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nätdeutsch
Tuesday, August 8th, 2006, 05:16 AM
ive read that a rounded occiput is very indicitive of a nordic predominence. my cephalic index is 78, but my occiput is not incredibly rounded. how can i classify as nordid with a less than ultra-rounded occiput. (i was also classified as having slight borreby and dinarid influence, but obviously not much with a cephalic index of 78.)
thanks

Theudiskaz
Tuesday, August 8th, 2006, 05:39 AM
Not all Nordids have an "ultra-rounded" occiput. But a strongly rounded occiput is a typical Nordid feature. The fact that yours is not so round could very well be due to Dinaric influence.

Dr. Solar Wolff
Tuesday, August 8th, 2006, 07:31 AM
ive read that a rounded occiput is very indicitive of a nordic predominence. my cephalic index is 78, but my occiput is not incredibly rounded. how can i classify as nordid with a less than ultra-rounded occiput. (i was also classified as having slight borreby and dinarid influence, but obviously not much with a cephalic index of 78.)
thanks

A cerphalic index of 78 might just be more of a problem for a Nordic classification than a rounded occiput.

nätdeutsch
Tuesday, August 8th, 2006, 03:38 PM
what does that mean?

A cerphalic index of 78 might just be more of a problem for a Nordic classification than a rounded occiput.

Skalagrim
Tuesday, August 8th, 2006, 07:48 PM
A cerphalic index of 78 might just be more of a problem for a Nordic classification than a rounded occiput.


....The cephalic index mean of the modern Hallstatt Nordid is low mesocephalic (C.I. ca. 77), although dolichocephaly is not uncommon among individuals....


...Possessing a cephalic index of 75.0 to 79.9 (77.78 to 80.00 in the French system); intermediate in head form. Mesocephaly is the nominal form, and a mesocephalic individual is referred to as a mesocephal.....

http://www.nordish.com

nätdeutsch
Tuesday, August 8th, 2006, 07:58 PM
my understanding is that you can still be nordid in classification with a cephalic index of up to around 80,(if you look on nordish.com) so with a 78 CI i can very well be nordid.
so skalagrim, i dont reallly understand what you're saying.
please clarify

nätdeutsch
Tuesday, August 8th, 2006, 08:12 PM
The cephalic index mean of the modern Hallstatt Nordid is low mesocephalic (C.I. ca. 77), although dolichocephaly is not uncommon among individuals....


remember, 77 is only the Average, not the only measurement. which means there are 50% above that, 50% below that.

Skalagrim
Tuesday, August 8th, 2006, 08:26 PM
my understanding is that you can still be nordid in classification with a cephalic index of up to around 80,(if you look on nordish.com) so with a 78 CI i can very well be nordid.
so skalagrim, i dont reallly understand what you're saying.
please clarify

I agree with You :thumbup

nätdeutsch
Tuesday, August 8th, 2006, 11:25 PM
right on :D

Dr. Solar Wolff
Wednesday, August 9th, 2006, 04:53 AM
Well, I just flipped open Coon's Races of Europe to page 203 where he begins his discussion on Germanics and their Hallstatt origin. Coon cites a study of 42 skulls. Only one had an index over 78. The average was 72.3. As I recall, the Reihengraeber series, later in time, was about 74 as were Swedish recruits. What I am saying is that 78 is mesocephalic at least. 80 is round headed. Borrebys can be round headed, blond, tall and big--smart too but Nordics are long headed and that is one of their defining qualities.

nätdeutsch
Wednesday, August 9th, 2006, 04:58 AM
why, then does nordish.com say that the average mean for hallstatts to be 77:
"The cephalic index mean of the modern Hallstatt Nordid is low mesocephalic (C.I. ca. 77), "

i recognize a tendency to have doliocephals as well, and im not claiming to be a hallstatt, although some have said so, but rather just nordid.

also, nordish.com classifies several people as "nordid" who have cephalic indexes well over 80, so this is apparantly uncommon. although it is not "classic" this is how things are, i think.

Skalagrim
Monday, September 25th, 2006, 09:28 PM
ive read that a rounded occiput is very indicitive of a nordic predominence. my cephalic index is 78, but my occiput is not incredibly rounded. how can i classify as nordid with a less than ultra-rounded occiput. (i was also classified as having slight borreby and dinarid influence, but obviously not much with a cephalic index of 78.)
thanks


In accordance with nordish.com Trønders have mesocephalic CI
The head form is high mesocephalic (c.i. typically 78-80)
and not ultra-rounded occiput.

nätdeutsch
Monday, September 25th, 2006, 09:36 PM
hm. i doubt being of troender influence. check out my classification thread, and input would be appreciated!!!!!!!!!

http://forums.skadi.net/showthread.php?t=63050

Hellstar
Wednesday, December 27th, 2006, 03:49 PM
Had to state my short view upon this,
As many rightfully said, it’s an indicator. But shouldn’t be taken that seriously.
Many times its brown-haired people with most jutting occiputs I noticed. And Keltics for that sake.
Many Nordics don’t posses it in same degree. Now I know it bring thoughts to the Mediterranean quest. But many really Nordics from Scandinavia don’t run around with jutting out freak heads as some would assume. But a tendency is evident. If Anglo is indeed mixed with Dinarics as I sometimes suspect then the pure Nordic element is Anglo for several reasons I cannot explain fully here and North German/Jutland Denmark up to Norway and some parts of Sweden mostly it would be superior and just look at the old German SS officers for valour and frenzy and conquest and not at some flat faced bogus white haired mixed rat from the forest of Sweden. But as I said it’s a hypothesis im playing with. Some primitive types with low foreheads and high vaults display great occiputs and are also typical Swedish and to some extend Polish admixtured which is a Cro-Magnon strain.

Hellstar
Wednesday, December 27th, 2006, 04:04 PM
why, then does nordish.com say that the average mean for hallstatts to be 77:
"The cephalic index mean of the modern Hallstatt Nordid is low mesocephalic (C.I. ca. 77), "


Well **** that page, it’s about time you people move on and not look upon it as a god itself.

The reason they say 77-78 units is because they acknowledge the influx (Blond brachycephalic elements according to old Doctor Arbo for example) which have destroyed the Iron Age scull of typically 74 units. So many Nordics are not that pure no more. And it’s quite evident in my part of the world.

I have around 73-74 units myself.
Remember not only the length but also the wideness.
If you want a classification then I can easily throw my views since I’ve been studying Nordics since dawn of my time. Conscious and unconscious for that sake.

Only problem is i'm so damn stubborn and critical.
PS: what is the length of your scull and the wideness?

Dr. Solar Wolff
Thursday, December 28th, 2006, 07:39 AM
Naetdeutsch,

When nordish.com publishes an article in The American Journal of Anthropology, please, wake me up. What I am saying is that this is not a source of information. In my mind, anything over a CI of 75 or over is mesocephalic. 80 is round headed in my book. Pima Indians have a CI of 80.

Look, Wernher von Braun was probably more round headed than you are. There is nothing wrong with this. There are Borrebys who are the blondest people in the world. They are perhaps the smartest, too. Why fight it?

The Nordic occiput which I think you are describing was explained by Guenther as being low and projecting back strongly. This is really only seen in long headed people. My impression is that this is also an Atlantid trait as so many British people have it but it can also be found in many Nordics outside of Britain.

Hellstar
Thursday, December 28th, 2006, 02:52 PM
Naetdeutsch,
What I am saying is that this is not a source of information. In my mind, anything over a CI of 75 or over is mesocephalic. 80 is round headed in my book..
Well to be more accurate, the differentiations is around 77-78 units! which borders the Mesocephalic.


There are Borrebys who are the blondest people in the world. They are perhaps the smartest, too. Why fight it?
.
Because its bullshit, that’s why, first of all some of em almost fit in the category of being the blondest beside the Finns. But seriously not the smartest. They are lazy and a big thorn in the way of our Nordic society/cultivation, since they don’t make orders proper and despise extravaganza...


The Nordic occiput which I think you are describing was explained by Guenther as being low and projecting back strongly. This is really only seen in long headed people. My impression is that this is also an Atlantid trait as so many British people have it but it can also be found in many Nordics outside of Britain.
Well it’s jutting out as stated. Also note the short flattening of the scull before the back of the vault top where others don’t have it (Meds for example) or display longer flattening (Cro-magnon types). I guess 2-4 cm is average for Nordics without having it examined for this Occasion.

Agrippa
Monday, January 1st, 2007, 11:26 PM
A rounded or even strongly projecting occiput can occur in various racial types, mostly in those which are dolicho- to mesocephalic, though in some cases even brachycephals can have a stronger rounded occiput than a dolichocephalic individual.
So its mainly important if one wants to distinguish short headed racial types from long headed ones. Crucial is, a Nordid shouldnt have a very weak or even planoccipital headform, the typical or extreme ones will always have a rather strongly rounded, projecting shape.

Modern Nordids being defined as dolicho- to mesocephalic, so mesocephals, especially the lower ones, being definitely included. Crucial is again, that they are not brachycephal at least or better in the lower mesocephalic segment. For Europids dolicho- and mesocephaly being often put together in the "longheaded" forms, because a more strict and dolichocephalic only definition would narrow the natural spectrum down to an extreme degree.

Again, one should distinguish between variation, wider norm, typical and extreme forms.

Enlil
Tuesday, January 2nd, 2007, 12:14 AM
With "projecting occiput", do you mean what is also called an "occiputal bun"? I have a huge bun on my occiputal bone, as have most but not all of my Swedish friends, is this what the discussion is about, or the form of the entire occiputal bone?

Thanks.

nätdeutsch
Tuesday, January 2nd, 2007, 12:17 AM
With "projecting occiput", do you mean what is also called an "occiputal bun"? I have a huge bun on my occiputal bone, as have most but not all of my Swedish friends, is this what the discussion is about, or the form of the entire occiputal bone?
Thanks.
I think the bun could be included, but I was refering a roundedness of the occiput...to my knowledge the bun is also found in alot of UP areas such as Ireland...

interesting!

Agrippa
Tuesday, January 2nd, 2007, 12:24 AM
With "projecting occiput", do you mean what is also called an "occiputal bun"? I have a huge bun on my occiputal bone, as have most but not all of my Swedish friends, is this what the discussion is about, or the form of the entire occiputal bone?
Thanks.

This Norwegian is a good example for a Nordid occiput in my opinion, just compare:
http://forums.skadi.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=91247&stc=1&d=1167697317

Strong, but not that extreme.

Another example of a Nordid occiput with a weaker projection I would describe as being "more average" (just think about the headshape without the hair):
http://forums.skadi.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=91248&stc=1&d=1167697380

nätdeutsch
Tuesday, January 2nd, 2007, 08:01 PM
thanks for the replies, Agrippa.

My occiput is more similar to the 2nd one's, though a little weaker. my measurements are very close to his, however, oddly enough. :)

Hellstar
Wednesday, January 3rd, 2007, 04:17 PM
no reason to get angry.....
length~194
width~152
Why not. You can’t comprehend the impact im talking about.
Beside the point, frenzy is what sets the mark along the path of selection as well.
I can’t use your data for much, the length is typical Nordic, if that’s what you want to hear, and the wideness is however not classical Nordic.
Listen instead of talking. I can’t classify on these small data’s.

Hellstar
Wednesday, January 3rd, 2007, 04:28 PM
A rounded or even strongly projecting occiput can occur in various racial types, mostly in those which are dolicho- to mesocephalic, though in some cases even brachycephals can have a stronger rounded occiput than a dolichocephalic individual..
Yep. Just look at some Irish Types.
For instance, I examined a strongly Cro-Magnon person, a few years ago, which was low of stature 167 cm, extreme jaw formation and high testosterone levels. Believed him to be Spanish/French altered Cro-Magnon strained with a tiny Nordic strain. With scull length of 23 cm, which seemed to amaze me when considering him to be brachycephalic due to his extreme wideness at the same time. So length not always important in over-all when forgetting wideness. Strongly developed bones which Nordics don’t have in the scull adds to length. Thus wideness.

Again, one should distinguish between variation, wider norm, typical and extreme forms.
Exactly.

Skalagrim
Wednesday, January 3rd, 2007, 06:45 PM
http://www.bergmanorama.com/gallery7/winter-10.jpg
What about Max von Sydow? Is He Halstatt Nordid? He hasn't rounded occiput.
http://forums.skadi.net/post_examples_racially_progressive_indiv iduals-t43474p33.html

nätdeutsch
Wednesday, January 3rd, 2007, 07:45 PM
http://www.bergmanorama.com/gallery7/winter-10.jpg
What about Max von Sydow? Is He Halstatt Nordid? He hasn't rounded occiput.
http://forums.skadi.net/post_examples_racially_progressive_indiv iduals-t43474p33.html
Nordish.com has classified him as so, and I would tend to agree.

goldgrube
Thursday, January 11th, 2007, 10:25 PM
Sharp occiput can be a sign of strong masculinization

Dr. Solar Wolff
Friday, January 12th, 2007, 05:30 AM
The type of occiput I thought was under discussion is low and projects back on the level of the ear. Someone described it as projecting backward from the nape of the neck but I forget who said that. In Agrippa's top picture, the occiput is not low, it is high and projecting. In his second picture, well, I would not call that a projecting occiput unless you are comparing it to that of Max von Sydow who has no real occipital bulge. Not all Nordics have big heads in proportion to their bodies and in this they are the most likely European race to violate allometic rules concering head-body size (personal observation).

Total head length does mean something. Show me a Nordic with a head length of 200 mm regardless of width. I don't think there are any. Anything over 195mm greatly hints at UP ancestry and with 200mm or more it is almost a certainty.

Naetdeutsch, being classified as Nordic means a whole series of things besides head shape. It has to do with the facial proportions, the orbital shape and position, the shape of the forehead, pigmentation, and to lesser extents, body proportions, lower jaw length and angle, tooth proportions and structure, facial flatness, and probably other things. I don't think these things change so there is no modern vs. ancient Nordics in my mind just as UP types are still UP types after 35,000 years. True, some UP types have changed into other races but we name these races and make a break between them and the older ones.

To say you are predominately Nordic might be the answer for you. We are all just predominately something or other. You are not disqualified from being predominately Nordic if a few of your metrics are outside someone's ideal. We can all find other types in our recent line of ancestors than the one we call ourselves. Max von Sydow is an extreme Nordic type. He may have most or all Nordic traits. Most Nordics from Sweden are not as "Nordic" as he is yet they can still be called Nordic. People formulate charts showing racial distances. Anthropologists love to poke holes in typological anthropology and then use typological formulas and examples to make the points when it serves their purposes. Chris Springer does this at every opportunity when comparing modern Europeans to Neanderthals. It was done again in recent work "proving" a group of pre-Clovis (older than 13,000 years) from Brazil had "African/Australoid" affiliations. This was done using a mathematical formula of "distance", implying genetic distance, using less than twenty fossil skulls.

So, what I am saying is that even though your head may be too wide to fall within a Nordic range, if your other features are mostly Nordic, then you are predominately Nordic and you might as well just call yourself Nordic rather than get into a discussion with people, (calling yourself Predominately Nordic), who may not know or even care. Head width is only one measurement.

But one thing about typological anthropology is that you can make up any values you want for your own system of classification. Everybody has done this to a greater or lesser extent. There are many systems. Denker had only three races in his and it still has some popular acceptance.

nätdeutsch
Friday, January 12th, 2007, 07:26 PM
The type of occiput I thought was under discussion is low and projects back on the level of the ear. Someone described it as projecting backward from the nape of the neck but I forget who said that. In Agrippa's top picture, the occiput is not low, it is high and projecting. In his second picture, well, I would not call that a projecting occiput unless you are comparing it to that of Max von Sydow who has no real occipital bulge. Not all Nordics have big heads in proportion to their bodies and in this they are the most likely European race to violate allometic rules concering head-body size (personal observation).

Total head length does mean something. Show me a Nordic with a head length of 200 mm regardless of width. I don't think there are any. Anything over 195mm greatly hints at UP ancestry and with 200mm or more it is almost a certainty.


Thank you for an excellent and informative response, Doc! My reasoning for calling myself pred. Nordid. is that I seem to have some moral complex of telling the whole truth..:P

With regards to head length, corded Nordid might be of or over 200mm, but for the traditional reduced Nordid, I think your length seems likely.:thumbup

thanks for the input

Agrippa
Friday, January 12th, 2007, 07:48 PM
200 mm is for sure not that long for a Nordid, at least not on the living (skulls and ancients being a different matter), such a length can be seen in taller-bigger Mediterranids and Iranids too, in all leptodolichomorphic, Aurignacoid Europids of greater size. Above 200 mm might be rather large for Nordids nevertheless. On the skull classic Germanic Nordid averages ranged in early medieval time from about 186-193. One has to consider the difference between head : skull first and the different body size and growth patterns as well.

More satisfied with this example?