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visigodo
Saturday, September 9th, 2006, 08:49 AM
From “Races. A Study of the Problems of Race Formation in Man”. C.C. Coon, S.M. Garn, J.B. Birdsell. 1950.

North-west European. - Most of Scandinavia, much of the British Isles, Northern France, the Benelux countries, and northwest Germany is inhabited by a population characterized by medium to tall stature, medium build, brown air, mixed or blue eyes, light skin, straight to wavy hair of moderate abundance, and facial features intermediate between the fine chiselling of the Nordic or Mediterranean and the broader, fleshier Alpine. As types in this population one finds Nordics, Mediterraneans, and stocky, large-headed, broad-face, often hairy individuals who may have such paleanthropic characters as large teeth and heavy brow ridges. This third type apparently recapitulates in some degree the pre-agricultural population of this region. Western Irish, Scots, Norwegians from the central coast, Swedes from near Goteberg, and certain other local groups deviate strongly in the direction of this type. The northwest European race is also found as the characteristic form of the major breeding unit in the United States and Canada, New Zealand, Australia, and white South-Africa. The white American mean falls so close to it that no further designation is needed.

Check how Coon was classified himself as North-west European:

C. Coon:
http://img166.imageshack.us/img166/3610/coonwk3.th.gif (http://img166.imageshack.us/my.php?image=coonwk3.gif)

Plate (Middle left):


http://img245.imageshack.us/img245/7505/plate1vk7.th.jpg (http://img245.imageshack.us/my.php?image=plate1vk7.jpg)

Interesting to read the definition of Nordic:

Nordic.- A blond phase of Mediterranean. In no population is blondism complete. In the eastern valleys of Norway and parts of Sweden, where the extreme is reached, probably no more that 50 per cent are wholly nordic in skin, hair, and eyes. Nordics are concentrated in Scandinavia, Finland, Northern Germany, the Netherlands, and the British Isles, as well as in areas overseas settled by peoples from these regions. Although it is common as a type, few populations in Europe or elsewhere can be called Nordic in the strict sense. Most which other authors have called Nordic fall into our Northwest European category.

Nordic:

http://img221.imageshack.us/img221/1065/nordiczr1.th.jpg (http://img221.imageshack.us/my.php?image=nordiczr1.jpg)

Agrippa
Saturday, September 9th, 2006, 01:55 PM
I think that such views are far away from reality and its a trial to undermine the idea of a strong Nordid element in the North as such.

visigodo
Monday, September 11th, 2006, 07:05 AM
I think that such views are far away from reality and its a trial to undermine the idea of a strong Nordid element in the North as such.

You can be possibly right. My intention overalls was to show how Coon was classified racially by himself. Interesting as curiosity.

Agrippa
Monday, September 11th, 2006, 02:40 PM
You can be possibly right. My intention overalls was to show how Coon was classified racially by himself. Interesting as curiosity.

I agree with his self-classification, just not with the one for North Western and Northern Central Europe, since even if there are strong Cromagnoid elements, the Nordid type is no small minority element.

Amorsite
Friday, January 11th, 2008, 09:04 AM
Reposting from Visigodo at Stirpes. To put it broadly, Coon basically comes to the conclusion that Northwestern Europe is largely Upper Paleolithic and not Nordic as he believed in 1939. This idea is also supported and continued by this thread (http://forums.skadi.net/showthread.php?t=3848).
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From “Races. A Study of the Problems of Race Formation in Man”. C.C. Coon, S.M. Garn, J.B. Birdsell. 1950.

North-west European. - Most of Scandinavia, much of the British Isles, Northern France, the Benelux countries, and northwest Germany is inhabited by a population characterized by medium to tall stature, medium build, brown air, mixed or blue eyes, light skin, straight to wavy hair of moderate abundance, and facial features intermediate between the fine chiselling of the Nordic or Mediterranean and the broader, fleshier Alpine. As types in this population one finds Nordics, Mediterraneans, and stocky, large-headed, broad-face, often hairy individuals who may have such paleanthropic characters as large teeth and heavy brow ridges. This third type apparently recapitulates in some degree the pre-agricultural population of this region. Western Irish, Scots, Norwegians from the central coast, Swedes from near Goteberg, and certain other local groups deviate strongly in the direction of this type. The northwest European race is also found as the characteristic form of the major breeding unit in the United States and Canada, New Zealand, Australia, and white South-Africa. The white American mean falls so close to it that no further designation is needed.

Check how Coon was classified himself as North-west European:

C. Coon:
http://img166.imageshack.us/img166/3610/coonwk3.th.gif (http://img166.imageshack.us/my.php?image=coonwk3.gif)


Plate (Middle left):

http://img170.imageshack.us/img170/5369/plate1nk7.th.jpg (http://img170.imageshack.us/my.php?image=plate1nk7.jpg)
http://img170.imageshack.us/my.php?image=plate1nk7.jpg

Interesting to read the definition of Nordic:

Nordic.- A blond phase of Mediterranean. In no population is blondism complete. In the eastern valleys of Norway and parts of Sweden, where the extreme is reached, probably no more that 50 per cent are wholly nordic in skin, hair, and eyes. Nordics are concentrated in Scandinavia, Finland, Northern Germany, the Netherlands, and the British Isles, as well as in areas overseas settled by peoples from these regions. Although it is common as a type, few populations in Europe or elsewhere can be called Nordic in the strict sense. Most which other authors have called Nordic fall into our Northwest European category.

Nordic:
http://img221.imageshack.us/img221/1065/nordiczr1.th.jpg (http://img221.imageshack.us/my.php?image=nordiczr1.jpg)
http://img221.imageshack.us/my.php?image=nordiczr1.jpg

Allenson
Friday, January 11th, 2008, 03:09 PM
I couldn't agree more on this later revision in Coon's thinking. The more that I have looked at information pertaining to the phenotypes of Europe and European derived populations, the more I've come to my own conclusion that there is a general NW Euro type that covers a fair bit of geography, sprinkled with local patches that show particular trends in one direction or another (Brunn in Ireland, Nordics in Scandinavia, Borrebys & Faelids in the Netherlands, Germany & Denmark...).

Thanks for sharing.

Bridie
Friday, January 11th, 2008, 04:02 PM
Nordic.- A blond phase of Mediterranean.....
Here we go again... :rolleyes: ...




........................................ ......................

Fortis_in_Arduis
Friday, January 11th, 2008, 06:05 PM
Hey, perhaps if we took a bunch of Meds, starved them of Vitamin D and stuck in them in a freezer for 10,000 years they would come out just like this:

http://munchies.files.wordpress.com/2007/08/village-of-the-damned-kids.jpg

Do I deserve an infraction for that? :D

Allenson
Friday, January 11th, 2008, 07:00 PM
Hey, perhaps if we took a bunch of Meds, starved them of Vitamin D and stuck in them in a freezer for 10,000 years they would come out just like this:


Do I deserve an infraction for that? :D



Well, it's not particularly on topic--so, I could certainly justify giving you one.

Do you have anything related to the topic at hand to add or perhaps to explain your thoughts above?

Kadu
Friday, January 11th, 2008, 08:31 PM
Nordic.- A blond phase of Mediterranean.

At last! You were somewhat confuse in the past, however i don't see any update on your profile, it should say by now Atlanto-mediterranean.:D

Bridie, Mediterranean is just a synonym of aurignacoid or leptodolichomorph, as a morphological type opposed to the Cromagnoid or eurydolichomorph type. It doesn't imply a direct relationship between Nordids and Mediterranids regarding their origins. Of course Northern Cromagnids cluster genetically with Northern Nordids but it's undeniable that morphologically speaking Nordids are indentical to Mediterranids.

Bridie
Saturday, January 12th, 2008, 03:52 AM
At last! You were somewhat confuse in the past, however i don't see any update on your profile, it should say by now Atlanto-mediterranean.:D

Bridie, Mediterranean is just a synonym of aurignacoid or leptodolichomorph, as a morphological type opposed to the Cromagnoid or eurydolichomorph type. It doesn't imply a direct relationship between Nordids and Mediterranids regarding their origins. Of course Northern Cromagnids cluster genetically with Northern Nordids but it's undeniable that morphologically speaking Nordids are indentical to Mediterranids.It does imply a direct relationship between Nordids and Meds if one says that Nordids are depigmented Meds. It directly assumes that Nordids are merely Meds carrying some mutated genes (that cause the depigmented phenotypical traits). It also hints at the idea that Meds and Nordids are pretty much the same regarding behavioural and intellectual traits, while CMs are the quite different.

If Northern CMs cluster genetically with Northern Nordids, then its because they are more closely related to each other than either group is to Southern Meds. Regardless of visual interpretation (note - not fact, but subjective interpretation), facts are facts, and I think its obvious that Nordids are more similar in not only pigmentation to Northern CMs, but in character and in their development of culture also.

I can accept that there are two basic groups in Europe (and in fact, the world) - gracile and robust... and both Meds and Nordids fall into the gracile category, while CMs are robust, but that's about where the similarity ends. Or are you going to suggest that all graciles the world over are more closely related to each other than Northern CMs are to Northern Nordids? Perhaps gracile Negrids are just deeply pigmented Nordids...

I think pigmentation matters more than a lot of people on here would like to admit.

Fortis_in_Arduis
Saturday, January 12th, 2008, 10:00 AM
Pigmentation is a very personal thing Bridie. Depigmentation is associated with youth and attractiveness.

Nevertheless, turn those carnal preferences off. (Not terribly sure how one does that)

CM people who have similar pigmentation to myself are generally nothing like sub-nordic me. I think that most CM people are a bit crazy and vice-versa. I just cannot work out what make them tick. We remain mysterious to each other.

I think that we should look at dietary habits and requirements, because it was supposedly lack of Vitamin D which promoted blondism. Do nordics and CMs have different dietary habits as a result of differing selection pressure? There will be much to reveal from looking at this.

Then there is corded admixture to take into account. How did that happen, where and when? What a pile of twaddle. I think I need to lie down and contemplate a career in journalism now.

No, hang on...

Nordids and CMs have gone through some similar selection pressures, so of course there are going to be cultural similarities.

Nevertheless, I just know from myself that CMs are an eternal mystery for me.

I gravitate towards my own with the desire to share food and living space. My GF is mostly Keltic-Nordic and so is the Nordic half of me and our lives totally revolve around eating the same food, drinking the same drinks, wearing the same colours and this is why, despite some arbitrary cultural differences, we get along like a house on fire, even when things go tits up, because one needs to have the support of people who understand one's relationship with one's environment. Oh dear, I think that I have become a racist...

We like blackcurrants, salad greens, mild cheeses, salt, honey, the same intoxicants, sloe gin, the same hangover cures.

CMs are wonderful, beautiful but they are just another country.

Angelcynn Beorn
Saturday, February 9th, 2008, 11:53 PM
Maybe i misread it, but where does Coon say that the population of NW Europe is largely UP? It looks to me like he says it is largely a composite type with individuals of many different types present within it as a whole.

This section:

This third type apparently recapitulates in some degree the pre-agricultural population of this region. Western Irish, Scots, Norwegians from the central coast, Swedes from near Goteberg, and certain other local groups deviate strongly in the direction of this type.

seems to make it absolutely clear that he considered UP types to be as much a deviation from the average of the NW type, as he does pure Nordics and Mediteraneans.

OneEnglishNorman
Monday, March 17th, 2008, 08:45 PM
For comparison, Mediterranean plates from "Races. A Study of the Problems of Race Formation in Man".

http://i257.photobucket.com/albums/hh212/europethread/0%20%20Forum%20Pics/meds.jpg

Amorsite
Monday, March 17th, 2008, 08:47 PM
Clarifying NW European
(only using excerpts from Races a Study of the Problems of Race formation in Man)

1) Nordic and NW European are not the same

This is known firstly by Coon's description of Nordic
http://i257.photobucket.com/albums/hh212/europethread/0%20nordicthread/RaceSPRFM/nordic.jpg

"most which other authors have called Nordic fall in our Northwest European category". So they are different categories. Here is the number each category is given

http://i257.photobucket.com/albums/hh212/europethread/0%20nordicthread/RaceSPRFM/alltypes.jpg

Nordic is race 18, NW Euro is race 4.
Nordic and NW European are used distinctively

http://i257.photobucket.com/albums/hh212/europethread/0%20nordicthread/RaceSPRFM/sacolored.jpg

2) Origin of Nordic

http://i257.photobucket.com/albums/hh212/europethread/0%20nordicthread/RaceSPRFM/medsandnords.jpg

Neolithic farmers and herdsmen.


3) Origin of NW European race

The prototype of the NW European race (race No. 4) is an Upper Paleolithic survival (race No. 4.a). See the list of races above.

http://i257.photobucket.com/albums/hh212/europethread/0%20nordicthread/RaceSPRFM/118.jpg

Angelcynn Beorn
Tuesday, March 18th, 2008, 05:58 AM
Since you've posted scans of 18, 20, and 3 already, could you also post scans of 4 and 4a as well?

Besides, nobody was claiming that Nordic and NW European meant the same thing. The question was whether NW European and UP meant the same thing. Which, according to the quotation on your initial post, they do not.

Dr. Solar Wolff
Tuesday, March 18th, 2008, 06:00 AM
One thing we have learned since Coon is that Meds. are not depigmented Nordics. Other than the small agricultural Meds., all European races sprung from the old UP types. I don't know why this is such a mystery here.

Amorsite
Tuesday, March 18th, 2008, 05:40 PM
Since you've posted scans of 18, 20, and 3 already, could you also post scans of 4 and 4a as well?

Besides, nobody was claiming that Nordic and NW European meant the same thing. The question was whether NW European and UP meant the same thing. Which, according to the quotation on your initial post, they do not.

Where does it say they do not? All the material about NW European is already available in this thread, there is no further info in the book.


One thing we have learned since Coon is that Meds. are not depigmented Nordics.

No they arent.

Kadu
Tuesday, March 18th, 2008, 06:39 PM
Other than the small agricultural Meds., all European races sprung from the old UP types

I'm sure that many small Meds derive from an UP source, at least it's what Genetics tells us. As i think also that there are AMs(probably Capsians) derived from an Neolithical source.

RedJack
Tuesday, March 18th, 2008, 09:57 PM
Clarifying NW European...


Well, looky here, it still says exactly what it did the first time you posted it.
NW European type has facial features that are intermediate between Nordic/Med and reduced UP. So it sure as hell ain't unreduced UP. :D

Obviously he's using prototype in the sense of "the original form" rather than "the pattern".

Angelcynn Beorn
Wednesday, March 19th, 2008, 12:32 AM
Where does it say they do not?

In the initial quote. More specifically, here:

As types in this population one finds Nordics, Mediterraneans, and stocky, large-headed, broad-face, often hairy individuals

The NW European type contains Meds, Nords, and UPs. So it certainly isn't purely UP.


All the material about NW European is already available in this thread, there is no further info in the book.

Then this thread is redundant as you are openly admitting that Coon doesn't support what you are saying.

OneEnglishNorman
Wednesday, March 19th, 2008, 10:08 AM
Depends in a sense how people are defining Nordic. To an extent we are talking across each other. I don't really accept someone like James Cromwell derives from a northern European type in situ.

RedJack
Thursday, March 20th, 2008, 02:06 AM
Why not?
Nordics to me are people like Coon posted as examples in his book, TROE, and they're pretty common in GB and across the Anglosphere. Bridie is Nordic.

Dr. Solar Wolff
Thursday, March 20th, 2008, 06:03 AM
I'm sure that many small Meds derive from an UP source, at least it's what Genetics tells us.

I agree. But they made this transition from UP to Med. in the Near East, not Europe.
They spread West from the Eastern Med. in relatively recent times (10,000 years ago).

OneEnglishNorman
Thursday, March 20th, 2008, 08:02 AM
Why not?
Nordics to me are people like Coon posted as examples in his book, TROE, and they're pretty common in GB and across the Anglosphere. Bridie is Nordic.

Problem is she looks "British" and not continental European at all. I would say Nordics are common in the English upper classes in Eastern England. Some strata of English society must be very Nordic, proportionally, even for northern Europe.

RedJack
Friday, March 21st, 2008, 03:05 AM
Problem is she looks "British" and not continental European at all.

What a daft comment. Of course a Nordic English lass looks English or British. Nordics are not a continental type, they are a nordic type. The nordic countries are Great Britain, the Low Countries, Northern Germany and Scandinavia.



I would say Nordics are common in the English upper classes in Eastern England. Some strata of English society must be very Nordic, proportionally, even for northern Europe.


They're common in England full stop. Remember the Anglo-Saxons, the Danes, the Norse? :D I think we should do a Lundman and call Tronders, Anglo-Saxon types, Cordeds, Halstatts, Keltic types and North Atlantids all Nordic. But even just using Halstatt and Keltic, they are common in England.

OneEnglishNorman
Friday, March 21st, 2008, 12:37 PM
What a daft comment. Of course a Nordic English lass looks English or British. Nordics are not a continental type, they are a nordic type. The nordic countries are Great Britain, the Low Countries, Northern Germany and Scandinavia.

I know, but I think Bridie is a "pseudo Nordic" in the sense that some British UPs can look that way, they still are a native British type and you would not expect to see them outside of the Isles, save for some rare individuals who may have been brought to the continent by the Vikings. I think I said in another thread, that the "two camps" are talking across each other because we have different ideas on what a Nordic is. It may be worth a brief thread just to examine that.



They're common in England full stop. Remember the Anglo-Saxons, the Danes, the Norse? :D I think we should do a Lundman and call Tronders, Anglo-Saxon types, Cordeds, Halstatts, Keltic types and North Atlantids all Nordic. But even just using Halstatt and Keltic, they are common in England.

Just going on my eyes, the KN Englishman would be more common away from South-East and Eastern England. English people in the SE and in parts of London look far more "northern Germanic", like they belong more in northern Germany, Denmark and Sweden, than they do in the Isles.

RedJack
Friday, March 21st, 2008, 07:18 PM
There's nothing pseudo about it, she's Nordic, not UP. Halstatts do not look foreign in England. I'm from the Northwest and I've seen loads of them. But, like you say that's a subject for another thread. What constitutes a Nordic or more precisely Halstatts and Keltic types isn't relevant here. Coon's Northwestern type isn't unreduced or unmixed UP. And unreduced or unmixed UP isn't the predominant type in Great Britain.