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Prodigal Son
Wednesday, December 17th, 2003, 12:50 AM
The 'Illmen type' is a light-pigmented, leptorposopic mesocephalic type, common in Northwest Russia, Northern Belarus, and present as a small enclave in the Ukraine. The sample in question was taken in Novgorod. I also believe that the Illmen-Dnept complex reaches deep into Poland, but cannot back this assertion up with any statistical evidence. The data for the Illmen type was collected by N. N. Cheboksarov, but Karin Mark reproduced them verbatim in the below-quoted work. The Nordic type in question is the one present among Finnish Swedes. Karin Julisovna Mark classifies these Swedes as part of the "Scandinvain race", and gives them an Index of Mongoloidity of 10.5 (an index of mongoloidty of 0-21 characterizes pure Europid groups). The reason I used Finnish Swedes for this comparison was because they were the only group for which I could find detailed anthropometric/morphological data. If anyone can point me to data on some other Swedish groups, I would appreciate it.

Illmen - Nordic

Sample size: 252 - 410*

Stature (cm): 166.7 - 174.7

Wavy Hair %: 48.7 - 19.6

Beard Growth: 3.18 - 3.62

Fair Hair (Fischer #s 9-26): 23.2 - 21.3

Pure Light Eyes, %: 59.0 - 64.9**

Dark Eyes, %: 0.9 - 3.9

Head Length (mm): 189.7 -195.9

Head Breadth (mm): 150.9 - 154.6

Cephalic Index: 79.5 - 78.9

Slope of Forehead: 2.37 - 2.68

Browridge Development: 1.92 - 1.76

Bizygomatic Diameter: 138.2 - 141.6

Morphological Facial Height: 125.7 - 129.4

Horizontal Facial Profile: 2.44 - 2.65

Nasal Index: 64.0 - 61.8

Morphological Facial Index: 91.1 - 91.4

Nasal Bridge: 2.39 - 2.66

% Concave Noses: 12.7 -15.4

% Convex Noses: 24.6 - 26.2

Nasal Tip: 1.87 - 1.62


*in the Russian samples, women, who are darker and more brachycephalic than men, were included. The Swedish sample consisted of males only.

**It is problematic to compare eye color between the Russian and Swedish groups; in the Swedish sample, #s 8-12 on Bunak's eyecolor scheme were designated as light, whereas only 9-12 were designated as light in the Russian samples. Chances are, Illmen Russians have more pure light shades than Finnish Swedes.

Comments:

The major differences between these two types seems to be mainly in stature, pigmentation, and, to a lesser degree, nasal index. The Illmen type appears to have abosrbed a very strong Baltic strain of the West Baltic variety (hence the relatively strong brow-ridges). The differences in stature between Russians and Swedes are most likely due to environmental factors.

Sources:

Mark, Karin Julisovna Anthropology of the Balto-Finnish Peoples (Anthropologija Balto-Finskikh Narodov), p. 56-127, various tables. Talinin, 1975, Academy of Sciences of the Estonian SSR.

Ibid, p. 127, Table 46.

Mark, Karin Julisova Ethnic Anthropology of the Mordva (Etnicheskaja Antropologija Mordvy), p. 176, Table 28. Published in Questions Concerning the Ethnic History of the Mordivinian People (Voprosy o Etnicheskoj Istorije Mordovskogo Naroda), Moscow, 1960, Academy of Sciences of the USSR.


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Comments very welcome.

Henrik
Wednesday, December 17th, 2003, 01:07 AM
very interesting !

Odin Of Ossetia
Wednesday, December 17th, 2003, 01:08 AM
Comments:

The major differences between these three types seems to be mainly in stature, pigmentation, and, to a lesser degree, nasal index. The Illmen type appears to have abosrbed a very strong Baltic strain of the West Baltic variety (hence the relatively strong brow-ridges). The differences in stature between Russians and Swedes are most likely due to environmental factors.






It is very likely, since a lot of Western Slavs from the southern littoral of the Baltic settled among the northern Eastern Slavs (these were the Polabian-Pomeranian Slavs to be more precisce). Historians too preoccupied with "finding Normans everywhere" often ignore that very little-known fact.


In any case, this area surely deserves more detailed study.


http://wolnapolska.boom.ru/index-Wyzdraw.html

Prodigal Son
Wednesday, December 17th, 2003, 01:31 AM
Russian anthropologists classify the Illmen type as a more depigmented variant of the Northern Pontic race with strong Baltic admixture. In Western terminology, this amounts to something like "Nordic/UP". Here is a comparison of three types:


Illmen - Northern Pontic - Nordic

Sample size: 252 - 807 - 410*

Stature (cm): 166.7 - 167.7 - 174.7

Wavy Hair %: 48.7 - 47.4 - 19.6

Beard Growth: 3.18 - 2.80 - 3.62

Fair Hair (Fischer #s 9-26): 23.2 - 15.0 - 21.3

Pure Light Eyes, %: 59.0 - 39.5 - 64.9**

Dark Eyes, %: 0.9 - ~8 - 3.9

Head Length (mm): 189.7 - 192.2 - 195.9

Head Breadth (mm): 150.9 - 151.3 - 154.6

Cephalic Index: 79.5 - 78.8 - 78.9

Slope of Forehead: 2.37 - 2.47 - 2.68

Browridge Development: 1.92 - 1.65 - 1.76

Bizygomatic Diameter: 138.2 - 140.3 - 141.6

Morphological Facial Height: 125.7 - 124.9 - 129.4

Horizontal Facial Profile: 2.44 - 2.60 - 2.65

Nasal Index: 64.0 - 65.1 - 61.8

Morphological Facial Index: 91.1 - 89.1 - 91.4

Nasal Bridge: 2.39 - 2.34 - 2.66

% Concave Noses: 12.7 - 12.9 - 15.4

% Convex Noses: 24.6 - 20 - 26.2

Nasal Tip: 1.87 - 2.08 - 1.62

Henrik
Wednesday, December 17th, 2003, 05:00 AM
this is all very intersting information but i must confess that when I in Sweden I am amazed at the number of what I percept extremely nordic people. I do not have such an impression when I am in russia, but that is merely impression. the only thing which counts is a real antropological analysis

Prodigal Son
Wednesday, December 17th, 2003, 05:49 AM
this is all very intersting information but i must confess that when I in Sweden I am amazed at the number of what I percept extremely nordic people. I do not have such an impression when I am in russia, but that is merely impression. the only thing which counts is a real antropological analysis

Of course, I don't disagree with you. Swedes are generally much more Nordic than Russians, and big Russian cities are chock full of non-Russian immigrants. The data above is for ethnic Russians only. I am sure if you ever visit Novgorod or Mogilyov, which aren't full of Azeris, Armenians, Tatars, etc., etc., you'll see tons of Nordic people around.

Prodigal Son
Wednesday, December 17th, 2003, 07:13 AM
Henrik, which parts of Russia do you usually visit? The reason I am asking is because judging Russians on the basis of what you see in Moscow or St. Petersburg is kind of like evaluating Americans on the situation in New York or Los Angeles. If I were to judge based on New York, I'd say that 50% of Americans are East Mediterranean/Alpine//Armenoid, 25% Mestizo, and 25% Negroid. Likewise, if one assumes that all of Russia looks like Moscow, one will reach wrong conclusions. I strongly reccommend you visit Novgorod, Vladimir, Murmansk, Vyborg, Pskov, or some other Northern Russian towns that haven't been "swarthified" by immigrants from the Caucasus and Central Asia and Turkic minorities. You'll see some Ladogan-influenced types and some immigrants in Novgorod to be sure, but most of the people will look Baltic/Nordic. Then you'll see the "Illmen" type I am talking about... Visit Shenkurovski Krai, and you'll see the blondest people on the planet. Shenkurovski Krai Russians are almost twice as blond as Finns..

Razmig
Wednesday, December 17th, 2003, 10:28 AM
Russian cities closer to the Scandinavian platue will be more depigmented, for sure. But that does not change the Russian identity as a whole. You like to choose the blonde Russians as being the real Russians, what will you do with the rest of the brown haired brown eyed Russians, Ladogans, Uralics, Alpinids, Bashkirs and Swarths?

Henrik
Wednesday, December 17th, 2003, 02:09 PM
Henrik, which parts of Russia do you usually visit? The reason I am asking is because judging Russians on the basis of what you see in Moscow or St. Petersburg is kind of like evaluating Americans on the situation in New York or Los Angeles. If I were to judge based on New York, I'd say that 50% of Americans are East Mediterranean/Alpine//Armenoid, 25% Mestizo, and 25% Negroid. Likewise, if one assumes that all of Russia looks like Moscow, one will reach wrong conclusions. I strongly reccommend you visit Novgorod, Vladimir, Murmansk, Vyborg, Pskov, or some other Northern Russian towns that haven't been "swarthified" by immigrants from the Caucasus and Central Asia and Turkic minorities. You'll see some Ladogan-influenced types and some immigrants in Novgorod to be sure, but most of the people will look Baltic/Nordic. Then you'll see the "Illmen" type I am talking about... Visit Shenkurovski Krai, and you'll see the blondest people on the planet. Shenkurovski Krai Russians are almost twice as blond as Finns..

I visited usually moscow and petersburg. Could you tell me where is the shenkurovskij krai? do you have nimbers and pictures from there?
you also mentioned that in russia there is an area with most blue eyed people, could you give me a link please?

Henrik
Wednesday, December 17th, 2003, 02:09 PM
i mean a link to where you posted numbers