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Austrvegr
Wednesday, September 27th, 2006, 03:57 PM
Approximate extent of the earliest Russian state in the 8th century

http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d169/-aaabbb-/Gardariki/map69.jpg

Ladoga (Aldeigjuborg in Old Norse), founded in the mid-8th century on the river Volkhov close to the lake Ladoga, was the earliest Russian capital

Barrows of Rurikid kings

http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d169/-aaabbb-/Gardariki/ladogaursopki.jpg

Rurik's palace, built around 894, has been unearthed in Ladoga. This is what remains of it

http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d169/-aaabbb-/Gardariki/ladogapalacefloor.jpg

This is what it looked like

http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d169/-aaabbb-/Gardariki/ladogapalace2.jpg

Scandinavian presence is Ladoga is signalled by stave houses

http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d169/-aaabbb-/Gardariki/ladogah2_en.jpg

And by artefacts like these

http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d169/-aaabbb-/Gardariki/ladogaodin.jpg

http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d169/-aaabbb-/Gardariki/gnezdovosilvdec.jpg

Austrvegr
Wednesday, September 27th, 2006, 04:02 PM
Later the capital was moved up the Volkhov to Novgorod (Holmgard in Old Norse), near the lake Ilmen

http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d169/-aaabbb-/Gardariki/novgorod111168.jpg

http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d169/-aaabbb-/Gardariki/novgorod111159.jpg

http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d169/-aaabbb-/Gardariki/novgorod111158.jpg

http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d169/-aaabbb-/Gardariki/novgkhoromy2.jpg

http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d169/-aaabbb-/Gardariki/novgkhoromy1.jpg

Theudiskaz
Wednesday, September 27th, 2006, 04:06 PM
Looks like it was one of the nicest cities of the Middle Ages.:thumbup

Austrvegr
Wednesday, September 27th, 2006, 04:08 PM
Russians of the Viking age

http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d169/-aaabbb-/Gardariki/kost01.jpg



Russian musical instruments

http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d169/-aaabbb-/Gardariki/mus00.jpg



The favorite Russian musical instrument was the gusli, similar to the Germanic lyre. Here is a genuine Russian gusli of the mid-11th century bearing the name of its owner, Slovisha

http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d169/-aaabbb-/Gardariki/mus03.jpg



Modern gusli player

http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d169/-aaabbb-/Gardariki/gusli_m.jpg

Austrvegr
Wednesday, September 27th, 2006, 04:16 PM
Russian warriors of the Viking Age (reconstructions from burials)

http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d169/-aaabbb-/Gardariki/warknightrus7.jpghttp://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d169/-aaabbb-/Gardariki/warknightrus9.jpg


http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d169/-aaabbb-/Gardariki/warknightrusskie_dospehi7.jpg


http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d169/-aaabbb-/Gardariki/vik04.jpg


Russians fighting Khazars (the war lasted with changing fortunes for about 1.5 centuries to finally result in the destruction of the Judeo-Khazar Empire by Russians in the 960s)

http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d169/-aaabbb-/Gardariki/warknightbitva_rusov_s_hazarami.jpg

sunwheel_cro
Thursday, September 28th, 2006, 11:02 AM
Russian musical instruments

http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d169/-aaabbb-/Gardariki/mus00.jpg



The favorite Russian musical instrument was the gusli, similar to the Germanic lyre. Here is a genuine Russian gusli of the mid-11th century bearing the name of its owner, Slovisha

http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d169/-aaabbb-/Gardariki/mus03.jpg



Modern gusli player

http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d169/-aaabbb-/Gardariki/gusli_m.jpg[/QUOTE]


Gusli is also Croatian folk instrument, especialy from Dalmatia. They are called on Croatian "Gusle" :thumbup

Carl
Thursday, September 28th, 2006, 12:45 PM
I have often wondered about this move into the south and to see these pictures is impressive.
carl

Crow
Thursday, September 28th, 2006, 07:28 PM
Serbian Gusle

http://www.arikah.net/commons/en/thumb/0/01/150px-Serbian_Gusle.jpg

Gusle

http://www.arikah.net/encyclopedia/Gusle

The gusle or gusla (Bulgarian: Гусла, Serbian: Гусле, Croatian: Gusle) is a single-stringed instrument used in the Balkans and on the Dinarides area. This instrument should not be confused with the Russian Gusli.

Gusle are most typically used to accompany the voice of a player (called a guslar) when telling and/or singing an epic story or legend, similar to the use of a guitar in the West.

The gusle have either one string (in Serbia, Montenegro, Bosnia, Herzegovina, and Zagora in Croatia) or two strings (in Bosanska Krajina and in Lika- former Serb Krajina), made of thirty horsehairs. A bow is pulled over the string (made of horsetail), creating a dramatic and sharp sound, very expressive and rather difficult to master. The gusle consists of a wooden sound box covered with an animal skin and a neck with a beautifully carved head. They are held between the legs with the long neck supported on one thigh.

http://content.answers.com/main/content/wp/en-commons/thumb/6/6e/180px-Filip_Visnjic_guslar.jpg

Filip Višnjić, (1767-1834) Serbian blind guslar


Serbian Gusle

The Serbian gusle (pluralia tantum) has one or two strings and is usually made of maple wood.

Guslars (singers) should be individuals capable of committing to memory long narrative texts about heroes and events from the distant past and to improvising new ones in the decasyllable metre (deseterac).

The gusle has played an important role in the history of Serbian epic poetry because the guslar national singers passed on national poems in this way for centuries, until the poems were recorded in writing. Most of their songs are about the era of Ottoman Turkish rule and struggle for independence. With the efforts of Vuk Stefanovic Karadzic many of these ballads were collected and preserved early in the nineteenth century.


Serbian epic poetry

Wikipedia...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serbian_epic_poetry

Songs of Serbian epic poetry rarely, if ever, rhyme, but they are easy to remember as each line has exactly ten syllables and caesura after fourth syllable. An older form, called Bugarshtica, exists, which has fifteen to sixteen syllables. Songs could be recited, but traditionally they are sung along musical instrument called Gusle.

Structure

Their structure contains some repeating formulas ("Dear God, a big miracle", "years of days", "writes a tiny letter", "they have fought till summer day noon") and numbers; number three is used to such extremes that, for example, if something breaks, it always "breaks into three halves". Longer songs can have more than five hundred lines.

Corpus

The corpus of Serbian epic poetry is divided into cycles:
*Pre-Kosovo cycle - songs about events that predate the Battle of Kosovo
**Cycle of Marko Kraljevic
**(more)
*Kosovo cycle - songs about events that happened just before and after Battle of Kosovo (no song covers the battle itself)
*Post-Kosovo cycle - songs about more recent events
**Cycle of Hajduks and Uskoks- song about them
**Songs about uprising 1804-1815
**(more)

Songs that sing about historical events depict them with varying degrees of accuracy.

http://www.njegos.org/heritage/guslari.jpg

Also note, traditional Serbian highlander’s caps from Dinaric regions: Dalmatia, Lika, Bosnia, Herzegovina, Montenegro.


Now, try to imagine old song from Serbian epic poetry followed by sounds of GUSLE. Powerfull stuff, believe me...


The Maiden of Kossovo

Early rose the maiden of Kossovo,
Early rose she on a Sunday morning,
Rose before the brilliant sun had risen.
She has rolled the white sleeves of her robe back,
Rolled them back up to her soft white elbows;
On her shoulders, fair white bread she carries,
In her hands two shining golden goblets,
In one goblet she has poured fresh water,
And has poured good red wine in the other.
Then she seeks the wide plain of Kossovo,
Seeks the noble Prince’s place of meeting,
Wanders there amongst the bleeding heroes.
When she finds one living midst the wounded
Then she laves him with the cooling water,
Gives him, sacramentally, the red wine,
Pledges with her fair white bread the hero.

Fate at last has led her wand’ring footsteps
Unto Pavle Orlovitch, the hero,
Who has borne the Prince’s battle-standard.
From his gaping wounds the blood is streaming,
His right hand and his left foot are severed--
And the hero’s ribs are crushed and broken,
But he lingers still amongst the living.
From the pools of blood she drags his body
And she laves him with the cooling water,
Red wine, sacramentally, she gives him,
Pledges then with fair white bread the hero.

When at length his heart revives within him,
Thus speaks Pavle Orlovitch, the hero:
“Oh dear sister, Maiden of Kossovo,
What great need compels thee here to wander,
Thou, so young, amongst the wounded heroes?
What dost thou upon the field of battle?
Dost thou seek a brother’s son, or brother,
Dost thous seek perchance an aged father?”
Answered him the Maiden of Kossovo:
“Oh dear brother! Oh thou unknown warrior!
None of my own race am I now seeking,
Not a brother’s son nor yet a brother,
Neither do I seek an agéd father.
Wast thou present, oh thou unknown warrior;
When for three whole weeks to all his army
Prince Lazar the Sacrament was giving
By the hands of thirty holy fathers,
In the splendid church of Samodreha?
When Lazar and all the Serbian army
There the Holy Sacrament have taken,
Three Voyvodas last of all did enter:
First of them was Milosh, the great warrior,
Ivan Kossanchich was close behind him,
And the third, Toplitza Milan, followed.

“I by chance stood then within the doorway
When there passed young Milosh, the great warrior,
In the whole world no more splendid hero;
On the ground his clanking sabre trailing,
Silken cap with proudly waving feathers,
Many-coloured mantle on his shoulders
And around his neck a silken kerchief.
Then he gazes round and looks upon me,
He takes off his many-coloured mantle,
Takes it off, and gives it to me, saying:--
‘Here, oh Maiden, is my coloured mantle,
By it thou wilt keep me in remembrance,
By this mantle shall my name live with thee.
Now, dear Maid, must I go forth and perish
There where camps the noble Prince’s army;
Pray to God for me, dear Maid, my sister,
That I may come back again in safety.
And that all good fortune may attend thee
I will marry thee to my friend Milan,
Him whom God has given me as brother,
My friend Milan who is my sworn brother.
In God’s name and good Saint John’s, I promise
I will be a groomsman at they wedding.’

“Ivan Kossanchitch was close behind him,
In the whole world no more splendid hero;
On the ground his clanking sabre trailing,
Silken cap with proudly waving feathers,
Many-coloured mantle on his shoulders
And around his neck a silken kerchief,
On his hand a golden ring is shining.
Then he gazes round and looks upon me,
Takes the golden ring from off his finger,
Takes it off and gives it to me, saying:--
‘Here hast thou my ring of gold, oh Maiden,
By it thou wilt have me in remembrance,
By this gold ring shall my name live with thee.
Now, dear maid, must I go forth to perish
There where camps the noble Prince’s army;
Pray to God for me, dear Maid, my sister,
That I may come back again in safety.
And that all good fortune may attend thee
I will marry thee to my friend Milan,
Him whom God has given me as brother,
My friend Milan who is my sworn brother.
In God’s name and good Saint John’s, I promise
I myself will give thee to the bridegroom.’

“Then Toplitza Milan follows after,
In the whole world no more splendid hero;
On the ground his clanking sabre trailing,
Silken cap with proudly waving feathers,
Many-coloured mantle on his shoulders
And around his neck a silken kerchief,
On his hand a golden ring is shining
And upon his arm a golden bracelet.
Then he gazes round and looks upon me,
From his arm he takes the golden bracelet,
Takes it off and gives it to me, saying:--
‘Here, oh Maiden, is my golden bracelet,
By it thou wilt have me in remembrance,
By this gold ring shall my name live with thee.
Now, dear maid, must I go forth to perish
There where camps the noble Prince’s army;
Pray to God for me, dear soul, my darling,
That I may come back again in safety;
Then, dear Maid, that good luck may attend thee,
I will take thee for my true belovéd.’

“And then went away these mighty leaders,
And to-day I seek them here, oh brother,
Seek them here, upon the field of battle!”

Pavle Orlovitch then makes her answer:
“Oh dear sister, Maiden of Kossovo,
Dost thou see, dear soul, those battle-lances
Where they lie most thickly piled together?
There has flowed the life-blood of the heroes;
To the stirrups of the faithful horses,
To the stirrups and the girths it mounted,
Mounted to the heroes’ silken girdles,
And the three have fallen there together.
Now return thee to thy fair white castle
Lest thy skirts and sleeves with blood be spattered.”

To the hero’s words the maiden listens,
Down her white face are the fast tears falling;
She returns then to her fair white castle.
From her white throat pour her lamentations:
“Woe is me, what fate I bear within me,
I but touch the young and tender sapling
And the fair green pine must surely wither.”


Modern Serbian Epic Poetry

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serbian_epic_poetry

Serbian epic poetry is being made even today in this same form. Of course, modern songs sing about modern events and people, such as Kosovo war or Radovan Karadzic and Ratko Mladic. Some modern songs are published in books or recorded, and under copyright, but some are in public domain, and modified by subsequent authors just like old ones. There are new songs that mimic Serbian epic poetry, but are humorous and not epic in nature; these are also circulating around with no known author.

One example:

http://i70.photobucket.com/albums/i93/njegovan1/Ratkosadgavidissadganevidis.gif
Now you see me and, then you don`t. Oh, there you are, Carla darling. Wait, I coming...

I will give you that on my Slavicized English...

[Old Karla had a dream,
That Serb Ratko f*** her,
That she b*** to Ratko.

Tribunal of Hague has be demolish,
because Karla lost her mind.
And Serbian people can`t understand,
why old granny,
looks for Serbian general.]

NOTE: It`s about Carla Del Ponte from Hague.

On Serbian (Croats would undersatnd too, because they speak Serbian:) ):

San usnila Karla stara,
Da je Srbin Ratko kara,
I da Ratku ona pusi.

Tribunal se haski rusi,
Hoce Karla da poludi,
A srpski se narod cudi,
Sto toliko baba stara,
Trazi srpskog Djenerala.

sunwheel_cro
Thursday, September 28th, 2006, 08:05 PM
[QUOTE=Crow;553992]


http://www.njegos.org/heritage/guslari.jpg

Also note, traditional Serbian highlander’s caps from Dinaric regions: Dalmatia, Lika, Bosnia, Herzegovina, Montenegro.


Dalmatia , Lika, Herzegovina iz Croatian populated and Croatian history territory:-O , it is not Serbian highlanders :thumbdown

East Herzegovina is Serbian, and Montenegrians will not agree on this forum, if you call them Serbs;)

Crow
Friday, September 29th, 2006, 10:53 PM
[QUOTE=Crow;553992]


http://www.njegos.org/heritage/guslari.jpg

Also note, traditional Serbian highlander’s caps from Dinaric regions: Dalmatia, Lika, Bosnia, Herzegovina, Montenegro.


Dalmatia , Lika, Herzegovina iz Croatian populated and Croatian history territory:-O , it is not Serbian highlanders :thumbdown

East Herzegovina is Serbian, and Montenegrians will not agree on this forum, if you call them Serbs;)
That picture is about Serbs and Montenegrins are Serbs.

Most of Dalmatians, Herzegovina, Lika and Dubrovnik people are Serbs in their origin. Istrians were Slovenians in past.

But, it is another question if somebody because of all sorts of reasons doesn’t want to be a Serb or Slovenian. I will elaborate that for ladies and gentlemens of SKADI.

True Croats are only Croats from KAJKAVSKI speaking region. It is possible that even those aren’t but, let’s say that science (or politics) didn’t say its final word on that, so let`s not speculate. Most of other Croats of today`s Croatia (Dubrovnik, Dalmatia, Lika, Banija, Kordun, Slavonia, Baranja) originate from old Catholic Serbs and Orthodox Serbs forcible converted to Catholics and then declared as Croats. Those who stayed Orthodox, were erased in mass genocide in 1941-1945 and in ethnic cleansing in 1991-1995. Croatia was never punished, from international community for killing more then 700.000 Serbs in brutal massacres during WWII.

Fact is that Serbian nation decline and suffers because of constant Western (German/Austrian/Hungarian in past, if we speak openly) and Islamic (Arab, Turk) pressure.

So, Serbs and Serbia as key Serbian state are almost completely prevented and disabled to do anything about processes witch destruct Serbian nation in last 150 years.


Serbs accepted and supported creation of Yugoslavia. That was compromise. Serbs accepted Yugoslavia because they wanted to support other South Slavs on their way to salvation from foreign rule. That would be impossible if Serbs accepted only Serbian territories in today’s Bosnia and Croatia, which was BTW offered by Great Powers. That way, Slovenia and Croatia (Zagreb, Krizevci and Varazdin) were saved for Slavic world. In Yugoslavia, all Balkan Serbs lived in one country and that was enough for them. Serbs were turned to the higher goal- to future unity of all Slavs.

Now, Yugoslavia is canceled and not by Serbs. Old balance is destroyed.

Even now, compromise between Croats and Serbs is possible. Serbs, in extreme situation can’t do anything for their taken and stolen territories and last hope for Serbian people and intellectuals is that Croats accept to share with us, that what was Serbian in past.

Serbs don`t have anything against Croatian independent path. No! Just, for peace Croats need to stop stealing and negate Serbian: past, culture, language, territories and people. Serbs and Croats must learn to share past, on behalf of their future.

Serbs are doomed without both parts of their culture- Orthodox and Catholic. Idea about re-union of Christianity and Slavic unity is ultimate dream of Serbian nation.

Germanics and Europe; Vatican and Moscow Patriarhate could support just Serbian demands, at least that, as act of mercy for people which give that much to White Rose. As, famous Serb- Nikola Tesla, inventor and scientist said:

http://www.serbnatlfed.org/Archives/...opeanyears.htm

``Hardly is there a nation which has met with a sadder fate than the Serbians. From the height of its splendour, when the empire embraced almost the entire northern part of the Balkan peninsula, and a large portion of what is now Austria, the Serbian nation was plunged into abject slavery, after the fateful battle of 1389 at the Kosovo Polje, against the overwhelming Asian hordes. Europe can never repay the great debt it owes to the Serbians for checking, by the sacrifice of their liberty, that barbarous influx.``


On the end, there is possiblity that with process of democratization of Croatian society- we can expect that many Catholic Serbs start to demand their national rights and on the end unity with Serbia and Montenegro.


Fact is also that crucial moment for won of the Montenegrin secessionist movement on referendum (held few month ago) were Muslim votes from Albanian regions (not only their, but without them secession would failed).


There is link for picture that I presented (try! just right click on the picture and then properties).

http://www.njegos.org/heritage/guslari.jpg

On the link, you can notice word/name `njegos`. We know who was Njegos. Don’t we?

In case that somebody doesn’t know, I will present some well known facts...


SERB LAND OF MONTENEGRO - HISTORY OF MONTENEGRO AS IT IS

http://www.njegos.org/petrovics/petrovics.htm


PETROVIC NJEGOS DYNASTY
1697-1918
SERB PATRIOTS

Danilo Petrovic Njegos (1697-1735)
Born in 1670. Metropolitan and ruler of Montenegro. The founder of the Petrovic Njegos dynasty. In the text written on the manuscript gospel, his gift to Serb Patriarchate of Pec, in 1732, Danilo proudly expressed himself as DANIL NJEGOS, THE BISHOP OF CETINJE, THE LEADER OF THE SERB LAND

Sava Petrovic Njegos (1735-1781)
Born in c. 1700. Metropolitan and ruler of Montenegro. When the Serb Patriarchate of Pec was, under pressure of Greek clergy, banned by Turks in 1766, in the name of Serb bishops Sava wrote to Metropolitan of Moscow, informed him that SERB NATION IS UNDER HARD SLAVERY and therefore asked Russian Holy Synod to help the restoration of Serb Patriarchate. He also asked Russian Empress to PROTECT SERBS FROM THE GREEK AND TURKISH INTRUDING and said WE ARE READY TO PAY RUSSIA IN BLOOD

Vasilije Petrovic Njegos (1750-1766)
Born in 1709. Metropolitan and ruler of Montenegro. Ruled with Sava. He was convinced that Montenegro, with Russian help, has to play crucial role in the restoration of the Serb Empire. In his book "History of Montenegro", he listed Serb bishops and put himself above the others. In the "Ode to Nemanja", the founder of medieval Serb dynasty, Vasilije evokes Serb past with the words HOLY SERB KINGS ARISE, and adds SERB BISHOPS DO NOT SLEEP, BUT ENTIRE NIGHT PRAY TO GOD SERB EMPIRE TO RESTORE.

Petar I Petrovic Njegos (1782-1830)
Born in 1747. Metropolitan and ruler of Montenegro. During the Russian-Turkish war in 1807, Petar I Petrovic sent Russian General of Danube army a letter with the proposal to Russian Emperor about restoration of Serb Empire. According to the proposal, RUSSIAN EMPEROR WOULD BE RECOGNIZED AS THE EMPEROR OF THE SERBS AND THE METROPOLITAN OF MONTENEGRO WOULD BE HIS ASSISTANT. THE LEADING ROLE IN THE RESTORATION OF SERB EMPIRE BELONGS TO MONTENEGRO.

Petar II Petrovic Njegos (1830-1851)
Born in 1813. Metropolitan and ruler of Montenegro. The father of modern Serb national identity. The author of the most patriotic Serb epic "The Mountain Wreath". In the year of 1848, the Government of Serbia sent him the proposal of unification of Serbs, Croats and Bulgarians. Petar II Petrovic agreed but said THE SERBDOM HAS TO UNITE FIRST. I WILL, THEN, TO MY PATRIARCHATE OF PEC AND SERBIAN PRINCE TO PRIZREN. SPIRITUAL AUTHORITY TO ME AND SECULAR TO HIM, OVER THE NATION FREE AND UNITED.

Danilo Petrovic Njegos (1851-1860)
Born in 1826. He divided spiritual and secular authorities and became the Prince. His letters to Princes of Serbia, Aleksandar Karadjordjevic and Mihailo Obrenovic, and his deed, were always inspired with the idea of Serb unification - IN FRONT OF THE TENT I'LL SERVE THE KING IF SERBDOM WOULD BE EVER UNITED AND UNITY OF SERBS REACHED or LET PRINCE MIHAILO JUST START, I'LL JOIN HIM WITH MY MONTENEGRINS TO LIBERATE THE SERB NATION, WITH ME EVEN AS AN ORDINARY SOLDIER.

Nikola Petrovic Njegos (1860-1918)
Born in 1841, died in 1921. In 1910, he was proclaimed as a King of Montenegro. His entire political work was inspired only with one idea, the restoration of Serb Empire. He saw himself as a new Emperor Dusan, as a rightful descendent of medieval Serb Throne. The Great war (1876-78) was his revenge for the Kosovo battle in 1389. His message to Montenegrins in Herzegovina, in 1876, was UNDER MURAD I SERB EMPIRE WAS DESTROYED UNDER MURAD V IT HAS TO RISE AGAIN. THIS IS MY WISH AND WISH OF ALL OF US AS WELL AS THE WISH OF ALMIGHTY GOD.


Now is clear that those aren’t ``Croatian guslars`` and highlanders. Why should I lie? Only Croats spread propaganda, on behalf of corrupt Western governments and their mujahedine allays.

Lika, Dubrovnik, Dalmatia and Herzegovina are on the first place old Serbian historic territories. In case with Serbs of those regions...

About great inventor and scientist NIKOLA TESLA:

USA Public Broadcasting Service

http://www.pbs.org/tesla/ll/ll_early.html

``Nikola Tesla was born a subject of the Austro-Hungarian Empire in 1856 in a mountainous area of the Balkan Peninsula known as Lika. His father Milutin, and his mother Djuka, were both Serbian by origin. Tesla's father was a stern but loving Orthodox priest, who was also a gifted writer and poet. At a young age, Tesla immersed himself in his father's library. Tesla's mother was a hard working woman of many talents who created appliances to help with home and farm responsibilities. One of these was a mechanical eggbeater. Tesla attributed all of his inventive instincts to his mother.``


NIKOLA TESLA: The European Years

By D, Mrkich

http://www.serbnatlfed.org/Archives/Tesla/tesla-theeuropeanyears.htm

Nikola Tesla`s father in one private latter…

“Lika is, according to its territory and population, large, and is made up of only Serbs, or if you like, of Serbs and Croats, of Orthodox and Catholic faith. In Lika, there are more Serbs of Orthodox than of Roman Catholic faith.”

What happened with those Orthodox and Catholic Serbs of Lika?

Catholis Serbs were with cultural and administrative violence declared as Croats and hire is the answer what happened with Orthodox Serbs of Lika, Banija, Kordun- all in today`s Croatia. From the same link…

``…in Gospic, in 1941, the Croat Government Minister announced his program for the solution of the Serb question in Croatia: one third to be killed, one third to be converted to Catholicism, and one third to be expulsed. Following decades of ethnocide, the program was accomplished in 1995 when, from August 4-7, 212,000 Serbs from western Krajina were ethnically cleansed - with full support of western governments.``


About Serbian Dalmatia and Dubrovnik...

ARCHEOLOGICAL EVIDENCE OF SLAV CULTURES ON THE EASTERN ADRIATIC COAST IN MEDIEVAL TIMES

Relationship Towards Serbian Monuments in Konavle

by Djordje Capin

http://www.rastko.org.yu/rastko-bo/istorija/djcapin-konavli_e.html

``When Konavle (border region between Dubrovnik and Herzegovina) came under the rule of Austria in 1815 began a systematic action of denationalization and uprooting of ancient Serbian customs and destroying or remodeling of Serbian monuments. The action had lasted until the fall of Austria-Hungary in 1918 and continued with more intensity during the short rule of "NDH" (independent state of Croatia) and after during the communist Socialist Republic of Croatia in the former SFR Yugoslavia. All the time until the beginning of Austro-Hungarian annexation and even later the term "Croatia" or "Croatian" is completely unknown in the region of Konavle. Not until the second half of the nineteenth century when all Roman-Catholics who spoke Serbian language were announced Croatians gradually they began to declare themselves under the pressure of authorities and Church as Croats.``


DUBROVNIK- Always Serbian, sometimes Latin, never Croatian

by Slobodan Jarcevic

http://www.yugouk.co.uk/forum/read.php?f=1&i=3248&t=3248

Pope Leo XIII was convinced that the inhabitants of Dubrovnik were (in the beginning of 20th century) ready to be initiated into Croatdom, and so by his order the above mentioned Institute was renamed into “Croatian Institute of Saint Geronimo“.

The Catholics of Dubrovnik intensely protested against this decision of Pope Leo XIII. The Pope backed off. At the time, he feared the longer-lasting controversy in further discussion about the essence of Serbdom and Croatdom, as well as Orthodoxy and Catholicism. He sent a letter of apology to Dubrovnik’s Catholics informing them that the word “Croatian“ would be taken out of the name of the Institute. Even after the apology, Pope feared that a public discussion about the nationality and language of Dubrovnik’s inhabitants might develop and so he addressed them as “Catholic Serbs“ in a telegram sent to them in 1903.

The letter and telegram of Pope Leo XIII sent to the city of Dubrovnik was published in the Serbian publication “Dubrovnik“, but those publications were sought out and destroyed by Croatian government, and so there is a question whether there are any other copies of this publication left besides those in the Vatican’s archives.

The Croatianization of Dubrovnik’s Serbs and Serbs from other regions was often done by theft of, among other things, lyric and heroic national songs which were gathered by Catholic Serbs, and even by Catholic priests. Those songs were published by “Croatian Motherland“ as “Croatian National Songs“. This behavior of “Croatian Motherland“ editors inspired a Dubrovnik Catholic (Serb) Lujo Vojinovic, the brother of poet Ivo Vojinovic, to respond in Serbian publication “Dubrovnik“ (1897, number 35) with sharp criticism of “Motherland’s“ actions, prophetically claiming the disapperance of Catholic Serbs, because of Croatian genocide to be committed against them. He ends his article with these words:

“Serbs over the Drina River! And that codeword is blindly listened to and it will be listened to until the final day which must come, a final day when a great cataclysm will destroy all the artistic fences, or... or, ohh, destroy the final bastions of Serbian national culture and that is when the Croats will be satisfied!


THE MEDIAEVAL CULTURE OF SERBS ON THE BORDER TOWARDS WESTERN EUROPE

Dr. Djordje Jankovic

http://www.rastko.org.yu/arheologija/djankovic/djankovic-zapadni_c.html

Summary (on the end of article)

``Although Emperor Constantine VII Porphyrogenet wrote that the Serbs by agreement settled Roman-Byzantine Dalmatia at the time of Emperor Heraclius (610-641), archaeological data from the environs of Grahovo and Drvar speak of this as occurring at the end of the IV century. In the Early Middle Ages, the Serbs can be recognized archaeologically by their stone mounds. These are remnants of graves and monuments in the form of tumuli in which as a rule there are no remains of either burned or buried people but rather traces of a burial feast and ritual places or only hearths. From Podrinje to Lika these are frequently to be found. Near Knin (Uzdolje) shards of pottery have been found in mounds which precede the Frankish attempt to conquer the whole province of Dalmatia at the outset of the IX century.

In the X-XIII centuries, the region from Lika to Pomoravlje is distinctive by dint of the use of predominantly silver earrings with one to three filigree elbows. Those earrings which are more opulent have a lower link covered with metal grains and instead of elbows they have three strawberries. In the second half of the XI century when Serbia was ruled by King Mihajlo and Konstantin Bodin, the liturgy in the Slavic tongue was introduced in addition to the Latin liturgy. This can be seen on a Cyrillic-Glagolithic inscription in Kapitul. This was also the period of the construction of churches by the Zeta-Zahumska community in the environs of Knin. These were small one-nave churches divided by pilasters into three or four traves with an outer semi-circular apse.

In the Late Middle Ages, there are numerous archaeological finds regarding the Serbs in the same area. The graves of the Orthodox Serbs, but also of those of the Roman Catholic faith, are marked by massive stone monuments, at times with ornamentation or with Cyrillic inscriptions, all the way to Lika (border region with Dalmatia, to the north) and Banija (north east from Slavonia)- marbles and stelae. In the graves there continue to be found examples of pottery shards and remains of food.

As regards the costumes of women, the "pocelica" (a kind of diadem) made of small decorated silver tablets sown on to a band is a distinctive feature.

Also of special interest are the earrings with three large strawberries made in various filigree workmanship. A series of monasteries from Dragovic, Krka and Krupa in Dalmatia, up to Orahovica in Slavonia, are by tradition attributed to the Late Middle Ages, but this has been archaeologically ascertained only for Rmanj on the Una River and for some surrounding hermitages.``


Herzegovina

Wikipedia

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herzegovina

History

In the early Middle Ages, the territory of modern Bosnia and Herzegovina was divided into many smaller more or less independent territories. Herzegovina encompasses the regions then known as the Land of Hum or Zahumlje and Travunija. The westernmost parts of Herzegovina belonged to the Kingdom of Croatia. The book De Administrando Imperio mentions Zahumlje and Travunija (today`s Herzegovina) as two regions inhabited by Serb tribes.


That`s how it was/is!

sheriff skullface
Saturday, September 30th, 2006, 12:38 AM
I'm really interested, from reading this, about the glorious victory of the Russians over the Judeo-Khazar empire, does anybody have any scholarly resources on this?

Crow
Saturday, September 30th, 2006, 12:58 AM
I'm really interested, from reading this, about the glorious victory of the Russians over the Judeo-Khazar empire, does anybody have any scholarly resources on this?
Sure

Just go on Wikipedia

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khazars

Khazars

Diplomatic isolation and military threats

The Rus warlords Oleg of Novgorod and Sviatoslav I of Kiev launched several wars against the Khazar khaganate, often with Byzantine connivance. The Schechter Letter relates the story of a campaign against Khazaria by HLGW (Oleg) around 941 (in which Oleg was defeated by the Khazar general Pesakh; this calls into question the timeline of the Primary Chronicle and other related works.

Sviatoslav finally succeeded in destroying Khazar imperial power in the 960s. The Khazar fortresses of Sarkel and Tamatarkha fell to the Rus in 965, with the capital city of Atil following circa 967 or 969.

sunwheel_cro
Monday, October 2nd, 2006, 09:50 AM
@crow
what about Croatian name, that existed thousand years ago? What about Croatian kingdoms, and Dukes from fighting with magyars, bulgarians, avars, and italians, from 700years A.C? Serbia land in that period was under hunagirans, or bulgarians rule. Where were Serbians in that period??
Serbians in Croatia, are Serbians who escape from Turkish rule when serbia about 1400 failed in Turkish hand, and want to fight against Turks, not to submit. So they move to Croatian land, and now you claim that land is Serbian. hahahhah.
You said that Dubrovnik is Serbian city:-O
Where, when?????
If you think so , try to go into Dubrovnik , and try to say to Dubrovnik citizen that they are not Croats they are Serbs!!!
I think that you will get alive out of city:thumbdown

Austrvegr
Monday, October 2nd, 2006, 11:17 AM
Serbian Gusle

http://www.arikah.net/commons/en/thumb/0/01/150px-Serbian_Gusle.jpg

Gusle

http://www.arikah.net/encyclopedia/Gusle

The gusle or gusla (Bulgarian: Гусла, Serbian: Гусле, Croatian: Gusle) is a single-stringed instrument used in the Balkans and on the Dinarides area. This instrument should not be confused with the Russian Gusli.

Indeed, what Serbs call gusle, Russians call gudok. They are bow instruments.

Russian medieval gudok

http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d169/-aaabbb-/Gardariki/vikgudok04.jpg

Russian gudki of the 18th century

http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d169/-aaabbb-/Gardariki/viknovggudki.jpg

Russian gusli is a stringed instrument. 14th century miniatures showing the helmet-form gusli and how it was played

http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d169/-aaabbb-/Gardariki/viknovggusli01.jpg

Nicola_Canadian
Tuesday, October 3rd, 2006, 01:48 AM
Russian Ships (Ladia)


http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/17/Nicholas_Roerich%2C_Guests_from_Overseas .jpg/797px-Nicholas_Roerich%2C_Guests_from_Overseas .jpg

Nicola_Canadian
Tuesday, October 3rd, 2006, 01:50 AM
Rus in 9-10th centuary - war against Turko-Jewish Khazars

http://www.russia-talk.com/history/rus-9-10.jpg

OneEnglishNorman
Tuesday, October 3rd, 2006, 01:52 AM
Russian Ships (Ladia)


http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/17/Nicholas_Roerich%2C_Guests_from_Overseas .jpg/797px-Nicholas_Roerich%2C_Guests_from_Overseas .jpg

Norman shields on the front!

http://www.imh.org/imh/jpg/bayeux.jpg

Nicola_Canadian
Tuesday, October 3rd, 2006, 02:10 AM
This was a typical Russian shield shape -

http://www.shop.gotula.ru/post/catalog/_aplja3800a.jpg

Austrvegr
Friday, October 6th, 2006, 03:21 PM
It is noteworthy that gusli was the instrument closely associated with Veles, the Slavic chthonic god in charge, among other things, of poetic inspiration. In medieval Russia poets and musicians were called "grandsons of Veles". The god's name consists of two parts, the first (vel) means otherworld (cf. val in the Germanic valkyrie and Valhalla), the second (es) is a cognate of the Indic Asura, Iranian Ahura and Norse AEsir.

http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d169/-aaabbb-/Gardariki/vikveles.jpg

Austrvegr
Friday, October 6th, 2006, 03:25 PM
In the Viking Age, and throughout the Middle Ages, wood dominated in the Russian architecture. The material was used to build rather complicated structures.

http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d169/-aaabbb-/Gardariki/vik01.jpg

http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d169/-aaabbb-/Gardariki/vik02.jpg

Austrvegr
Friday, October 6th, 2006, 03:32 PM
Due to the transient quality of the material, very little has been preserved of early wooden architecture. These beautiful columns unearthed in Novgorod give an idea of the Russian architecture in the 11th century.

http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d169/-aaabbb-/Gardariki/viknovgkolonny.jpg

http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d169/-aaabbb-/Gardariki/viknovgkolonnaproris.jpg

Here are 11th columns of Norwegian churches for comparison.

http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d169/-aaabbb-/Gardariki/viknovgkolnorv1.jpghttp://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d169/-aaabbb-/Gardariki/viknovgkolnorv2.jpghttp://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d169/-aaabbb-/Gardariki/viknovgkolnorv3.jpg

Austrvegr
Friday, October 6th, 2006, 03:35 PM
This style of wooden carving lived on in the stone decoration of Russian churches in the 12th and 13th centuries

http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d169/-aaabbb-/Gardariki/vikdmitr36-99-1l.jpg

http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d169/-aaabbb-/Gardariki/vikdmitrstone.jpg

http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d169/-aaabbb-/Gardariki/vikdmitrvlad_detal.jpg

Panzer
Saturday, October 7th, 2006, 12:49 AM
It is a very good book on russian languge about russian man in the Viking Age.
http://lib.aldebaran.ru/author/vronskii_yurii/vronskii_yurii_neobychainye_priklyucheni ya_kukshi_iz_domovichei/vronskii_yurii_neobychainye_priklyucheni ya_kukshi_iz_domovichei.rtf.zip

http://lib.aldebaran.ru/author/chudi... teri.rtf.zip (http://lib.aldebaran.ru/author/chudinova_elena/chudinova_elena_mechet_parizhskoi_bogoma teri/chudinova_elena_mechet_parizhskoi_bogoma teri.rtf.zip)

http://lib.aldebaran.ru/author/vrons...vichei.fb2.zip (http://lib.aldebaran.ru/author/vronskii_yurii/vronskii_yurii_neobychainye_priklyucheni ya_kukshi_iz_domovichei/vronskii_yurii_neobychainye_priklyucheni ya_kukshi_iz_domovichei.fb2.zip)

http://lib.aldebaran.ru/author/vrons...hei.isilo3.pdb (http://lib.aldebaran.ru/author/vronskii_yurii/vronskii_yurii_neobychainye_priklyucheni ya_kukshi_iz_domovichei/vronskii_yurii_neobychainye_priklyucheni ya_kukshi_iz_domovichei.isilo3.pdb)

sheriff skullface
Sunday, October 8th, 2006, 07:45 PM
Due to the transient quality of the material, very little has been preserved of early wooden architecture. These beautiful columns unearthed in Novgorod give an idea of the Russian architecture in the 11th century.

http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d169/-aaabbb-/Gardariki/viknovgkolonny.jpg

http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d169/-aaabbb-/Gardariki/viknovgkolonnaproris.jpg

Here are 11th columns of Norwegian churches for comparison.

http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d169/-aaabbb-/Gardariki/viknovgkolnorv1.jpghttp://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d169/-aaabbb-/Gardariki/viknovgkolnorv2.jpghttp://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d169/-aaabbb-/Gardariki/viknovgkolnorv3.jpg

alot of that early wooden arciticture actually reminded me of the scandivian runestones, they seem to resemble each other alot :thumbup

Stainawarijaz
Tuesday, October 24th, 2006, 02:10 PM
Russians are the Slavic Northmen :)

Klegutati
Saturday, October 28th, 2006, 03:41 PM
Russian musical instruments

http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d169/-aaabbb-/Gardariki/mus00.jpg



The favorite Russian musical instrument was the gusli, similar to the Germanic lyre. Here is a genuine Russian gusli of the mid-11th century bearing the name of its owner, Slovisha

http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d169/-aaabbb-/Gardariki/mus03.jpg



Modern gusli player

http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d169/-aaabbb-/Gardariki/gusli_m.jpg


Gusli is also Croatian folk instrument, especialy from Dalmatia. They are called on Croatian "Gusle" :thumbup[/quote]

Very popular in the Grand Duchy of Lithuania (Poland), Belarus, and Ukraine (former places of Kiyvska Rus')..:thumbup

Austrvegr
Friday, November 3rd, 2006, 02:37 PM
Viking Age-derived traditions lived in the Russian art for a long time. Here are some noteworthy examples from the 11th-15th centuries.

Carved bone decorations

http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d169/-aaabbb-/Gardariki/drak01.jpg

http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d169/-aaabbb-/Gardariki/drak02.jpg

http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d169/-aaabbb-/Gardariki/drakzver.jpg

Austrvegr
Friday, November 3rd, 2006, 02:44 PM
Fibula

http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d169/-aaabbb-/Gardariki/drak00.jpg


Detail of a sledge

http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d169/-aaabbb-/Gardariki/draksani.jpg


Leather application

http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d169/-aaabbb-/Gardariki/drakleatherappl.jpg


Scoop handle

http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d169/-aaabbb-/Gardariki/drakkovsh.jpg

Austrvegr
Friday, November 3rd, 2006, 02:59 PM
The acme of teratology in Russian book illumination coincided in the 14th century with the movement of ushkuiniks who were latter-day Vikings, harrying neighboring countries from Norway to the Golden Horde.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ushkuiniks

Austrvegr
Friday, November 3rd, 2006, 03:00 PM
http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d169/-aaabbb-/Gardariki/novgzast26.jpg

Austrvegr
Friday, November 3rd, 2006, 03:03 PM
http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d169/-aaabbb-/Gardariki/novgzast22.jpg

http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d169/-aaabbb-/Gardariki/novgzast23.jpg

http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d169/-aaabbb-/Gardariki/novgzast24.jpg

http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d169/-aaabbb-/Gardariki/novgzast60.jpg

http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d169/-aaabbb-/Gardariki/zastpsaltstepana2.jpg

http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d169/-aaabbb-/Gardariki/zastpsaltstepana3.jpg

Oswiu
Saturday, November 4th, 2006, 12:18 AM
The acme of teratology in Russian book illumination coincided in the 14th century with the movement of ushkuiniks who were latter-day Vikings, harrying neighboring countries from Norway to the Golden Horde.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ushkuiniks
Their most significant contribution to history, however, would be their expanding of Slavdom into the Finnic-Ugric north and east.

Wikipedia neglects to mention the history of the name.



On the Oskuya, a small right tributary of the Volkhov, near Novgorod, some unknown craftsmen perfected the Oskui or Ushkui. Novgorod military parties travelled on these to distant regions, by river and portage, for trade, plunder and colonial conquest, simultaneously widening geographical knowledge. These adventurers were named Ushkuiniki. A chain of words was thus made; the river Oskuya - the boat Ushkui - the person Ushkuinik.

[E.M.Murzaev, Geografiya v Nazvaniyakh, Moskva 1979 ;) ]

Austrvegr
Monday, November 27th, 2006, 12:40 PM
In the 9th-11th centuries Russian kings held their court in a place now called Ryurikovo Gorodishche in Novgorod/Holmgard on the right bank of the river Volkhov near the lake Ilmen.

http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d169/-aaabbb-/Gardariki/nosov52.jpg

This is what the place looks like now

http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d169/-aaabbb-/Gardariki/nosov55.jpg

In the middle ages the area around got flooded in the spring time and the town became an island. It is possible that this is what inspired the stories of Arab geographers about the mysterious al-jazeerah ar-rus (Russian Island).

http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d169/-aaabbb-/Gardariki/nosov56.jpg

The place has been partly excavated, and yielded a lot of beautiful Viking-age objects. It is noteworthy that in terms of the number of Viking decorations Russia comes third after Sweden and Norway, ahead even of Denmark.

http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d169/-aaabbb-/Gardariki/noss64.jpg

http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d169/-aaabbb-/Gardariki/nosov59.jpg

http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d169/-aaabbb-/Gardariki/noss65.jpg

The Russian royal court in Novgorod/Holmgard was famous throughout the Viking world. For example, as many as four Norwegian kings found refuge there, namely Olaf Tryggvason in 977-986, Olaf Haraldsson in 1029-1030, his son Magnus in 1029-1035, and Harald Sigurdarson in the early 1030s and in 1043-1044. Olaf Tryggvason was brought up by the Russian king Vladimir, and Magnus Olafsson, by the Russian king Yaroslav.

Klegutati
Friday, December 22nd, 2006, 03:39 AM
Beautiful documents/manuscripts and pictures!;)