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Götterschicksal
Thursday, August 7th, 2003, 12:05 PM
How did this misnomer come about? There are several theories:

1. In the 15th and 16th centuries, the English referred to all people of germanic heritage as Dutch or Dutchmen regardless of whether they came from the Netherlands or from lands now known as Germany. If differentiated, however, they were referred to by the English as the Low Dutch (Low German) for the Netherlanders and the High Dutch (High German) for the Germans and German speaking Swiss, referring to the elevation of their native lands.

However, after the United Provinces (the Netherlands) became an independent state, and competition and even wars developed between England and the Netherlands, the English language terms for these two people began to diverge such that by the 17th century the Netherlanders were referred to as the Dutch and the people from areas now in Germany where referred to as Germans. Thus, some theorize that the phrase Pennsylvania Dutch is a linguistic carry over from the earlier, broader usage of the word Dutch.

2. The German word for German is "Deutsch". Thus, if a person described themselves as a Pennsylvania "Deutschman", he meant Pennsylvania German. Thus, recent generations of English speaking people in the United States, corrupted the pronuncation and spelling to Pennsylvania "Dutchman".

3. The Dutch predominantly settled in New Amsterdam (now New York). The Germans predominantly settled in southeastern Pennsylvania, in the inland counties of Northampton, Berks, Lancaster, Lehigh, Montgomery, Bucks, and others. Some very early Palatine German refugees were settled in New York by the British. However, most of these eventually migrated overland to
Pennsylvania where William Penn offered religious freedom and better treatment. The languages sound similar to the untrained ear. Because of similarities in the sound of the language, some people theorize that the Pennsylvania Germans were called Pennsylvania Dutch by the English to differentiate them geographically from the similar sounding New York Dutch.

4. Most of the German immigrants sailed to Pennsylvania from Dutch ports, such as Rotterdam and Amsterdam in Holland, after coming down the Rhine River from Germany. Thus, English speaking people may have confused them as being Dutch because the ship lists reported they embarked for the new world from Dutch ports. Thus, some people may have incorrectly thought these Palatine Germans and other German speaking people were Dutch.

5. Dutch Reformed congregations in New York and Holland provided financial and spiritual assistance to the early German Reformed
congregations in Pennsylvania due to their shared spiritual beliefs. Dutch ministers, who were also fluent in German, preached to the early PA German settlers in order to insure the Reformed faith was nurtured and grew in the early settlements until such time as the German Reformed Church was solidly established. With the Dutch church heavily involved with the early settlers, this could have further confused the true heritage of these early German speaking settlers as viewed by the English speaking settlers.



"Pennsylvania Dutch "

Unsah Faddah im Himmel,
dei nohma loss heilich sei.
Dei Reich loss kumma.
Dei villa loss gedu sei,
uf di eaht vi im Himmel.
Unsah tayklich broht gebb uns heit.
Un fagebb unsah shulda,
vi miah dee fagevva vo uns shuldich sinn.
Un fiah uns naett in di fasuchung,
avvah hald uns fu'm eevila.
Fa dei is es Reich, di graft, un di hallichkeit in ayvichkeit. Amen.

+Suomut+
Monday, August 11th, 2003, 07:28 AM
This is a topic near and dear to my heart, since I am Pennsylvania "Dutch/Deutsch" down my paternal line.

All the points above discuss this topic very well.

The simple fact of the matter is: there are VERY FEW folks in North America of Nederlander descent. "New Amsterdam/New York" really was the hub of Nederlander-Americanism. Beyond that colony, there were FEW others in the orginal American colonies of Nederlander heritage. There are VERY FEW folks here in the U. S. today that can claim Nederlander colonial heritage.

One must understand that most of the immigrants to the original 13 British colonies on the eastern coast of what is now called the U. S. were poor, illiterate, and uneducated. This was true of ALL ethnic groups that came here. So, there were illiterate Englishmen (of course) in the colonies dealing with equally illiterate European continentals from destinations including the "German"-speaking areas. These were the days BEFORE such "socialistic" concepts of "public-education," etc. So, back in those days here there were fairly ignorant English-speakers dealing on an everyday basis with fairly ignorant "German"-speakers...so, what came out of it in Pennsylvania?!?! The label of the: "Pennsylvania Dutch." :-)

Anyone here in the U.S. who is of "PA Dutch" heritage (like me) KNOWS!!! that the label REALLY means: "Pennsylvania DEUTSCH!" lol ;-) So, for those of us who KNOW better! (typically "German-Americans") we know what it means, but for those who are NOT "German-American" it is until this day a TRICKY thing that not everyone on this side of the ocean understands...for MANY it still means NEDERLANDER/"Dutch" and NOT GERMAN/DEUTSCH!

Btw, from what I know, MOST "PA DEUTSCH" folks are of HOCHDEUTSCH (as are mine) heritage and this is because most "PA Deut." are Protestant (esp. Lutheran)-"German" who were in the 1600-1700s driven from the predominantly Catholic-German areas.

I do find it interesting, as a native English-speaker that "Dutch" has come to mean in modern English "Nederlander" and "German" has come to me "Deutsch." In my mind "Dutch" is merely an English corruption of the TRUE "Deutsch," so as far as I'm concerned "Dutch"="Deutsch"="GERMAN." And the "Nederlanders" are IN-BETWEEN being "English"+"Deutsch!" LOL

As for this issue of whether or not the ancient "Germanni" were "Germanic" or "Celtic" is beyond the scope of this post!!!! LOL :-))) Nevertheless, the English folk as some point LONG AGO decided to apply this term to the "Deutsch!" LOL

Oh, btw, additionally, terms such as "Dutch"; "Deutsch"; et al. are all ultimately derived from "THIUDA!" which is merely and old (ancient) Gothic term meaning "FOLK!" or to be more Latin-like "people!" So, e.g., such modern deutsch phrasologies such as "das deutsche Volk" ("the folk folk") are redundancies! ;-)

GOD-BLESS my kinfolk in the "PA-DEUTSCH"!!!!!! Any of you that might happen to come across this post!!!! LOL :-OOOO

Loki
Monday, August 11th, 2003, 07:50 AM
Welcome to Skadi Forum, Suomut2_13! ;)

Thanks for the interesting picures you posted on the Anglo-Saxon thread. This issue about the Pennsylvania "Dutch" is also a must read!

Regards,

Loki

:guinness

Nordgau
Monday, August 11th, 2003, 10:51 AM
I do find it interesting, as a native English-speaker that "Dutch" has come to mean in modern English "Nederlander" and "German" has come to me "Deutsch." In my mind "Dutch" is merely an English corruption of the TRUE "Deutsch," so as far as I'm concerned "Dutch"="Deutsch"="GERMAN." And the "Nederlanders" are IN-BETWEEN being "English"+"Deutsch!" LOL


When the Lower-German tribe of the Netherlanders slightly began to seperate out of the German Volk in the early modern times in political, cultural, national-mental and in language (with the Lower-German dialect of Netherlandish character becoming an own high language) respects, they got the word "deutsch" (dutch) "reserved" for them in the English language, while for the Volk in Deutschland (now without the Netherlands), the antique "Germans" were digged out again.

Interesting is that now, with the modern Volk in Deutschland called "Germans", the antique Germans (in German: Germanen) in English are often called "Teutons" - a very incorrect term that should be avoided, because the Teutons (in German: Teutonen) in a the true, narrow sense were only one Germanic tribe that went to the South in the second century B. C. and then was defeated and mostly exterminated by the Romans. One should drop the word "Teutons" for the Germanics as a whole and only use "Germanics" - it's only a cause for misunderstandings (for example in German books translated from English one often reads stuff like that Himmler and the SS worshipped to the Teutonen or that the Nazis loved the teutonische Rasse. - At best in the Third Reich one spoke of Germanen and a germanische Rasse).

My question: Was the word "German" already used in English for the modern Germans, e g. in the Medieval Age (if there are non-Latin texts where the Germans are mentioned) or also in the very early modern times, before the the Netherlands seperated and "took with them" the word "Dutch"?

Allenson
Monday, August 11th, 2003, 07:09 PM
The simple fact of the matter is: there are VERY FEW folks in North America of Nederlander descent. "New Amsterdam/New York" really was the hub of Nederlander-Americanism. Beyond that colony, there were FEW others in the orginal American colonies of Nederlander heritage. There are VERY FEW folks here in the U. S. today that can claim Nederlander colonial heritage.



I am one of those few. I am largely of 'New Netherlands' Dutch ancestry (50% or so...some from both maternal and paternal sides). My family has lived in the hills above the Hudson for over 300 years now. Here's a map showing the distribution of Dutch descended folk in the US


http://www.mnplan.state.mn.us/maps/ancestry/us/dutch.gif

+Suomut+
Saturday, August 16th, 2003, 11:46 AM
I am one of those few. I am largely of 'New Netherlands' Dutch ancestry (50% or so...some from both maternal and paternal sides). My family has lived in the hills above the Hudson for over 300 years now. Here's a map showing the distribution of Dutch descended folk in the US


http://www.mnplan.state.mn.us/maps/ancestry/us/dutch.gif

Hey Dalonord,

I have to say I'm always astonished to find Nederlander-Americans! :-O I met a gal a few weeks back that's paternally Nederlander from the New Amsterdam Colony. U "Dutch" folks are unique here and you all KNOW IT TOO!!!! LOL ;-))) Good spirit, I like it! =)

As for the URL/map you provide, I took conspicuous notice of certain counties in the South that I am WELL!!!!!!!!! familiar with that have virtually no Nederlander populations but are overwhelmingly "German" i.e. non-Nederlander. So, it appears obvious to me that this map is inaccurate to a certain extent with a certain % of reportees who are really "German" reporting themselves (perhaps out of ignorance) as "Dutch/Nederlander." But, it's based on the census and we have to go by what the citizens report don't we?--regardless, of how genuine and true the reports are. :(


When the Lower-German tribe of the Netherlanders slightly began to seperate out of the German Volk in the early modern times in political, cultural, national-mental and in language (with the Lower-German dialect of Netherlandish character becoming an own high language) respects, they got the word "deutsch" (dutch) "reserved" for them in the English language, while for the Volk in Deutschland (now without the Netherlands), the antique "Germans" were digged out again.

I personally wouldn't call Netherlanders a "tribe," since I'm inclined to reserve this for the ancients, but I know what you mean. In my mind, modern Netherlanders/Nederlanders are an "ethnicity" or a "genetic nation."


Interesting is that now, with the modern Volk in Deutschland called "Germans", the antique Germans (in German: Germanen) in English are often called "Teutons" - a very incorrect term that should be avoided, because the Teutons (in German: Teutonen) in a the true, narrow sense were only one Germanic tribe that went to the South in the second century B. C. and then was defeated and mostly exterminated by the Romans. One should drop the word "Teutons" for the Germanics as a whole and only use "Germanics" - it's only a cause for misunderstandings (for example in German books translated from English one often reads stuff like that Himmler and the SS worshipped to the Teutonen or that the Nazis loved the teutonische Rasse. - At best in the Third Reich one spoke of Germanen and a germanische Rasse).

Actually, it seems to me the use of the term "German(-ic)" was probably first instigated by the English intellegensia at some point in the late-middle ages. Also, the term "Teuton(-ic)" probably has a similar history in the English tongue. Today, in English both terms are used to refer to "deutschers" the former FAR MORE than the latter.

Originally, both the Germanni and the Teutonni were singular, individual tribes. As for the Germanni, I've never been able to find much information on this obsure tribe. They were either "Germanic" or "Celtic" (to use our modern understandings of these terms). A prominent member of this site stated one time via another forum that that term "Germanni" had some kind of meaning (I'm sorry I forgot what it was) in the ancient Celtic/Gaelic tongues, but I never bought that idea much (I wanted to see the PROOF for it!) since I've long thought that given the tribe's name which includes the "-manni" suffix which is a nearly SURE sign for me this tribe was "Germanic" since several of the old folk tribes liked to name themselves after the "Germanic" demigod "Mannus." I mean NO BODY debates as to whether or not the ALEMANNI!!!! (like those of us with Swiss and Swabian blood) were "Germanic!" Of course they were as the "GERMANNI" in all probablity. The problem with the Germanni is that to my knowledge no one knows where they ended up in history. They are an enigma. Now to the Teutonni...-v

From my readings of Plutarch, it's not like ALL the Teutonni, Cimbri, and Ambrones left the ancient "Cimbric" Peninsula (Denmark)! Let's leave a little room for the possiblity that SOME/MANY/MOST stayed behind. But who knows. Think for a moment, though, did ALL! the "Angles" leave Angeln for the British Isles? No. Did ALL! the Goths leave "Gotland" for the mainland to the south? No. Etc., etc. So, in my mind there is no problem for ANYONE of "Germanic" heritage calling themselves "Teuton" a "Cimbrian" or an "Ambrone"...esp. those who have heritage from Denmark south into Northern Italy since these were the essential tracings of these tribes.

As for the N. S. problems in modern Deutschland in regard to these terminologies you understand them better than I do. I can't comment.


My question: Was the word "German" already used in English for the modern Germans, e g. in the Medieval Age (if there are non-Latin texts where the Germans are mentioned) or also in the very early modern times, before the the Netherlands seperated and "took with them" the word "Dutch"?

Well, I did a little digging in my Anglo-Saxon dictionary along these lines. In A.S./Old English/early Medieval times there was no such a word as "German" in use. But it makes sense doesn't it that this word would not be in A.S. since there was no tribe anywhere in Europe at the time of "England's" early beginnings with the name "German(-ni)." So, as I mention above, it was probably in the latter middle-ages that the English learned classes (being knowledgable of the Classical works) brought the term "German" into being in reference to "deutschers."

As for the terms: "Dutch"/"deutsch"/"dütsch"/ etc. the cognate to these in A.S. was šeod, meaning literally "folk/Volk." An earlier cognate to this word was the Gothic šiuda meaning precisely the same thing "folk/Volk." There never was a "Germanic" tribe in ancient times called the šiuda/šeod/dütsch/deutsch/Dutch/etc. This was (and in my mind still is) a rather generic term for folk/Volk/nation/people/etc. So, IMO, anyone of "Germanic" heritage has the right to use this term, even though it would be incredibly confusing for most "normal" persons walking the streets today. Being "deutsch" is really a nearly all-encompassing term for all "Germanic" folks whether being Lombard, Burgundian, Alleman, Swabian, Bavarian, Thuringian, Saxon, Frank, Frisian, Angle, Jute, Dane, Norse, Swedish, etc. Each of these folks have their own individual heritages and unique names, but they are all together "One Folk(Folc)/Ein Volk" OR "One šiuda/šeod/dütsch/deutsch/Dutch/etc." in a SUPER-ethnic sense.

Here are some other šiuda/folk cognates in A.S.:
šeod=folk
šeodcwen=folk-queen
šeodcyning=folk-king
šeode=speech/language/nation
šeodeorše=folk-earth
šeodhere=folk-army/Volksheer
šeodisc=speech/language
šeodland=folk-land/district/gau
šeodlic=folk-like/national
šeodscipe=folk/nation/people
šeodstefn=folk/nation

As for the modern English-speaking world referring to the modern "German"-speaking world as "Germans," I think this should be ended. The better term in English for the modern community of "German"-speakers/ethnics should be: "the Deutschers" since since some 6 or more TRIBAL groups are being refered to. And perhaps the "Dutch" can then become in English parlance: "the Hollanders!" lol ;-)))

Nordgau
Saturday, August 16th, 2003, 12:28 PM
I personally wouldn't call Netherlanders a "tribe," since I'm inclined to reserve this for the ancients, but I know what you mean. In my mind, modern Netherlanders/Nederlanders are an "ethnicity" or a "genetic nation."


Yeah, you're right. In German terminology of Volkskunde, it's usual to call the even today Bavarians, Franconians, Saxonies etc. the different German Stämme. Literally that would be "tribes", but such a directly translation is junk, cause "tribe" isn't used in English for such modern ethnic populations or sub-populations.


As for the modern English-speaking world referring to the modern "German"-speaking world as "Germans," I think this should be ended. The better term in English for the modern community of "German"-speakers/ethnics should be: "the Deutschers" since since some 6 or more TRIBAL groups are being refered to. And perhaps the "Dutch" can then become in English parlance: "the Hollanders!" lol ;-)))

As theoritical thought quite interesting, though I don't think of the practical possibility of a name changing of a whole country or people. That only really works with non-European people such as Persians/Iranians, Ceylon/Sri Lanka, Kongo/Zaire: these names aren't so common and such an important and daily thing for the English-speaking people. But the Germans as known and great and important central folk of Europe are.

Wouldn't "Deutschers" be from its spelling to far for a common English use? How about the "Deutchers" and "Deutchland" as compromise ("eu" spoken as "oi" still isn't real English). And when the "Dutch" are forced to be "Hollanders" again, we can inherit that word again. "Dutchland" as my favourite is already free today, lol.

Götterschicksal
Saturday, August 16th, 2003, 06:34 PM
Also, the term "Teuton(-ic)" probably has a similar history in the English tongue

I posted on this before (in german) - http://www.forums.skadi.net/showthread.php?t=3621 - bottom of page.

+Suomut+
Monday, August 18th, 2003, 04:17 AM
For any and all that might be interested I've posted a reply to this @ http://www.forums.skadi.net/showthread.php?p=37811


I posted on this before (in german) - http://www.forums.skadi.net/showthread.php?t=3621 - bottom of page.


As theoritical thought quite interesting, though I don't think of the practical possibility of a name changing of a whole country or people. That only really works with non-European people such as Persians/Iranians, Ceylon/Sri Lanka, Kongo/Zaire: these names aren't so common and such an important and daily thing for the English-speaking people. But the Germans as known and great and important central folk of Europe are.

I agree. What I suggest is practically impossible, but I can DREAM can't I!??! LOL ;-) What's so bad about it is such a language change would be GOOD for the English folk (for the sake of NOT being ignorant)! But there are a lot of things that would be good for English folks but most don't care. I suppose the same can be said of most deutschers too these days, sadly.


Wouldn't "Deutschers" be from its spelling to far for a common English use? How about the "Deutchers" and "Deutchland" as compromise ("eu" spoken as "oi" still isn't real English). And when the "Dutch" are forced to be "Hollanders" again, we can inherit that word again. "Dutchland" as my favourite is already free today, lol.

No, such a language change would be easy for Englishmen to do, no problem. Yeah, changing the pronunciation would be unnecessary, the SENSIBLE meaning would be there instead of troublesome wordage. Maybe if the English started calling the "Germans"-->"Deutschers" then the "Dutchmen/Hollanders/Nederlanders" might get MAD! and want the name BACK!!! LOL (I'm not holding my breath, of course ;-) IMO, they should go by FRISIANS!!!!!!!!!!!!! This is IMO, the BEST and most HONORABLE name for any, in English, "Dutchman" to go by. Frisian blood is the ONE side of the heritage of "Dutchmen" that said men have the most to be proud about. Absolutely, no "Dutchman" could ever be criticised for calling himself a Frisian first regardless of whether he was born or raised in Frisland. ;-)

Kleinwildjaeger
Sunday, January 4th, 2004, 09:54 PM
North America has a unique population of Germans who have settled here long ago - the Amish. They are thrifty, hardworking, and have many of the traditional virtues of the Germanic races.

Germanics living in America might consider joining the Amish. The immediate advantages are obvious; your bloodlines are pretty much assured into the next several generations, your lifestyle has very little interaction with the NWO, and it is a very healthy way of life.

Anybody have any thoughts on this? Obviously, those of you who embrace the Norse pantheon would not fit in, but most Protestants would have little trouble adapting to the religious part.

Fox
Thursday, August 5th, 2004, 04:28 PM
Don't know how many people here know about the unfortunate situation of Pennsylvania Germans but check this site out:

http://www.deitscherei.com/aasicht.htm

Thoughts and opinions welcome

cosmocreator
Monday, September 6th, 2004, 07:51 AM
Site about the Amish way of life, history, etc.

http://www.amish.net/

Evolved
Tuesday, September 7th, 2004, 02:07 AM
How do you feel about independent small-scale living colonies, Primitivism and a return to a hunter-gatherer type lifestyle? I think we've taken civilization as far as possible and now we are starting to retrogress. I'm very much in favor of the Palaeolithic lifestyle and re-learning basic human skills in small tribes of about 50 people. All civilizations are so totally f^cked beyond repair, it is time to start over. :)

cosmocreator
Tuesday, September 7th, 2004, 06:48 AM
No, I wouldn't want to return to the stone age. I could live like the Amish though but replacing Christianity with Cosmotheism.

STORMSOLDAAT
Wednesday, December 1st, 2004, 08:10 PM
The Amish, Mennonite, Hutterite and the Bruderhof communities, ignoring the strange yid looking beards of the older men are these people mainly Nordic?

I have never been to America that is why I ask. I have seen them on the ZOGbox and some look Nordic, I would say they are mainly Alpine, not seen many that look Med & I have never seen a halfbreed amoung them! :)

http://www.in.gov/enjoyindiana/regions/north/media/images_photos/ad_culture11.jpg

They seem to be mainly of German, Dutch and German speaking-Swiss origin from what I have read about them.

Evolved
Wednesday, December 1st, 2004, 09:04 PM
I don't know about Amish or Old Order Mennonites in New England, but I have travelled around in Ohio and Pennsylvania quite a few times and the Amish looked always either Nordid, Dinarid or Alpinid or a combination thereof. Their Bibles are written in German and their everyday language Deitsch is a dialect of High German. They came mainly from S.W. Germany and Switzerland.

USS Dixiecrat
Thursday, December 2nd, 2004, 07:44 AM
Since I LIVE in Lancaster county Pennsylvania, "home of the PA dutch" I would have to say they are largely nordic, considering I see them every day. Most have darker hair and brown eyes, but just about all of them have very nordic features.

STORMSOLDAAT
Thursday, December 2nd, 2004, 08:12 AM
Since I LIVE in Lancaster county Pennsylvania, "home of the PA dutch" I would have to say they are largely nordic, considering I see them every day. Most have darker hair and brown eyes, but just about all of them have very nordic features.

* What percentage of them would you say are blond, blue eyed?
* Are they above average height?
* Have you ever seen any halfbreeds amoung them?

* Do they have large families(what would be the approx average number of children)?
* Do they ONLY marry within their own community?

USS Dixiecrat
Thursday, December 2nd, 2004, 02:26 PM
What percentage of them would you say are blond, blue eyed?

Probably 10-20% exhibit recessive traits. Though the percentage is getting smaller because they usually marry into their churches, in which the people are becoming very similar in appearence do to their shrinking gene pool.

* Are they above average height?

Most are average in height, though there are many tall ones.

* Have you ever seen any halfbreeds amoung them

Not untill recently. Because of their radical beliefs, they basically created their own extinction. Meaning they can only marry into the church they were born into, which creates a lack of "new blood." So this requires them to adopt children outside of their church so they can get "new blood" which I find truely sick. Only in the past decade have I began to see gooks, and niggers with amish families, but I have only seen this a few of times, they usually adopt white children.




* Do they have large families(what would be the approx average number of children)?

I would say they have huge families by todays standards. On average 6 or more children.

* Do they ONLY marry within their own community

For the most part, I address this issue in your third question.

Glenlivet
Thursday, December 2nd, 2004, 04:47 PM
That's considered to be one of the more Nordid regions of Germany, although it's not the most depigmented.

http://pro.corbis.com/images/TL031295.jpg?size=67&uid={eff76a71-320d-4242-b291-997c9597e4a4}

Amish Mother Sewing With Her Daughter

http://pro.corbis.com/images/TL031291.jpg?size=67&uid={81687b0a-d653-4657-8742-8567f6c182a7}

Amish Girl Sitting in a Little Red Wagon

What a precious child! She look like a doll.



They came mainly from S.W. Germany

cosmocreator
Monday, December 6th, 2004, 07:51 AM
http://www.amish.net/

Obacht
Friday, March 25th, 2005, 01:43 AM
Thank you for your post.

We have moved Deitscherei.com to Deitscherei.org and are currently underway at moving information along in the communities faster than ever.

Deitscherei.org is committed to the advancement of the Pennsylvania German culture (language, various modes of living, etc.). Preservation is not enough.

Speakers of Pennsylvania German are encouraged to find ways to help expand the use of the language throughout the Deitscherei.

Other talents need to be channeled into the cause as well. We need people who have organizational skills, recording talents, etc. to give the language a modern outlet for use that will interest the non-plain youth in their heritage.

As time goes on and our site gathers more steam, we will surely be carrying more information about opportunities for people to put their talents to use.

Thank you very much.

obacht@deitscherei.com

Peeps
Saturday, August 27th, 2005, 04:23 PM
http://www.nationalvanguard.org/story.php?id=5811

Heathen Traditions of the Pennsylvania Dutch Still Strong

Folk magic, runic hex-signs, dialect all strengthen sense of identity, common purpose

The word “Dutch” refers to “Deutsch” (German), not the Netherlands, and the Pennsylvania Dutch originate in southwestern Germany. Their language, Pennsylvania Dutch (Pennsilfaani-Deitsch) is still spoken by up to a quarter million people, mainly in and around Lancaster County.

While the folk magic of the Pennsylvania Dutch is today seen mainly as a set of cultural folk customs, scholars have been able to trace much of the content to pre-Christian times. Pennsylvania folk magic is a syncretic Christo-pagan belief system expressed through the beautiful hex-signs seen on barns and in homes, and as a series of folksy aphorisms, folk tales and superstitions passed down orally from generation to generation. It is also syncretic in the sense that its practitioners do not consider it to be a religion, and are usually church-going Christians. But the men and women who practice the wisdom would have been considered witches at one point in European and American history.

The “bible” of the Pennsylvania Dutch folk magic system is the book Pow-Wows, a compilation of folk customs (http://www.sacred-texts.com/ame/pow/index.htm) compiled by John George Hoffman in 1820. Despite the name, this folk magic has nothing to do with American Indian religion. The symbolism, formulae and history of the customs are uniquely Germanic, and distinct from the Celtic-derived folk magic of much of the South.

One of the best-known products of the Pennsylvania folk magic system are the hex-signs (http://www.hexsigns.com/), roundels brightly painted to ward against evil and bring good fortune. (Although many people associate the hex-signs with the better-known Amish and Mennonites, these “plain people” are generally puritanical and eschew folk magic.) Researchers have shown that the hex signs conceal protective runic charms and display colors and mythical shapes and fauna directly descended from Germanic heathenism. Recently there has been a revived interest (http://northernway.org/school/onw/folk/folkstudyhall.html) from Whites outside of the Pennsylvania Dutch community proper to study and practice this Germanic form of White American folk magic and to appreciate a living aspect of our collective folk soul.

Summary of Hexology (from the work of Edred Thorburnrson):

· The Pennsylvania Dutch farmers created their own American brand of magic with their hex signs.
· The use of graphic signs and incantation is similar to rune magic.
· The incantations or spells are taken from grimoires or magic manuals.
· A written blessing is called a "Himmelsbrief".
· The hex sign is circular and divided into three zones: core self, inner world, outer world.
· Geometrical shapes have different meanings: e.g. threefold pattern = spirituality.
· Symbols used in hex signs include earth star (good things, harmony), tulip (faith, loyalty), heart, golden finch (good luck), eagle (strength and courage), oak leaf (masculinity), acorns (male sexuality), rain drops (nourishment), pomegranates (fertility), lightning bolt (breaking loose), grapes (female fertility), clover (sweetness).
· Colors all have meanings: white = purity, innocence, red = love, vitality, freedom; black = death, lust; blue = spiritual strength; violet = dignity, power; yellow = divine love.

GreenHeart
Thursday, December 1st, 2005, 07:42 PM
Thanks for this article, I am a descendant from the Pennsylvania Dutch, and it's always interesting to learn a little bit more about your ancestors. :)

I take it you also descend from them?

Peeps
Sunday, December 4th, 2005, 08:54 PM
I take it you also descend from them?

No, I just thought it was interesting how certain pagan practices survive Christianity. Also, some of my classmates in elementary school were Amish (http://www.800padutch.com/amish.shtml), so I try to keep track of issues (http://www.newsmax.com/archives/articles/2005/10/20/123855.shtml) related to those people.

Georgia
Monday, August 21st, 2006, 01:23 PM
We live in an area where there is a large Mennonite community. We are friends with most of them, all of the ones we know. Not all of them are natives of Georgia, many of them have moved down here from the Midwest. In the past every time we get together, whether we go riding together, having dinner together or just visiting they would tell me that they speak Dutch and are of Dutch descent. I ask them to speak to me and they do NOT speak Dutch but clearly German, Plattdeutsch. The origin of this "Dutch thing" has to do that when these people first immigrated to America, their English-speaking neighbors were not able to pronounce the word "Deutsch" correctly but pronounced it as "Dutch." Ask them about their ancestry and they will tell you their ancestors came from the Schweiz or around the Black Forrest. So we always have a lot to talk about:thumbup .
In Deutsch.

Georgia:)

Imperator X
Monday, August 21st, 2006, 10:17 PM
Jawohl,This is particularly annoying because I am most likely a descendent [1/8th only, sadly] of these people myself. Most likely Alamannic from Baden-Wuerttemburg. The colors of the old Suddeutschfahne were Black and Gold, the colours of the Pittsburgh Steelers football team. BTW I just got back from Berlin after a month, my German has improved considerably, but that was mostly from the Intensive German program in Taos NM, there's too much English and too many frogs in Berlin. Hopefully I'll get to go to a more suburban German place in the future.

Ęmeric
Monday, August 21st, 2006, 11:06 PM
The simple fact of the matter is: there are VERY FEW folks in North America of Nederlander descent. "New Amsterdam/New York" really was the hub of Nederlander-Americanism. Beyond that colony, there were FEW others in the orginal American colonies of Nederlander heritage. There are VERY FEW folks here in the U. S. today that can claim Nederlander colonial heritage.


Actually there are probably tens of millions of Americans who are of colonial Dutch (Netherlands) descent. They were part of the founding population of America & very large families were the norm till about the Civil War era. However in most cases it's probably small proportion compared to the number of British & German ancestors.

darthantares
Tuesday, September 5th, 2006, 03:22 AM
The subject of colonial dutch ancestry is of great interest to me. My surname begins with Van*****. However whenever people would ask us about our ancestry my father would sidestep the question of our surname and start talking about collateral lines. Some cousins claimed that the name came from Alsace-Lorraine but I believe that is a bunch of crap after conducting my own research. When I pressed her she said that the name was originally spelled with a 'von' which I consider to be a ridiculous claim consider how rare anyone with that prefix for a surname was in the early colonies. My earliest known ancestor was born in New Jersey in 1763 and then moved to Pennsylvania with his family. When the family moved to PA they associated mainly with the Scotch-Irish presbyterian community with the exception with the many marriages with one family that came from nj earlier who was indeed ancient knickerbocker dutch lineage. However I feel like an idiot with a surname that makes no sense. I actually talked to one distant bearer of my surname who moved to Britain with her English husband who vacation a lot in Holland and said that noone recognizes it.

That said I have some true Pennsylvania Deutsch lines and they don't have anything like Van in front of the name.

wilhelmmichael
Sunday, October 8th, 2006, 02:43 AM
Being a citizen of South Dakota and being of "hutterite" blood myself (my grandmother), I can say that for the most part they are nordid-- some extreme, and some with traces of alpine in them. It's a very hutterite trait, too, to have white, yes, literally WHITE hair as a child and then have it darken to a lighter, or even medium shade of brown as the child gets older. In fact, "pure" hutterites generally have crystal blue eyes throughout the entirety of their lives -- Those with brown eyes are obviously not "ethnically pure" through my standards. However, many have mixtures of light blue/grey/green in their eyes- . The adults rarely have blond hair.. Many have dark blond/light brown to medium brown hair-- and a few with dark brown hair (although it's a rareity). But, to answer your question, many appear quite nordic, with small traces of alpine (they originated from the german state of Bavaria and upper austria) .

Ęmeric
Sunday, October 8th, 2006, 04:36 PM
There are Amish & Mennonites communities in Southwestern Indiana & it is not unusual to see them in the town of Jasper near where I live. None of the adults are what I would call Nordid. Most have brown hair, sometimes nearly black. They have round or square shapped faces. Most of the men are of medium height none of them appear to be particularly tall & a large percentage of the women, even the young women, wear glasses. Amish women seem to be of smaller statue than none Amish women. I have never seen an obese Amish person so on that count they are healthier than the none Amish.

ladybright
Thursday, March 1st, 2007, 04:45 AM
I was thinking of fastnachts when I bought paczkis (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/P%C4%85czki) for me and my daughter. They are 'the' traditional Shrove Tuesday treat in Michigan weither or not you are polish.

Willow
Sunday, November 11th, 2007, 12:48 AM
I have a fascination and a deep respect for the Amish people. The fact that they have refused to 'modernise', and continue with their own way of life, shunning technology, wealth, greed, and all the rest of the crap which exists in the world today, which just makes everyone totally miserable, enslaved and destroys the planet at the same time, i think that anyone who can stick to their own ways like the Amish has to be revered!





The Amish, called "The Plain People" or Old Order Amish, originated in Switzerland about l525. They came from a division of the Mennonites or Anabaptists (Re-baptizers). They opposed the union of church and state and infant baptism. They baptized people only as adults at about age l8. Adult baptism was a crime in the l6th century. Therefore, the Amish come from an impressive list of martyrs. They were put in sacks and thrown into rivers in Europe. There are no Amish left in Europe; The Amish were saved from extinction by William Penn who granted a haven from religious persecution in America. Since early colonial days the Amish have lived in the United States preserving their distinctive culture, dress, language and religion in peace and prosperity.

A few years ago they were again accused of crimes -- failing to have their children attend school with state certified teachers or failure to send them beyond the eighth grade. Until the United States Supreme Court in the case of Wisconsin vs. Yoder ruled in l972 that it was unconstitutional to force Amish into high school. The decision was based on the Constitutional legal issues of Parental Rights and Religious Freedom. Since the Amish believe in "turning the other cheek" and do not defend themselves, the National Committee for Amish Religious Freedom and its attorney William B. Ball of Harrisburg, Pennsylvania, defended them in court.

It may seem strange that failing to send children to school past the eighth grade would be a permitted or acceptable practice. But the Amish society is itself a school. They train their young people vocationally -- how to be homemakers and farmers, carpenters, and tradesmen from very early ages. By the time an Amish girl is twelve years old she knows how to cook a meal for a whole crew of Amish workers, and a young man knows farm operations by the time he is a teenager.

The Amish therefore have practically no unemployment, since their society is a vocational school. The Amish operate one-room parochial schools and are taught by teachers with only an eight-grade education. However, the teachers have learned how to be teachers with on the job training by an older and experienced Amish teacher. The Amish pupils have been tested with standardized tests by the U.S. Office of Education, and the pupils usually perform above the norms when compared to public schools pupils in their communities. The students are not therefore educationally deprived. Furthermore, it is difficult, if not impossible, for a non-Amish teacher to teach the values of humility, quietness, and shunning of technological things like automobiles, television, video games, movies and fashions. Some people think the Amish are ignorant because they shun technology, but the Amish are also making profound statements about the environment. They do not use gasoline, electricity, commercial chemicals, CFCs -- all of which pollute the environment.

The Amish live in nineteen states, Canada, and Central America. However, 80 percent of the Amish live in Pennsylvania, Ohio and Indiana. The Old Order Amish take their name from an early Swiss Anabaptist, Jacob Amman, who became their strict Bishop and taught them the Amish ethics -- Living non-resistant lives (They do not serve in the military, but only in hospitals or alternate service), with brotherly love, sharing material aid and living close to the soil and following the Bible literally. They cite the Bible which says, "Be ye not conformed to the world" as their chief tenet.

To this day they endure as a distinctive folk group because they have preserved a mentality of separation from the world and the sentiments of persecuted strangers in the land. They wear plain clothing fastened with hooks and eyes, not buttons. Their men wear broad-brimmed black hats, plain-cut trousers and the women and even little girls wear bonnets and ankle length dresses. They generally oppose automobiles, electricity, telephones and higher education beyond eighth grade.

Their congregations number only about 300. They worship in homes and not in church buildings. They do not drive cars or ride in airplanes, but drive horses and buggies. This keeps their communities small and close-knit, and their children do not live all over the world. Family values are important to them. They are slow to change and speak the German language along with English. They drive horses and buggies for transportation. They practice "shunning" for any of their members who break their rules.

Although many people do not understand their simple way of life, the Amish are maintaining a very profound position. They want to be prepared for the world to come rather than for becoming rich or famous in this world. They would rather maintain a close-knit family life than travel all over. The norms and educational goals of our society which stress product centered, high pressure, technological and secular values are antithetical to Amish beliefs. Therefore, they practice old ways, slowness of pace, simplicity, close-knit agrarian living. The 80,000 Old Order Amish oppose higher education because it violates their morals, their religious convictions and takes their children away from the simple ways of the Amish.

http://www.holycrosslivonia.org/amish/origin.htm

ladybright
Sunday, November 11th, 2007, 01:08 AM
My grandfather was friendly with the local Amish. They were always polite, nice people. And talk about hard working. When they re-roofed my grandparents house they worked harder than anyone I had ever seen. It was kind of neat. My Grandma made lunch for them and they ate as hearty as they worked.

Something worth noting is that when there is a tornado or other disaster Amish regularly finish repairing their homes and then go to help their English neighbors before the government can get to it.

Ulf
Sunday, November 11th, 2007, 02:56 AM
The Amish are great. It's unfortunate around here though because many of them have had to sell their farms and then developments were built on those lands.

My wife's aunt works with many Amish people to help them keep their farms so they don't have to sell them.

Snorri Žórfinnsson
Tuesday, March 18th, 2008, 06:31 AM
I remember seeing Amish folk in rural Indiana and Ohio. They were kind and unpretentious. I don't know if I could give up modern conveniences as they do but I find a lot to admire about their lifestyle.

Gorm the Old
Tuesday, March 18th, 2008, 03:35 PM
In recent years,I have seen Amish families, still in their distinctive traditional dress, travelling by railroad . In one such family, there was a rebellious teenager whose plain black jacket had been adorned with white piping on all the edges and who carried and ostentatiously used a cell. 'phone. Whom did he find to talk to, I wonder ?

Snorri Žórfinnsson
Wednesday, March 19th, 2008, 06:39 AM
In recent years,I have seen Amish families, still in their distinctive traditional dress, travelling by railroad . In one such family, there was a rebellious teenager whose plain black jacket had been adorned with white piping on all the edges and who carried and ostentatiously used a cell. 'phone. Whom did he find to talk to, I wonder ?

I wouldn't be surprised if many Amish adolescents on Rumspringa would go a bit haywire, being allowed to sample the outside world "among the English" with all the cellphones and junk food for the first time in their life. I wonder if their parents get embarrassed?

Gorm the Old
Wednesday, March 19th, 2008, 05:35 PM
I guess not. Rumspringa is a pretty old custom and I suppose that the elders know what to expect. They can always recall the wildness of their own youth.
[I love the word. It literally means "jumping around".]

Gagnraad
Friday, March 21st, 2008, 02:11 PM
I am quite sure that the Hamish people didn't have Rumspringa from the very beginning, so do anyone know how it started?

I, as most people here, respect the Amish for turning their backs against what ruins our world, while yet being friendly folk.

Edenkoben
Thursday, March 27th, 2008, 09:12 PM
I guess not. Rumspringa is a pretty old custom and I suppose that the elders know what to expect. They can always recall the wildness of their own youth.
[I love the word. It literally means "jumping around".]

I lived for a time in rural NE Ohio, where a fairly large Amish community throve. It wasn't unusual to see buggies parked outside of the local bars. Kids would get out with their jeans and t-shirts under their arms, go inside and change, then proceed to drink beer, smoke ciggies and dance. Then, later load back into the buggy, relying on the horse to get them home safely.

However, there came a time when they had to either give all that up and join fully their community or give up their community and live with the 'English.' Most, left their 'English' ways behind.

There was, it seemed to me, a broad tolerance for this youthful kicking up of one's heels--but only to a point. Eventually, they were asked to choose.

It's interesting too to know that out-of-wedlock pregnancy is not at all uncommon. The boy-man and girl-woman stand before their congregation, 'fess up the obvious, and become engaged. There doesn't seem to be any lasting shame to this (nor, in my opinion, ought there to be); more of a "well, you've had your fun, now let's get you hitched so you can keep at it--and, by the way, let's get back to work.'

They are the only trustworthy christians I have ever met.

That last is a good lesson for a billion other christian people who are obsessed with regulating, by shame or by government, everyone else's genitals.

One more thing about the bar-visiting Amish boys--they are known to be accomplished fist-fighters. The term "winky" was, I'm told, so offensive, it nearly guaranteed a brawl.

nordicdusk
Thursday, April 3rd, 2008, 06:09 PM
We have some Amish living just outside of town here. They often come into where i work. They are so friendly and polite and who cant have respect for anyone like that.

Matthieu Borg
Friday, June 20th, 2008, 05:25 AM
I’m curious to know the opinion of the board's members, mainly Americans in relation to the Amish.


What is the your the opinion in relation to the Amish's lifestyle? Are they a true Germanic preservationist group or only a religious group?


Well, from Wiki:

The Amish are united by a common Swiss-German ancestry, language, and culture, and they marry within the Amish community. The Amish therefore meet the criteria of an ethnic group.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amish
http://amishamerica.typepad.com/


http://k53.pbase.com/o5/96/711096/1/67629124.fDjTrjLo.AmishFamily.jpg

SwordOfTheVistula
Friday, June 20th, 2008, 10:25 AM
Very nice people, their lifestyle is not for me, but I certainly respect them.

I would consider any group which conducts a lifestyle which promotes Germanic&closely related ancestries, lifestyles and cultures to be a 'preservationist' group even if they do so for religious rather than racialist reasons.

Ęmeric
Friday, June 20th, 2008, 03:00 PM
They promote Germanic preservationism but by accident. Their faith requires them to reject modern ways, which helps to preserve the lifestyles of their ancestors from Southwest Germany & Switzeralnd. And because they do not prostylize, they are preserving the genepool of the founding families of the Amish sects. It is rare for someone to marry into the Amish & when it happens it is someone with an Amish heritage but who was not raised in the Amish faith.

ladybright
Friday, June 20th, 2008, 04:57 PM
I like the Amish. In my rather limited dealings with them I have always been pleased with their honesty, hard work, kindness and straightforwardness. I think they are doing a great job of preserving their culture, spirituality and ethnicity. I think that a living culture like this is worth leaning from. Interdependence and independence together with the land and their animals.

Richard Coyle
Friday, June 20th, 2008, 07:15 PM
The Amish live all around me. I buy eggs from one family. They have a little outside refrigerator with the eggs and a money jar. I take the eggs I want, and leave the money in the jar.

They are all independent farming people, having their own schools and communities. I see the boys maybe age twelve driving a tractor working a field, and the girls the same age working outside also. They all work together, supporting each other. They are like the old preindustrial Germans. They are a very decent hard working people.

Something else worth mentioning, the Amish are all White, and of European ancestry. A perfect example of how successful we can be when given the freedom to live with our own kind. There are also no Jews all are Christian.

Allenson
Friday, June 20th, 2008, 08:08 PM
I don't know a whole lot about them--but, from what I do know, I like, appreciate and have always respected them for how they live and generally conduct themselves.

From what I understand, they are having a hard time in certain areas because of suburban encrouchment and basically getting priced out because of land values. I came across this article a few years back about how one group has left PA and headed up to northern Maine where they can find more peaceful, rural solitude.

http://www.boston.com/news/local/articles/2005/02/02/putting_down_roots?pg=full

Good for them, I say.

http://www.mooersrealty.com/amish-church.jpg

Thusnelda
Friday, June 20th, 2008, 08:33 PM
Amish are very interesting ones, for sure.

They give all of their children the opportunity to experience the modern, extern world, anyway. It is called "Rumspringa". After this "rumspringa"-time (where they can explore the modern world, going into clubs, taking drugs, dating others..and so on) they have to decide how they want to life: The Amish way of life or the extern way of life.

Most of the Amish teenagers decide themselves for the Amish world after the "Rumspringa". :)

More infos there: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rumspringa

mischak
Friday, June 20th, 2008, 08:39 PM
They seem like ok people, other than the fact I hear there are lots of hidden physical and sexual abuses of children in these communities.

Cuchulain
Friday, June 20th, 2008, 08:42 PM
They promote Germanic preservationism but by accident. Their faith requires them to reject modern ways, which helps to preserve the lifestyles of their ancestors from Southwest Germany & Switzeralnd. And because they do not prostylize, they are preserving the genepool of the founding families of the Amish sects. It is rare for someone to marry into the Amish & when it happens it is someone with an Amish heritage but who was not raised in the Amish faith.

This is beginning to change. Isolated breeding within a small population has begun to have adverse effects which the Amish are starting to notice. In some areas, the Amish will grant land and animals, help build a house etc. for any outsider white man who marries one of their daughters.

Oski
Friday, June 20th, 2008, 08:47 PM
Sigh.

If only they had a greater focus on germanic heritage without the strict christianity. They are doing the best to preserve it better than any other sect that I know of. In america its unfortunate that you have to be in a religion to even have a chance to live like this. All it takes is some kids coming out with tall tales of abuse for the government to come in and ruin it all.

mischak
Friday, June 20th, 2008, 09:38 PM
Sigh.

All it takes is some kids coming out with tall tales of abuse for the government to come in and ruin it all.

Are you serious?

NorthernDawn
Friday, June 20th, 2008, 10:15 PM
The Amish are the modern, & living embodiment of the past ideal Germanic existence, (minus the obtuse Christian expressionism). Let us all keep in mind that our Germanic ancestors lived a completely 100% agrarian existence, much as the Amish do..... until the very late 19th / early 20th century, and the wonderful culture and morals of the Germanics, which is so alive in them, is a direct reflection of their "connectedness" to their innate existence ......(ahem, blood & soil anyone?)

The Amish....may seem to be an anomile to our modern sensibilities, but they are the closest representation of the Germanic ideal on this planet, and there is much to be learned & emulated from their sense of community, tradition, family, industriousness, & respect for nature, that will fruitfully fortify our connection to our true past, & serve us well in our future quest for a rebirth of Pan-Germanic consciousness.

MockTurtle
Friday, June 20th, 2008, 10:43 PM
The Amish....may seem to be an anomile to our modern sensibilities, but they are the closest representation of the Germanic ideal on this planet, and there is much to be learned & emulated from their sense of community, tradition, family, industriousness, & respect for nature, that will fruitfully fortify our connection to our true past, & serve us well in our future quest for a rebirth of Pan-Germanic consciousness.

I think they could learn a few things from us too. For starters, they could learn that we have developed all sorts of technological wonders since the late 19th/early 20th century (like computers, for one), and that these things don't necessarily lead to spiritual or moral corruption.

IMO, the Amish are an 'interesting' group, but I don't think that their strategy is one that should really be emulated. History shows that those who can't adapt to changing conditions in a creative way will be left behind. The Amish are a perfect example; wanting to preserve and cherish certain traditions and values is not bad in itself, but if it prevents you from dealing with the advances that have taken permanent root in society, then it becomes problematic. I think that there can be a balance, for sure, with traditional moral expectations being re-integrated into the modern world. But, this isn't what the Amish are doing, they're just insulating themselves to such an extent that most people don't take them seriously at all.

William
Friday, June 20th, 2008, 10:48 PM
I agree in general with the things said so far, I had not heard about opening up the genepool though. They, as I understand, dont set out to preserve German culture. It is more of an off-shoot of their relegious aproach... that is turning away from the world 'twords God and their own community. I personaly can't go along with their "peace" stance. It has only been the U.S. and Canada where they have not faced serious persecution.

Oski
Saturday, June 21st, 2008, 08:51 AM
Are you serious?

Look every institution be it religion/cult or military/work has its perverted side. Sexual abuse is everywhere and its not going to change any time soon. I'm not calling the children liars if thats what your thinking I just think its shit when the government tears apart families and communities and act soooo surprised that sexual abuse happened as if it doesnt happen everywhere.

These amish seem to be rejecting everything that preservationists complain about so what good is it to mention them in a negative way?

Siebenbürgerin
Saturday, June 21st, 2008, 11:39 AM
I didn't know so much about the Amish until I saw a documentary where some Amish teenagers were filmed about the Rumspringa. They were put into a house with modern teenagers and I saw the big differences between the modern world and their little world there. For example, the modern teenagers didn't know how to cook while the Amish did. The Amish were also good at doing some crafts and they were more mature than the modern teenagers. The Amish remind me of the last century's rural populations, where children weren't so spoiled and they learned to do handy things out of necessity.

http://forums.skadi.net/photoplog/images/2015/large/1_Amish_children.jpg

http://forums.skadi.net/photoplog/images/2015/large/1_Young_Amish_Family.jpg

http://forums.skadi.net/photoplog/images/2015/large/1_Young_Amish_Family2.jpg

http://forums.skadi.net/photoplog/images/2015/large/1_Amish_Farm_at_Sunset.jpg

Thusnelda
Saturday, June 21st, 2008, 12:52 PM
If all chains break in our countries then maybe it´d be a good idea to search a bit of land (maybe in Siberia or a nordic island with enough farming land) and try to raise a "Germanic preservationist" society there - like the Amish succesfully did with their religious preservationism.

Cuchulain
Tuesday, June 24th, 2008, 06:13 PM
An Amish teen confronts the decision of whether to stay amish or leave the faith. Its actually pretty funny.

http://cosmos.bcst.yahoo.com/up/player/popup/?cl=8494220

Scear
Tuesday, June 24th, 2008, 06:53 PM
I have always admired the Amish and other isolationist German sects such as the Mennonites. When in the presence of these remarkable people, you feel as if you have been transported back to another time and place when Germans not only looked but acted like Germans. They are hard working, honest, faithful and loyal, trustworthy, ethical, generous, independent, temperate, and have a great sense of community. If your home burns to the ground; your neighbours will be laying the foundations for a new home the very next morning, and you will have a place at anyone's table.

We have lost this social cohesion and cultural stability in the new multiracial empires of the US and EU where the influences of non-European people have had a corrosive effect on the quality of life for Europeans who share their soil with aliens; and on the intrinsic character of western civilisation itself.

No matter what the liberals try and tell us; we all know that life is better in a homogeneous European -particularly Northern European community. I am considering changing my name to Samuel Plankmaker and moving to Lancaster Pennsylvania. Anyone for Appelbutter?

.Scear

Kriegersohn
Saturday, July 5th, 2008, 01:18 AM
I think they could learn a few things from us too. For starters, they could learn that we have developed all sorts of technological wonders since the late 19th/early 20th century (like computers, for one), and that these things don't necessarily lead to spiritual or moral corruption.

IMO, the Amish are an 'interesting' group, but I don't think that their strategy is one that should really be emulated. History shows that those who can't adapt to changing conditions in a creative way will be left behind. The Amish are a perfect example; wanting to preserve and cherish certain traditions and values is not bad in itself, but if it prevents you from dealing with the advances that have taken permanent root in society, then it becomes problematic. I think that there can be a balance, for sure, with traditional moral expectations being re-integrated into the modern world. But, this isn't what the Amish are doing, they're just insulating themselves to such an extent that most people don't take them seriously at all.

A typical misconception about the Amish. Each community decides for itself what is best for the community...integrating technology that is useful, occasionally changing it to suit their worldview. Everything is viewed in the context of how it will affect them and their way of life. Those in business for themselves or in another industry other than farming have things like computers and access to phones...they are nessesary in certain occupations. Again though, it is community specific and not a broad stroke. In regards to Rumspringa, the Amish are the only ethnic group than can boast, though they never would, to keeping 99% of its youth within the fold...this after they go out and see "the world".

Perhaps an ironic twist, but a few years back an arguement developed between Amish in the Midwest and Pennsylvannia communities over the inclusion of various technological improvements in use in farming and other industry. The Amish in the Midwest were using more improvements than anywhere else, something the Pennsylvannia communities disliked intensely...as it was done to keep Amish farms competitive with their neighbors. The result: The Pennsylvannia Amish communities were no longer looked at as a guiding light, or moral compass, for other communities as they used cooling tanks on their milk farms to get a "Grade A" rating (allowing it to be stored for human consumption) rather than traditional means which gave a grade D (suitable for cheese production)...this was seen as a gross double-standard. If memory serves, they have stopped shunning one another...though the arguement was never really brought to an amicable close. Outside of my dislike of their staunch Christian views, I see them as a model Germanic community within this country...warts and all. ;) Of course the same holds true for Old Order Mennonites and Hutterites as well. They preserve much of the rites, customs and culture that have been lost over time.

FFF
Ragnar

Birka
Saturday, July 5th, 2008, 01:54 AM
I admire the Amish. I grew up on a farm and know how hard they work every day. That is not an easy life to lead.

I have had many interactions, and have some medical knowledge about them. They are a very small in height people, but very robust, even towards the heavier side. Like settlers in the 1700's they heavily salt their foods for storage, and use animal lard as their cooking base. This leads to hypertension and heart disease. They do go to modern doctors and get state of the art modern medicines at their local pharmacies. Many also buy a lot of strange old fashioned home remedy type products that I did not even know existed. Some do use refrigerators, and some should use some olive oil, it is more heart friendly.

I guess I fear about their limited gene pool. There is something unique is seeing these people pull their buggies into the parking lot. There are actually business around here with buggy parking areas on grass with a pole to tie the horses to. (Free fertilizer if you bring your own shovel)

Talan
Saturday, July 5th, 2008, 08:42 AM
If only they had a greater focus on germanic heritage without the strict christianity.

[...]

All it takes is some kids coming out with tall tales of abuse for the government to come in and ruin it all.
It's sad alright... sad that three people thanked you for this post.


Look every institution be it religion/cult or military/work has its perverted side. Sexual abuse is everywhere and its not going to change any time soon. I'm not calling the children liars if thats what your thinking I just think its shit when the government tears apart families and communities and act soooo surprised that sexual abuse happened as if it doesnt happen everywhere.
Unless we're all missing something, the Omish Church is anti-Humanitarian.


These amish seem to be rejecting everything that preservationists complain about so what good is it to mention them in a negative way?
Explain further please.

EDIT: Your second post has been reported for religious bigotry. Don't bother responding.

Ossi
Saturday, July 5th, 2008, 05:26 PM
They're overrated, the way I see it. They aren't preservationist per se, it's just a coincidence. Ask them how many consider themselves German or have any ties to the fatherland. Besides their religion is a branch of Christianity, which is Semitic in origin and foreign to Germans, so I don't see anything "preservationist" about that.

Jute
Saturday, July 5th, 2008, 05:32 PM
They're overrated, the way I see it. They aren't preservationist per se, it's just a coincidence. Ask them how many consider themselves German or have any ties to the fatherland. Besides their religion is a branch of Christianity, which is Semitic in origin and foreign to Germans, so I don't see anything "preservationist" about that.
You would not exchange 1,000 Amish for 1,000 random selected BRDeutschen of today?

Ossi
Saturday, July 5th, 2008, 05:40 PM
You would not exchange 1,000 Amish for 1,000 random selected BRDeutschen of today?
Since they are free from indoctrination with the American "values" of tolerance, democracy and other crap, they would probably be better than BRD Germans who utter this crap daily, but that doesn't still mean that they aren't overrated. Better than the worst kind of traitors IS "better", but it ISN'T "good", let alone "best".

Walter
Friday, July 11th, 2008, 07:05 PM
The jury is still out, concerning technological wonders/ moral corruption. There is absolutely no place in the modern world for their ethical outlook. Modern "advances" have curdled the soul of society too greatly for that.

Technology is a fragile daffodil, really. One good blast from nature & it's gone.

Say what you will about the Amish, but they're survivors. It doesn't matter what outsiders think of them. When civilisation & technology (inevitably) crash, we'll be in trouble. The Amish will go on as usual.


I think they could learn a few things from us too. For starters, they could learn that we have developed all sorts of technological wonders since the late 19th/early 20th century (like computers, for one), and that these things don't necessarily lead to spiritual or moral corruption.

IMO, the Amish are an 'interesting' group, but I don't think that their strategy is one that should really be emulated. History shows that those who can't adapt to changing conditions in a creative way will be left behind. The Amish are a perfect example; wanting to preserve and cherish certain traditions and values is not bad in itself, but if it prevents you from dealing with the advances that have taken permanent root in society, then it becomes problematic. I think that there can be a balance, for sure, with traditional moral expectations being re-integrated into the modern world. But, this isn't what the Amish are doing, they're just insulating themselves to such an extent that most people don't take them seriously at all.

Volksdeutscher
Friday, July 11th, 2008, 07:33 PM
When civilisation & technology (inevitably) crash, we'll be in trouble. The Amish will go on as usual.
Yeah, I can't imagine how some of us will be able to go on without iPods. :rolleyes:

All my respect to the Amish. They are true preservationists.

http://www.dowdlefolkart.com/images/artwork/Amish---Father_medium.gif

http://www.dowdlefolkart.com/images/artwork/Amish---Mother_medium.gif

http://www.dowdlefolkart.com/images/artwork/Amish-Gathering_medium.gif

http://www.dowdlefolkart.com/images/artwork/Amish-Portrait_medium.gif

http://www.dowdlefolkart.com/images/artwork/Amish-Boys-Walking_medium.gif

mischak
Friday, July 11th, 2008, 09:26 PM
They're overrated, the way I see it. They aren't preservationist per se, it's just a coincidence. Ask them how many consider themselves German or have any ties to the fatherland. Besides their religion is a branch of Christianity, which is Semitic in origin and foreign to Germans, so I don't see anything "preservationist" about that.

I'm pretty sure the majority of them consider themselves German, and they don't even teach kids English until they start school.

As for this "traitor" stuff, there's no saying whether or not the ancestors of the Germanics who live in Europe now decided not to immigrate to the "New World" for no other reason than they couldn't afford it. Perhaps they couldn't travel due to sick family members or other responsibilities that prevented them from leaving. The point is, just because they didn't leave doesn't mean none of them had the intent to become "traitors" and wouldn't have left as well given the chance. This may or may not be the case for many, but let's not act like everyone who never left Europe was some crusader for Germanics, because it's very likely that's not the case.

Lyfing
Friday, July 11th, 2008, 11:25 PM
I can’t knock the Amish .. even though God is Dead.

I stayed with my Grandmother a lot, and around every Christmas my Mennonite kinfolk would come around. I remember their blond hair and bonnets, and just general very good character. The first memory I have of them was when I was five-ish at my Aunt Edith’s ( my Grandmother’s Aunt ) funeral. I must have asked her something about her dying, and my Grandmother said.. because "she didn’t believe in going to the doctor."

She would say "You know right from wrong"
http://i36.tinypic.com/rlkuh0.jpg
..Now I am beyond good and evil

Anyway, I’m all for saying to Hel with society and living the old ways..

Later,
- Lyfing

Kriegersohn
Monday, July 14th, 2008, 09:33 AM
I'm pretty sure the majority of them consider themselves German, and they don't even teach kids English until they start school.

As for this "traitor" stuff, there's no saying whether or not the ancestors of the Germanics who live in Europe now decided not to immigrate to the "New World" for no other reason than they couldn't afford it. Perhaps they couldn't travel due to sick family members or other responsibilities that prevented them from leaving. The point is, just because they didn't leave doesn't mean none of them had the intent to become "traitors" and wouldn't have left as well given the chance. This may or may not be the case for many, but let's not act like everyone who never left Europe was some crusader for Germanics, because it's very likely that's not the case.

Most speak their own dialect amongst themselves, learn Hochdeutsch (my mother, Oma and Opa had a few good conversations with them) and English in school. Most that I've seen consider themselves German (though the word American German or German-American does come to mind :) ). I don't think that there are any Amish left in Europe, most of the ones that stayed became Mennonites.

As for the issue on leaving Europe, Germany in particular...the process of leaving at that time was very hard. Paperwork and endless fees at home plus paying more taxes going through various other states made leaving an expensive proposition. It was no wonder that many of the Hessian troops that fought here stayed (some estimate that as many as 10,000 Hessian troops remained after the war), far cheaper than going back home and trying to come back. But that is a different group. ;)

Ossi - They still have many traditions that are lost in modern Germany. So yeah, I'd say they were preservationist group, whether they like it or not or whether I care for their religion.

Just a couple of thoughts...:p

FFF
Ragnar

Ossi
Monday, July 14th, 2008, 12:46 PM
I'm pretty sure the majority of them consider themselves German, and they don't even teach kids English until they start school.

As for this "traitor" stuff, there's no saying whether or not the ancestors of the Germanics who live in Europe now decided not to immigrate to the "New World" for no other reason than they couldn't afford it. Perhaps they couldn't travel due to sick family members or other responsibilities that prevented them from leaving. The point is, just because they didn't leave doesn't mean none of them had the intent to become "traitors" and wouldn't have left as well given the chance. This may or may not be the case for many, but let's not act like everyone who never left Europe was some crusader for Germanics, because it's very likely that's not the case.
They are NOT true preservationists. Passing down Christianity is NOT Germanic preservation. Germanics are either Pagans or Atheists/Agnostics. Christianity is an alien religion to Germanics, so they are preserving Semitic, not Germanic tradition.

ladybright
Monday, July 14th, 2008, 04:08 PM
Regardless of wither they fit your idea of 'Ideal real preservationists' they have done a lot to preserve the spirit of germanic independence, honor and hospitality as well as their ethnicity.

They do what they do because it is what they believe is right for their society.

Oski
Thursday, August 21st, 2008, 06:33 AM
Settlements established in seven new states since 1992

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26315790

LANCASTER, Pennsylvania - The Amish are expanding their presence in states far beyond Pennsylvania Dutch country as they search for affordable farmland to accommodate a population that has nearly doubled in the past 16 years, a new study found.

Also known as Anabaptists, the Amish are Christians who reject most modern conveniences and rely on horse-drawn carriages. They dress in plain, old fashioned clothing and strive for modesty and self-reliance.

Pennsylvania, Ohio and Indiana continue to be the geographic center for the Amish, accounting for about two-thirds of the faith's population. They also accounted for more than half of the total population gain.

States such as Missouri, Kentucky and Minnesota have seen increases in their Amish populations of more than 130 percent. The Amish now number an estimated 227,000 nationwide, up from 123,000 in 1992, according to researchers from Elizabethtown College's Young Center for Anabaptist and Pietist Studies.

Over the same period, Amish settlements have been established in seven new states, putting them in at least 28 states from coast to coast. The new states are: Arkansas, Colorado, Maine, Mississippi, Nebraska, Washington and West Virginia.

"When we think they might be dying out or merely surviving, they are actually thriving," said Elizabethtown professor Don Kraybill, a leading expert on the Amish who shared his research from an upcoming book with The Associated Press.

Large families, some conversions
Amish couples typically have five or more children. With more than four out of every five deciding in young adulthood to remain within the church, their population has grown steadily. More than half the population is under 21.

A small amount of the increase is also due to conversions to the faith.

The Amish are attracted to areas with relatively cheap farms, a rural lifestyle and nonfarming jobs such as construction or cabinet making that fit their values and allow them to remain independent. In some cases, they have migrated to resolve leadership problems or escape church-related disputes.

The Amish began arriving in Pennsyvlania's Lancaster County around 1730. Along with English, they speak a German dialect called Pennsylvania Dutch or Pennsylvania German.

In Intercourse, a town just east of Lancaster popular with tourists, Amish goat farmer Lester Stoltzfus said a number of families had moved recently to other states in search of affordable farmland.

"It's fine with me if people move out," Stoltzfus, 37, said from his farm along a country lane hemmed in by cornfields. "There are too many people living here anyway."

Old conflicts revived
As they move into new areas, some of the conflicts that occurred years earlier in established Amish settlements are playing out again, often involving issues such as building codes or waste treatment.

In Mayfield, Ken., an area into which a few hundred Amish have moved in recent years, seven men are fighting charges they operated horse-drawn buggies without the flashing lights and orange safety triangles that state law requires.

"They are moving into new states and settling or establishing new settlements in communities where local officials aren't acquainted with them. That creates some misunderstanding on zoning issues or other unique factors in Amish practice," Kraybill said.

At the same time, some businesses have been glad to accommodate the Amish. In Mayfield, hardware store owner Dan Falder said his business is one of several to install hitching posts where the Amish can tie up their horses.

Now when Falder looks across the parking lot, he sees horse manure. "That's new within the last few years," he said.

But eight states with at least 1,000 Amish residents had higher rates of growth, led by Kentucky, which saw its population jump 200 percent, from 2,835 to 8,505, the study found.

The number of Amish "districts" — congregations that usually consist of two or three dozen families — has increased by 84 percent in the past 16 years, from 929 to 1,711.

The arrival of the Amish can raise land prices, and their self-reliance translates into a relatively low burden on public services.

Dennis Hubbard, a government official in Sheldon Township, Wis., said the newcomers seldom appear in the court system, require long-term care or attend public schools.

"As they live their lives, they really do not become very involved with government," said Hubbard, whose state has seen its Amish population climb 117 percent since 1992.

At least 350 Amish families migrated into Missouri, New York or Wisconsin between 2002 and 2007. Over the same period, about 520 families moved out of Ohio and some 470 left Pennsylvania.

Group migration
"One family doesn't go — there is a group of them that goes, like two or three or four," said Fannie Erb-Miller, national editor of The Budget, a weekly newspaper serving the Amish that is based in Sugarcreek, Ohio.

Once a settlement has six families and at least one minister, they qualify to send The Budget dispatches about their activities, often with an invitation for others to join them.

"They can continue to let people know: We're here, come visit us, how the land is, the orchards do great or whatever," Erb-Miller said.

Kraybill said only families who use horse-drawn buggies and call themselves Amish were considered Amish for purposes of his research.

Researchers combed Amish publications and mined other sources to determine where new settlements were being established and to count the total number of districts.

They used a figure of 135 people per church district to calculate population estimates, but the study cautions that its method could result in numbers that are too high for newer settlements and too low in long-established Amish communities.

In Ontario, Canada, the only Amish community outside the United States also is growing. It consists of about 4,500 people, up from 2,300 in 1992.

The Amish have noticed their changing demographics. The population boom is posing practical challenges for a people who, for example, often pay non-Amish "taxis" — private vehicles — to take them on longer trips.

"An Amish woman said, 'We joke among ourselves, if we keep growing at this rate, soon half the world will be Amish and the other half will be taxi drivers,'" Kraybill said.

Ulf
Thursday, August 21st, 2008, 10:04 AM
Having been around the Amish and Mennonites most of life, I don't see how you can really admire their strict isolationism and inbreeding... They get points for doing it better than most others though..

That said, my family was most likely Amish at one point way back in time. I've got a book detailing my maternal grandmother's side of the family all the way back to a man named Christian in Grosshöchstetten in Switzerland. He was incarcerated there in 1710 with 30 others for their religious beliefs.

My first decendent arrived in America in August of 1732 and bought 300 acres of land in Berks County, where I currently live. In fact the farm of my great-great-great grandfather is now underneath a development, yet the road is still named after his farm. (I tell my wife "It's MY road" :p )


Recently due to loss of the Pennsylvania German language (among others)- in many communities, as well as to intermarriage and increased mobility, especially in the more secular communities, Pennsylvania Dutch ethnic consciousness is often very low, especially among younger Pennsylvania Dutch. Many young Pennsylvania Dutch consider themselves only descendants of Pennsylvania Dutch and it is not part of their personal identity. However many of those raised in the immediate area, or those who have close ties there, still hold those ties close even if their parents don't emphasize those ties. In some communities the Pennsylvania Dutch name is reserved only for members of the Amish and traditional Mennonite communities.

This is something I actively combat. I identify as a Pennsylvania German. I'm proud of my heritage, I'm not Amish or Mennonite. I've learned conversational German and I'm trying to apply it to learn Deitsch. My maternal grandfather speaks Deitsch and converses with the Amish pretty regularly. He always says how he'll hear the Amish saying things about the 'English' i.e., him, and they are always quite surprised when he answers them in Deitsch.

They could care less though which language they speak and what customs they practice, the only reason they practice them is because it's all they've known. Sure, they're 'German', but they're not out to preserve their Germanness. They're trying to get to heaven.

Cuchulain
Thursday, August 21st, 2008, 01:56 PM
They are NOT true preservationists. Passing down Christianity is NOT Germanic preservation. Germanics are either Pagans or Atheists/Agnostics. Christianity is an alien religion to Germanics, so they are preserving Semitic, not Germanic tradition.

Perhaps they should abandon the Arabic number system, algebra, the concept of zero, and decimals. (Although they'd be hard pressed to come up with many more ingenious Germanic inventions.)

rainman
Tuesday, September 30th, 2008, 10:10 PM
Well the thing is that according to their ideology allowing in non-Germans into their community and speaking another language is perfectly acceptable. Many probably wont accept this because the nature of Christianity is to be a hypocrite but the whole foundational ideology doesn't support preservation, it is just a chance by-product. Therefore it probably will not be stable into the future.

Another thing to note: The Amish were killed in Europe. The remainder converted back to being "normal". The reason is they don't believe in fighting. So here you have a people that don't believe in standing up for themselves and also don't really have anything in their culture or belief system that teaches them to maintain their race or culture. So it isn't a sustainable way to preserve the folk.

However I would like to learn a lot of the good things from the Amish an integrate that into an Asatru planned community and bring back tribalism (which the Amish do practice tribalism).

The other thing it is rather odd that the government hasn't tried to force integration of blacks into Amish schools or to ship black people or non-whites in the middle of Amish communities in the name of "diversity". I guess they are a low priority because they are so non threatening and seemingly backward.

Another thing to note: they are against education. I understand that modern schooling in many ways is dumbed down and can be a waste of time especially in an agrarian society, but they shun it all together. If you want to go to College and be Amish the two are incompatable. Maybe you could be a mennonite, but generally I don't see how an ideology of being ignorant, uneducated and a complete pacifist is really going to save your folk in the long term.

As American population expands land prices will go up and the Amish will be forced to adapt or die out. Though I believe they will adapt. Right now their community is so large that if they were confronted with violence or some other threat they might have a few "extremist" splinter out of their group and take to defending themselves or adopting a more ethnic based ideology, but as it stands now it really isn't a sustainable way of life in my opinion. No people in the history of the planet of lasted a long time without at least defending themselves.

Ulf
Wednesday, October 22nd, 2008, 10:35 PM
Here's a few I posted about the Deitsch and Amish.

http://forums.skadi.net/showthread.php?t=100784

http://forums.skadi.net/showthread.php?t=100785

http://forums.skadi.net/showthread.php?t=100786

http://forums.skadi.net/showthread.php?t=100787

Jonathan Eells
Monday, November 10th, 2008, 03:53 AM
Sure, there's the whole Sheeple thing that wouldn't float in my family, but there are some very good reasons to for keeping good neighbors with the Amish. I won't blather on too much. I think the first and most important reason to be friendly, to move in even, begins with the question, "So, how do you grow all your own food again?"

Things are going to be weird in a little while. The oil economy will turn out to have been a temporary phenomenon. Other disasters may befall us all. It's going to be really important for us all to know how to produce food.

And as soon as my pile of gold and silver goes up in value, I'm going to use it to buy a WHOLE LOT of land and plant it, and run hogs and sheep on it, and be happy all of my days.

The Dragonslayer
Wednesday, November 12th, 2008, 05:29 AM
I have nothing but respect and admiration for the Amish. I wish them all the best. They stay in my prayers.

Kriemhild
Tuesday, January 27th, 2009, 04:17 PM
Thanks to all the previous posters for this great information! :thumbup I myself have strong Pennsylvania "Deutsch" ties, with family originally from the Rhineland-Palatinate on my maternal side.

Imperator X
Tuesday, January 27th, 2009, 09:44 PM
I am a Pittsburgh Steelers fan, and all Pittsburgh sports teams' colors are Black and Gold. The Flag of the old Austrian Empire was colored Black and Gold. My great grandmother was from southern Germany, my fathers' side settled in Pittsburgh, I wonder if the Black and Gold is due to southern German immigrants?

http://www.knowledgerush.com/wiki_image/1/1c/Habsburg_Flag.png http://www1.whdh.com/images/news_articles/389x205/061106_Pittsburgh_Steelers_logo.jpg
Coincidence?

Resurgam
Wednesday, January 28th, 2009, 03:53 AM
I believe that the 19th century industrial era immigrants to Pittsburgh heavily represented Swabia.

Imperator X
Wednesday, January 28th, 2009, 06:47 AM
I believe that the 19th century industrial era immigrants to Pittsburgh heavily represented Swabia.

They were exclusively Protestants no?

PA. Dutchman
Wednesday, May 12th, 2010, 05:22 AM
Pennsylvania Dutch Are Of German Heritage, Not Dutch. How glad I am to find that you know this, nearly no one in America knows this except we PA. Dutch.

Devin De Blois
Saturday, May 15th, 2010, 11:22 AM
I have a PA Dutch line supposedly out of Silesia called Tschudy on my fathers' side and I've always known it was in reference to Germans. ;)

Ediruc
Thursday, July 15th, 2010, 11:53 PM
The Obama administration has developed a keen interest in the Amish folks of Lancaster County, Pa., due to their lifestyle and not their carbon footprint. The cattle on their dairy farms produce milk and manure.

It is claimed that great piles of manure are the source of pollutants from Lancaster County to the Chesapeake Bay due to run-off from heavy rains. Lancaster County is far from the Chesapeake Bay.

Agents have been dispatched to "educate" the Amish in methods the Obama administration requires for lifestyle changes. They use no electricity and few automobiles, so how dare they live without government assistance?

There is no information given on how the administration determined their manure was the particular pollutant.

How was that particular pollutant identified after being mixed with waters of the Potomac, which also carries runoff from Washington, D.C.?

Is this an attempt to blame the Amish for the pollution caused by all the "BS" in Washington, D.C., or is this just the result of the president's search for an ass to kick?


http://www.dailymail.com/Opinion/201007130898

WOW! This is so disgusting. Seriously, what the hell have the Amish done to deserve this? JUST LEAVE THEM ALONE. This just proves...no matter who you are, if you are of European stock, you will be a target for ridicule and your life will be made a living hell.

SpearBrave
Friday, July 16th, 2010, 12:33 AM
I am very good friends with several Amish and they don't want don't believe in a central government. The place their religion and their folk before government. They are also exempted from paying SSI and Medicare taxes.


The obama agenda also is attacking them for selling produce and meat without a license. They are specifically named in one of the new farm bills. The permit to sell vegetables to public has over a over 900 page application in English. Most older Amish I know only have basic English reading skills. Most of their reading skills are learned from the bible and it is printed in High German.

They do pay income and property tax, but not any other taxes. Since they always pay cash or barter for their goods. The government does not know how to track their income. That is what this is all about.

The ones I know are also racialist they believe the dark skinned people are the sons of Cain and should not be trusted. I have had this discussion many times with them.

Make no mistake about it this is another attack on Germanic folk. How typical for obama to say he is looking out for the welfare of everybody. What he really wants is control over all. He figures that they don't vote and they won't fight back. He is wrong the Amish have many friends in the modern world that will fight for them.

Leave these people alone they are not hurting anybody.

EQ Fighter
Friday, July 16th, 2010, 01:11 AM
Make no mistake about it this is another attack on Germanic folk. How typical for obama to say he is looking out for the welfare of everybody. What he really wants is control over all. He figures that they don't vote and they won't fight back. He is wrong the Amish have many friends in the modern world that will fight for them.

Leave these people alone they are not hurting anybody.

Yeah I would be one of them. I think the next time the SOB's of the democratic party are expelled from the White House and Government, then there should be a "Final Solution" put to them. Which would have been much easier for GB had he been a real conservative.

We need to insure that Democrats are "Completely" driven out of the political system, and that we amend the Constitution which they do not obey so they are bared from political access in the US.

PA. Dutchman
Friday, July 16th, 2010, 02:54 AM
We live in this area of PA. and Obama would be a fool, well I should say a BIGGER FOOL, to under estimate the Amish of Pennsylvania.

Some of the wisest folks we have in PA are in the Amish community.

The Amish live everyday to honor and please their God. HE is not going to forget their faithfulness.

Obama is a self serving self centered fool.

What shocked my wife and I a few months ago was we were shopping at Good's Store in East Earl, PA. There was a Muslim woman in front of us at the registered. I said to the cashier I never thought we would ever see Muslims in Lancaster Co. He said NEITHER DID WE!:)

The Amish work hard to purchase land to keep their families and farms together. The Muslims have money and maybe a problem for the Amish who are trying to purchase any available farm land.

The Amish and Mennonites are good people with only good intentions. Muslims can not co-exist in peace with each other, let alone Christians.

Nachtengel
Thursday, September 16th, 2010, 05:25 PM
Jeff Martin, USA Today, September 14, 2010

Bright yellow signs with a horse and buggy symbol dot the gravel roads in the gently rolling hills near here, and the town has placed hitching posts for horses along Main Street.

The new road signs, more familiar in rural areas of Pennsylvania, Ohio and Indiana, are emblems of a trend being seen in many Western states which are welcoming an increasing number of Amish.

The Amish population is growing and embarking on a westward migration that has now reached as far as Colorado, South Dakota and Montana, according to an annual survey by Elizabethtown College in Pennsylvania, which tracks the Amish.

In the past year, the North American Amish population has grown 5%, an increase from 237,500 in 2009 to 249,500 today, the survey found.

{snip} The survey attributes the population boom to Amish families tending to be large, with five children or more on average.

{snip}

Reasons for the Amish migration are varied, but some have left states such as Ohio and Pennsylvania as development has encroached into the rural areas where they’ve traditionally lived, says Donald Kraybill, a professor at Elizabethtown College who has done extensive research on Amish culture.

{snip}

In southeastern South Dakota, about 70 Amish live near the small town of Tripp, and routinely visit local stores to pick up supplies for their dairy farms.

{snip}

Klatt makes the handmade signs seen around town that advertise weekly bake sales at one of the Amish farmsteads, and she visits them occasionally and tries to bring along strawberry-flavored marshmallows or some other special treat for the Amish children.

{snip}

In Pennsylvania, the state with the most Amish (nearly 60,000), the economic downturn has led some Amish to seek work they’ve never considered before. Outside Lancaster, Elias Beiler recently bought a restaurant business and potato chip company because of a slowdown in the building industry.

{snip}

http://www.amren.com/mtnews/archives/2010/09/amish_populatio_1.php

Hilderinc
Thursday, September 16th, 2010, 11:51 PM
Some good news among all the bad that is usually posted here.

The Amish are kind, hardworking, and true to their ideals/culture. Good to see some Germanics are doing okay. If you are ever traveling and have a chance to visit an Amish community, do so!

Hellbound
Friday, September 17th, 2010, 05:31 AM
The Dinosaurs were awesome but the turtles survived. The sabertooth tiger was deadly, but the turtle kept on.

And so it continues as the turtle calmly passes the others on its way toward victory. No matter how backward they may seem and no matter how powerful you become; the future belongs to the turtle.

Ralf
Friday, September 17th, 2010, 10:16 AM
On subsequently following the links whilst looking up the Amish, (Iam trying to find a Christian religion that doesnt worship the sun-worshipping Trinity), I couldnt help noticing that so many Christian religions where Germanic.

There is the Anglican Church of course, but this was only as a result of England jumping on the bandwagon of Martin Luther in order to break free of Catholic rule, not a genuine search for religious truth.

Seems to me the rest of the world will just blindly follow whatever some false shephard tells them about God, the Germans seem to at least have the ability to question and break free from the dogma of others.

OneWolf
Sunday, September 19th, 2010, 09:11 AM
The Amish are really good people and sometimes I wish my Great Grandfather
would have never left the clan.If Civilization ever crumbles,these people will
have no trouble making it.They live closer to nature and without all the immoral technology that has plagued and ruined people.Got to respect that!

JanErik
Saturday, November 13th, 2010, 07:00 PM
Not to mean to bring up a semi-dead thread, but as a new user I cannot send private IM's. I wish to ask anyone here if there is still any PA Dutch Nationalist organizations?

Deitscherei.org iss nett druffschridden, unn fur deitscherei.com ich waiz nett.

Meister
Saturday, January 15th, 2011, 11:44 PM
The Dinosaurs were awesome but the turtles survived. The sabertooth tiger was deadly, but the turtle kept on.

And so it continues as the turtle calmly passes the others on its way toward victory. No matter how backward they may seem and no matter how powerful you become; the future belongs to the turtle.

No matter what changes in terms of technology, political parties etc some things will always be necessary. Population and food production.

We have forgotten this and in our pursuit for SUV's, holidays and promotions we have allowed ourselves to be fed by corporations and our populations have dwindled prompting our money hungry Governments to import inferior cultures and people.

Nice to hear some positive news about our people especially such a pure people.

Magni
Monday, January 17th, 2011, 07:27 PM
I wish the Amish would have a bit of a reformation. It would be nice if they would educate themselves and their children beyond an eight grade level. I think it would only benefit them but I guess if what they are doing works for them then it can't be all that bad. Maybe.

Meister
Monday, January 17th, 2011, 11:50 PM
I wish the Amish would have a bit of a reformation. It would be nice if they would educate themselves and their children beyond an eight grade level. I think it would only benefit them but I guess if what they are doing works for them then it can't be all that bad. Maybe.

The Arab muslims seem to be doing quite well without a great level of intelligence, in fact it would be the very reason they are running all over the PC morons in Europe.

I don't mean this as an insult merely an observation of reality. Less educated people tend to keep their animal instincts to survive and dominate. The educated ones get all sorts of crazy ideas like socialism and think that their intelligence will prevail over anyone.

We have learned otherwise. Tradition, strong family and culture is all you need to prevail, education is great don't get me wrong, it's not the be all and end all.

Hilderinc
Monday, January 17th, 2011, 11:57 PM
I wish the Amish would have a bit of a reformation. It would be nice if they would educate themselves and their children beyond an eight grade level. I think it would only benefit them but I guess if what they are doing works for them then it can't be all that bad. Maybe.

But they don't need that high a level of education. (Keep in mind education is not the same as intelligence)

Most farmers did not complete high school or even middle school, simply because being taught things in preparation for specialized jobs was not necessary. Farming and everything they need to know for it was taught to them by their parents from day 1. Why waste time learning things that you will never use in life? (of course Amish do more than farm, but you get the picture)

Meaning: they don't need school because they are taught by their family/community. And they are by no means stupid/ignorant/unintelligent because their lack of schooling.

Magni
Monday, January 17th, 2011, 11:59 PM
Making that comment I was trying to not be insulting as well.

Think of the accomplishments that Germanic individuals have made thanks to their great intelligence though. Music, science, art. Some of the greatest contributions to the world at large. Realistically, hope for the survival of Germanic people may lie with groups such as the Amish. They have the same tool that the jews possess, an ethnicity tied to a religion, and they are a minority group. I would just like to see them move beyond some of the constraints that they have. It would be wonderful.

SpearBrave
Tuesday, January 18th, 2011, 12:22 AM
I wish the Amish would have a bit of a reformation. It would be nice if they would educate themselves and their children beyond an eight grade level. I think it would only benefit them but I guess if what they are doing works for them then it can't be all that bad. Maybe.


Well I don't think you are insulting them what so ever.:)

There are however different types of Amish. The ones I'm most familiar with are the Old Order Amish. They are the most primitive if you can call it that, primitive being subjective in this sense. ;)

It is very true they don't educate past the 8Th grade. They have their reasons for this, and mainly it is because they don't need to. However kind in mind that all of the young men are trilingual. The speak English, High German, and their own language which my mother calls Plattdeutsch(sp ?). I have also noticed great math skills in these young people. They are also taught how to teach themselves. They are very avid readers of most anything that interest them. When some of them do leave that lifestyle they are real quick to learn almost anything we know.

About them with their large families. I have been told by them the reason they have so many children is to keep their faith alive. The good side of this that close to 50% of them leave and become part of modern society.

wittwer
Wednesday, January 19th, 2011, 05:22 PM
I've lived around Amish almost all my life. Never had a problem with them. Most of the time they stick to themselves, except in their Commercial activities. Which by the way, I trust far more than the Public Business School Grads. run Business. With them, you get top quality product at a fair price and they are completely trustworthy. Unlike most Business types.

As for the population growth, its tied to their Agarian lifestyle where children a needed to help run the farms. Something America did when it was predominately a family farm based Agarian Society. As for the migration West, this is due to the need for more arable Farmland for the expanding population. As a matter of fact, they are better Farmers than most of the Corporate Farms that now exist in the U.S.

The only problem, is the "Horse & Buggies" some of them drive to town. It's not their fault, but the nut cases behind the wheels of cars and trucks who think the County and State Highways in the Rural Areas are wide open racetracks...

Which prompted the following joke:

"What do you get when a Ford Falcon slams into a Horse and Buggy"?
"Bird Feathers and Horse Shit all over the road". ;)

Caledonian
Wednesday, January 19th, 2011, 05:52 PM
Geez, I wonder what the Amish women are doing comparably different in contrast to the modern western living women who have hardly any children at all. ;) :thumbdown

Strangely enough I almost joined the Amish myself back in my younger days even spending a month amongst them not because I was religious but because I was drawn to the simplicity of their living that was less stressful and absurd to the technological industrial standards of modern society that we have.

Meister
Wednesday, January 19th, 2011, 06:07 PM
About them with their large families. I have been told by them the reason they have so many children is to keep their faith alive. The good side of this that close to 50% of them leave and become part of modern society.

I think this is the number one reason, the second being to help them run their farms.

In our secular modern society kids are a burden, they create work and cost money. And due to religious beliefs being not important to many people, not many see past their own lifetime so they aren't interested in keeping a culture or faith alive.

Ęmeric
Wednesday, January 19th, 2011, 09:38 PM
I think this is the number one reason, the second being to help them run their farms.

Not all Amish are farmers. Many of them work in carpentry & furniture making. They work construction or in local factories. The women might work at restaurants or at housekeeping at motels. They might use modern technology in their place-of-work (electricity for example) even if they don't use it at home.

Naglfari
Thursday, January 27th, 2011, 01:18 AM
I just want to bring attention to the Pennsylvanian German community. Not just the Amish. I am just going to copy and paste this since it is so well written (and on the Philadelphia government website)
http://libwww.freelibrary.org/fraktur/guide.cfm#PA_Germans


The history of fraktur is inseparable from the experiences of early German-speaking immigrants and the birth of Pennsylvania German culture. Large numbers of German-speaking people began to move to North America in the 1700s. Many of these immigrants were members of devout religious communities that hoped to find religious tolerance in this new land. Fraktur tell the story of how different immigrant groups united to form a new culture, helping to shape us into the American people we are today.

An estimated 120,000 German-speaking immigrants settled in North America between 1683 and 1820. By 1790, Germans were among the largest European ethnic groups in the United States – second in size only to the English. Most German-speaking immigrants lived in Pennsylvania. There, the number of people with German ancestry almost equaled that of the English. Of the 435,000 Pennsylvania residents, an astounding 140,000 people – or nearly 33% of the population – were German. This is only slightly less than the 35% who were English.

Most Germans who settled in Pennsylvania landed in the port of Philadelphia. Nearly 37,000 German-speaking immigrants entered the city during the peak of this migration between 1749 and 1754. Most eventually moved away from the city to the fertile soil of southeastern Pennsylvania. Later generations traveled further south into the Shenandoah Valley through Maryland, Virginia and the Carolinas. Others migrated west into Ohio and north into Ontario, Canada.

German-speaking immigrants came from many different European states and principalities, including Wurtemberg, Swabia, Alsace, Baden-Durlach, Hesse, Switzerland and the Palatinate. Several of these areas lay outside of the present-day borders of Germany – which did not officially become a nation until 1871. While the people of these regions shared some commonalities, they had their own local traditions and took pride in their homelands. German-speaking immigrants brought a variety of customs with them to North America.

The importance of regional divisions quickly dwindled in their new home. German-speaking immigrants realized that the differences between them were small in comparison to those they encountered with the English. Non-German neighbors often reinforced this attitude by treating all Germans as if they came from the same culture.

German-speaking immigrants may have also encouraged this belief. They settled close together and established their own German-language schools and churches. Their previously diverse traditions and dialects eventually blended together to form a unique Pennsylvania German folk culture.

Pennsylvania Germans integrated this rich heritage into every aspect of their lives. It became a part of their clothing, food, furnishings and architecture. It was even integrated into their farming methods. Pennsylvania Germans expressed their vibrant culture in a distinctive German speech pattern and with colorful folk arts – such as fraktur. Immigrants who later moved to other regions took these rich traditions with them, giving Pennsylvania German culture a presence throughout North America.

The Christian church was at the heart of the Pennsylvania German community. Fraktur – along with hymnbooks and the Bible – were an important part of their religious lives. Pennsylvania German churches are similar in many respects, though they often differ over matters concerning the religious rites of baptism and communion. The particular beliefs and practices of many of these churches were established during the 1500s, when common people became dissatisfied with the doctrines and perceived corruption of the Catholic Church.

Prior to 1820, most Pennsylvania Germans were members of the Lutheran Church or the German Reformed Church. Combined, these were the largest Christian denominations in German-speaking Europe. In America, the similarities between Lutheran and German Reformed Churches were strong enough that church members frequently established “Union Churches.” Union churches allowed two separate congregations to combine their resources for worship services and youth education. Because of their larger population, followers of the Lutheran Church and the German Reformed Church produced most American fraktur.

Only 10% of the early German-speaking immigrants belonged to the independent religious communities of the Schwenkfelders, Brethren or Dunkards, Moravians, Amish and Mennonites. Though smaller in size, these communities still play a significant role in the active preservation of Pennsylvania German culture.

I have German Mennonite ancestry and this quoted text was written on the Free Library of Philadelphia's website which is very positive. It is good to see.
Some images:

Schattenjäger
Thursday, January 27th, 2011, 01:50 AM
Hey, that's extremely interesting! Thanks! :thumbup

Loyalist
Thursday, January 27th, 2011, 02:05 AM
With the exception of a few early Palatines who initially settled in New York, most of my German ancestry is by way of Pennsylvania. There are a few Mennonites in there, too. Thank you for an interesting read. :)

Hilderinc
Thursday, January 27th, 2011, 02:07 AM
I have German Mennonite ancestry and this quoted text was written on the Free Library of Philadelphia's website which is very positive. It is good to see.

Pennsylvania Germans/Amish/Mennonites are the only Germanic group who are allowed to 'non-racistly' preserve their culture and traditions. Wonderful people :)

Thanks for the good article.

Naglfari
Thursday, January 27th, 2011, 01:45 PM
Ah there already was a thread on this. Cool!

Schattenjäger
Thursday, January 27th, 2011, 02:01 PM
Ah there already was a thread on this. Cool!

Usually there is a thread on everything at Skadi :P

Lee Thierwechter
Saturday, May 14th, 2011, 10:39 PM
Would anybody be interested in starting a Pennsylvania Dutch preservation and advancement group? I'd have to say my Dutch is pretty broken, and I'd like to improve it, that being said I am only a Junior (soon to be Senior) in High School and have my whole life ahead of me to work on this, so just send my a message or email me at: dukeredsleeve@yahoo.com and we can speak (Mer kann in deitsch sproochen).

Schafkopf
Sunday, May 15th, 2011, 09:58 AM
Would anybody be interested in starting a Pennsylvania Dutch preservation and advancement group? I'd have to say my Dutch is pretty broken, and I'd like to improve it, that being said I am only a Junior (soon to be Senior) in High School and have my whole life ahead of me to work on this, so just send my a message or email me at: dukeredsleeve@yahoo.com and we can speak (Mer kann in deitsch sproochen).

I am interested, not to learn "Deitsch" but to understand more this dialect. I am going to visit North America and maybe I get the possiblility to visit some Amish people and live there for a while. I am excited!

Lee Thierwechter
Sunday, May 15th, 2011, 05:33 PM
I am interested, not to learn "Deitsch" but to understand more this dialect. I am going to visit North America and maybe I get the possiblility to visit some Amish people and live there for a while. I am excited!

I would've PM'd you but, I can't until I have 15 posts, most Amish or Mennonites speak it at home and would be able to explain it better then me. But I'd like to warn you; some of them can be really unfriendly, not all of them, but some of them. Also if you go in PA around the Blue Mountain area try http://www.dietrichsmeats.com/

Excellent food, there is also several Pennsylvania Dutch towns (usually having Dutch restaurants, food isn't the most healthy, pretty salty) in PA, Ohio and Indiana. Half of the culture surrounding the Pennsylvania Dutch is food, which is why I mention it.

Meadhbh
Sunday, May 15th, 2011, 09:27 PM
They do have a thing about food. We have a fair amount of amish around here. Oddly enough most of it I've come across is on the sweet side. Of course I don't know if thats every thing or just me. But then, nothing wrong with that in the first place.

Wręcca
Sunday, May 15th, 2011, 09:41 PM
I remember watching a program on the BBC about the Amish community, presented by Louis Theroux. They came across as down to earth people who are in tune with their culture and environment :thumbup

I also recall hearing that they refered to anyone else in the US as 'English' - unfortunately in the case of 90% of Americans that statement is now incorrect :(

SpearBrave
Sunday, May 15th, 2011, 10:01 PM
A note about the Amish at least the old order Amish ( yes they have different order/groups ) even though they speak Penn Dutch as their common tongue they most likely speak high German as well. All of their printed material including their bibles are in high German and even their church services are in high German in many cases depending on which settlement you are in.

They do have trouble understanding Bavarian dialect so you should keep that in mind also.;)

Schafkopf
Monday, May 16th, 2011, 01:11 PM
I would've PM'd you but, I can't until I have 15 posts

The same problem like me! But when I have 15 posts, I am going to write back who sent me PM`s...


A note about the Amish at least the old order Amish ( yes they different order/groups ) even though the speak Penn Dutch as their common tongue they most likely speak high German as well. All of their printed material including their bibles are in high German and even their church services are in high German in many cases depending on which settlement you are in.

I watched a documentation about old order Amish and most of them were speaking English, also the youngest among themselves. Some teenager even use mobile phones...

Is that the normal case? Did anyone see the Amish in real and heard them speaking?


They do have trouble understanding Bavarian dialect so you should keep that in mind also.

The Franconian dialect is more similar to the Palatinate than the Bavarian... I can also understand the Swabian dialect which is quit similar to the Palatinate one, but all of them its hard to understand "Deitsch".

Sorry for my English, I am currently improving it.

Lee Thierwechter
Monday, May 16th, 2011, 08:41 PM
Most of the ones with cell phones are actually Mennonites, though I'd imagine some have hidden pre-paids. Deitsch is falling out of use especially with the younger generations, but it is still used and the documentaries rarely aim as showing the "culture" of them and just aim for the "religious strictness" and demonize them or praise them for their down-to-earth attitudes.

So, wer kan in deitsch sproochen?

Hilderinc
Monday, May 16th, 2011, 10:19 PM
I watched a documentation about old order Amish and most of them were speaking English, also the youngest among themselves. Some teenager even use mobile phones...

Is that the normal case? Did anyone see the Amish in real and heard them speaking?

I'm pretty sure most of them speak English as well. Sadly, they're being pushed further into the 'modern world' as growing populations and increasing regulations make it harder for them to stay isolated.

This was at least the case in my town, some send their children to the nearest town's high school (meaning it is a non-Amish school.) In the past most people around here did not even need to complete highschool, but as I mentioned, it's required that you go to school until a certain age because of newer laws. Instead of these schools being populated by 'good farm boys' as they were 'back in the day,' they are full of Mexicans and 'brainwashed youth culture.' Even the Amish cannot beat peer-pressure and brainwashing to make them want to 'stay hip.'

Some Amish communities closer to urban areas are also treated like tourist attractions. :~(


But for the most part, their traditions remain unbroken. :)

SpearBrave
Monday, May 16th, 2011, 11:12 PM
I watched a documentation about old order Amish and most of them were speaking English, also the youngest among themselves. Some teenager even use mobile phones...

Is that the normal case? Did anyone see the Amish in real and heard them speaking?


I live just South of many different settlements as they call them. Some of my best friends are old order Amish. So yes I have contact with them at least weekly.

The ones you seen in the documentary could not have been real old order Amish as their children do not speak English until they go to school a few years. Also their parents would not let them have cell phones even during their "going out " period between the ages of 18-21.

I hear them speaking all the time, and I can understand them somewhat and my German is not that good. My Bavarian family members have a hard time understanding them though. Other Germans that have come here to work can carry on with them very well after just a short time.

They are truly a good people to learn from. Although it may take a little time to gain their trust. They sometimes don't like outsiders.:)

Magni
Monday, June 27th, 2011, 01:06 AM
Do they accept converts? Not that I want to convert, I am merely curious.

SpearBrave
Monday, June 27th, 2011, 03:26 AM
Do they accept converts? Not that I want to convert, I am merely curious.

Yes, some of the groups do. It happens more often than you might think.

I know of one case where a young Germanic girl decided to marry a young Amish boy. Not only did she convert but so did her sisters and then her parents. My woman and I have actually been asked to convert on more than one occasion, mostly they do it in a joking manner with a hint of seriousness.

Turin son of Hurin
Monday, June 27th, 2011, 12:01 PM
great news. Makes my day

Valkar
Monday, June 27th, 2011, 06:16 PM
Indeed!
As i went to wiki, to amish, and clicked on ethnicity, I saw they were primarily from German/swiss ancestry :P Its good to have population in a infected land like USA to repress the amount of Hispanics.

Turin son of Hurin
Monday, June 27th, 2011, 08:46 PM
I wish the Amish would have a bit of a reformation. It would be nice if they would educate themselves and their children beyond an eight grade level. I think it would only benefit them but I guess if what they are doing works for them then it can't be all that bad. Maybe.


They would be dying out like us if they did over-educate them. Education is an instinctual tool of older more established humans to hold back the younger stronger ones from gaining on there position in the herd.

We do our best work when we are young. If a persons youth is wasted in school and then university they don't do enough stuff and they will have less children. If we must have universtiy to teach people how to be engineers doc etc, .then let it start at age 13 i say. Let's stop holding our kids back .

Urglaawer
Monday, February 13th, 2012, 03:02 AM
So, wer kan in deitsch sproochen?

Ich kann Deitsch schwetze. Un der Urglaawe benutzt beed Deitsch un Englisch.

http://www.urglaawe.org
http://www.deitscherei.org
http://micronation-deitscherei.blogspot.com

Die Deitsch Schprooch iss noch am Lewe. :)

Kauz R. Waldher
Tuesday, February 14th, 2012, 09:26 AM
Hello, your name is Urglaawer? Is your real name Dan? I was only wondering because I recently discovered Urglaawe on the web and noticed that it has a small community. I read a article about it's biggest advocate. I think his name was Dan (sorry to not know the surname of the man).

Halldorr
Wednesday, February 15th, 2012, 12:21 AM
There was an interesting linguistics study done on the Pennsylvania Dutch some years ago. It was noticed that they were speaking English with a sound shift or accent. They studied them over many years and found that the elder females or Matriarchs of the family were the first to start the sound shift. A short time later the younger females picked up the sound shift. A few years later the younger men picked it up. The last ones to pick it up were the older men. So the Matriarchs of the family may be responsible for starting new dialects that finally morph into new languages.

Lee Thierwechter
Sunday, February 26th, 2012, 02:57 AM
Ich kann Deitsch schwetze. Un der Urglaawe benutzt beed Deitsch un Englisch.

http://www.urglaawe.org
http://www.deitscherei.org
http://micronation-deitscherei.blogspot.com

Die Deitsch Schprooch iss noch am Lewe. :)

I'm still in a rather neutral position to Urglaawe, as I am too all religion, it's not really my thing. But I think it encourages the one way that Deitsch can continue; building up groupings and enclaves of fancy Dutch speakers. I mean it would be more difficult in these economic times, but if our people could move into our areas and towns where we could form the majority again and teach the language to our children and ethnic Dutch, and then go from there. But that'd only really be possible if we had a centralized group, as there seems to be a few (very small) groups trying to preserve the culture in some form.

MaximusMagnus
Sunday, February 26th, 2012, 05:21 AM
If I recall the Penn germans are from the Rhineland Pflaz

A similar thing happened to the German settles in ST Louis. They were from the Rhineland mostly but called the "South Side Dutch" Becuase the mainly settled around the south side of St Louis (making it the beer capital of the world :) Becuase they called themselves Deutsch the inhabitints of the city thought they were saying Dutch

Siebenbürgerin
Friday, September 29th, 2017, 12:07 PM
THE AMISH SHOW US WHAT THE WEST COULD’VE BEEN

http://www.returnofkings.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/07/zamish.jpg

Three months ago, as I was walking by soccer fields in my local sports complex, I saw something that amazed me: two fields were being used by high-school aged Amish and Dutch Mennonite communities that were on a rare trip to the outside world.

Admirably, the young women played on one field while the young men played on the other. Here, there was no sign of an egalitarian, co-ed, genderless safe space. Gender differences were acknowledged and respected.

Even in the scorching summer heat, the girls wore modest squirts, that extended beyond their knees (in the same vein, the young men wore properly-fitting pants and shirts). The young girls also were healthy and fit. They had no tattoos, no piercings, no dyed, half shaven hair. There were no outward signs of brokenness. They were playing with a cordial innocence, the kind you’d expect from teenaged girls who haven’t been tarnished and soiled by consumerism, social media, and postmodern filth. They were beautiful, happy, and innocent.

On the adjacent field, the young men were playing an old-fashioned, no-nonsense game of footy. No whining and certainly no bitching. Every player was getting on with their task with gravitas and determination. The young men were playing with an incredible intensity. They were determined to score, and to win. All forms of masculine virtues were on display.

These scenes were bittersweet

As a first-generation immigrant to the West, I had never witnessed anything like this. Sure, I’ve watched many soccer games. I’ve seen genders segregated. I’ve encountered groups of young men and women, who had not been physically marked by the degenerate ‘edgy’ fads of SJW culture. I’ve even seen modestly dressed women playing sports. But this was the first time I’ve seen all of the above displayed by Canadians of European ancestry.

These scenes were bittersweet. Bitter, because it made me lament and yearn for a day and age when I too can take part in a society with such rich tradition and values. A society where men are not scorned or demeaned, but respected and esteemed. A society where women are not placed on an altar demanding to be worshiped. Here, there was an unerring feeling that these young women admired and even adored these young men.

In a few years short years, these young men will marry these virgin, pure, and chaste young women. Left to the pastoral, traditional setting, where no liberal welfare state exists to pacify the masculine instincts, these men will protect these young women, provide for them, and in return, the women will cherish them and love them for it. The lack of a welfare state also means that these women will seek masculine virtues in their men. In the absence of a ‘generous’ and ‘stable’ state, they will seek a generous and stable husband.

A violent diatribe against the modern West

It was sweet, because this was an enormous vindication. These scenes were a visually violent diatribe against the degenerate, failing, and weak West. Here was a social group that was purposely stuck in time.

After all, for many complex reasons, the Amish and Mennonite communities chose to be insular and rarely change their mode of traditional, pastoral living. Yet while they remain technologically “limited”, their social and group dynamics are superior to those of our modern Western Civilization.

Drawing this into stark perspective, was the third field, that was occupied by a co-ed (i.e. non-segregated) Canadian group of young men and women playing soccer. The women were fat, obnoxious, and foul mouthed. They sported aggressive, masculine tattoos. Meanwhile, the men were weak and effeminate house-pets, almost subjugated and controlled by these vile women. The women were barking orders, and the men would do as they were told, without batting an eye-lash. Such are the rotten fruits that feminism has produced.

The Amish however, rejected influences of the enlightenment, and by extension, all the false doctrines that came after it – Marxism, feminism, postmodernism. And because of that, they can bear the fruits of a superior existence. They are not afflicted by counter-intuitive ideologies that seek to disrupt the natural order of humanity, and create a deep-seated resentment, and fatal division. Instead, they are guided by Christian beliefs that not only bestow on them an abundance of virtue, but also social and group unity and cohesion. Men, women and children know their place in society.

The Amish, an image of the West’s former self

While we can always compare the modern West to pictures and movies of the its past self, why create hypotheticals and possible ‘straw-societies’? We can avoid speculation and introduce certainty into our analysis by drawing comparisons with communities like the Amish and Mennonites that are quite literally stuck in time.

It is true that pastoral Germanic and Dutch traditions of the Amish are not wholly representative of an ever-cosmopolitanizing impulse throughout Europe at the time. However, rural farming communities were still a dominant part of the landscape. These societies strongly resemble the post-reformation, pre-enlightenment state of Western Civilization. They are an incredible snapshot into this bygone era. By extension then, the Amish and Mennonites are an image of the West’s former self.

For these reasons, the Amish and Mennonite societies can be the control group when observing the Western experiment. The modern West, the test-tube that has been relentlessly inculcated with feminism, Marxism and postmodernism, is a decrepit and dying society, that just cannot wait to be conquered and subdued by virile foreign hordes. The control test-tube that has avoided these ideologies, the Amish and Mennonite society, has remained strong, self-sufficient and continues to yield an abundance of life-energy. Its people are self-assured and more alive. They are more human.

The Amish are culturally superior

How do we know the west has socially degenerated beyond recognition? Because it is far inferior to the cultural image of its former self. The Amish are far superior. They’re youth are alive and happy. Our youth are confused, sad and anxious. Their young men are brooding with confidence, testosterone, and masculinity. Ours are doubtful and weak. Their young women are feminine and willing to be led. Ours are aggressive and lack virtue. They’re posterity will inherit great riches, born about by tradition, patriarchy and God-fearing. Ours will inherit doubt and depravity.

Far after the degenerating West collapses into a matriarchal, egalitarian third-world basket-case, barbarian hordes will marvel at Amish and Mennonite communities as outposts of a once-great civilization.http://www.returnofkings.com/126591/the-amish-show-us-what-the-west-couldve-been

Siebenbürgerin
Tuesday, June 19th, 2018, 09:55 PM
Here another article about the Amish which explains away some of the stereotypes about their approach toward technology. I bold some of the essential parts:


The Amish: America’s most sophisticated users of technology

The Amish are better known for their rejection of modern technology than their large families (though the latter follows from the former, if you catch my drift). What’s less understood is why they choose to live without cars, televisions and many of the other things that we take for granted. It’s not out of a fundamentalist belief that things invented after a certain date are sinful. Nor is it because the Amish are simple-minded hicks unable to cope with new-fangled gadgetry. In fact, the opposite is true – the Amish are among the most sophisticated users of technology on the planet.

It’s a point that becomes apparent in Michael J Coren’s interview with Jameson Wetmore for Quartz:

“…the Amish [do not] view technology as inherently evil. No rules prohibit them from using new inventions. But they carefully consider how each one will change their culture before embracing it. And the best clue as to what will happen comes from watching their neighbors.

“‘The Amish use us as an experiment,’ says Jameson Wetmore, an engineer turned social researcher at the Arizona State University’s School for the Future of Innovation in Society. ‘They watch what happens when we adopt new technology, and then they decide whether that’s something they want to adopt themselves.’”

Within the Amish community, there are different sub-denominations of various degrees of strictness. Then there are ‘para-Amish’ groups, like the Mennonites, who come from the same Anabaptist tradition as the Amish, but are more accommodating of modernity. And, of course, when the Amish ride their horse-and-buggies into town, they share the same spaces as ordinary Americans.

Therefore, they can observe a wide range of lifestyles from that of the Swartzentrubers (the most conservative of the Amish) all the way through to the completely secular.

It’s a broad spectrum, but not one without clear dividing lines between Amish and non-Amish:

“It’s interesting that the Amish have different districts, and each district has different rules about what’s allowed and what’s not allowed. Yet it’s very clear there are two technologies that, as soon as the community accepts them, they are no longer Amish. Those technologies are the television and the automobile.”

Many of the Amish do use telephones, but they ban them from the home – confining them to phone shanties at the edge of the community. (Mobile phones, however, have confused matters somewhat.)

The Amish relationship with technology, therefore, is negotiable – but, crucially, they have developed (retained?) the ability to make the big decisions at a community level – i.e. collectively and locally:

“For the Amish, there are no rules prohibiting new technologies. So typically what will happen is one member of the community will say, ‘You know, I’m fed up with axes. I’m using the chainsaw.’

“So maybe he goes out and begins to use a chainsaw. You might get some stern looks from neighbors, but officially it’s not prohibited. Every six months, the [Amish district councils] sit down and discuss. People are beginning to use chainsaws in our communities: Is this what we want? And then they have a conversation about it.”

In the ‘English’ (i.e. non-Amish) world, we make decisions about technology at the level of the individual and, in some cases, the family. In practice, however, our autonomy is limited. New technology, and the social change that comes with it, is something that just happens to us.

Wetmore mentions the social impact of the motorcar. Streets used to be for people – a playground for children, a meeting place for adults. With the coming of the car, that changed – children were literally driven out, and adults have to watch their step. It was a profound alteration to the everyday life of our communities, but how many of them ever made a deliberate decision whether to accept it or not?

Wetmore quotes the motto of 1933 Chicago World Fair: “Science finds. Industry applies. Man conforms.”

In Amish society, however, man doesn’t conform.

The rest of us need to become technological non-conformists too. The implications of advances in artificial intelligence, robotics and genetic engineering are too big for us to continue as passive recipients of change.

In the end this is not about our machines; it’s about us.

The Amish make conscious decisions about which technologies enable them to remain Amish. Before long, we will need to decide which technologies allow us to remain human.
The source (https://unherd.com/2018/06/amish-americas-sophisticated-users-technology/)

Theunissen
Wednesday, June 20th, 2018, 01:56 AM
Here another article about the Amish which explains away some of the stereotypes about their approach toward technology. I bold some of the essential parts:
The source (https://unherd.com/2018/06/amish-americas-sophisticated-users-technology/)

I know Amish or Mennonites have different approaches to technology. The stereotype is simple clad family that refuses to use automobile, electricity, telecommunication devices, etc. What I however see is a clever approach to avoid devices one can not build or maintain with relatively simple hand tools. That way they'll always can sustain the capital they use without having to rely on outside help. In practice this means, you or a neighbor can fix your stuff without having to expend larger amounts of money to some outside source. He could always use his own labor to maintain the technology he uses in his daily life.

Rodskarl Dubhgall
Wednesday, June 20th, 2018, 02:09 AM
I happen to like watching For Richer Or Poorer and Witness films. I really enjoy Amish food, mostly pickled eggs and gherkins. I drive by a little store every day for work, but never have time to stop over and check it out. :( As for Amish romance novels... LOL

Hammish
Wednesday, June 20th, 2018, 04:22 AM
I happen to like watching For Richer Or Poorer and Witness films. I really enjoy Amish food, mostly pickled eggs and gherkins. I drive by a little store every day for work, but never have time to stop over and check it out. :( As for Amish romance novels... LOL

The weird thing about the term: Pennsylvania Dutch is that it is a catch all.

So all Amish are Pennsylvania Dutch, but not all Germans in Pennsylvania are Amish.

A lot of late 19th century and early 20th century German immigrants that happened to end up in Pennsylvania, became "Pennsylvania Dutch" to explain away why they talked so funny.

Speaking for me, my grandmother was always described as " Pennsylvania Dutch", to any Americans, but in reality, she was just a descendant from German immigrants, and ended up in Pennsylvania.

Lots of German hatred in middle 20th century America, it was on the TV all the time.

Rodskarl Dubhgall
Wednesday, June 20th, 2018, 05:01 AM
I know that Amish vs fancy Dutch basically are Radical vs Evangelical and Reformed. Amish are a plain folk.

Hammish
Wednesday, June 20th, 2018, 05:04 AM
I know that Amish vs fancy Dutch basically are Radical vs Evangelical and Reformed. Amish are a plain folk.

Not sure you understand, religion has little to do with it.

Rodskarl Dubhgall
Wednesday, June 20th, 2018, 12:49 PM
Not sure you understand, religion has little to do with it.
I'm not sure you understand, that Amish aren't the ones responsible for Pennsylvania Dutch artwork that is also in the Shenandoah and elsewhere. Amish, like the Quakers, are plain folk according to their religious beliefs. Reformed and Evangelical Germans are responsible for much of what is considered Pennsylvania Dutch culture, not the Amish.

I don't know what you object to in this. It's a corollary to what you wrote and something I have been told many times, like I hadn't heard it before.

Hammish
Wednesday, June 20th, 2018, 12:55 PM
I'm not sure you understand, that Amish aren't the ones responsible for Pennsylvania Dutch artwork that is also in the Shenandoah and elsewhere. Amish, like the Quakers, are plain folk according to their religious beliefs. Reformed and Evangelical Germans are responsible for much of what is considered Pennsylvania Dutch culture, not the Amish.

I don't know what you object to in this. It's a corollary to what you wrote and something I have been told many times, like I hadn't heard it before.

I have no objections to what you wrote, just threw in a clarification.

Rodskarl Dubhgall
Thursday, June 21st, 2018, 05:39 AM
I wish that all German Americans thought of themselves as cultural heirs of the Germanic colonies--English, Dutch and Swedish, rather than anomalously "Heartland American" but with bipolar obsession to Europe. This social disloyalty, by force of numbers, has contributed to cultural osmosis. Nobody came to America to be German, but Germans did come to an English America, as German subjects of the King of England. If Germans look to New Amsterdam as the basis and cultural hearth of all subsequent Continental West Germanic immigration and settlement, it would be natural. After all, Dutch and Deutsche have a common origin before the colonial period. It would also explain the size and influence of New York, with the Mid-Atlantic trail across America, through Chicago and into Los Angeles.

SpearBrave
Wednesday, July 4th, 2018, 12:07 AM
I wish that all German Americans thought of themselves as cultural heirs of the Germanic colonies--English, Dutch and Swedish, rather than anomalously "Heartland American" but with bipolar obsession to Europe. This social disloyalty, by force of numbers, has contributed to cultural osmosis. Nobody came to America to be German, but Germans did come to an English America, as German subjects of the King of England. If Germans look to New Amsterdam as the basis and cultural hearth of all subsequent Continental West Germanic immigration and settlement, it would be natural. After all, Dutch and Deutsche have a common origin before the colonial period. It would also explain the size and influence of New York, with the Mid-Atlantic trail across America, through Chicago and into Los Angeles.

Most people of German decent living in America came long after America freed itself from England, the first big wave being in the 1840s. There were even later waves and still Germans trickle into America today. Most came for land, hence the high German/American populations in the Midwest especially the rural areas.

On the Amish up until six months ago I lived around several Amish groups and the article that Siebenbürgerin posted is very accurate about the Amish views on technology with just a few slight variations I have noticed and discussed with them. Community is everything to them, when they work "outside" meaning off the farm they even set a radius of how many miles they can travel for work and what mode of transportation is allowed, more modern settlements will a allow a hired van while stricter groups will not.

Rodskarl Dubhgall
Wednesday, July 4th, 2018, 03:49 AM
Most people of German decent living in America came long after America freed itself from England, the first big wave being in the 1840s. There were even later waves and still Germans trickle into America today. Most came for land, hence the high German/American populations in the Midwest especially the rural areas.

On the Amish up until six months ago I lived around several Amish groups and the article that Siebenbürgerin posted is very accurate about the Amish views on technology with just a few slight variations I have noticed and discussed with them. Community is everything to them, when they work "outside" meaning off the farm they even set a radius of how many miles they can travel for work and what mode of transportation is allowed, more modern settlements will a allow a hired van while stricter groups will not.

Today, I went to Yoder's Country Market in Knott County and the food is average. I was just passing through for work, as I do everyday, making me get to my next stop a few minutes late. It wasn't worth it. I can get the same selection anywhere, Amish or not, except for the large selection of pickled goods. I was charged credit by the girls in costume, only to ask questions and realize that it was likely, a theme of ex-Amish. I was not impressed at all with the bait and switch to spend money.

I think I can identify with my Palatine ancestors who assimilated, rather than the other Germans who are too good for us. They self-alienate from the rest of us and it's a snobbery not unlike the hordes rampaging across the border. Prince Albert was a snob too. He was from a minor aristocratic house that only recently made it to the top, but had scorn for the ancient dukes of England. I'll stick with old Anglo-Saxons, NY, VA and PA Dutch--even Hessians who had a change of heart.

Herr Rentz
Saturday, July 7th, 2018, 12:10 PM
They remind me of characters from The Handmaid's Tale.

Astragoth
Monday, July 9th, 2018, 04:15 PM
Theres nothing wrong with the Amish. Peaceful and hardworking and they sell good quality goods.
I haven't been that way in years.