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NormanBlood
Wednesday, December 10th, 2003, 06:22 PM
Do you believe that going back to pre-christian and Heathen values is a good way to rebuild our lost European culture? Explain your answers.

Awar
Thursday, December 11th, 2003, 12:12 AM
Hell Yes! Jesus, what kind of a question is that!?
Gosh!

:-D

Taras Bulba
Thursday, December 11th, 2003, 03:24 AM
No, Heathenism is not the best route to European cultural rebirth.

NormanBlood
Thursday, December 11th, 2003, 04:55 AM
Pushkin, mind explaining why you believe that?


AWAR, the topics was just inspired on some answers I had read on a previous topic and I wanted to know the sentiments felt by the majority of forum members on the issue of Heathenism.

Taras Bulba
Thursday, December 11th, 2003, 04:59 AM
Pushkin, mind explaining why you believe that?

Well to put it simply, I'm a devout Christian. If anything, Christianity is the main spiritual route to European revival.

Awar
Thursday, December 11th, 2003, 05:09 AM
Europe was alive long before Christianity. Don't get me wrong, I like christianity, especially as it is NOW. The way it was in previous times was pretty scary.

I'm 100% for Europe returning to paganism. I don't think this will bring some wonderful change, because we're only human.

Saoirse
Thursday, December 11th, 2003, 05:09 AM
Is it? David was a homosexual.

Taras Bulba
Thursday, December 11th, 2003, 05:14 AM
Europe was alive long before Christianity.

I'm well aware of that. That's why I'm not opposed to Heathenism/paganism on a cultural/social level but largely on a metaphysical/theological level. Many leaders in the New Right, especially Benoist, while not Christian philosophically they do work with Christian nationalists and their theories have even been influenced by Catholic social doctrine.



Don't get me wrong, I like christianity, especially as it is NOW. The way it was in previous times was pretty scary.

Huh? Don't you have that backwards? Christianity now is pathetic. Only the Orthodox Church maintains sanity.

NormanBlood
Thursday, December 11th, 2003, 05:28 AM
If anything, Christianity is the main spiritual route to European revival.


I fail to see how a religion born in the dessert is the "main spiritual route to European revival". I suggest going beyond the basics. Look into all aspects of the mythologies, of the runes and see into it. I think the mythology is full of many great ideas as well as metaphors into understanding the human mind and the Universe around us. It reflects the European mind and subconscious, something christianity cannot do, we did not create it.

Haldís
Saturday, December 20th, 2003, 03:08 PM
who voted no ? pushkin ? (smirk)

-Reginleif

Taras Bulba
Saturday, December 20th, 2003, 09:08 PM
who voted no ? pushkin ? (smirk)

-Reginleif

And what if I did? If I made a poll about whether or not Christianity was the root to rebuilding Europe, would you vote yes?

Taras Bulba
Sunday, December 21st, 2003, 01:56 AM
If you did, I would consider you terribly misguided. ; )

Well I guess I'm a lost soul. :-)



You don't seriously expect an answer to this, do you? ; )

No, not really. But asking a Christian whether or not paganism is the root to revival makes as much sense as asking a pagan whether or not Christianity is the root of revival. It's obivious which way they're going to vote!

Awar
Sunday, December 21st, 2003, 02:07 AM
All should vote for paganism :-)

( Note to all: see Russian film author ANDREI TARKOVSKY's masterpiece ANDREI RUBLEV about the renowned medieval Russian painter ).

Milesian
Sunday, December 21st, 2003, 05:10 AM
All should vote for paganism :-)

( Note to all: see Russian film author ANDREI TARKOVSKY's masterpiece ANDREI RUBLEV about the renowned medieval Russian painter ).

Exactly cause I just watched Buffy and then Charmed and now I'm convinced that Paganism is the way forward. My Ouija board told me so and so did my New Age crystal healing set and, now I'm gonna start worshiping Odin (despite the fact he is a foreign deity that my ancestors never worshipped) and then when we've abandoned the Jewish religion of Christianity like the Jews want us to then....I ..uh....on no...wait.......duh........:(......LOL! ;-)

Stríbog
Sunday, December 21st, 2003, 05:27 AM
Exactly cause I just watched Buffy and then Charmed and now I'm convinced that Paganism is the way forward. My Ouija board told me so and so did my New Age crystal healing set and, now I'm gonna start worshiping Odin (despite the fact he is a foreign deity that my ancestors never worshipped) and then when we've abandoned the Jewish religion of Christianity like the Jews want us to then....I ..uh....on no...wait.......duh........:(......LOL! ;-)

Ouija boards would be better classified as Spiritualist, not pagan. They don't belong to a specific belief system. But I guess it's all "devil worship" to you, eh? Paganism is a very vague term that different people use to encompass different things, very much like 'white.' Anyway, I'm not giving up my tarot cards. :-D

NormanBlood
Sunday, December 21st, 2003, 07:46 AM
Exactly cause I just watched Buffy and then Charmed and now I'm convinced that Paganism is the way forward. My Ouija board told me so and so did my New Age crystal healing set and, now I'm gonna start worshiping Odin (despite the fact he is a foreign deity that my ancestors never worshipped) and then when we've abandoned the Jewish religion of Christianity like the Jews want us to then....I ..uh....on no...wait.......duh..............LOL! ;-)

1)Ouija boards and "magic crystals" have absoluetly nothing to do with Heathenism. Wicca/New Age/Neopaganism has nothing to do with Heathenism, how bout reading up before criticising?

2)I would not ask a non-Germanic to "worship" Odin or any other gods/goddesses, that would defeat the whole purpose and would be quite ridiculous.

3)I'm sick and tired of people saying "the jews want us to abandon christianity" and using it as an excuse to continue being christian. Its pure idiocy.

friedrich braun
Sunday, December 21st, 2003, 10:05 AM
Fadethebutcher (an atheist) makes a pretty powerful argument in the following threads (posted on VNN forum, i.e., not a receptive venue for a pro-Christian message) for old-time Christianity as a positive force in European development.

http://www.vnnforum.com/showthread.php?t=84

http://www.vnnforum.com/showthread.php?t=354&page=1&pp=10

http://www.vnnforum.com/showthread.php?t=410&page=1&pp=10

Taras Bulba
Sunday, December 21st, 2003, 11:08 PM
3)I'm sick and tired of people saying "the jews want us to abandon christianity" and using it as an excuse to continue being christian. Its pure idiocy.

So you're denying that Jews have an agenda against Christianity? Even Alfred Rosenberg in his "Myth of the 20th century" admitted that the Jew's hatred for Western civilization is largely a result of their extreme hatred for Christianity.

Perhaps you should read Israel Shahak's books, where he talks about the extreme hatred of Christianity that the Jews have.

Plus the Marxist Gramcsi noted the vital role Christianity played in preventing a Communist takeover in Europe, thus the de-Christianization by any means necesssary(even promoting pre-Christian paganism) was the key to the subversion of Western civilization to Marxism.

Tautalos
Monday, December 22nd, 2003, 12:18 PM
Spirituality is essential for human life. Within spirituallity, there is religion, the most direct and noble connection with the Divine. All folks have their own religion, and, consequently, each of these national/ethnic religions is, for each of the corresponding folks, the most natural and apropriated form of connection to the Divine reality.

Therefore, having in mind that the Divine is the highest level of reality, Heathenisms are the very essence of Europe.

And so, the restoration of the real Indo-European religions is the highest goal that an ethnically conscious European can aspire to.

Tautalos
Monday, December 22nd, 2003, 12:30 PM
Plus, the fact that the Jews «don't want us to be Christian» is not important at all. It is utterly ridiculous to rule the life of the whole Western World having in mind what the Jews want or not. They are not that important. They are nothing more than a foreign folk.

Also, they never like our Gods. They always considered our Gods as evil demons.
Moreover, no pagan would ever consider them as the chosen people (read Celsus, read Julian), contrary to many «westerners» influenced by the Bible.

Taras Bulba
Monday, December 22nd, 2003, 08:26 PM
And so, the restoration of the real Indo-European religions is the highest goal that an ethnically conscious European can aspire to.

And Christianity isn't European? I think this historian would disagree:



"Still, one fact must be stressed. Christianity has had a strong tie to Hellenism from the beginning, in that it was spread by means of Greek. The oldest Christian writings, including the authentic letters of Paul, were written in Greek. Whatever may have been the linguistic form of oral tradition and underlying sources of the canonical Gospels, these, too, were composed in Greek. The choice is not limited to the mission of the "Apostle to the Gentiles". It is inherent in the usage of communities that produced the texts that were later canonized as a cherent set, the New Testament. The Jews of the Diaspora were speakers of Greek. They adopted the koine, the language of communication throughout the Orient from the time of Alexander's conquests. Galilee was strongly marked by Hellenistic civilization, and even in Judea, Greek was widespread.
--"Hellenism and Christianity" from "Greek thought : a guide to classical knowledge" edited by Jacques Brunschwig and Geoffrey E.R. Lloyd, with the collaboration of Pierre Pellegrin ; translated under the direction of Catherine Porter. page 858

Many historians and scholars agree that at most Christianity grew out of Hellenic Judaism, which was a form of Judaism more influenced by Greek thinking than by Jewish tradition. Scholars have also noted the strong Greek influence in many of the Gospels, especially that of Luke. Plus it should be noted that the Jewish Christians(the very few that actually converted) in the Jerusalem was the smallest of the early churches. Jerusalem was never influential in any sense in early Christian, the leading roles belonged to Constantinople and Rome.

In other words, Christianity is about as European as any pagan religion. Even if it did originate in Judaism, it originated in a form that was heavily influenced by European thinking.

The only real way you can prove that Christianity is not European is to simply resort to the pathetic and primitive basis of Geography. But in terms of its intellectual heritage, Christianity clearly has origins in Greek(that is European) thinking as the above quote shows.

Taras Bulba
Monday, December 22nd, 2003, 08:29 PM
Plus, the fact that the Jews «don't want us to be Christian» is not important at all. It is utterly ridiculous to rule the life of the whole Western World having in mind what the Jews want or not. They are not that important. They are nothing more than a foreign folk.

Also, they never like our Gods. They always considered our Gods as evil demons.
Moreover, no pagan would ever consider them as the chosen people (read Celsus, read Julian), contrary to many «westerners» influenced by the Bible.
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/08193a.htm

"Politically and nationally the Babylonian captivity put an end for ever to the people of Israel. Even when, 350 years later, there was once more a Jewish state, those who formed it were not the people of Israel, not even the Jewish nation, but that portion which remained in the mother country of a great religious organization scattered over all Asia and Egypt " (Cornill).

Tautalos
Tuesday, December 23rd, 2003, 11:39 AM
And Christianity isn't European? I think this historian would disagree:

That's his problem. Other historians clearly state the oriental, Semitic, non-European character of Christianity.

It does not matter that the doctrine became influenced by Hellenic culture. At the core of it, Christianity is Semitic: Jesus was a Jew, JEHOVA is a Jewish Deity, the Old Testament refers to the History of the Jews. The Hellenic influence lies at the level of metaphysics. Also, whenever a Christian glorifies his/her religious roots, he/she is thinking about the first Christians, who where either of Jewish ascendency or «Jewishized».

The Hellenic aspect is thus nothing more than an European make-up upon a Semitic face. No Christian would ever dare to say that the Father is ZEUS or JUPITER, or that the epic war of the Iliad is more relevant than the Jewish escape from Egypt.

Moreover, Christianity, being universalist, can never be considered as European as a national religion, like Religio Romana, Asatru, Romuva, etc..

Therefore, Christianity was never and will never be as European as any pagan religion. JEHOVA is not European, ZEUS is. Just like JUPITER, LUG, ODIN, PERKUNAS, PERUN

Therefore, to claim that Geography is the only basis to say that Christianity is not European, is a demonstration of sheer stupid dishonesty.
It was never a matter of Geography, but of ethnicity.

Scoob
Tuesday, December 23rd, 2003, 04:51 PM
Milesian brings up a very good point, despite his error or joke about oija boards. Heathenism was essentially a variety of tribal religions of the heath. It was not a centralized religion, although there were small centralized unity such as the druidic schools and so on - which we know very little about.

So I have two objections to heathenism as a revitalizing force:

1. Heathenism is a religion of the heath. It's not a religion of modern life in industrialized big cites and their suburbs and the Internet

2. Heathenism is very local. If Europeans adopted the religions of their ancestors, the Celtic peoples would have their gods, the Nordic peoples theirs, the Romance nations theirs, the Greeks theirs, and so on.

And e.g. is the Religio Romano really suitable for say a Spaniard, whose heritage might include Iberian, Celtic, Roman, Phoenecian, and maybe Moorish peoples?

Or how about an Englishman, who might be descended from Celts, Normans, etc?

And would Heathenism be revived as a centralized, organized religion (in which case it would have to be re-molded as such)? Or would it be a private religion of the hearth?

I think that even within e.g. one Celtic tribe, there was a variety of worship. The heathens were semi-savage people. They didn't have the systematic minds of modern people, I think.

And also, so much has been lost. The Christians destroyed paganism and recorded very little. A little folklore is not enough to reconstruct a religion. But who's to say one can't be created?

But all that been said? I think if somehow there was a revival of heathenism, it would be pretty awesome. But I honestly think that maybe the European races have lost their will to power, including in America. It might come back though, who knows. If it does, they WILL create a new religion and new values.

Taras Bulba
Tuesday, December 23rd, 2003, 08:55 PM
That's his problem. Other historians clearly state the oriental, Semitic, non-European character of Christianity.

By all means find them. It's common knowledge among historians and scholars the strong Greek influence on Christianity since it's early days.



It does not matter that the doctrine became influenced by Hellenic culture. At the core of it, Christianity is Semitic:

Funny, the Jews say Christianity has more basis in Hellenism than anything Jewish.



Jesus was a Jew,

I've already refuted so many times. The fact you continue to argue this despite all evidence against it is proof of your idiocy!



JEHOVA is a Jewish Deity,

The Christian notion of God is incompatible with the Jewish notion of God.



the Old Testament refers to the History of the Jews.

Its the history of the Israelites. And as the 1980 Jewish Almanac says, "Strictly speaking it is incorrect to call an ancient Israelite a Jew or to call a contemporary Jew an Israelite or a Hebrew."



The Hellenic influence lies at the level of metaphysics. Also, whenever a Christian glorifies his/her religious roots, he/she is thinking about the first Christians, who where either of Jewish ascendency or «Jewishized».

Really? Many scholars have become aware that the translators of Scripture often mistranslated the word "Jew" from such words as "Ioudaioi" (meaning from, or being of: as a geographic area, Judean). The word Judean, mistranslated as "Jew" in the New Testament, never possessed a valid religious connotation, but was simply used to identify members of the native population of the geographic area known as Judea. Which comes back to the topic of Jesus being Jewish.

Were there Jews in the early church? Yes, but their numbers were insignificant. In fact Jersuleum was the smallest of all the early churches and Jewish membership became non-existant by 200AD. The biggest and most influential churches in early Christianity were in Rome and Constantnipole, THAT IS IN EUROPE!

Funny that a Jewish religion finds its main centers of gravity among Europeans than among Jews themselves. You're ignorance of history is absolutely remarkable!



The Hellenic aspect is thus nothing more than an European make-up upon a Semitic face. No Christian would ever dare to say that the Father is ZEUS or JUPITER, or that the epic war of the Iliad is more relevant than the Jewish escape from Egypt.

Why would they have to honor Zeus in order to be Greek? Aristotle and Plato did not believe in the Greek Gods but in one God. What they weren't actually Greek now?



Moreover, Christianity, being universalist, can never be considered as European as a national religion, like Religio Romana, Asatru, Romuva, etc..

What about Greek religion under Alexander the Great? In fact many historians contend that it was from Hellenistic paganism in this form that Christianity got its universalistic nature from. And wasn't it a 4th century BC Greek cynic who first declared "I'm a citizen of no nation, I'm a citizen of the world"?



Therefore, Christianity was never and will never be as European as any pagan religion. JEHOVA is not European, ZEUS is. Just like JUPITER, LUG, ODIN, PERKUNAS, PERUN

*sigh* Whatever!



Therefore, to claim that Geography is the only basis to say that Christianity is not European, is a demonstration of sheer stupid dishonesty.

Excuse me, you're the one making the same stupid accusations again and again despite all the evidence to the contrary. I've even quoted from historians and scholars; what have you quoted to back any of your ridiculas statements?



It was never a matter of Geography, but of ethnicity.

So can you only resort to race materialism in order to discredit the fact that Christianity grew out of Europe's intellectual heritage. Pathetic!

NormanBlood
Wednesday, December 24th, 2003, 04:57 AM
By all means find them. It's common knowledge among historians and scholars the strong Greek influence on Christianity since it's early days.

Its also common knowledge that christianity falls into the category of JUDEO-CHRISTIANITY. Whether you like it or not christianity has its roots IN JUDAISM! No false argument you can make will EVER change that. The idea of "turning the other cheak" is christian and jewish. Humbling one's self before one god is a JEWISH belief not a European one. In fact that initial meaning of "praying" comes from hebrew which means to "humble" oneself before jehovah (YAWEH) and be his servant. The European heathens were not "servants" to their gods. The morality of christianity is NOT European neither are the values.


Funny, the Jews say Christianity has more basis in Hellenism than anything Jewish.

The jews say a lot of things. In reality they are probably happier with Whites worshiping a desert god than our own gods.


I've already refuted so many times. The fact you continue to argue this despite all evidence against it is proof of your idiocy!

The point is he was not a WHITE EUROPEAN, which was the point I was getting at in the previous thread. But obviously believing in European born gods is not important for some of "us" who are apparently "for" the preservation of European cultural, racial and SPIRITUAL aspects.


Its the history of the Israelites. And as the 1980 Jewish Almanac says, "Strictly speaking it is incorrect to call an ancient Israelite a Jew or to call a contemporary Jew an Israelite or a Hebrew."

Is it the history of Europeans? There was an article in Macleans Magazine last year stating there is more evidence now than ever that the bible is made up of nothing but PURE JEWISH FOLKTALES. So why not stick to our own?!






1. Heathenism is a religion of the heath. It's not a religion of modern life in industrialized big cites and their suburbs and the Internet

And what is so good about industiralised big cities, their suburbs and the internet? What is wrong with the heath?


2. Heathenism is very local. If Europeans adopted the religions of their ancestors, the Celtic peoples would have their gods, the Nordic peoples theirs, the Romance nations theirs, the Greeks theirs, and so on.

Exactly, and I see nothing wrong with that. Why should Europeans just follow ONE religion? Europe was made up of different tribes and peoples as it is today, each group had its gods that represented the uniqueness of that group. I have no problem with "locality", in fact my hope is the world will one day regain that sense of community and kinship. I am by no means for a "Pan-European" religion.


They didn't have the systematic minds of modern people, I think.

actually Odinism was very much about knowledge gain and the Celts also had rather well developed practices, code of laws and ideas.

Tautalos
Friday, December 26th, 2003, 04:06 PM
So I have two objections to heathenism as a revitalizing force:

1. Heathenism is a religion of the heath. It's not a religion of modern life in industrialized big cites and their suburbs and the Internet

That is not a valid argument. The Religio Romana, for instances, is a State Religion, and it evolved from a rural one.
Industrialized societies are no obstacle to the restoration of ancient cults, since these cults can easily adapt to all the social and technological advancements.




2. Heathenism is very local. If Europeans adopted the religions of their ancestors, the Celtic peoples would have their gods, the Nordic peoples theirs, the Romance nations theirs, the Greeks theirs, and so on.

Quite right. That is one of the advantages that it have: it allows and even enhances the ethnic identity of each European Folk.




And e.g. is the Religio Romano really suitable for say a Spaniard, whose heritage might include Iberian, Celtic, Roman, Phoenecian, and maybe Moorish peoples?

Good question. Indeed, ethnic and racial mix causes these type of problems.
This problem haves, nevertheless, a simple resolution: the identity of the Folk lies in it's essence, and the Spaniards, just like the Portuguese, are essentially the result of the fusion between Romans and pre-Roman Indo-Europeans (proto-Celts, or Celtiberians, or, in any case, Celtic-related), and so, it's ideal religion is the worship of both Roman and Celtiberian Deities.




Or how about an Englishman, who might be descended from Celts, Normans, etc?

The English are, basically, Germanic, and so, their religion is Asatru, or, more specifically, one of it's variants, the Anglo-Saxon Heathenism.



And would Heathenism be revived as a centralized, organized religion (in which case it would have to be re-molded as such)? Or would it be a private religion of the hearth?

Both.





And also, so much has been lost. The Christians destroyed paganism and recorded very little. A little folklore is not enough to reconstruct a religion.

Actually, there is still some valid material. And the reconstruction is going on.

Tautalos
Friday, December 26th, 2003, 05:12 PM
By all means find them

Try to read Louis Rougier, for instances. As well as the vast majority of the historians... and, if it matters to you, take a look to what the priests say... as, for instances, the previous pope...




Funny, the Jews say Christianity has more basis in Hellenism than anything Jewish

Of course. To a white person, a mulatto looks like a black. To a black person, the same mulatto would be called «white».





I've already refuted so many times

You did not refute anything at all. Quite the contrary: you demonstrated your sheer incompentence and stupidity in all the cases.





The Christian notion of God is incompatible with the Jewish notion of God.

Essentially, the God is the same: Jehova. The Christians believe in the existence of the God who ordered genocides, in the Old Testament, but not in the existence of any European Deity.
Moreover, both the Jewish and the Christian conceptions of God show Him as being all powerful, perfect, creator of all the Universe - including the devil.




Its the history of the Israelites. And as the 1980 Jewish Almanac says, "Strictly speaking it is incorrect to call an ancient Israelite a Jew or to call a contemporary Jew an Israelite or a Hebrew."

That may be true in the religious aspect, but not in the ethnic one: today's Jews are Hebraic.
Jehova, Moses, David, Solomon, Abraham... precisely the same references.




The biggest and most influential churches in early Christianity were in Rome and Constantnipole, THAT IS IN EUROPE!

But it's origin is eastern and Jewish. Plus, it seems that, after all, YOU are the one basing your speech in a matter of Geography...




Funny that a Jewish religion finds its main centers of gravity among Europeans than among Jews themselves

In it's beginning, Christian religion was practiced by people of Jewish origin. The fact that you do not know this, or try to deny it (what a ridiculous process of brainwashing...) shows that you're ignorance of History is absolutely remarkable!





Why would they have to honor Zeus in order to be Greek?

Why would any Greek renounce to his/her own Gods in favour of foreign Gods?




Aristotle and Plato did not believe in the Greek Gods

Actually, Plato believed in the Hellenic Deities.


[/quote]What they weren't actually Greek now?[/quote]

Actually, Aristotle was never an Athenian citizen.

Moreover, you keep arguing as if all monotheisms were Christian, which is ridiculous. The Christian God, while being universalist, carries an ethnic baggage that all Christians accept: all Christians accept that the God of Jews is the only true God. No Hellenic philosopher ever believed that, before the Jewish influence.




What about Greek religion under Alexander the Great? In fact many historians contend that it was from Hellenistic paganism in this form that Christianity got its universalistic nature from.

Perhaps. Indeed, the Christians got the worst part of the ancient world.




Excuse me, you're the one making the same stupid accusations

I state facts that everybody know, and that neither you nor any other brainwashed creature can deny. Just go to learn History.




again and again despite all the evidence to the contrary

You did not present a single argument against the FACTS that:
- Jehova is common to both Christians and Jews.
- Moses, idem.
- Abraham, idem.
- Solomon, idem.
- All the Old Testament, ibidem.

You did never, ever, even dare to refer to this undeniable facts.



I've even quoted from historians and scholars

Unfortunately for you, none of them denied what I said above.





So can you only resort to race materialism

To qualify ethnicity as «race materialism» is utterly stupid and ignorant.

Tautalos
Friday, December 26th, 2003, 05:21 PM
Its also common knowledge that christianity falls into the category of JUDEO-CHRISTIANITY. Whether you like it or not christianity has its roots IN JUDAISM! No false argument you can make will EVER change that. The idea of "turning the other cheak" is christian and jewish. Humbling one's self before one god is a JEWISH belief not a European one. In fact that initial meaning of "praying" comes from hebrew which means to "humble" oneself before jehovah (YAWEH) and be his servant. The European heathens were not "servants" to their gods.

And Islam means precisely «Surrendering to God».
Some millenia before, the Semitic folks invading Egypt showed the same submission to their Gods.

All in all, Semitic is Semitic...





Is it the history of Europeans? There was an article in Macleans Magazine last year stating there is more evidence now than ever that the bible is made up of nothing but PURE JEWISH FOLKTALES. So why not stick to our own?!

Quite obvious.

Taras Bulba
Friday, December 26th, 2003, 08:15 PM
Its also common knowledge that christianity falls into the category of JUDEO-CHRISTIANITY. Whether you like it or not christianity has its roots IN JUDAISM! No false argument you can make will EVER change that.

Please produce any evidence of the notion of a "Judeo-Christianity" before the 19th century! Find it or shut up!

Taras Bulba
Friday, December 26th, 2003, 08:35 PM
Try to read Louis Rougier, for instances. As well as the vast majority of the historians... and, if it matters to you, take a look to what the priests say... as, for instances, the previous pope...

The previous Pope? Ha, I can resort to every Pope before Vatican II to back my position up. Hell try reading the writings of Pope Pius X on the Jews.

Plus I suggest you read James Williams Mendenhall's "Plato and Paul".


Of course. To a white person, a mulatto looks like a black. To a black person, the same mulatto would be called «white».


So you're fully denying the historical evidence that shows that Christianity had strong ties to Greek civilization since the beginning?



You did not refute anything at all. Quite the contrary: you demonstrated your sheer incompentence and stupidity in all the cases.


Whatever!



That may be true in the religious aspect, but not in the ethnic one: today's Jews are Hebraic.
Jehova, Moses, David, Solomon, Abraham... precisely the same references.


*sigh* I've already refuted this.



But it's origin is eastern and Jewish.

Even if true, within its first 20 years of existance Christianity shed whatever "Jewish" origins it had and was clearly ingrained in the Greek intellectual heritage.



In it's beginning, Christian religion was practiced by people of Jewish origin.


*sigh* I've also refuted this. I've also stated that the oldest Christian communities in the Middle East are Palestinian, Syrian, and Lebanonese; not Jewish. Plus even in scriptures before the Apostles leave for different areas of the world, the first Roman(who btw is a soldier) is converted.



The fact that you do not know this, or try to deny it (what a ridiculous process of brainwashing...) shows that you're ignorance of History is absolutely remarkable!

*sigh* I've already refuted this as well and you still make idiotic arguments.




Actually, Plato believed in the Hellenic Deities.

Actually he ridiculed the Gods and ridiculed Homer's works, which form the basis of Greek mythology.




What they weren't actually Greek now?

Actually, Aristotle was never an Athenian citizen.

Did I ask you if he was Athenian? No I asked you if he was Greek. Learn to read!



Moreover, you keep arguing as if all monotheisms were Christian, which is ridiculous.

Please point to where I said that you f*cking numbskull!



The Christian God, while being universalist, carries an ethnic baggage that all Christians accept: all Christians accept that the God of Jews is the only true God.

*sigh* I've already refuted and disproven so much of your idiocy. Your living proof of Proverbs 24:7

"Wisdom is too high for a fool: he openeth not his mouth in the gate."




Perhaps. Indeed, the Christians got the worst part of the ancient world.

So you fully admit that much of the sh*t you accuse Christianity of has origins in ancient Europe?



I state facts that everybody know, and that neither you nor any other brainwashed creature can deny. Just go to learn History.

*sigh*



You did not present a single argument against the FACTS that:
- Jehova is common to both Christians and Jews.
- Moses, idem.
- Abraham, idem.
- Solomon, idem.
- All the Old Testament, ibidem.

You did never, ever, even dare to refer to this undeniable facts.


*sigh* I've refuted this as well. Israelite and Jew are not the same as the Jews themselves admit.



Unfortunately for you, none of them denied what I said above.

Actually they do, you're just too stupid to see the connection. Oh well, Wisdom is too high for a fool.




To qualify ethnicity as «race materialism» is utterly stupid and ignorant.

Not when it applies to your dumbass definitions of "ethnicity" *sigh*

Tautalos
Sunday, December 28th, 2003, 02:49 AM
The previous Pope?

Try to avoid being so childish. The strategy of anti-conversation only ridicules you. The previous pope is the pope who was a pope before the present pope, John Paul II.




So you're fully denying the historical evidence that shows that Christianity had strong ties to Greek civilization since the beginning?

It depends of what you mean by «strong ties»: if, by that, you wanna say that the Christians called Zeus and not Jehova to the Father-God, then, you are... perhaps... lying...




*sigh* I've already refuted this.

You did not refute anything, except inside your mentally retarded brain.





Even if true, within its first 20 years of existance Christianity shed whatever "Jewish" origins it had

Christianity is still essentially Semitic - the previous pope said, quite clearly, «spiritually, we are all Semites».




*sigh* I've also refuted this.

You did not refute anything.




I've also stated that the oldest Christian communities in the Middle East are Palestinian, Syrian, and Lebanonese; not Jewish

Wrong statement. Go learn some History.




*sigh* I've already refuted this as well and you still make idiotic arguments.

You did not refute that as well. You just keep reppeating the same mindless lies.




Actually he ridiculed the Gods

NO, he did NEVER ridicule the Gods. Go learn some History at once, kid.



and ridiculed Homer's works, which form the basis of Greek mythology.

Mythology is one thing, religion is another. Plato said that some myths told by Homer were either wrong OR highly symbolic, i.e., they wanted to say another thing. Anyway, he distinguished between the myths told by Homer and the traditional rites, honouring the traditional Gods, Who, in the perfect city of Plato, ought to be honoured above all else. Read the Republic and the Laws.




Did I ask you if he was Athenian?

He was not an Athenian because he was not of Athenian origin. He was of BARBARIAN origin. Macedonian, or Thracian, I am not sure.





Please point to where I said that you f*cking numbskull!

You stupid asshole, you spoke about believing in one God only as if that was anti-Hellenic and «Christian-minded», in the previous message. At least, have the courage not to deny your own ridiculous words.




*sigh* I've already refuted and disproven

You did neither refute nor disproven absolutely nothing, except that there is some intelligence inside that degraded brain of yours.

"Wisdom is too high for a fool: he openeth not his mouth in the gate."

If that applies to me, in that case you are living under-soil, kid...




So you fully admit that much of the sh*t you accuse Christianity of has origins in ancient Europe?

No. What happened was that Christianity widespreaded the worst venoms of Greece, who were for the intellectual «consume» of some intellectuals.
Moreover, Christianity brought the Jewish religious intolerance to Europe, and that haves nothing to do with Greece.




*sigh* I've refuted this as well

No, you did not. Everybody knows that the Jews still call Jehova to their God, still consider David, Solomon, Abraham and Moses as their ancestors and prophets. It is amazing - it's like a Monty Python movie, actually - how ridiculously you try to deny evidences known by everybody.



Actually they do,

No, they don't. Don't be imbecile.




Not when it applies to your dumbass definitions of "ethnicity"

You do not even know what is ethnicity, stupid scum. Go study something about the subject.

Taras Bulba
Sunday, December 28th, 2003, 04:00 AM
It depends of what you mean by «strong ties»: if, by that, you wanna say that the Christians called Zeus and not Jehova to the Father-God, then, you are... perhaps... lying...

then you're ignorant of history.




You did not refute anything, except inside your mentally retarded brain.


Speak for yourself dumbass!




Christianity is still essentially Semitic - the previous pope said, quite clearly, «spiritually, we are all Semites».

"The Jews reject the One Faith of Jesus Christ."
Pope Gregory I

"The Jews are not "our dearest brothers."
Pope Innocent III

*sigh* I also hope you know that the Old Testament that Christians use is not the same as the one used by Jews. Jews use the Jaminian canon, which was written around 70AD in order to try to discredit the early Christians. They basically re-wrote the Old Testament, and took many significant books out of the Old Testament. It's off the Jaminan canon that Jewish traditions and the Talmud are based off. Ironically it was the Christians who preserved the original Old Testament. Kinda funny how Jews protect their "traditions"(which are not theirs to begin with) by rewriting and editing them, while Christians stand firm in their traditions in the face of opposition.



You did not refute anything.

Actually I did!




Wrong statement. Go learn some History.

*sigh* I suggest you learn history because you clearly don't know sh*t about the early church and that Jewish Christians never formed a singificant faction in the early church.



You did not refute that as well. You just keep reppeating the same mindless lies.

Whatever!



NO, he did NEVER ridicule the Gods. Go learn some History at once, kid.




Read the Republic and the Laws.

I have.




He was not an Athenian because he was not of Athenian origin. He was of BARBARIAN origin. Macedonian, or Thracian, I am not sure.

You're obviously a true idiot because I never any remark about Aristotle being an Athenian, I said by your definition of "being Greek", Aristotle was not a Greek according to your f*cked up world-view of what it means to be a Greek. Heraclitus denied the existance of the Greek gods and harshly condemned them as not worthy of worship.





No. What happened was that Christianity widespreaded the worst venoms of Greece, who were for the intellectual «consume» of some intellectuals.
Moreover, Christianity brought the Jewish religious intolerance to Europe, and that haves nothing to do with Greece.

Greeks and Romans were famous for their destructions of temples. Do I need to mention Julius Caesar's treatment of the Druids?



No, you did not. Everybody knows that the Jews still call Jehova to their God, still consider David, Solomon, Abraham and Moses as their ancestors and prophets.

Blacks claim the Egyptians as their ancestors, that doesn't make it true dipsh*t. The same is true with the Jews towards the Israelites.


http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/08193a.htm

"Politically and nationally the Babylonian captivity put an end for ever to the people of Israel. Even when, 350 years later, there was once more a Jewish state, those who formed it were not the people of Israel, not even the Jewish nation, but that portion which remained in the mother country of a great religious organization scattered over all Asia and Egypt " (Cornill).



It is amazing - it's like a Monty Python movie, actually - how ridiculously you try to deny evidences known by everybody.

No it's amazing that I quoted from the Jewish almanac itself claiming that theres no relationship between the Israelities and the Jews and you denied that claiming that indeed they are the same. You deny every piece of information that comes your way!



You do not even know what is ethnicity, stupid scum. Go study something about the subject.

Oh I do know something about ethnicity, and the true nature of ethnicity has nothing to do with your imbecile mind!

Saoirse
Sunday, December 28th, 2003, 04:06 AM
Now were insulting each other...

Tautalos
Monday, December 29th, 2003, 11:17 AM
then you're ignorant of history.

YOU are ignorant of History, kid. Ignorant and, when not ignorant - i.e., when informed «by force», so to speak - you are simply ridiculously dishonest.




Speak for yourself dumbass!

Actually, I speak for YOU, imbecile.




"The Jews reject the One Faith of Jesus Christ."
Pope Gregory I

"The Jews are not "our dearest brothers."
Pope Innocent III



«In Christ, we all descend from Abraham. Anti-semitism is unnacceptable for the Christian. Spiritually, we are all Semites.»
Pope Pio XI - January 6th, 1938.


How about that, boy?




I also hope you know that the Old Testament that Christians use is not the same as the one used by Jews.

Of course it is. What you talk about is just a matter of versions and translations. What really matters, is that the Christian bible states, quite clearly, that the chosen folk was the Jewish one, and that the only ture God was the Jewish one.

And, meanwhile, you still do not refute nothing. I would even bet that, after all that was written, you will come up with some mentally retarded excuse.





I suggest you learn history because you clearly don't know sh*t about the early church and

Go learn something about REAL History, kid, and not cheap revisionism written by anti-Semite Christians.





You're obviously a true idiot because I never any remark about Aristotle being an Athenian,

You are certainly a piece of asshole, because you think that you can run away so easily. YOU said that Aristotle was a Greek, and that I was not correct about Paganism as a National Religion because, according yourself, Aristotle was a monotheist, and so, «according to my opinion», not an example of a «real Hellene».
What you completely fail is your attempt to make believe that to believe in one God is the same thing, ethnically speaking, as believing in one FOREIGN God.




Heraclitus denied the existance of the Greek gods and harshly condemned them as not worthy of worship.

Another lie of yours.

Can't you ever produce a decent statement, kid? Does Christianity affects your mind in that you, that you are unable to speak the truth?...




Greeks and Romans were famous for their destructions of temples.

No, they were not.




Do I need to mention Julius Caesar's treatment of the Druids?

The Romans' treatment of the Druids was politically motivated, not religious.
Actually, some Roman soldiers did actually consecrate sacred ex-votes to Celtic Deities, such as EPONA and ENDOVELLICUS.




Blacks claim the Egyptians as their ancestors, that doesn't make it true dipsh*t. The same is true with the Jews towards the Israelites.

Quite a ridiculous comparison. Blacks do not speak the ancient Egyptian language, and their national Gods - of Yoruba, for instances - were not the Egyptian Deities, etc.. Meanwhile, ALL the Jews
- call Jehova to their God
- follow the laws that Moses showed them
- consider, as their ancestors, Abraham, David, Solomon, Isaiah, etc.
- SPEAK Hebraic.




"Politically and nationally the Babylonian captivity put an end for ever to the people of Israel. Even when, 350 years later, there was once more a Jewish state, those who formed it were not the people of Israel, not even the Jewish nation, but that portion which remained in the mother country of a great religious organization scattered over all Asia and Egypt " (Cornill).

Really? And which people was that? Did they learn Hebraic by correspondence? Were they just a bunch of mixed creatures that one day gathered at a corner of a tavern and said «Hey, let's be Jews!»?




No it's amazing that I quoted from the Jewish almanac itself claiming that theres no relationship between the Israelities and the Jews

It is amazing how ridiculous you can get. Blind faith produces things like you... you base your argumentation in a revisionist feebly sustented theory that the vast majority of the Jewish Folk DO NOT ACCEPT at all, and that is not accepted by the vast majority of the historians.




Oh I do know something about ethnicity,

Nothing at all, stupid kid.

Not even about Judaism, the root of your own religion, let alone ethnicity...

Taras Bulba
Monday, December 29th, 2003, 05:01 PM
YOU are ignorant of History, kid. Ignorant and, when not ignorant - i.e., when informed «by force», so to speak - you are simply ridiculously dishonest.

http://instagiber.net/smiliesdotcom/contrib/sarge/Whatever_anim.gif Whatever!



Actually, I speak for YOU, imbecile.

http://instagiber.net/smiliesdotcom/contrib/sarge/Whatever_anim.gif Whatever!






«In Christ, we all descend from Abraham. Anti-semitism is unnacceptable for the Christian. Spiritually, we are all Semites.»
Pope Pio XI - January 6th, 1938.


How about that, boy?


http://instagiber.net/smiliesdotcom/contrib/sarge/Whatever_anim.gif http://www.romancatholicism.org/jews.html

How about that, boy? http://instagiber.net/smiliesdotcom/contrib/sarge/Whatever_anim.gif



Of course it is. What you talk about is just a matter of versions and translations. What really matters, is that the Christian bible states, quite clearly, that the chosen folk was the Jewish one, and that the only ture God was the Jewish one.

http://instagiber.net/smiliesdotcom/contrib/sarge/Whatever_anim.gif Once again you've proven your idiocy. As the Jews themselves admit, theres a difference between Israelite and Jew.



And, meanwhile, you still do not refute nothing. I would even bet that, after all that was written, you will come up with some mentally retarded excuse.

http://instagiber.net/smiliesdotcom/contrib/sarge/Whatever_anim.gif Whatever!



Go learn something about REAL History, kid, and not cheap revisionism written by anti-Semite Christians.

http://instagiber.net/smiliesdotcom/contrib/sarge/Whatever_anim.gif http://instagiber.net/smiliesdotcom/contrib/sarge/Whatever_anim.gif




You are certainly a piece of asshole, because you think that you can run away so easily. YOU said that Aristotle was a Greek, and that I was not correct about Paganism as a National Religion because, according yourself, Aristotle was a monotheist, and so, «according to my opinion», not an example of a «real Hellene».
What you completely fail is your attempt to make believe that to believe in one God is the same thing, ethnically speaking, as believing in one FOREIGN God.

http://instagiber.net/smiliesdotcom/contrib/sarge/Whatever_anim.gif http://instagiber.net/smiliesdotcom/contrib/sarge/Whatever_anim.gif http://instagiber.net/smiliesdotcom/contrib/sarge/Whatever_anim.gif http://instagiber.net/smiliesdotcom/contrib/sarge/Whatever_anim.gif




Another lie of yours.

http://instagiber.net/smiliesdotcom/contrib/sarge/Whatever_anim.gif Why don't you read some history and find out!



Can't you ever produce a decent statement, kid? Does Christianity affects your mind in that you, that you are unable to speak the truth?...

http://instagiber.net/smiliesdotcom/contrib/sarge/Whatever_anim.gif I'm not the one here talking such rubbish!



No, they were not.

http://instagiber.net/smiliesdotcom/contrib/sarge/Whatever_anim.gif Yeah whatever, go read some history.




The Romans' treatment of the Druids was politically motivated, not religious.

http://instagiber.net/smiliesdotcom/contrib/sarge/Whatever_anim.gif So now we resort to "hate-crime" mentality to justify things? I'm sure Morris Dees would love to have you on his team.




Quite a ridiculous comparison. Blacks do not speak the ancient Egyptian language, and their national Gods - of Yoruba, for instances - were not the Egyptian Deities, etc.. Meanwhile, ALL the Jews
- call Jehova to their God
- follow the laws that Moses showed them
- consider, as their ancestors, Abraham, David, Solomon, Isaiah, etc.
- SPEAK Hebraic.


The Irish speak English, does that automatically make them Anglo-Saxon? Abraham wasn't Jewish, he was Syrian. As Moses himself said, "Tho shall speak and say before the Lord thy God: A syrian was my father." Deut.26:5 http://instagiber.net/smiliesdotcom/contrib/sarge/Whatever_anim.gif http://instagiber.net/smiliesdotcom/contrib/sarge/Whatever_anim.gif



Really? And which people was that? Did they learn Hebraic by correspondence? Were they just a bunch of mixed creatures that one day gathered at a corner of a tavern and said «Hey, let's be Jews!»?

http://instagiber.net/smiliesdotcom/contrib/sarge/Whatever_anim.gif You obviously don't know sh*t about history.



It is amazing how ridiculous you can get. Blind faith produces things like you... you base your argumentation in a revisionist feebly sustented theory that the vast majority of the Jewish Folk DO NOT ACCEPT at all, and that is not accepted by the vast majority of the historians.


http://instagiber.net/smiliesdotcom/contrib/sarge/Whatever_anim.gif Why do you spew such rubbish everytime I come up with evidence that refutes your pathetic arguments?



Nothing at all, stupid kid.

http://instagiber.net/smiliesdotcom/contrib/sarge/Whatever_anim.gif Whatever, why don't you read something about anthropology.



Not even about Judaism, the root of your own religion, let alone ethnicity...

http://instagiber.net/smiliesdotcom/contrib/sarge/Whatever_anim.gif Whatever.

Allenson
Monday, December 29th, 2003, 05:40 PM
Keep it civil everyone!

Milesian
Monday, December 29th, 2003, 06:19 PM
Keep it civil everyone!

Yes, I second that. Both of you please discuss and debate as much as you wish, but don't let it degenerate to pettiness.

Tautalos
Monday, December 29th, 2003, 06:41 PM
How about that, boy?

To compare the authority of the Supreme Leader of the Catholics with the authority of a given site written by extreme-right catholics, is nothing more another demonstration of your despair and lack of arguments.




As the Jews themselves admit, theres a difference between Israelite and Jew.

Once again, you do not know what are you talking about. Learn, kid: Israel was a Jewish kingdom, as well as Judah. They were both Jewish, and the contemporary Jews believe so much to descend after those same Jews that their present country is named Israel.






I'm not the one here talking such rubbish!

Listen, Pushkin, kid, ALL that you do here is to talk rubbish.




So now we resort to "hate-crime" mentality to justify things?

Which hate-crime? I am talking about POLITICS - imperial policy to submit the Gauls POLITICALLY. That haves nothing to do with hate-crime.




The Irish speak English, does that automatically make them Anglo-Saxon?

No, BECAUSE they still have their national language, the Goidelic, or Gaidhlig.




Abraham wasn't Jewish, he was Syrian

And the Syrians were Semites as well. Learn History.






I come up with evidence that refutes

Wake up, kid. That never happened.

Taras Bulba
Tuesday, December 30th, 2003, 01:24 AM
To compare the authority of the Supreme Leader of the Catholics with the authority of a given site written by extreme-right catholics, is nothing more another demonstration of your despair and lack of arguments.

Obviously you didn't bother to read the website, since it clearly gave quotes from Popes, Church fathers, saints, and theologians throughout the ages condmening the Jews. All you can do in response is produce one quote from one Pope.




And the Syrians were Semites as well. Learn History.

And your point is? What all Semites are now Jews? http://instagiber.net/smiliesdotcom/contrib/sarge/Whatever_anim.gif





[/QUOTE]

Saoirse
Tuesday, December 30th, 2003, 02:26 AM
The Jews are a mixed people.

Tautalos
Tuesday, December 30th, 2003, 12:40 PM
Obviously you didn't bother to read the website, since it clearly gave quotes from Popes, Church fathers, saints, and theologians throughout the ages condmening the Jews.

Can't you never understand the DIFFERENCE between RELIGIOUS attacks and ETHNIC attacks? OF COURSE they condemn the Jews, i.e., those who follow Judaism. That does not mean that they refuse the Jewish origin of Jesus, of Moses, of Abraham, of David, Isaac, etc.. Or the Jewish unique revelation of Jehova: according all the Christians, the Jews were the chosen folk until the coming of Jesus, i.e., the Jews had real contact with the Divine, and the ancestors of Europe did not.

No matter how much you try to hide it, but YOU do believe that.





All you can do in response is produce one quote from one Pope.

And that is more than enough. This is not a Democracy, and the authority of a Pope is undeniable. Moreover, NONE of the previous popes deny what that Pope said. None of them.






What all Semites are now Jews?

Jews are Semites. There are other Semites, the Arabs. In the ancient world, there were also the Syrians, the Babilonians, the Phoenicians.
Today, I see no reason to consider the Jews as being worst than the Arabs.

What is really important is to preserve one's identity. In our case, it is Indo-European, and so, it ought to be kept alive in us, above any Semitic influence, Jewish or not Jewish.