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Jethro Tull
Tuesday, November 25th, 2003, 07:04 AM
I vote 'no'.

Jack
Tuesday, November 25th, 2003, 07:41 AM
Define 'civilization'. Why don't you think China is a civilization?

Awar
Tuesday, November 25th, 2003, 11:06 AM
Yes, China is a civilization, has been that longer than Europe ( save for the Balkans ).

Louky
Tuesday, November 25th, 2003, 08:54 PM
I read years ago that the criteria for civilization is (1) architecture (2) written language, and (3) laws. China meets those criteria.

Stríbog
Wednesday, November 26th, 2003, 12:54 AM
Anyone who votes no is himself uncivilized. China has accomplished more than most European countries.

Nordhammer
Wednesday, November 26th, 2003, 02:54 AM
Anyone who votes no is himself uncivilized. China has accomplished more than most European countries.

Such is the reason so many Chinese are killing themselves to get into these less civilized European countries.

Why don't you move to China and tell us how life is? :)

Stríbog
Wednesday, November 26th, 2003, 03:02 AM
Such is the reason so many Chinese are killing themselves to get into these less civilized European countries.

Why don't you move to China and tell us how life is? :)

They come to America and Europe because they know they can make money with their academic training and skills, not because they consider it to be a higher civilization than their own. Europeans came to the unknown American and African continents to make their fortunes; I doubt they believed these places to have higher civilizations than Europe.

Nordhammer
Wednesday, November 26th, 2003, 03:47 AM
They come to America and Europe because they know they can make money with their academic training and skills, not because they consider it to be a higher civilization than their own. Europeans came to the unknown American and African continents to make their fortunes; I doubt they believed these places to have higher civilizations than Europe.

It's true, they come to make more money. But why? Their country is both oppressive and overpopulated. They can make 10x or more in the same amount of time here what they would make there.

They aren't filling up Africa. I don't have statistics on how many are going to South America and Southern European, but without a doubt the majority migrate to America, Canada, Northern Europe, and Australia. A lot of that has to do with a better civilization, a higher standard of living, and ability to make more money is part of that.

cosmocreator
Wednesday, November 26th, 2003, 04:03 AM
Some Chinese leave Canada (but keep dual citizenships) to go back to Hong Kong. They can make more money there.

Taras Bulba
Wednesday, November 26th, 2003, 04:38 AM
I voted yes. One only has to think of their philosophers like Confucious, Lao Tzu, Mencius, and others to see their accomplishment in terms of intellectual thinking.

However, I hate these arguments made today by scholars about the origins of philosophy as being in the East and somehow made their way west through trade routes. Like I said in another thread about how everything of value came from Asia. Bullsh*t! I say Eastern philosophy originated in Asia and Western philosophy originated in Europe.

Stríbog
Wednesday, November 26th, 2003, 04:52 AM
I voted yes. One only has to think of their philosophers like Confucious, Lao Tzu, Mencius, and others to see their accomplishment in terms of intellectual thinking.

However, I hate these arguments made today by scholars about the origins of philosophy as being in the East and somehow made their way west through trade routes. Like I said in another thread about how everything of value came from Asia. Bullsh*t! I say Eastern philosophy originated in Asia and Western philosophy originated in Europe.

I've never said that everything of value originated in Asia. I simply believe in giving credit where credit is due.

Nordhammer
Wednesday, November 26th, 2003, 05:12 AM
I voted yes. One only has to think of their philosophers like Confucious, Lao Tzu, Mencius, and others to see their accomplishment in terms of intellectual thinking.

Confucious say, "Man who stand on toilet, high on pot." :japanese

Taras Bulba
Wednesday, November 26th, 2003, 05:18 AM
I've never said that everything of value originated in Asia. I simply believe in giving credit where credit is due.

I wasn't talking about you Stribog, I was talking about Academics these days who say everything of value in the West came from Asia. They now want to say that Napoleon was such a great commander because he read an early French translation of Sun Tzu's "Art of War", totally disregarding the fact that Europe already had a strong heritage of military strategists. Plus theres no proof that Napoleon ever read that book, but he did read Machiavelli's "Art of War".

blut-ehre
Wednesday, November 26th, 2003, 05:48 AM
yeah ... china is a civilization :-O one that needs to be broken apart.

Taras Bulba
Wednesday, November 26th, 2003, 05:57 AM
yeah ... china is a civilization :-O one that needs to be broken apart.

Well that may happen sometime in the next few decades. China already has a problem with its eastern Muslim provinces trying to break away. Then theres the seperatist movement in Tibet(whoever pathetic its hippie supporters are among affluent white liberals).

Read "the Coming Collaspe of China" by Gordon G. Chang. He exposes China not as the superpower everybody whines about but in fact a country thats in long-term decline.

Jack
Wednesday, November 26th, 2003, 07:37 AM
It's taking its time in falling apart... it's only been around for 3000 years.

blut-ehre
Wednesday, November 26th, 2003, 07:58 AM
hehe been around 3000 years too long...

Chinaman
Wednesday, November 26th, 2003, 12:56 PM
hehe been around 3000 years too long...

I don't understand where the malice comes from. I don't wish the collapse of European countries, why not leave China alone? For someone who claims to be National Socialist, you seem to have completely irrational urges to see to the demise of non-white civilizations. This is completely contrary to the ideals set forth by the late German Führer, who acknowledged China's place in civilization and funded KMT Nationalist efforts. Or might you not even be a true National Socialist, perhaps one of the latest brands of Hollywood Nazi or insecure Nazi wanna-be?

In any case, you might care to notice that "communist" China's policies are actually closer to National Socialism than really any white European nation is right now, so I don't see what your complaint is. Europe is additionally responsible for several monstrosities created through its irresponsible colonial policies. China has not engaged in such behavior. Regardless, Europe has a civilization that is both advanced and notable, and as such deserves to be given credit for it; to do otherwise would be childish and foolish.

My regards,
Chang

Mac Seafraidh
Wednesday, November 26th, 2003, 02:57 PM
I voted no because look at China now with their over population and disorganized government. They are falling apart day by day.

Nordgau
Wednesday, November 26th, 2003, 03:25 PM
I voted no because look at China now with their over population and disorganized government. They are falling apart day by day.

Hmm... similar phenomenoms of decline happen in Europe, don't they?

I have no problem with admitting that China is a civilization, an old high civilization that shows in all spheres own creations. That it is from spirit and character different from the Occident and that dynamic Europe-North America was the civilization which created from its spirit and genius the modern technological civilization that China pants after and copies, doesn't alter this.

Tuor
Thursday, November 27th, 2003, 07:45 PM
I voted yes, it fits the basic guidlines of civilization

Jethro Tull
Thursday, November 27th, 2003, 10:14 PM
I voted yes. One only has to think of their philosophers like Confucious, Lao Tzu, Mencius, and others to see their accomplishment in terms of intellectual thinking.

However, I hate these arguments made today by scholars about the origins of philosophy as being in the East and somehow made their way west through trade routes. Like I said in another thread about how everything of value came from Asia. Bullsh*t! I say Eastern philosophy originated in Asia and Western philosophy originated in Europe.

Philosophy is pure greek. Is one of the purest ocidental inventions. The oriental intellectual thinking is mystic/esoteric/religious. Confucius, Lau-Tsé, etc... were not philosophers.... You can read Bertrand Russel to understand this...

Nordhammer
Friday, November 28th, 2003, 04:02 AM
China has not engaged in such behavior. Regardless, Europe has a civilization that is both advanced and notable, and as such deserves to be given credit for it; to do otherwise would be childish and foolish.

My regards,
Chang

Let me guess, you're a "Chinaman" not living in China, that wonderful civilization, but living in Europe/America/Canada?

Jethro Tull
Friday, November 28th, 2003, 04:16 AM
Seeing the topic now, i think China is a civilization, but the lass advanced civilization that existed(now, every countries are copying western culture, are already did it). Native American Civilizations had a big knowledge about mathematic... But China is the "basic of the basic". They thinking had no complex conclusions(or not intuitive. there was no advanced conclusions), few advanced methods in their works, their art is very poor(a basic art, with few forms of cultural reflexing, and not much knowledge) and all their discovers were accidental. like the powder...

Chinaman
Friday, November 28th, 2003, 04:25 AM
Let me guess, you're a "Chinaman" not living in China, that wonderful civilization, but living in Europe/America/Canada?

Nordhammer,
Correct, I am Chinese, living in the United States. My parents immigrated here because of superior job prospects and met here. China has many flaws, but even in its current state, I would not say it has ceased to be a civilization. Historically, China has many accomplishments that I am very proud of, and these accomplishments in art, philosophy, and science place China forever in the list of civilizations.
I freely admit that the West currently enjoys a higher standard of living, and technical superiority, and give them due credit for their accomplishments. Changes to the status quo are bound to happen though; foolish to assume otherwise. At one point, China enjoyed technical superiority and higher standard of living while European serfs were oppressed by corrupt feudal lords. I am not necessarily saying China will be the next superpower and dominate over the world again, but it is certainly a possibility.

My regards,
Chang

Jethro Tull
Friday, November 28th, 2003, 05:00 AM
Nordhammer,
Correct, I am Chinese, living in the United States. My parents immigrated here because of superior job prospects and met here. China has many flaws, but even in its current state, I would not say it has ceased to be a civilization. Historically, China has many accomplishments that I am very proud of, and these accomplishments in art, philosophy, and science place China forever in the list of civilizations.
I freely admit that the West currently enjoys a higher standard of living, and technical superiority, and give them due credit for their accomplishments. Changes to the status quo are bound to happen though; foolish to assume otherwise. At one point, China enjoyed technical superiority and higher standard of living while European serfs were oppressed by corrupt feudal lords. I am not necessarily saying China will be the next superpower and dominate over the world again, but it is certainly a possibility.

My regards,
Chang

In the middle-ages, the west culture was only "sleeping". But it used to be superior in thecnical, and way of living already before(even comparing with China in the middle-ages, Roman empire was superior). There was no chinese intelectual contribution to the west, and if you compare all the east intelectual material with only the greek philosopher you will see the large difference.

Compare so the roman enginering, the greek and the roman political systems, scientific knowledge, mathematical knowledge... everything...
We will see(if you search honesty) the large, large difference... Compare Europe before the middle-ages with China IN european middle-ages...
You can not say that China had a better civilization. The western resources were not lost, they EXISTED in middle-ages, but they were forbidden, that's the reasen because i say Europe was sleeping.

Chinaman
Friday, November 28th, 2003, 05:08 AM
Hello JT,

Here is my response to your posts.


Philosophy is pure greek. Is one of the purest ocidental inventions. The oriental intellectual thinking is mystic/esoteric/religious. Confucius, Lau-Tsé, etc... were not philosophers.... You can read Bertrand Russel to understand this...

I suppose it depends on how you define philosophy. Traditionally, even in the West, Confucius, Mencius, Han Fei Zi, and Lao Tze among others are considered philosophers, though certainly in the Western line of philosophical thought, these philosophers do not hold precedence as do Aristotle, Thales, Pythagoras, etc..

For the most part, I would say a general definition of philosophy is the pursuit of wisdom through intellectual means, usually in areas concerning ethics, logic, and the metaphysical. In the case of Lao Tzu, his contemplation of existence and reality, I suppose you could call "mystic," but in some sense certainly fullfils this role of intellectualizing metaphysics. He also discusses certain ethical topics in the Tao Te Jing. In my mind, there is no question that Lao Tzu is a philosopher.

With Confucius, Han Fei Zi, etc., I would say it is entirely unfounded to say that they are mystic/esoteric/religious, especially since they generally don't advocate religious beliefs anymore than said Greek philosophers. A case could be made that Confucius was less religious actually, other than a few references perhaps to the Mandate of Heaven, and the importance of filial piety leading to ancestor veneration. I would actually say that Confucius was an early political philosopher, given the setting he was in: a fragmenting Zhou dynasty. His goal was to restore social order and eventually peace throughout China. Han Fei Zi contemplated human nature, specifically coming to the conclusion that it was wicked and depraved, requiring systematic law and order, and rewards for the obedient to maintain social order. Such was the way the Chin (Qin) dynasty functioned for its relatively short period of Chinese unification.


Seeing the topic now, i think China is a civilization, but the lass advanced civilization that existed(now, every countries are copying western culture, are already did it). Native American Civilizations had a big knowledge about mathematic... But China is the "basic of the basic". They thinking had no complex conclusions(or not intuitive. there was no advanced conclusions), few advanced methods in their works, their art is very poor(a basic art, with few forms of cultural reflexing, and not much knowledge) and all their discovers were accidental. like the powder...

I do not mean to be rude, but I would have to say you have not studied much Chinese history. The "basic of the basic" is completely unfounded. If I am understanding your broken English correctly (not trying to be insulting), you are saying that Native Americans had more knowledge of mathematics than Chinese. Chinese actually had an understanding limit laws found in calculus, advanced geometry, Pythagorean theorem and proofs, algorithms, series, quadratics, etc.. Chinese philosophy reveals many intricacies in thought that are both unique and advanced. Your criticism of our art that it is "poor" is rather spurious, especially in a topic so subjective. Leibniz, who brought advances in calculus along with Newton, was a large admirer of China.

My regards,
Chang

Chinaman
Friday, November 28th, 2003, 05:46 AM
In the middle-ages, the west culture was only "sleeping". But it used to be superior in thecnical, and way of living already before(even comparing with China in the middle-ages, Roman empire was superior). There was no chinese intelectual contribution to the west, and if you compare all the east intelectual material with only the greek philosopher you will see the large difference.

Compare so the roman enginering, the greek and the roman political systems, scientific knowledge, mathematical knowledge... everything...
We will see(if you search honesty) the large, large difference... Compare Europe before the middle-ages with China IN european middle-ages...
You can not say that China had a better civilization. The western resources were not lost, they EXISTED in middle-ages, but they were forbidden, that's the reasen because i say Europe was sleeping.

Hi JT,
In the middle ages, I would have to say it was beyond sleeping. Sleeping is a rather pathetic excuse for the state of being in Europe during the middle ages. You might consider English poetry and novel writing at the time in form of Geoffrey Chaucer, with his wonderful Miller's tale, a tale of debauchery, kissing bare asses, farting, and hitting people in the ass with hot iron. The middle ages I would generally consider lacking in social order, with feudal lords fighting amongst each other.


This Nicholas anon leet fle a fart,
As greet as it had been a thonder-dent,
That with the strook he was almoost yblent;
And he was redy with his iren hoot,
And Nicholas amydde the ers he smoot

Also the later Greco-Roman era was rather stagnant scientifically and mathematically. I do not wish to denigrate European civilization for which I have much respect, however it is a fact that at a certain point, Rome's scientific progress for the most part ceased and was actually continued in the Islamic world. I believe it is a common fact, that China was technically superior up until it's stagnation due to conflicts with Mongols, Manchus, and Japanese barbarians.
Honestly, if you would look at Chinese civilization for what it is, you will clearly see that at some points in time, it did enjoy a higher standard of living and technical superiority. I'm not going to be a ridiculous Sino supremacist and claim that Chinese civilization was always superior, but there certainly was a long period of time where that was the case. I myself am a traditional Roman Catholic, so of course I have a large amount of respect for the later Christian Roman empire, though I must admit a bit of unwarranted suppression of science did occur under such rule.

Regards,
Chang

Jethro Tull
Friday, November 28th, 2003, 05:52 AM
Hello JT,

Here is my response to your posts.



I suppose it depends on how you define philosophy. Traditionally, even in the West, Confucius, Mencius, Han Fei Zi, and Lao Tze among others are considered philosophers, though certainly in the Western line of philosophical thought, these philosophers do not hold precedence as do Aristotle, Thales, Pythagoras, etc..


For the most part, I would say a general definition of philosophy is the pursuit of wisdom through intellectual means, usually in areas concerning ethics, logic, and the metaphysical. In the case of Lao Tzu, his contemplation of existence and reality, I suppose you could call "mystic," but in some sense certainly fullfils this role of intellectualizing metaphysics. He also discusses certain ethical topics in the Tao Te Jing. In my mind, there is no question that Lao Tzu is a philosopher.
[/quote]

Lao-Tzu is a anti-philosopher!! His religion is against all the bases of the philosophy: always ask about everything. Knowledge only for knowledge.
He simply made a ethical system based in politeist, mystic/esoteric beliefs. Based on pure faith. Not every ethical system is philosophcal... Only if it's based in pure knowledge... Not in faith... For example, hamurabi's code was not philosophical.
Lao-Tzu is a philosopher only for the "new-age" people who wants to see everything that exist in the west also in the east... They see this supposed advance as a hope, since after second war, many people don't believe in the west. But they don't have arguments to prove that lao-tzu is a philosopher and for example Jesus or Zoroastro are not... While the word "philosopher" is a word to define the greek way of thinking comparing with these thinkers, for example!
This is only a crisis in the west and a question of time for our critical sense(typical in the european culture) be extended to the east and we see that we(and only we) had the knowledge to make our life better and advanced.
The language is a problem for me to talk about this. if we could talk in portuguese, i would prove to you as i did it many times to people who used to believe that confucius, sidarta or lao-tzu, were philosopher(most of them japaneses descendents).
I don't know, for example, the word i should use for 'sofisma'. You use Sophism??? Is what you did in the end of your text.
I don't speak english well 'cause i don't like to learn a language only for american imposition. Yes, i don't like USA.


With Confucius, Han Fei Zi, etc., I would say it is entirely unfounded to say that they are mystic/esoteric/religious, especially since they generally don't advocate religious beliefs anymore than said Greek philosophers. A case could be made that Confucius was less religious actually, other than a few references perhaps to the Mandate of Heaven, and the importance of filial piety leading to ancestor veneration. I would actually say that Confucius was an early political philosopher, given the setting he was in: a fragmenting Zhou dynasty. His goal was to restore social order and eventually peace throughout China. Han Fei Zi contemplated human nature, specifically coming to the conclusion that it was wicked and depraved, requiring systematic law and order, and rewards for the obedient to maintain social order. Such was the way the Chin (Qin) dynasty functioned for its relatively short period of Chinese unification.

The way they used for these conclusions were not as racional or using complex conclusions as Russeau, for example. They did by a intuitive(?) way... In minor scale, ever non-philosophical thinker, make conclusions that are not religious... The Egypt people had a incredible knowledge only with the religion with base of thinking... withou any true philosophy.




I do not mean to be rude, but I would have to say you have not studied much Chinese history. The "basic of the basic" is completely unfounded. If I am understanding your broken English correctly (not trying to be insulting), you are saying that Native Americans had more knowledge of mathematics than Chinese. Chinese actually had an understanding limit laws found in calculus, advanced geometry, Pythagorean theorem and proofs, algorithms, series, quadratics, etc.. Chinese philosophy reveals many intricacies in thought that are both unique and advanced. Your criticism of our art that it is "poor" is rather spurious, especially in a topic so subjective. Leibniz, who brought advances in calculus along with Newton, was a large admirer of China.

My regards,
Chang
I understand you will not admit your ancestries were savages...
i am not racist. i don't think they can't do the most glourious civilization with the greatest knowledge in earth. I think they didn't...!
I heard suspicious things about chinese advance that i never saw a proof... you are not the first. about their mathematical advance... Everytime i ask to a history teacher who knows a lot about China, he says he don't know about this advance... very suspicious... The ancient greeks also had knowledge about limit, also the Maias. But the ancient greeks were very close the calculus... Read about Arquimedes, please!
About Leibniz, it was a sophism(?)... You must prove me that his admiration has a connection with his contribution!

norda
Friday, November 28th, 2003, 12:55 PM
Of course there is such a term as Chinese civilization. According to F. Koneczny „On the plurality of civilization”(London 1962), Chinese civilization is one of four ancient civilizations which have preserved. It could be characterized by supremacy of group not the individuals (the same relates to most of civilizations except Latin (European)), supremacy of physical power not spiritual. It has been un-sacral and atheistic since Confucius. Public life has been organized according to private law (state has been un-ethic). Group (clan) dominates in social life. Family law accepted “partial” polygamy. XX c. was very dynamic so I suppose that Red China absorbed some parts of “Byzantine civilization” to public life. It is possible that it also absorbed some parts of Latin (European) civilization but it could be only reproductive and an effect of copying some European achievements (time, nation?, alphabet, universities).

Evolved
Friday, November 28th, 2003, 09:46 PM
I answered "Yes."

The question was "China is a Civilization?" not "Are the Chinese civilized?" Of course there are uncivilized elements in every civilization. They ususally become either criminals or militants, the smarter ones combine those two careers and become politicians. :P

Von Braun
Monday, December 1st, 2003, 01:10 AM
I voted "yes," but perhaps Jethro Tull's point is that in many, if not most, contemporary cases, the level at which we call a society a "civilization" lies not at the level of the sovereign country, but rather at the level of the geographic and cultural conglomerate. Europe and its derived countries are not many individual civilizations, but rather all of them constitute one civilization, Western, or Occidetal civilization. By this same reasoning, China would be a part of Eastern, or Oriental civilization, and not its own civilization. However, China is so old that it predates other northeast Asian geopolitical units (Japan, Korea, Mongolia), so in my opinion, one can simultaneously talk of China as its own civilization and also as a part of Eastern civilization.

Ahura Mazda
Sunday, December 7th, 2003, 09:55 PM
I voted yes. They are a separate culture from anyone else, arose separately, and are different from most other cultures, if not all. I wish to understand why some people here voted no.

yihequan
Sunday, December 28th, 2003, 04:30 AM
This is what Hitler said:

"I have never regarded the Chinese or the Japanese as being inferior to ourselves. They belong to ancient civilizations, and I admit freely that their past history is superior to our own. They have the right to be proud of their past, just as we have the right to be proud of the civilization to which we belong. Indeed, I believe the more steadfast the Chinese and the Japanese remain in their pride of race, the easier I shall find it to get on with them."

Scoob
Sunday, December 28th, 2003, 05:01 AM
Philosophy is pure greek. Is one of the purest ocidental inventions. The oriental intellectual thinking is mystic/esoteric/religious. Confucius, Lau-Tsé, etc... were not philosophers.... You can read Bertrand Russel to understand this...

Esoteric, you mean like Vedic philosophy? Would you consider Heinrich Himmler's SS, with its interest in esoteric philosophy, to be asiatic? (Uh oh, here come the Heinrich Hirohito jokes...)

There is a dual tradition in Western philosophy: the method of logical and scientific inquiry and criticism, and the method of intuition and inspiration. If you study even a little bit of Western intellectual history, including the scientific history of the 20th century, you will find that both methods compliment each other and have been essential to Western intellectual progress.

The earliest stratum of Greek thought, that of the Pre-socratics, was heavily esoteric/symbolic. Heraclitus, Democritus, et al. And what they had to say was very similar to Vedic beliefs.

And as for Chinese civilization: it was more advanced than Western civ until the 18th century. Just because you might not want to live in Chinese civ doesn't mean it isn't civilization.

And as a side note: I believe that Chinese civ is the main long-term contender for the crown of world hegemony in the next few centuries, in case Western civ crumbles. The Chinese are not falling apart, far from it. They are also employing a tactic used by Lenin to develop the primitive Russian economy after WW1: invite profit-seeking Westerners to move industrial operations to China, and in the meantime develop the Chinese economic infrastructure, for free! The Chinese are an old civ, much older than the West, and they have strong cultural qualities of patience and foresight.

Scoob
Sunday, December 28th, 2003, 05:09 AM
Seeing the topic now, i think China is a civilization, but the lass advanced civilization that existed(now, every countries are copying western culture, are already did it). Native American Civilizations had a big knowledge about mathematic... But China is the "basic of the basic". They thinking had no complex conclusions(or not intuitive. there was no advanced conclusions), few advanced methods in their works, their art is very poor(a basic art, with few forms of cultural reflexing, and not much knowledge) and all their discovers were accidental. like the powder...

Chinese culture has a different emphasis than Western. Western is very focused on development through artifice, show, of material things that can be shown. Even intellectual discourse, etc is "outer" in this sense.

Chinese focuses more on development and refinement of "inner" things, which is reflected in its achievements: Kung fu, the best unarmed fighting art ever developed (unfortunately banned by Mao), philosophy, and so on.

Chinese culture hasn't cultivated the Faustian type ethic at all. Perhaps it is alien to the Chinese race. The Faustian ethic is: "Do more! Make more! Create more! Reach out more!" ad infinitum.

Taras Bulba
Tuesday, December 30th, 2003, 08:17 AM
Chinese culture has a different emphasis than Western. Western is very focused on development through artifice, show, of material things that can be shown. Even intellectual discourse, etc is "outer" in this sense.

Chinese focuses more on development and refinement of "inner" things, which is reflected in its achievements:

I firmly agree with this. I do believe that much can be learned by China's intellectual achievements and I do believe elements of Western philosophy has been influenced by Eastern thinking(although PC often blows it way out of proportion though).




Kung fu, the best unarmed fighting art ever developed (unfortunately banned by Mao), philosophy, and so on.


Although Kung Fu is effective, I think it's highly overrated as a martial art. Besides, don't you know that we Europeans have our own martial arts? It's a fact thats been suppressed these days, which considers all martial arts to be of Far Eastern origins.

http://www.geocities.com/athens/acropolis/4933/westernarts.html
http://ejmas.com/jmanly/jmanlyframe.htm
http://www.aemma.org/
http://www.alliancemartialarts.com/



Chinese culture hasn't cultivated the Faustian type ethic at all. Perhaps it is alien to the Chinese race. The Faustian ethic is: "Do more! Make more! Create more! Reach out more!" ad infinitum.

In some ways, it's to their credit. The most successful Asian economies have been those societies based on traditional Confucian values rather than on our values.

Ratko
Tuesday, December 30th, 2003, 06:07 PM
Gordon Chang is an anti-China individual...

He likes to write books to make the Americans and other anti-China zealots feel happy.

I prefer to read Henry Liu's books that, of course, point som mistakes in the Chinese political and economical system, but also point their successes that are, IMHO, many.

Being proud of our European heritage is not the same thing of being ignorant about happen outside of Europe.

Here is another view on China's economy:

With a strong performance in the trade sector after World Trade Organization accession, record inflows of foreign direct investment, and large fixed investment, the country continued its rapid economic expansion in 2002, recording one of its fastest rates in 5 years. Strong economic performance is expected to continue, though growth will slow slightly in 2003-2004. However, many challenges remain, including slow growth in rural incomes, the need to create jobs and an enabling environment for the private sector, growing disparities between the coastal and interior provinces, and financial sector weaknesses.

Macroeconomic Assessment

GDP growth in the People' s Republic of China (PRC) accelerated to 8.0% in 2002 from 7.3% in 2001, moving higher than the 7.8% average of the previous 5 years. This higher than expected figure resulted from exports performing better than anticipated, surging foreign direct investment (FDI), and buoyant domestic demand. Expansionary fiscal and monetary policies also played a role.

Industry (including construction) was the key engine of economic growth, with value added accelerating to 9.9% in 2002 from 8.7% in 2001. Electronic equipment, transportation equipment, and chemical products all did well. A surge in FDI and export growth resulted in the value added of foreign-funded enterprises increasing by 13.3%. Supported mainly by growth in transportation, telecommunications, and real estate, the services sector expanded by 7.3% in 2002 (though because of weaknesses in the statistical system, growth in this sector is probably underestimated). Despite a spring drought, agriculture sector performance improved slightly compared with the previous 2 years. Grain output, which dropped by 2.1% in 2001, rose by 1%.

A surge in fixed asset investment, which grew by 16.1%, stimulated domestic demand (Figure 2.1). Private investment rose by 15.7% in the year, faster than in 2001. Across sectors, investment in real estate was particularly strong, registering a 21.9% increase in 2002, as housing reforms and more housing mortgage loans led to a buoyant property market. Supported by the Government' s western region development strategy, investment in that region grew by 20.6%, faster than in the central (20.0%) and eastern (16.2%) regions.

http://www.adb.org/Documents/Books/ADO/2003/prc.asp

Louky
Tuesday, December 30th, 2003, 06:10 PM
Chinese culture hasn't cultivated the Faustian type ethic at all. Perhaps it is alien to the Chinese race. The Faustian ethic is: "Do more! Make more! Create more! Reach out more!" ad infinitum.

I think they've caught on to the second Faustian prescription, just by looking at the yule presents and host gifts I received this year.

If Bush really wants my vote, he'll have to bomb the Chinese knickknack factories before next Christmas.

Taras Bulba
Tuesday, December 30th, 2003, 08:51 PM
Gordon Chang is an anti-China individual...

He likes to write books to make the Americans and other anti-China zealots feel happy.

I prefer to read Henry Liu's books that, of course, point som mistakes in the Chinese political and economical system, but also point their successes that are, IMHO, many.

Being proud of our European heritage is not the same thing of being ignorant about happen outside of Europe.

Here is another view on China's economy:

With a strong performance in the trade sector after World Trade Organization accession, record inflows of foreign direct investment, and large fixed investment, the country continued its rapid economic expansion in 2002, recording one of its fastest rates in 5 years. Strong economic performance is expected to continue, though growth will slow slightly in 2003-2004. However, many challenges remain, including slow growth in rural incomes, the need to create jobs and an enabling environment for the private sector, growing disparities between the coastal and interior provinces, and financial sector weaknesses.

Macroeconomic Assessment

GDP growth in the People' s Republic of China (PRC) accelerated to 8.0% in 2002 from 7.3% in 2001, moving higher than the 7.8% average of the previous 5 years. This higher than expected figure resulted from exports performing better than anticipated, surging foreign direct investment (FDI), and buoyant domestic demand. Expansionary fiscal and monetary policies also played a role.

Industry (including construction) was the key engine of economic growth, with value added accelerating to 9.9% in 2002 from 8.7% in 2001. Electronic equipment, transportation equipment, and chemical products all did well. A surge in FDI and export growth resulted in the value added of foreign-funded enterprises increasing by 13.3%. Supported mainly by growth in transportation, telecommunications, and real estate, the services sector expanded by 7.3% in 2002 (though because of weaknesses in the statistical system, growth in this sector is probably underestimated). Despite a spring drought, agriculture sector performance improved slightly compared with the previous 2 years. Grain output, which dropped by 2.1% in 2001, rose by 1%.

A surge in fixed asset investment, which grew by 16.1%, stimulated domestic demand (Figure 2.1). Private investment rose by 15.7% in the year, faster than in 2001. Across sectors, investment in real estate was particularly strong, registering a 21.9% increase in 2002, as housing reforms and more housing mortgage loans led to a buoyant property market. Supported by the Government' s western region development strategy, investment in that region grew by 20.6%, faster than in the central (20.0%) and eastern (16.2%) regions.

http://www.adb.org/Documents/Books/ADO/2003/prc.asp
China may develop into an economic super-power, but don't flatter yourself too much on China being a military one. Despite what all the media claims, military power still matters significantly in the world and one cannot just buy off your opponents.

Ratko
Tuesday, December 30th, 2003, 11:45 PM
China may develop into an economic super-power, but don't flatter yourself too much on China being a military one. Despite what all the media claims, military power still matters significantly in the world and one cannot just buy off your opponents.

Have you ever considered the fact China does not want to be a military superpower, a?

China is not militar superpower, but in this point Serbia is not either, and almost NO nation in Europe is...

That is why, unfortunately, most European nations are acting just like some pitful lapdogs to the Americans.

Pozdrav

Ratko
Tuesday, December 30th, 2003, 11:46 PM
China may develop into an economic super-power, but don't flatter yourself too much on China being a military one. Despite what all the media claims, military power still matters significantly in the world and one cannot just buy off your opponents.

Have you ever considered the fact that, perhaps, China does not want to be a military superpower, a?

China is not militar superpower, but in this point Serbia is not either, and almost NO nation in Europe is...

That is why, unfortunately, most European nations are acting just like some pitful lapdogs to the Americans.

Pozdrav

Milesian
Monday, January 5th, 2004, 02:35 PM
[QUOTE=Pushkin]http://www.geocities.com/athens/acropolis/4933/westernarts.html
http://ejmas.com/jmanly/jmanlyframe.htm
http://www.aemma.org/
http://www.alliancemartialarts.com/

Not to forget the Irish Whiskey Stick Fighting. :D

- Thorburn

I believe Muy Thai is the most effective unarmed eastern martial art.
And has been proved so against Kung Fu masters.

But I have to agree with Njord, few things in this world are as effective as a drunk Irishman with a stick :D

Taras Bulba
Tuesday, January 6th, 2004, 05:16 AM
Have you ever considered the fact China does not want to be a military superpower, a?

Yes I have considered that. In fact, thats one reason why I argue against the the notion that China is the next superpower, because its leaders have no intention for it. They're content with a China that can stand on its own two feet.

CyberNinja
Monday, January 12th, 2004, 07:53 AM
Chinese civilization is one of the most advanced civilization in the world till several hundred years ago. Now I'm in mainland of china,as a foreign expert to help them in infrastructure.I find many beautiful mongoloid
adies,here's some pics and none of them are celebrities.

cosmocreator
Monday, January 12th, 2004, 08:07 AM
Chinese civilization is one of the most advanced civilization in the world till several hundred years ago. Now I'm in mainland of china,as a foreign expert to help them in infrastructure.I find many beautiful mongoloid
adies,here's some pics and none of them are celebrities.


Can you write anything besides this? You've said that about 4 times already.

CyberNinja
Monday, January 12th, 2004, 08:13 AM
Can you write anything besides this? You've said that about 4 times already.

lol,what made me say that for 4 times is that I registed this forum justnow,and i cannot find the thread which i posted,so i feel some dizzy.
and now,it's ok.

cosmocreator
Monday, January 12th, 2004, 08:16 AM
lol,what made me say that for 4 times is that I registed this forum justnow,and i cannot find the thread which i posted,so i feel some dizzy.
and now,it's ok.


New members are moderated. It takes time for your posts to show up.

Agrippa
Monday, January 12th, 2004, 01:15 PM
China is not only a civilization, its one of the few I admire.

goidelicwarrior
Monday, January 12th, 2004, 02:36 PM
I vote 'no'. lay of the weed ... ;)

goidelicwarrior
Monday, January 12th, 2004, 02:38 PM
I vote 'no'. smoking again??? ;)

Milesian
Monday, January 12th, 2004, 03:23 PM
You forgot to attach the pics or to provide links? I'd love to see them.

- Thorburn



http://www.forums.skadi.net/showthread.php?t=7305

Be still my raging hormones :D

Loki
Sunday, January 18th, 2004, 10:06 PM
Chinese civilization is one of the most advanced civilization in the world till several hundred years ago.

Incorrect. China is still one of the most advanced civilizations.

http://www.economist.com/world/asia/displayStory.cfm?story_id=2352814

http://www.economist.com/images/20040117/0304AS1.jpg

Shanghai '04


Whether you call them delusions of grandeur or visionary thinking, China's biggest city has plans that are nothing if not bold

APART from a dozen Chinese tourists posing for a photograph, the platform at the oval dome-covered Longyang Road Station is nearly empty as the world's fastest train pulls in. Minutes later, with all but a handful of its 500 seats unoccupied, the train glides off, levitating on an electromagnetic cushion that propels it with barely a judder to its top speed of 430kph (267mph). It takes just eight minutes to complete the journey to Pudong International Airport, an ultra-modern structure of glass and steel 30km (19 miles) away.

Considering the thrill of being on the world's first maglev train in commercial use—and the half an hour or more saved on the journey—it might seem odd that so few people are trying it out. Since daily services were launched on December 29th, about 1,000 tickets a day have been sold on weekdays (out of 12,000 available). At weekends, when novelty-seekers are out in greater numbers, the total still only rises to about 5,000, according to Song Xiaojun, general manager of Shanghai Maglev Transportation Development Co. If the arrival of maglev is a great boon to Shanghai's overburdened transportation system, few appear to be aware of it.

It is more than just a cautious approach to rolling out this new, German-supplied, technology that is keeping numbers down. While other countries, including Germany itself, have hesitated about adopting maglev because of the high cost and uncertain returns, Shanghai has happily poured $1.2 billion into its track—even though a glance at a map immediately suggests the risks involved. Longyang Road Station, the only stop apart from the airport, is on the city's eastern fringe, a considerable distance from most residential areas. A taxi ride between the airport and Longyang costs little more than the 75 yuan ($9) price of a maglev ticket and saves the hassle of a transfer.

Shanghai's gamble on maglev, in which seven big state-owned companies have a stake, reflects an approach to the city's development that places great store on massively expensive and commercially dicey projects. Since the early 1990s Shanghai has been driven by a desire to reclaim its pre-communist era status as a regional financial capital and a cosmopolitan haven for international capitalists eager to penetrate the Chinese market—that lavish but raffish world immortalised in Vicki Baum's novel, “Shanghai '37”. China's former prime minister, Zhu Rongji (who previously served as Shanghai's party chief and is normally known for his hard-headedness), strongly backed the maglev project when it got under way in 2000.

Cynics should perhaps beware. The city's “build it and they will come” mentality has, after all, paid off handsomely before. Many people scoffed when Shanghai announced plans in 1990 to develop what was then just an expanse of marshy land, villages and old factories into the city's new financial district. Today Pudong, as the area is called (and where the maglev is located), is a stunning conglomeration of soaring office towers and hi-tech factories (pictured above) that has attracted tens of billions of dollars in foreign investment. Last year, it is reckoned, it sucked in just under $6 billion, more than a tenth of the total for the entire country.

In the next few years, changes in Shanghai—whose GDP, according to the official figures, grew last year by a sizzling 11.8%—could be similarly dramatic. In September, the city is due to host China's first Formula One car-racing event. This has involved one of the biggest outlays of any Formula One venue in the world, with $310m being spent on a 5.5km circuit and related facilities now under construction on the western outskirts of the city.

The plan is to turn this into the centrepiece of a new “auto city” in which all aspects of the industry from manufacturing to sales will be concentrated. Yu Zhifei, deputy general manager of the track's developers, Shanghai International Circuit Co, admits that a lot of Chinese do not know what Formula One is and that many who do are sceptical about the track's ability to make money. But he says he is confident that the facility, with a seating capacity of 200,000, will turn a profit as Chinese consumers' new-found penchant for cars continues to grow apace.

The car craze is evident in the worsening congestion of Shanghai's streets. But to the maglev's operators, this is comforting. “Within a few years, it'll be very inconvenient to take the road to the airport,” enthuses Mr Song. And next year, he says, work should begin on extending the line another 7km to the site where the World Expo will be held in 2010 on the banks of the Huangpu River, much closer to the city centre. The hope is that it will become the main way to visit the fair, an event that lasts several months.

Shanghai's planners regard the World Expo as the city's greatest opportunity to show off its resurgent glory. Scepticism may abound about the ability of World Expos to generate profits. Hanover, site of the last such event in 2000, suffered a disappointing turnout. But Shanghai sees it as comparable to Beijing's hosting of the Olympic Games in 2008: an event that will fix the world's attention on the city's, and the country's, achievements. Compared to that, the $3 billion needed to build the facilities and relocate tens of thousands of residents to the outskirts is a trifle. And, anyway, by then the maglev's operators hope to be making a profit.

Emperor
Sunday, May 16th, 2004, 10:56 PM
Anyone who votes no is himself uncivilized. China has accomplished more than most European countries.
Very true. :)

Obviously the topicstarter doesn't know much about China.

Emperor
Sunday, May 16th, 2004, 11:02 PM
Such is the reason so many Chinese are killing themselves to get into these less civilized European countries.

Why don't you move to China and tell us how life is? :)
My friend, China has been around for thousands of years. You cannot say China isn't a civilization only because China hasn't been doing so well after Western countries got into China and started to destory things.