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emperorlives
Saturday, August 12th, 2006, 07:18 AM
I know of the Norman lords that took control of Southern Ireland, but did they intermingle enough to be considered Germanic now?

INS
Wednesday, August 16th, 2006, 12:31 AM
I know of the Norman lords that took control of Southern Ireland, but did they intermingle enough to be considered Germanic now?

I don't know if they intermingled enough to consider the presant day population of County Cork as "Germanic", however the legacy of the Norman conquests is still presant today in the form of surnames of Norman and Cambro-Norman origin which are found in vast numbers all over County Cork and County Kerry.

Dropkick
Thursday, September 21st, 2006, 01:48 AM
I don't think so.

Cork and Kerry (south west region) has unique Irish accents and Gaelic is spoken in many areas.

Oswiu
Thursday, September 21st, 2006, 02:30 AM
I know of the Norman lords that took control of Southern Ireland, but did they intermingle enough to be considered Germanic now?

Lords are Lords, and don't always make much of an impression on their surrounding peasantry genetically speaking. There will of course have been the odd er... 'coupling' here and there, but I wouldn't go on about that too much. So much for blood. Culturally, the area's not in the slightest bit Germanic. The first wave of Normans were very rapidly Gaelicised anyway, becoming largely indistinguishable save in their names from the native aristocracy.

However, considering the Germanic contribution to the local genepool, I'd far sooner look to the Norse. It seems they established themselves in Cork town. I don't suppose it was anything like as significant a Norse settlement as Dublin or Limerick, but it's on the map, nevertheless!
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/e/e7/Www.wesleyjohnston.com-users-ireland-maps-historical-map850.gif
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/e/e7/Www.wesleyjohnston.com-users-ireland-maps-historical-map850.gif

INS
Saturday, September 23rd, 2006, 02:28 AM
I don't think so.

Cork and Kerry (south west region) has unique Irish accents and Gaelic is spoken in many areas.

The fact that many areas of Cork and Kerry speak An Gaeilge has little to do with anything, Many Norse words made there way one way or the other into "Gaelic".

Examples....

Irish _ Old Norse _ English

Larla _ Jarl _ Lord


Garrdha _ Gardr _ Garden


Ponair _ Baunir _ Beans


Ancaire _ Akkeri _ Anchor


Bad _ Bátr _ Boat



Stizir _ Styri _ Rudder


Trosc _ Thorburnskr _ Cod



Dorz _ Dorg _ Fishing Line


Margadh _ Markadr _ Market


Pinginn _ Penningr _ Penny


Scilling _ Skillingr _ Shilling



Scuird _ Skyrta _ Cloak or tunic



Brog _ Brók _ Shoe

Oswiu
Saturday, September 23rd, 2006, 02:41 AM
Trosc _ Thorburnskr _ Cod
Hmm, I wonder at the connection between this one and the Russian word Treska - a sea fish, that I've seen translated as 'Hake' but have no idea what a hake is!

Pinginn _ Penningr _ Penny

Ultimately this is an English word. I read it was from Pending, i.e. something belonging to or issuing from Penda, our great Heathen King of Myrce. :thumbup

INS
Saturday, September 23rd, 2006, 02:46 AM
However, considering the Germanic contribution to the local genepool, I'd far sooner look to the Norse. It seems they established themselves in Cork town. I don't suppose it was anything like as significant a Norse settlement as Dublin or Limerick, but it's on the map, nevertheless!


Ostman Cork



The Vikings and the monastic community eventually arrived at a form of peaceful coexistence. Indeed the seafaring and trading abilities of the Vikings proved to be a boon to the monastery which they provided with wine, salt and other commodities. In 914 A.D. there was a massive raid on Cork and Munster from Scandinavia and it is conjectured that some members of this raiding party expropriated the existing Viking community.



By the 12 th century the descendants of the original settlers had intermarried with the native Irish and had become known as the Ostmen or Eastmen. They had established Cork as an important trading centre and its importance was enhanced with the coming to power in the 12 th century of the MacCarthys of Desmond who established Cork as their capital. The MacCarthys built a residence and fortress near Cork. In Latin this fortress was called vetus castellarum. This is an exact translation of the Irish sean dún, or old fort, and may be identified with the present-day Shandon area of Cork. The Ostmen of Cork acknowledged the overlordship of the MacCarthy kings of Desmond but would appear to have retained some form of autonomy.



It is known that the Ostmen built a fortification on the south island in the Lee and it is thought that this may have served as a template for the wall of Cork, which was built during the Norman era.



Gina Johnson, an archaeologist and expert on the development of Cork, has described Hiberno-Norse Cork in the following terms ‘…it is likely that the town consisted of formalised rows of wattle-walled houses fronting one or more streets. The Vikings probably defined the limits of their settlement possibly with a wattle wall or earthen enclosure surrounding the south island’. At this time the north island of the Lee, known as Dungarvan and identified with the area around the present-day North Main Street, was regarded as being outside the city itself.



Ostman Cork was not fated to have a long history. The last known leader of Ostman Cork, Gilbert mac Turgar, was killed in a sea battle near Youghal in 1173. In 1177, the Ostmen of Cork suffered a fate common to many conquered peoples before and since. Their property was confiscated and they were expelled from the city of Cork, when the city was taken by an invading army of warriors, the Normans.


Norman Cork

1169 is one of the most famous dates in the history of Ireland. In that year Normans from Wales landed at Bannow Bay in Wexford and began the Norman conquest of Ireland. With their superior military technology and organisation, the Normans made inroads against the Irish and Hiberno-Norse. In 1171, many of the provincial kings took an oath of fealty to Henry II of England, including Dermot MacCarthy, King of Munster and overlord of Ostman Cork. At the Council of Oxford in 1177, Henry II granted the kingdom of Cork to Robert FitzStephen and Milo de Cogan, but he reserved the city of Cork for himself. An army led by FitzStephen and de Cogan arrived at Cork City in 1177 and took the city, thus beginning the Norman era of the history of Cork. Prince John, Lord of Ireland, visited Ireland in 1185 and sometime around that date granted a charter to Cork City which made Cork a corporate town with powers of local government. This status has been retained by Cork since that time to the present day.



The Normans constructed a wall on the south island of the Lee in 1182, possibly based on the former Ostman defensive structure. Over time this wall was extended and the entire mediaeval city centre became one of the great walled towns of Ireland.

Theudiskaz
Saturday, September 23rd, 2006, 02:49 AM
Ultimately this is an English word. I read it was from Pending, i.e. something belonging to or issuing from Penda, our great Heathen King of Myrce. :thumbup
Really...interesting. I found this on the online etymology dictionary.

O.E. pening, penig "penny," from P.Gmc. *panninggaz (cf. O.N. penningr, Swed. pänning, O.Fris. panning, M.Du. pennic, O.H.G. pfenning, Ger. Pfennig, not recorded in Goth., where skatts is used instead), of unknown origin. The English coin was originally set at one-twelfth of a shilling and was of silver, later copper, then bronze. There are two plural forms: pennies of individual coins, pence collectively. In translations it rendered various foreign coins of small denomination, esp. L. denarius, whence comes its abbreviation d. As Amer.Eng. colloquial for cent, it is recorded from 1889. Penniless "destitute" is attested from c.1310. Pennyweight is O.E. penega gewiht, originally the weight of a silver penny. Penny-a-liner "writer for a journal or newspaper" is attested from 1834. Penny dreadful "cheap and gory fiction" dates from c.1870. Phrase penny-wise and pound-foolish is recorded from 1607. I won't rule out your explanation though, *Panningaz is, after all, only a theoretical reconstruction.

INS
Saturday, September 23rd, 2006, 02:56 AM
Hmm, I wonder at the connection between this one and the Russian word Treska - a sea fish, that I've seen translated as 'Hake' but have no idea what a hake is!

I don't wonder at all, there are always going to be instances of over-lapping....





Ultimately this is an English word. I read it was from Pending, i.e. something belonging to or issuing from Penda, our great Heathen King of Myrce. :thumbup

Yes but Pinginn and Penningr are not English words, It goes without saying that every language is going to have it's own term and the Norse and Irish version are almost identical in pronunciation.

Oswiu
Saturday, September 23rd, 2006, 03:18 AM
Really...interesting. I found this on the online etymology dictionary.
I won't rule out your explanation though, *Panningaz is, after all, only a theoretical reconstruction.

I bow to the authority of a great Anglo-Saxonist, Frank Stenton, in his 1943 "Anglo-Saxon England" pp220-1;

{concerning the earliest English coinage} "the only royal names which can be identified with any probability in the series are those of Eorpwald of East Anglia, Penda of Mercia and AEthelred his son. By modern students the coins are generally described as sceattas, but the use of the word 'penny' in Ine's laws for the smallest unit of currency suggests that this was the name by which these pieces were then known. It is also possible that the word 'penny', of which the oldest form is pending, is actually derived from the name of Penda, and was originally applied to coins struck by his authority. In Old Irish the word oiffing, which is a parallel formation from Offa, was used for the same purpose.* If the derivation of penny from Penda is correct-and no other satisfactory explanation has yet been offered-the fact that the word was current in northern France in the eighth century becomes unexpected evidence of English trade with Merovingian Gaul.

*B.Dickins Leeds Studies in English and Kindred Languages, i.20-1"