PDA

View Full Version : Polish threat to block EU vote on constitution



Loki
Friday, December 5th, 2003, 12:06 AM
http://www.guardian.co.uk/eu/story/0,7369,1099452,00.html

Polish threat to block EU vote on constitution

New member stands firm against German pressure

Ian Traynor in Warsaw
Thursday December 4, 2003
The Guardian

The Polish foreign minister warned yesterday that Warsaw will block overall agreement on a new European constitution at a summit in Brussels next week as he attacked the patronising tone of western European governments towards their neighbours in the east.
In an interview with the Guardian, Wlodzimierz Cimoszewicz reserved special criticism for the German chancellor, Gerhard Schröder, accusing him of failing to understand how the EU functions.

With negotiations about the constitution ongoing, Warsaw is insisting that it wants to retain the system agreed three years ago which allocated the country 27 EU votes. Germany has led demands to scrap this formula because of criticism that it is overgenerous to Poland.

But Mr Cimoszewicz suggested that the dispensation agreed at an EU summit in France three years ago was non-negotiable. Warsaw might agree to review the system in a few years in the light of "practical experience", he said.

The battle over voting rights in an expanded union of 25 is the biggest hurdle to a breakthrough at next week's Brussels summit on the EU constitutional treaty drafted by Valéry Giscard D'Estaing.

Mr Cimoszewicz said the row should be bracketed out of next week's negotiations to avoid a possible failure to adopt the new treaty.

"We are very close to conclusions," he said of the treaty summit. "In fact, the only really difficult issue that is still far from being solved is the voting system...

"The situation is not easy. There is very little space for any compromise. The positions presented by countries are so different."

Although Poland is not yet formally an EU member, it is already flexing the muscle conferred by becoming the sixth biggest member of 25. By a large margin it is the biggest of the 10 countries joining next May. Its tough negotiating stance is already attracting disparaging comment from west European governments.

Berlin is determined to overhaul the voting system to reflect Germany's size in the union.

"We're not just going to be silent," Mr Cimoszewicz said.

"The irritation we see in some European countries is caused by the fact that no one even thought that Poland should be treated as a partner.

"Unfortunately, there are still many people in the European Union who think about enlargement as a kind of grace offered to the poorer brothers in Europe."

The simmering tension boiled over last week when the EU commissioner in charge of enlargement, Günther Verheugen, who is German, snapped angrily at Polish MPs: "If this is the way Poland begins its membership of the EU, I regret my efforts on Poland's behalf."

The comment sparked outrage in Warsaw, but Mr Schröder recently voiced incredulity at the notion of Poland and Spain, whose combined populations are just under Germany's 80 million, between them having a total of 54 votes to Germany's 29 if no overhaul is agreed. Asked about Mr Schröder's remarks, Mr Cimoszewicz snapped: "That's a misunderstanding."

The new treaty proposes to replace such voting quotas with a system carrying decisions when at least half of the member countries, representing at least 60% of the EU population, are in favour.

Warsaw has dug in its heels, arguing that the place for reflecting a member state's size is the European parliament and not in the decision-taking processes of the European council, which brings together heads of state and government. Germany has almost double the number of Poland's European MPs.

"Let's not mix different elements of European structures," the Polish minister said. "The system must reflect various values, but not neglect or ignore the equal rights of the states, the members."

The tough stance enjoys broad support at home and any concessions could fatally wound an already weak government. "We're afraid of making the impression that we lied to the public in the referendum [on joining the EU]," said Adam Michnik, the influential editor of the bestselling newspaper Gazeta Wyborcza. "Our government will certainly not sign the treaty."

Mr Cimoszewicz said he had reached agreement with Britain, increasingly Poland's main ally on the issue, that the dispute should be deferred until 2009 when the system agreed in Nice is to lapse .

"I can hardly imagine any other solution," he said, adding: "There is no really good reason to have such a hard controversy over the idea of changing the voting system now.

"It would be really rational if we wait a little, get some practical experience and then decide what is best."

friedrich braun
Friday, December 5th, 2003, 10:40 AM
I'm not surprised at another fine example of Polak megalomania and delusions of grandeur. I never understood why the West cares about Polaks so much.

But anyway, I hope that the whole EU monstrosity dies a well deserved death --if Polaks help it happen, I might even put in a good word for them (if properly medicated).

Loki
Tuesday, December 9th, 2003, 12:36 AM
http://www.guardian.co.uk/germany/article/0,2763,1102226,00.html

Germany immovable in row over EU voting rights

Luke Harding
Monday December 8, 2003
The Guardian
Germany's chancellor, Gerhard Schröder, last night set the stage for a major diplomatic row at a summit later this week when he said Germany would not back down in a dispute over EU voting rights.
The chancellor said that he was "immovable" over the issue, which has placed Germany and France on a collision course with Poland.

Speaking in Berlin after a meeting with the Italian prime minister, Silvio Berlusconi, whose country holds the EU presidency, Mr Schröder said he would not agree "a deal at any cost" when EU leaders meet in Brussels on Friday.

"I'm happy that the Italian presidency sees the question of voting rights exactly as Germany does," he said. "We must stick to the result of the [EU constitutional] convention." He added: "This is a question on which we are not movable."

Poland, which joins the EU in May, and Spain are insisting that the EU stick to an agree ment made in Nice in 2000 which gives them 27 votes in EU decision making - almost as many as much bigger countries such as Germany, Britain, France and Italy, which get 29 votes each.

The draft constitution drawn up earlier this year recommends that the treaty be abandoned. Instead, it suggests, decisions may be adopted if at least half the EU states, representing at least 60% of the EU population, are in favour, following the accession of 10 new countries next year.

In an interview with the Guardian last week, Poland's foreign minister, Wlodzimierz Cimoszewicz, said Germany had adopted a patronising attitude to its eastern neighbours, and Mr Schröder did not understand how the EU worked.

"Unfortunately, there are still many people in the European Union who think about enlargement as a kind of grace offered to the poorer brothers in Europe," he said.

Poland wants the existing system to carry on until 2009, when the Nice Treaty expires - a position supported by Britain.

The German argument is that it is absurd for Poland, which has a population of 38 million, to have almost as much influence in the new EU as Germany, with 83 million people.

Although Poland is not yet formally an EU member, it will be the sixth-biggest of 25 when the union enlarges in May, and it is already flexing its muscles.

EU leaders are also divided over a proposal to cut the EU's executive commission to 15 members when the group expands. Larger countries are resisting the smaller members' demands to have their own commissioner.

Yesterday Mr Berlusconi said he still thought a deal on voting rights was possible.

"We truly hope that in Brussels, even at the last minute, an agreement can be found... so that Europe can have a dignity equal to all other world powers," he said.

Johnny Reb
Tuesday, December 9th, 2003, 01:06 AM
Why didn't they figure out it was a flawed system before promising it to Poland? It doesn't take a rocket science to see it's unfair. Now Poland has signed up, and they're already changing the rules. :-(

Johnny Reb
Tuesday, December 9th, 2003, 01:19 AM
Megalomania says the Hitlerite! As I said in my response to Loki's latest article on this matter, the Poles were given this awesome deal as incentive to join, and now they're trying to back out of it. Don't blame to Poles. You would be lucky to have such an enthoconscious people holding that much sway. Seems that all France and Germany have done with their power is let in hordes of muslims.

Loki
Tuesday, December 9th, 2003, 01:19 AM
Why didn't they figure out it was a flawed system before promising it to Poland? It doesn't take a rocket science to see it's unfair. Now Poland has signed up, and they're already changing the rules. :-(

Exactly. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to see that Germany has had a bad deal, considering its large population. Even greedy and arrogant Poland can figure that one out. Better yet, let's not allow Poland into the EU at all.

Johnny Reb
Tuesday, December 9th, 2003, 01:26 AM
Do you know what an indian giver is? It's not greedy and arrogant to accept a good deal, and then be angry when they try and take it away. I would fully support Poland not being in the EU though. On that we agree!

Loki
Tuesday, December 9th, 2003, 01:27 AM
Megalomania says the Hitlerite! As I said in my response to Loki's latest article on this matter, the Poles were given this awesome deal as incentive to join, and now they're trying to back out of it. Don't blame to Poles. You would be lucky to have such an enthoconscious people holding that much sway. Seems that all France and Germany have done with their power is let in hordes of muslims.

Johnny Reb, do you honestly believe that a country with a population of 38 million should have equal say as one with 83 million?

Poland is only "ethnoconscious" as far as its own people are concerned. They don't give a shit about Germans or anyone else.

Loki
Tuesday, December 9th, 2003, 01:29 AM
Do you know what an indian giver is? It's not greedy and arrogant to accept a good deal, and then be angry when they try and take it away. I would fully support Poland not being in the EU though. On that we agree!

I agree that it was stupid to give Poland false hopes in the beginning, by misleadingly saying they would have as much say as Germany. That is ridiculous, and should never have been promised in the first place. I just can't figure out these politicians. They're crazy.

Johnny Reb
Tuesday, December 9th, 2003, 01:30 AM
Johnny Reb, do you honestly believe that a country with a population of 38 million should have equal say as one with 83 million?

Poland is only "ethnoconscious" as far as its own people are concerned. They don't give a shit about Germans or anyone else.

I have agreed with you that it's not fair. I'm only arguing that in principle, it is unfair for the EU to have offered Poland such a sweet deal as the terms for it's joining, and then to try and change it once they're in.

Johnny Reb
Tuesday, December 9th, 2003, 01:32 AM
I agree that it was stupid to give Poland false hopes in the beginning, by misleadingly saying they would have as much say as Germany. That is ridiculous, and should never have been promised in the first place. I just can't figure out these politicians. They're crazy.

I fully concur. I don't think the EU will be good for anybody though. If it keeps up, Europe will turn into the United States.

PS Should we merge these two threads? They're both practically the same.

Loki
Tuesday, December 9th, 2003, 01:32 AM
I have agreed with you that it's not fair. I'm only arguing that in principle, it is unfair for the EU to have offered Poland such a sweet deal as the terms for it's joining, and then to try and change it once they're in.

Agreed, too.

Loki
Tuesday, December 9th, 2003, 01:34 AM
PS Should we merge these two threads? They're both practically the same.

Good idea.

Stríbog
Tuesday, December 9th, 2003, 01:56 AM
Poland is only "ethnoconscious" as far as its own people are concerned. They don't give a shit about Germans or anyone else.

Germany used to be only ethnoconscious as far as all German-speakers were concerned, so they aren't in a position to bitch and whine. They didn't give a shit about anyone else. Today, though, Germany isn't even ethnoconscious at all. From bad to worse, eh?

Loki
Tuesday, December 9th, 2003, 02:00 AM
Germany used to be only ethnoconscious as far as all German-speakers were concerned, so they aren't in a position to bitch and whine. They didn't give a shit about anyone else. Today, though, Germany isn't even ethnoconscious at all. From bad to worse, eh?

Thanks for your contribution, Mr Anti Teuton. Have you finished reading your Torah for the day?

Stríbog
Tuesday, December 9th, 2003, 02:05 AM
Thanks for your contribution, Mr Anti Teuton. Have you finished reading your Torah for the day?

I was actually lamenting the fact that Germany went from not respecting its neighbors to losing all sense of identity (i.e. from bad, to worse). I fail to see how that makes me Jewish. Nice juvenile ad hominem attack, though. :-D

Loki
Tuesday, December 9th, 2003, 02:10 AM
I fail to see how that makes me Jewish.

I know. Reading the Torah doesn't necessarily make you Jewish. My apologies.


Nice juvenile ad hominem attack, though. :-D

It is no attack at all... actually a compliment for you.

friedrich braun
Tuesday, December 9th, 2003, 02:31 AM
Germany used to be only ethnoconscious as far as all German-speakers were concerned, so they aren't in a position to bitch and whine. They didn't give a shit about anyone else. Today, though, Germany isn't even ethnoconscious at all. From bad to worse, eh?

Should the Germans have been "ethnoconscious" about non-Germans?

Anyway, what's the problem then? You should rejoice at this outcome! (I mean whatever is bad for Germans and Germany automatically gladens your heart! Rejoice, I say!)

Loki: it's not the Torah he's reading, it's the Talmud.

A few months on a board, a board that has become overwhelmingly Slav, have sufficed to turn a weak, unstable, confused American teenager into a staunch Slavophile and pan-Slavicist.

No German worthy of the name will ever settle for anything less:

http://www.zum.de/whkmla/histatlas/germany/kaiser.gif

Stríbog
Tuesday, December 9th, 2003, 03:04 AM
I know. Reading the Torah doesn't necessarily make you Jewish. My apologies.



It is no attack at all... actually a compliment for you.

Fundamentalist Christians hold the Torah in high esteem, do they not? Are either of you in any place to judge MY change of opinions?

Taras Bulba
Tuesday, December 9th, 2003, 03:09 AM
A few months on a board, a board that has become overwhelmingly Slav, have sufficed to turn a weak, unstable, confused American teenager into a staunch Slavophile and pan-Slavicist.

Is Stribog actually Slavic or of Slavic decent?

Stríbog
Tuesday, December 9th, 2003, 03:09 AM
Should the Germans have been "ethnoconscious" about non-Germans?
Loki seems to think Poles should be ethnoconscious about non-Poles, so I inverted the situation. You guys can't handle it, obviously.



Anyway, what's the problem then? You should rejoice at this outcome! (I mean whatever is bad for Germans and Germany automatically gladens your heart! Rejoice, I say!)

Every time I say something positive about Germany, you reject it out of hand and say I should be saying negative things. Whenever I say things which you take as negative, it reinforces your preconception that I am 'inherently anti-German.' Good 4th-grade debating skills. You hear only what you want to hear.



A few months on a board, a board that has become overwhelmingly Slav, have sufficed to turn a weak, unstable, confused American teenager into a staunch Slavophile and pan-Slavicist.


I'm not a pan-Slavist. And I've been on the board a lot longer than you have. My change in perspective occurred slowly and with reflection.
Now why don't you address that fact that both of you have changed opinions too?

Loki
Tuesday, December 9th, 2003, 08:21 AM
Every time I say something positive about Germany, you reject it out of hand and say I should be saying negative things.

You never say anything positive about Germany, England or Ireland. Don't make me laugh.


I'm not a pan-Slavist.

I know. You're a Likudnik. :-D


Now why don't you address that fact that both of you have changed opinions too?

Since I've been to Skadi, I haven't changed any of my fundamental views. And as far as I know, neither has friedrich.

Stríbog
Tuesday, December 9th, 2003, 08:43 AM
You never say anything positive about Germany, England or Ireland. Don't make me laugh.


Why don't you ask Njörd about it?




Since I've been to Skadi, I haven't changed any of my fundamental views. And as far as I know, neither has friedrich.

That's because neither of you have been here nearly as long as I have. :-D
Freddy has only been here what, a month or two? I was referring to his posts at the Gene Expression forum that someone else brought up.

Loki
Tuesday, December 9th, 2003, 09:02 AM
Why don't you ask Njörd about it?

I don't need to ask Njörd about what I can observe with my own plain eyes. Additionally, I have a gift to read between the lines. You often say things people want to hear, just to add to your personal acclaim. Hence you may have said some nice things to attempt for Njörd to like you more, because it would suit you politically. You can't fool me anymore, though.


That's because neither of you have been here nearly as long as I have. :-D


I have been reading Aryan Dawn for LONG before I even registered on the site with "Loki".

Stríbog
Tuesday, December 9th, 2003, 09:16 AM
Additionally, I have a gift to read between the lines. You often say things people want to hear, just to add to your personal acclaim. Hence you may have said some nice things to attempt for Njörd to like you more, because it would suit you politically. You can't fool me anymore, though.



I have been reading Aryan Dawn for LONG before I even registered on the site with "Loki".

ROFL a gift? Your 'gift' apparently missed some positive things I said recently on this forum, not in private. You and Freddy like to ignore things I say that don't mesh with your view of me as an evil traitor. And what 'personal acclaim' do I even have or care about? It's a fricking webboard :- P

Vetinari
Tuesday, December 9th, 2003, 07:35 PM
Exactly. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to see that Germany has had a bad deal, considering its large population. Even greedy and arrogant Poland can figure that one out. Better yet, let's not allow Poland into the EU at all.

I thought that one of the purposes of Skadi was to bring the various European groups together. By attacking any group - whether it be Slavic, Germanic or Celtic - all we are doing is helping the Jews divide up Europeans even more than they already are. Remember that when Europeans fight amongst themselves the only people who win are the Jews!

Loki
Tuesday, December 9th, 2003, 08:57 PM
I thought that one of the purposes of Skadi was to bring the various European groups together. By attacking any group - whether it be Slavic, Germanic or Celtic - all we are doing is helping the Jews divide up Europeans even more than they already are. Remember that when Europeans fight amongst themselves the only people who win are the Jews!

Skadi does not have the same "mentality" than, for example, Stormfront. We allow for criticism to be expressed towards any group of people.

Johnny Reb
Tuesday, December 9th, 2003, 09:41 PM
"Greedy and arrogant Poland" is not constructive criticism. If the roles were reversed, I have no doubt in my mind that you would take Germany's side and become furious if somebody referred to them as greedy and arrogant.

Loki
Tuesday, December 9th, 2003, 09:46 PM
"Greedy and arrogant Poland" is not constructive criticism. If the roles were reversed, I have no doubt in my mind that you would take Germany's side and become furious if somebody referred to them as greedy and arrogant.

Well you are wrong. Poland is greedy and arrogant in this instance, regardless of my personal bias.

Johnny Reb
Tuesday, December 9th, 2003, 10:09 PM
Well then I prefer to think of it as Poland sticking to her guns and attempting to exert dominance in a hostile atmosphere. Much better than the alternative of being a spineless bootlick begging for tablescraps from Brussels.

Loki
Tuesday, December 9th, 2003, 10:15 PM
Well then I prefer to think of it as Poland sticking to her guns and attempting to exert dominance in a hostile atmosphere. Much better than the alternative of being a spineless bootlick begging for tablescraps from Brussels.

Hardly a "hostile atmosphere". Remember, nobody is forcing Poland to "bootlick begging for the tablescraps of Brussels". The EU has extended a hand of acceptance and friendliness to Poland, and joining the EU would probably lift Poland out of its miserable poverty. What thanks is returned to the generous EU countries like Germany? Arrogance!

Beggars can't be choosers!