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Flag-Soil
Thursday, July 20th, 2006, 09:24 AM
How about a folder for people who are learining German?

Spjabork
Thursday, July 20th, 2006, 09:35 AM
How about a folder for people who are learining German?Are you prepared to spend some time on that?

Learning takes time. Teaching also takes time.

And as you Anglo-Saxons say: TIME IS MONEY! :D

(A joke, sorry...:D )

The problem with learning a language is: you must stick to it!

As for the special case of English native speakers learning German, the German pronunciation is somewhat difficult. I am reluctant to teach somebody whom I cannot listen to and who cannot listen to me...

Vinrith
Thursday, July 20th, 2006, 09:43 AM
There are many Coputer-programms for that kind of occupation.

I'm learning Norwegian with CD-Roms...

Witukind
Thursday, July 20th, 2006, 11:38 AM
That is a worthwhile idea.

Bulair
Thursday, July 20th, 2006, 01:37 PM
Are you prepared to spend some time on that?

Learning takes time. Teaching also takes time.

And as you Anglo-Saxons say: TIME IS MONEY! :D

(A joke, sorry...:D )

The problem with learning a language is: you must stick to it!

As for the special case of English native speakers learning German, the German pronunciation is somewhat difficult. I am reluctant to teach somebody whom I cannot listen to and who cannot listen to me...

I think the pronunciation is fairly easy, but the grammar and the whole lot of verbs that have a variety of meanings depending only on their prefix is what I find difficult.

Oswiu
Thursday, July 20th, 2006, 01:38 PM
Can you imagine how it would work, though?

I don't dare interrupt in the truly German forums, as I make cringingly embarrassing mistakes, so maybe if there was a place where it was okay to talk really Schrecklich German it might be a good idea.

Theudiskaz
Thursday, July 20th, 2006, 01:47 PM
Vielleicht koennen wir einen Streng anfangen wobei die Deutschsprachigen unsere Grammatik pruefen sollen. Wir Englischsprachige koennen miteinander oder mit den Duetschen reden und danach, bekommen wir Pruefungen.

Also welche Fehler habe ich schon gemacht?:D

Oswiu
Thursday, July 20th, 2006, 01:49 PM
I think the pronunciation is fairly easy,
I agree. Most of us have seen the caricature Germans in war films, and so if you have any talent for mimicry that's a start, at least!

My first real German I met was a Schwabischer. We used to tell him off for not having a 'real' German accent. :P He sounded nothing like the souped-up Prussians in the films!

but the grammar and the whole lot of verbs that have a variety of meanings depending only on their prefix is what I find difficult.
Yes, it's the grammar. Der die das... :( And the remnants of a case system. I find it easier to learn a language with a full and intact case system, than one in which it's decayed like in German.

The verbs aren't so bad - they reflect the phrasal verbs of English quite well. Just takes a bit of mental agility.

I wish I'd been taught it in a more etymological way, emphasising the predictability of parallels with my native tongue. German is after all, more familiar than it looks. :D

Spjabork
Thursday, July 20th, 2006, 03:41 PM
I think the pronunciation is fairly easy,
I was refering to native English speakers, i.e. people, whose mothertongue is a variety of English. For them, there are several difficulties in achieving a "good" German pronunciation. Slavic people have less or no difficulties in that respect.

but the grammar and the whole lot of verbs that have a variety of meanings depending only on their prefix is what I find difficult.This, on the other hand, is easy to grasp for the native English speakers, for either the same prefixes exist in English too, or the same meaning is expressed by a phrasal verb (=verb+preposition). ;)

Spjabork
Thursday, July 20th, 2006, 03:55 PM
Yes, it's the grammar. Der die das... :(There is a rule which applies to 90% of all actual cases: if the noun ends in a nasal (-m;-n;-ng), the gender is male, if it ends in a vowel, the gender is female, and if it ends in none of them, it is neuter. :)

And the remnants of a case system. I find it easier to learn a language with a full and intact case system, than one in which it's decayed like in German.You might even say that in modern spoken, everyday-German the case system has almost disappeared. And because of that, the younger Germans already don't obey to it in writing. But if you read better and not so old German texts, then a good understanding of the case system is indispensable. :(

The verbs aren't so bad - they reflect the phrasal verbs of English quite well. Just takes a bit of mental agility.That's what I say. :)

I wish I'd been taught it in a more etymological way, emphasising the predictability of parallels with my native tongue. Well, I like the 'etymological approach' too. But most people don't. They say, they want to learn "modern" or "real life" German which can be heard in Germany and can be understood. And more often than not the etymology really is misleading at worst or "not useful" at best.

Theudanaz
Thursday, July 20th, 2006, 07:25 PM
This would except the common -heit/keit and -ung ending, which are always feminine.:D



There is a rule which applies to 90% of all actual cases: if the noun ends in a nasal (-m;-n;-ng), the gender is male, if it ends in a vowel, the gender is female, and if it ends in none of them, it is neuter. :)
You might even say that in modern spoken, everyday-German the case system has almost disappeared. And because of that, the younger Germans already don't obey to it in writing. But if you read better and not so old German texts, then a good understanding of the case system is indispensable. :(
That's what I say. :)
Well, I like the 'etymological approach' too. But most people don't. They say, they want to learn "modern" or "real life" German which can be heard in Germany and can be understood. And more often than not the etymology really is misleading at worst or "not useful" at best.

Graumahd
Thursday, July 20th, 2006, 10:56 PM
It´s nice to see that there is quite a bunch of people interested in our language :thumbup

Thusnelda
Thursday, July 20th, 2006, 11:53 PM
Vielleicht koennen wir einen Streng anfangen wobei die Deutschsprachigen unsere Grammatik pruefen sollen. Wir Englischsprachige koennen miteinander oder mit den Duetschen reden und danach, bekommen wir Pruefungen.

Correction: Vielleicht können wir einen Strang beginnen/starten, in dem die Deutschsprachigen unsere Grammatik überprüfen können/sollen? Wir Englischsprachige könnten dann miteinander (oder mit den Deutschen) reden, und danach bekommen wir Prüfungen (vorgelegt).

But is was very good and easy to understand! Youre already good in German! :thumbup


To the topic: I would happily help non-native German-speakers to correct their stuff. ;)

Spjabork
Friday, July 21st, 2006, 04:38 AM
This would except the common -heit/keit and -ung ending, which are always feminine.:D<-ung> ends in a nasal.;) :) The <-e> which is to be expected was lost due to "lanuage change".

Dr. Solar Wolff
Friday, July 21st, 2006, 06:29 AM
Vielleicht koennen wir einen Streng anfangen wobei die Deutschsprachigen unsere Grammatik pruefen sollen. Wir Englischsprachige koennen miteinander oder mit den Duetschen reden und danach, bekommen wir Pruefungen.

Also welche Fehler habe ich schon gemacht?:D

How about a thread in which we English speakers post slang-words which are not or not yet in our German dictionaries? For instance, a few years ago I came across the word "Ossi" which was not in my vintage dictionary. Now I know an Ossi is a person from the former East Germany but it took awhile for me to figure this out alone.

I agree that a person cannot learn a language on an internet forum and so, if we do a thread approaching this topic at all, we need to narrow the scope so that it will be of some use. Maybe we could offer the German speakers a slang-word exchange thread? In fact, I don't even understand most English-English slang words or Australian-English slang words so the whole concept of a slang exchange appeals to me.

Nicola_Canadian
Friday, July 21st, 2006, 06:38 AM
Well, seems like it is natural to have the "Learn German" topic on the Germanic forum... It would be a very nice asset... I would only welcome any sort of help in improving my poor German skills...

Thusnelda
Friday, July 21st, 2006, 12:00 PM
How about a thread in which we English speakers post slang-words which are not or not yet in our German dictionaries?
Very good idea!

Flag-Soil
Friday, July 21st, 2006, 12:41 PM
I'm downloading some audiobooks that go through it but it would be usefull to have a place on Skadi where people can ask about things.

Spjabork
Friday, July 21st, 2006, 12:53 PM
it would be usefull to have a place on Skadi where people can ask about things.Why not ask here in this thread? :)

Theudiskaz
Friday, July 21st, 2006, 01:03 PM
You might even say that in modern spoken, everyday-German the case system has almost disappeared. And because of that, the younger Germans already don't obey to it in writing. But if you read better and not so old German texts, then a good understanding of the case system is indispensable. Koennen Sie, bitte, uns ein Beispiel vorstellen?

De gids
Friday, July 21st, 2006, 01:23 PM
I am not a native-english-speaker, but I know this problem.
Some Germans (mostly bavarians) say "wegen dir" instead of "deinetwegen". It seems to be right, but it isn't.

After the Preposition "wegen" must follow an "Genitiv" (in this case "dein")
From "wegen dein" becomes "deinetwegen" .

I see it's not that easy.

Spjabork
Friday, July 21st, 2006, 01:31 PM
Koennen Sie, bitte, uns ein Beispiel vorstellen?
For example, the word 'banana'. The German plural of Banane is Bananen. But practically nobody pronounces the ending <-en> in an audible way.
What you hear is: "Zwei Banan'n" ('two bananas'). Sometimes, the last <-n> is "lenghened", is a "long consonant". But sometimes it is just normal [-n].

In Standard German, there are four noun cases. But the second (Genitive) case is practically out of use, except for some relic phrases. German public language "guardians" are making much fun of this: "Der Dativ ist dem Genitiv sein Tod." This sentence itself is a joke. The meaning is: "Dative kills Genitive." But the grammar is wrong, it should read: "Der Dativ ist des Genitives Tod." :D

Most people are not sure, what the Nominative form of some nouns should be: 'der Wille' (the will) or 'der Willen'; 'der Glaube' (the faith) or 'der Glauben'

Or, you should hear (and say):
'Ich sehe einen Mann.' ('I see a man.'), but you hear: 'Ich seh_ ein_ Mann.'

The decay of the inflectional system is even more important when it comes to the verbs.

you say in English: I come ---- we come

In written German it ought to be: ich komme ---- wir kommen

but in spoken German it is: ich komm_ ---- wir komm_

Graumahd
Friday, July 21st, 2006, 02:36 PM
I am not a native-english-speaker, but I know this problem.
Some Germans (mostly bavarians) say "wegen dir" instead of "deinetwegen". It seems to be right, but it isn't.

After the Preposition "wegen" must follow an "Genitiv" (in this case "dein")
From "wegen dein" becomes "deinetwegen" .

I see it's not that easy.


Damn, really didn´t know that this is wrong :D
We use it everyday!

Enibas
Friday, July 21st, 2006, 03:28 PM
Now again, it´s the old problem: the High German language and the German dialect. The laws of the dialect is different than the laws of the High German language.
Here, a small funny story from my life: I came from Berlin, my husband from Mannheim (Kurpfalz). My future parents-in-law wanted to show me the landscape of the Kurpfalz. They said that we make a trip into the Negro valley.
I think "???“
And now the dissolution: Neckar = a river in Germany.
The people in Mannheim say "Neggar“ to this river.
The Germans say for negro "Neger “ .
My future parents-in-law ask: Do you like the Neggartal (for me Negrovalley).
I answered: Yes, I love it, but I don´t see any black person.“

Nordgau
Friday, July 21st, 2006, 04:44 PM
In Standard German, there are four noun cases. But the second (Genitive) case is practically out of use, except for some relic phrases. German public language "guardians" are making much fun of this: "Der Dativ ist dem Genitiv sein Tod." This sentence itself is a joke. The meaning is: "Dative kills Genitive." But the grammar is wrong, it should read: "Der Dativ ist des Genitives Tod." :D

[...]

Or, you should hear (and say):
'Ich sehe einen Mann.' ('I see a man.'), but you hear: 'Ich seh_ ein_ Mann.'

The decay of the inflectional system is even more important when it comes to the verbs.

you say in English: I come ---- we come

In written German it ought to be: ich komme ---- wir kommen

but in spoken German it is: ich komm_ ---- wir komm_

I agree with the death bell for the genetive in colloquial usage, but regarding the other examples it seems to alarmistic to me. In the example "Ich sehe einen Mann" any colloquial dropping of the ending seems to me rather due to the "normal" slurring of the unstressed e sound so that it's rather "ein_n Mann"; and for me "wir komm_" sounds like quite much bad "slang", the "normal" colloquial form being rather "wir komm_n"; but even for slurring it to "wir komm_" one must ascribe it to the similar nasal sound, and nobody would say "wir find_" or "wir such_" ...

Speaking of language criticism: A phenomenon that leads me to sounding the alarm bells is that often subjunctive II is used where it should be clearly subjunctive I, and the other way around; and that there's the tendency of replacing the proper forms of subjunctive II, being irregular or identical with the preterite, completely through the forms with würde. My strong sympathy belongs to all the irregular forms which are often called "antiquated" or "affected": Wie gern schlüge ich einem Michel Friedman die Fresse ein, bräche ihm sämtliche Knochen und würfe ihn schließlich einen Anhang hinunter. It's so poetic. :D

Spjabork
Friday, July 21st, 2006, 05:05 PM
I agree with the death bell for the genetive in colloquial usage, but regarding the other examples it seems to alarmistic to me. In the example "Ich sehe einen Mann" any colloquial dropping of the ending seems to me rather due to the "normal" slurring of the unstressed e sound so that it's rather "ein_n Mann"; and for me "wir komm_" sounds like quite much bad "slang", the "normal" colloquial form being rather "wir komm_n";
Well, just a few minutes ago posted right here in this forum:

...aber als Arbeiter bekam mein Vater kein Kredit...:) Should be: 'keinen Kredit', isn't it? ;)

but even for slurring it to "wir komm_" one must ascribe it to the similar nasal sound, and nobody would say "wir find_" or "wir such_" ...The nasal ending of each verb is assimilated to the closing consonant of the stem. If this consonant is a guttural (as -ch- in 'suchen'), the nasal becomes a guttural nasal: [zu:xn']. In the case of 'finden', people often pronounce 'fin'n', i.e. a "lengthened" [n].

Nordgau
Friday, July 21st, 2006, 05:43 PM
Well, just a few minutes ago posted right here in this forum:
:) Should be: 'keinen Kredit', isn't it? ;)


One can read much worse things in the German forum than that. No need to anonymize that one. :D But as you say yourself, in this case it is due to the assimilation of the ending n to the first n, or, respectively, it is practically the lengthening of the first n.--If people indeed write like that ("ich seh kein Mann") it's quite careless and slutty even if one charges colloquial style to the writer's account, and everyone who is just a bit educated is annoyed by such. Or should be. ;)

While it is possible to say--or even write--"kein" for "keinen" (or "mein"/"dein"/"sein" for "meinen"/"deinen"/"seinen" where there's also an n before the ending), nobody, however, could kick out the accusative that easily from "... bekam mein Vater den Kredit" or "... bekam mein Vater diesen Kredit"--spoken or written--, so I wouldn't say that aside from the genetive the case system really has almost disappeared in modern spoken German.

Spjabork
Friday, July 21st, 2006, 05:55 PM
everyone who is just a bit educated is annoyed by such. Or should be. ;) I fully agree with you. But I wonder if we can stop the "Untergang des Abendlandes". :D

The deteriorated teaching of the German language at "our" schools is to a great extend responsible for the decay of written German.

Nordgau
Friday, July 21st, 2006, 06:08 PM
I fully agree with you. But I wonder if we can stop the "Untergang des Abendlandes". :D

I'm living in a big town "enriched" plentifully with Turks & Co. A quite worrying phenomenon which one can register again and again on the street and in busses or so is that German underlayer "kids" sometimes tend to adapt the Kanakendeutsch accent and phrases of their immigrant "friends". :| (Here at least a flip-flap repatriation action could bring some improvement here, I could imagine. :whistling)


The deteriorated teaching of the German language at "our" schools is to a great extend responsible for the decay of written German.

Just think of that kisser below who seriously suggested to make English the working language in Germany and to relegate German to the status of some leisure-time house tongue.

http://www.guenther-oettinger.de/fileadmin/templates/oettinger/titel_guenther-h-oettinger2.jpg

Zyklop
Friday, July 21st, 2006, 06:15 PM
On a forum like this we shouldn´t use derogative slang words like "Ossi" which are used to incite Germans against each other.

Spjabork
Friday, July 21st, 2006, 07:35 PM
On a forum like this we shouldn´t use derogative slang words like "Ossi" which are used to incite Germans against each other.I think Dr Solar Wolff just wanted to know what 'Ossi' means. To know passively the meaning of a word has nothing to do with actively using it. As a matter of fact, many "odd" words are used in German publications and by German native speakers, whether we like them or not. Sometimes it is necessary to know what somebody (be it even your enemy) is talking about.

E.g. I'd like to know how 'ZOG' spells out? :) Or, what means 'lol'? :)

Posted here in this forum:

Und bedient sich jemand nicht einem normalem Umgangston...Should be: "Und bedient sich jemand nicht eines normalen Umgangstons...

Dr. Solar Wolff
Saturday, July 22nd, 2006, 06:38 AM
On a forum like this we shouldn´t use derogative slang words like "Ossi" which are used to incite Germans against each other.

I was not using it as a derogative term, I was using it as an example. When I first encountered the word I didn't know what it meant and didn't know it was derogatory or divisive. But, sorry, anyway.

Dr. Solar Wolff
Saturday, July 22nd, 2006, 06:42 AM
I think Dr Solar Wolff just wanted to know what 'Ossi' means. To know passively the meaning of a word has nothing to do with actively using it. As a matter of fact, many "odd" words are used in German publications and by German native speakers, whether we like them or not. Sometimes it is necessary to know what somebody (be it even your enemy) is talking about.

E.g. I'd like to know how 'ZOG' spells out? :) Or, what means 'lol'? :)

Posted here in this forum:
Should be: "Und bedient sich jemand nicht eines normalen Umgangstons...

ZOG is Zionist Occupied Government. This is a term used for the US government. Zionists bribe our elected officials, especially in the House of Congress and the Senate by using lobby groups, sometimes called Political Action Groups (PAC Groups) and campaign contributions. Patrick Buchanan once called the American Congress (House and the Senate) "Israeli Occupied Territory". This may have led to the term ZOG.