilian and the Tardenoisian. This race descends from a Mediterranid migration from the south. This migration brought the increased use of microliths, associated with the bow and arrow.

morfrain_encilgar
Tuesday, May 18th, 2004, 01:13 AM
I think the Atlanto-Meds are derived from the Palaeolithic population that inhabited Spain.

Youre right, but you would have been more exact if you had said the Mesolithic rather than the Paleolithic, because the end of the last glaciation, was the start of the Mesolithic.

The Azilian emerged in Spain and Southern France, as a mixture between the Magdalenian and the expanding Capsian.

Awar
Tuesday, May 18th, 2004, 01:14 AM
Yes, you're right... I'm still not well acquainted with this terminology.

Frans_Jozef
Tuesday, May 18th, 2004, 01:30 AM
Although with local racial influence, the distribution of the Atlantomeds in north-western and central Europe corresponds with certain Mesolithic tool industries of Eurpoe, the Azilian and the Tardenoisian. This race descends from a Mediterranid migration from the south. This migration brought the increased use of microliths, associated with the bow and arrow.

The Azilian techno-complex is a poorer and less polished, generally far inferior remnant of the Magdalénians: rooted in Europe, thus, in contrast to the Capsians and Natufians of the Levantine Epipaleolithic.
The eponymous site is located at the Pyrenees.
Occitania and Liguria from the Mesolithic into the Early Neolithic is vastly racial stable.
Traditionally is thought that the Cardials were seafaring Atlanto-Mediterreneans but a village site in South France brought doubt this generally accepted theory:

http://www.geocities.com/jim_bowery/Atlantis.html

Interestingly the Mesolithics in Occitania belonged to a subrace close to the Atlanto-Mediterrenean race , albeit slighter finer-build.

morfrain_encilgar
Tuesday, May 18th, 2004, 01:45 AM
The Azilian techno-complex is a poorer and less polished, generally far inferior remnant of the Magdalénians: rooted in Europe, thus, in contrast to the Capsians and Natufians of the Levantine Epipaleolithic.
The eponymous site is located at the Pyrenees.

But the use of microliths in Europe, was introduced by Capsians. The Azilian arose in contact between the two industries.

Frans_Jozef
Tuesday, May 18th, 2004, 02:22 AM
But the use of microliths in Europe, was introduced by Capsians. The Azilian arose in contact between the two industries.

Maybe, some sources speak of southern influences degrading in later stages by greater use of bone material and rapid regionalisation of this industry.

Here is a photo with a collection of skulls pertaining to the Azilians, also harpoons and lettered pebbles and a distribution map(icl. the Tardenoisin):

http://geology.cwru.edu/~huwig/catalog/slides/758.H.1.jpg

http://geology.cwru.edu/~huwig/catalog/slides/756.J.2.jpg

http://geology.cwru.edu/~huwig/catalog/slides/756.J.1.jpg

morfrain_encilgar
Tuesday, May 18th, 2004, 03:34 AM
Maybe, some sources speak of southern influences degrading in later stages by greater use of bone material and rapid regionalisation of this industry.

Most of those Azilians are clearly Meds, as are the Capsians.

Frans_Jozef
Tuesday, May 18th, 2004, 12:23 PM
Most of those Azilians are clearly Meds, as are the Capsians.

I never questioned this, although there are Alpinoid types mixed with archaic-looking, perhaps pre-Nordics involved, and not all Mediterrenians are interchangeable, some branches are native to Europe(a line descending from Chancelade-Laugerie).

Frans_Jozef
Tuesday, May 18th, 2004, 12:56 PM
But the use of microliths in Europe, was introduced by Capsians. The Azilian arose in contact between the two industries.

The Magdalénians dispensed to a certain degree lithic material for manufacturing bone kits.
They hunted reindeers and horses over great distances, they show a remarkeable fitness to svelte mobility and wander treks over vast territories. From the moment the glaciers retreated, they took full advantage of the free coming lands to migrate due north, covering Great Brittain, Germany and the North European Plain.
Anyway, the wide distribution of the Magdalénian tribes didn't inhibite them to maintain long distance contacts and exchanges(e.g. prestige gifts, cult objects...).

The Azilians continued the traditions of their ancestors.

Microliths were important insofar it granted greater control and manipulation of the environment, small game replaced megafauna that by the cataclysms of the Younger Dryas was lead to extinction in Europe.
It suited a survival strategy, induced a shift in subsistence and new resources came in their scope.
Microliths tells us more than anything else on socio-economic problems in that era.

As a side note, the beginnings of microliths are now searched in the Iberomaurisians, though the Capsians elaborated the technique.
The origin of the Magdalénians is a bit clouded in mystery, some regard it as a sudden transformation from Gravettian, others hint that it's initial distribution overlaps the Solustréan.
The Solustréans disappeared all the sudden, one theory says they crossed the Atlantic Ocean, very much like the travel mode of Eskimos, along the board of glaciers, and landed in North America, where they would give rise to the Clovis culture.
Others could have remained closer to home.
Tanged and barbed pressure-flaked points of the North African Atherian have been found in Solustréan deposits.
Why wouldn't they dare to seek refuge in North Africa and take possession of the Atherian industry?
Maybe this is the source of the Iberomaurisians....SW European colonizers.

morfrain_encilgar
Tuesday, May 18th, 2004, 04:13 PM
I never questioned this, although there are Alpinoid types mixed with archaic-looking, perhaps pre-Nordics involved, and not all Mediterrenians are interchangeable, some branches are native to Europe(a line descending from Chancelade-Laugerie).

Which Meds are you referring to?

morfrain_encilgar
Tuesday, May 18th, 2004, 04:23 PM
Microliths were important insofar it granted greater control and manipulation of the environment, small game replaced megafauna that by the cataclysms of the Younger Dryas was lead to extinction in Europe.
It suited a survival strategy, induced a shift in subsistence and new resources came in their scope.
Microliths tells us more than anything else on socio-economic problems in that era.

But by being pre-adapted to the new environmrnt by technology, the Capsians would have had the advantage at expanding. They would have migrated north and were able to assimilate into the Magdalenians. This is what created the Azilian.


As a side note, the beginnings of microliths are now searched in the Iberomaurisians, though the Capsians elaborated the technique.

This makes sense since earlier populatoins seem to have contributed into the Capsians.


The origin of the Magdalénians is a bit clouded in mystery, some regard it as a sudden transformation from Gravettian, others hint that it's initial distribution overlaps the Solustréan.
The Solustréans disappeared all the sudden, one theory says they crossed the Atlantic Ocean, very much like the travel mode of Eskimos, along the board of glaciers, and landed in North America, where they would give rise to the Clovis culture.
Others could have remained closer to home.
Tanged and barbed pressure-flaked points of the North African Atherian have been found in Solustréan deposits.
Why wouldn't they dare to seek refuge in North Africa and take possession of the Atherian industry?
Maybe this is the source of the Iberomaurisians....SW European colonizers.

The Aterian disappeared early in North Africa, but it did cross into Iberia. Its unknown what happened to this industry, but even now, a link between the Solutrean and the Aterian is not seen as very unlikely.

Frans_Jozef
Tuesday, May 18th, 2004, 11:45 PM
But by being pre-adapted to the new environmrnt by technology, the Capsians would have had the advantage at expanding. They would have migrated north and were able to assimilate into the Magdalenians. This is what created the Azilian.

Crossing the Street of Gibraltar and remaining stuck in Iberia is not really a big untertaking and maybe some residual racial memory lingered in their mind, the need to return to their point of origin.
Eventually, they passed on more their techniques and products of workmanship over to the natives than anything else.



This makes sense since earlier populatoins seem to have contributed into the Capsians.

Coon states that the Neolithic population of North Africa beared more resemblance to Téviec and Mugem than with e.g. the Nile Delta people.
The wanderlust of Solustréans and Magdalénians knowing, it's time to contemplate the obscured waves of UP and Mesolithic Europeans due south.



The Aterian disappeared early in North Africa, but it did cross into Iberia. Its unknown what happened to this industry, but even now, a link between the Solutrean and the Aterian is not seen as very unlikely.

They mixed with Near Eastern UP(Coon) and produced the Mechtoid race and the Afalou type of Brachycephals(Coon, Hooton).
If there is indeed a physical-genic link between Solustréans and Aterians, this would help to explain the presence of brachycephalic, low-broad-faced types in the Solustréan stock.
Sadly, I dont have any data available nor photos to compare them with the Mechta-Afalou people.
Would it be totally doubtful to assume that the Iberomaurisians preserved their ancestral traits?

Frans_Jozef
Tuesday, May 18th, 2004, 11:48 PM
Which Meds are you referring to?

To quote the classic names: Ibero-Insulars, Berids, some "Atlanto-Mediterreneans" and what Agrippa calls Nordicomediterranids.

Not Levantines, Magrebids, and so forth.

morfrain_encilgar
Wednesday, May 19th, 2004, 12:55 AM
Coon states that the Neolithic population of North Africa beared more resemblance to Téviec and Mugem than with e.g. the Nile Delta people.The wanderlust of Solustréans and Magdalénians knowing, it's time to contemplate the obscured waves of UP and Mesolithic Europeans due south.

I wouldnt be surprised by that. If its true, the "Capsian" maternal lineage would have appeared around the same time as the true Capsian racial migration from Iberia. Is there archeological evidence for a second immigration into the Maghreb?

[quote]If there is indeed a physical-genic link between Solustréans and Aterians, this would help to explain the presence of brachycephalic, low-broad-faced types in the Solustréan stock.
Sadly, I dont have any data available nor photos to compare them with the Mechta-Afalou people.

Are you referring to Solutreans or Aterians when you say you have no photographs of them to compare?

Frans_Jozef
Friday, May 21st, 2004, 10:45 PM
The Capsians must have send out prospecting missions before they ever engaged to break away for Europe or their ancestry somehow is linked with Europe.
It's alerting that they likely entered Iberia along the Atlantic coast, it shows familiarity with the "terrain", the Iberian Atlantic coast is tricky due its difficult tidal waters, it acquires native seamanship and use of appropiate boat build.

Mesolithic living is grounded in exploiting the known environment and making optimal use of the avaliable resources, it derives from exhaustive knowledge of the local habitat and observing, studying and controlling the resource distribution(cfr. Stephen J.Mithen's chapter on the Mesolithic Age, in Prehistoric Europe.An Illustrated History).

John Gray regards hunter-gathering communities as highly mobile, but "their life does not require continious movement into new territory. Their survival depends on knowing a local milieu down to its last details. Farming multiplies human numbers. It thereby compels farmers to expand the land they work.
Farming and the search for new lands go together."(Straw Dogs. Thoughts on humans and other animals).

Interestingly, H-G communities live according a pattern of fusion and fission.
The community gather together in the winter months on the lowlands and seperate in small bands during the Summer, scattering over the uplands.
It's a seasonal movement, however since it concerns the community as a whole one could it describe as seasonal and communal, although the latter is reserved for the Neolithic farming columns(cfr. founding fathers, etc...).
Yet in reality, a sharp division cant be drawned as explained here above.
The Cardials or Impressed Ceramic People of the Early Neolithic are also characterized by seasonal and communal movement, and their susbsistence relied still for a greap part on a riparian diet and hunting small game but also bears and deers.

Atlanto-med, you once dropped the concept of paraneolithic in view of the mixed subsistence culture of the Capsians, could you tell us more what this term precisely involves and what this implies about the introduction of a neolithic subsistence culture reaching out in Europe from its southwestern corner.