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friedrich braun
Sunday, November 23rd, 2003, 03:03 AM
This is truly a beautiful piece!!!

ODINISM

Our Heritage and Identity - Part 1

First published in ORB No. 106, March 1991

Our Heritage and Identity - Part 1

First published in ORB No. 106, March 1991

The Odinic Rite celebrates our own unique Folk Faith, and in present day society its existence is in itself something to celebrate because it affirms that against huge odds our Holy Faith has never died.

To survive and flourish we must be able to fend for ourselves, for no-one else will fend for us - but that is the way of the Northern Peoples. We survived and flourished with no help from anyone but ourselves (and the Gods). When our ancestors' harvests were poor, and starvation stalked the land, they had no stranger people to organise 'Band Aid' or any other aid. So it was in all areas of life - our forbears lived with the constant threat of destruction.

Today, materially, we seem to be far more secure, but again our Folk face extinction. In the apace of a century our percentage of the world's population has plummeted to under 10%, our homelands have large and rapidly breeding alien communities, and stranger people control most of our 'wealth', and dictate to our supposed 'leaders'. Yet, in these dark times, the sacred light of our Faith still glows. A return to our Ancestral Faith is a promise of survival, and in this we must rely on ourselves; we must be dedicated and strong. Remember also that our religion is a living faith, and no amount of purely academic knowledge (important as it may be) can equal the experience of actually feeling and living Odinism, the spiritual heritage of our people, our birthright. It is heartening to see our kin in countries across Midgarth claiming again this right.

The Odinic Rite encourages the practice of all positive aspects of our religion, and there are many. One of the most important is performing the Blots, when we can very consciously link with our comrade Odinists in honouring our Gods. The Blots are the celebration of our Gods by their People, and a blessing of their People from our Gods. In performing each Blot we consciously affirm again our past, present, and continuing biological and spiritual link with our Ancestors, Lands and Gods. We, the Odinic Rite, are a manifestation of that link.

Odinism gives us our identity, and identity is vital, for an individual, and for a race. Many of today's problems, personal, national, and global, stem from a loss of identity. We are in an unnatural situation, for while it is socially acceptable, in tact seen as desirable, for all other ethnic groups to feel a pride in their culture, their heritage, the same does not apply to us.

Backbreaking stances are taken by established authority, and draconian laws are passed, to ensure that the customs of stranger peoples are protected, respected, and encouraged, but we are taught to belittle and forget our own. We are constantly made to feel guilty for our successes, ashamed of our heritage. The virtues of other peoples are extolled, but our own neglected.

This perverse, twisted teaching is found on every level, from cheap soap-operas to academic works. But to survive, to flourish, we must preserve our identity, and there is nothing that more clearly defines this than our people's native, organic religion, because a Native Faith is the sum of a Folk - what it was, what it is, and what it can be.

The loss, or blurring of our identity was inevitable once our people were converted to a faith which was not their own - a religion which taught that a stranger God was the only God, and that a stranger people were the Chosen People - a religion which taught a disgust of life and of the Earth, and which taught that we are all guilty of some awful inherent lain' - a religion which 'ungodded' nature.

It was our Folk then, more than others, who were enslaved by this alien faith, and as we, more than others, have influenced world events, the harm we have done has been worldwide.

We know that each Folk (and therefore the world) is best served by it's own way. For the Japanese it is Shinto, for the Indians it is Hinduism - for our Folk that way is Odinism. It reflects our true character and inspiration.
©2003 The Odinic Rite

All articles are the work of OR members and friends (1980's to present)
and do not necessarily represent the views of the OR as a whole.

http://odinic-rite.org/index2.html

dinarid love
Sunday, November 23rd, 2003, 08:07 AM
That was very well put and quite true.

Taras Bulba
Sunday, November 23rd, 2003, 08:23 AM
We know that each Folk (and therefore the world) is best served by it's own way. For the Japanese it is Shinto, for the Indians it is Hinduism - for our Folk that way is Odinism. It reflects our true character and inspiration.

This is one thing I simply don't understand about most heathens/pagans. They choose a religion because of its origins rather than its theology.

Some advice: it's perfectly ok to be attracted to and interested in a faith because of its ethnic origins; just make sure you also agree with its philosophy/theology before adhering to it!

friedrich braun
Sunday, November 23rd, 2003, 08:41 AM
Euro-paganism/heathenism has a theology, they just don't have fifteen centuries of internecine, religious butcheries and wars and inquisitions and persecutions and genocides, etc. over incomprehensible gobbledygook behind them. Christianity was persecuted (not as extensively as Christian propagandists alleged, btw) for roughly three hundred years; however, Christians persecuted (and with the vengeance of a mad dog) for roughly fifteen centuries.

Read up on various Euro-pagan/heathen religious before making such an arrogant and ill-informed statement.


This is one thing I simply don't understand about most heathens/pagans. They choose a religion because of its origins rather than its theology.

Some advice: it's perfectly ok to be attracted to and interested in a faith because of its ethnic origins; just make sure you also agree with its philosophy/theology before adhering to it!

Taras Bulba
Sunday, November 23rd, 2003, 08:50 AM
:lol Funny you accuse me of being arrogant and ill-informed when I never stated that heathenism/euro-paganism doesn't have a theology. Go ahead Friederich, please point to the sentence where I said anything of the sort.

I said many adherents to heathenism choose to adhere to it primarily for reasons of ethnic origins as opposed to largely on theological grounds. What proof do I have, I have the words of heathens themselves who admit it!

And I simply gave some common sense advice that one should primarily adhere to a religion because they agree with its theology. Sorry for actually showed some concern for your faith. In fact one could have easily said the same thing about Christianity and choosing which denomination to belong to.

You need to relax.

Stríbog
Sunday, November 23rd, 2003, 09:49 AM
European heathenism and paganism have theologies, but no developed ethos or philosophy. They are actually quite primitive and intellectually sterile relics of a period in time when virtually all Europeans had achieved very little of what we would call civilization. Viking wannabes and fetishists notwithstanding, berserkers running around looting and raping and pillaging is not something I want to be associated with. Am I of Scandinavian ancestry? Yes. Does it make me feel compelled to make up silly pagan pseudonyms and some stupid username like AryanHeilOdinVikingWarriorMjöllnir? No. Everyone's ancestors were savages at some point, but actually revelling in that fact is quite bizarre, especially for people who want to talk about civilization. Ancient Greeks had quite a crude religion as well, but I don't see any Zeusian temples or Apollonian oracles around. Why should we take Thor and Odin any more seriously? They are no more real than Zeus or Apollo, or any other pagan deities in any cultures. I understand and approve of wanting to preserve them as ancestral symbols for posterity's sake, but trying to keep them around as a legitimate religion is frankly asinine. Most pagans and heathens today aren't even racialist; they are fat 30-something guys who live in their parents' basement, read Lord of the Rings books and play Dungeons and Dragons.

Nor is Christianity any better. It didn't civilize the heathens, it just replaced their silly primitive deities with other silly primitive deities from somewhere else. It was just as scientifically backwards and socially barbaric as any other religion. It stifled learning and progress just as other dogmatic religions do. Paganism is no better off in this regard; Socrates was put to death for lacking piety towards the Gods, after all. Pagans seem to think that they are innocent victims of evil Christian persecution and that pre-Christian Europe was some kind of paradise. Furthermore, they want to deny that paganism was anti-progress, dogmatic and hostile to other religions itself. All organized religions end up bringing out these base human instincts: greed, lust for power, pride, arrogance, conquest, etc. Internecine wars would just as surely have occurred under paganism as under Christianity. They would have just been fought under a different pretense. All wars are really started about the same things: land, money, power. Everything else is just for show. Religions don't change a person's fundamental constitution; they only amplify or mute their inherent drives and instincts. To maintain that religions totally transform a person for better or worse and make them do things they wouldn't have otherwise is to buy in to absurd behaviorist social conditioning theories.

Taras Bulba
Sunday, November 23rd, 2003, 10:08 AM
In the interests of fairness, I'll deal entirely with Stribog's rants against Christianity and let the Heathens deal with his views on their faith.



Nor is Christianity any better. It didn't civilize the heathens, it just replaced their silly primitive deities with other silly primitive deities from somewhere else. It was just as scientifically backwards and socially barbaric as any other religion. It stifled learning and progress just as other dogmatic religions do.


And you're an idiot! Irish monks copied and preserved all sorts of Classical knowledge during the Dark Ages, when barbarian hordes were ravaging across Europe and burning libraries. Most historians agree that if it weren't for these monks, any book written before 1000AD would've been lost forever.

During the Middle Ages, almost all learned men were men of the Church. Many, like St. Thomas Aquinas, helped revived Greco-Roman knolwedge and even helped lay the foundations for the Renaisiance.

Pope Gregory XIII introduced a major achievement in modern astronomy. The Western world still marked time by the Julian calendar created in 46 B.C. The calendar was 12 days off, leaving Church feasts woefully behind the seasons for which they were intended. A number of pontiffs had attempted to correct the problem, but it was Pope Gregory XIII who was able to present a more accurate calendar in 1582. BTW, this calender is still being used today!

Then it should be noted that Nicholas Copernicus was a priest when he theorized that the earth moved around the sun. Pope Leo X (1513-1521) was intrigued by his theories and expressed an interest in hearing them advanced. Since at the time there was no way to phyiscally prove Copernicus's theories, the church said that his views should be presented as such; only theories and not facts.

So contrary to your ravings, the Church and faith indeed contributed much to scientific research and discovery.

Stríbog
Sunday, November 23rd, 2003, 05:35 PM
LOL no need to resort to insults.

The Irish monks card has been played entirely to death, and I haven't seen much to suggest they preserved many secular intellectual works. I don't consider things like the Book of Kells to be landmark works of European culture. Most historians I've seen don't argue this, except for incredibly biased Irish ones who search desperately for any real contribution Ireland has made intellectually. The Arab world was actually responsible for most of the Classical preservation that occurred during the Middle Ages. The school at Toledo was world-renowned and European royalty actually sent their children there to be educated by Moors. The 'learned men' were of the Church only because the Church denied education to the masses, fearful they would become too powerful and politically viable. Being a 'learned man' in the Middle Ages usually just meant being able to read and write and speak Latin; true intellectuals were persecuted by the Church.

The real fact is that Christianity brought on the Dark Ages, and anyone who examine history objectively will realize this. Christianity was incredibly hostile to true intellect. Read the story of how the Alexandrian academic Hypatia had her flesh carved off with shells and was burnt alive for her refusal to embrace Christianity. Christianity

Galileo and Copernicus were NOT embraced by the Church. Copernicus' theories directly contradicted the Bible and were rejected a priori. The Bible, that repository of scientific wisdom, also claims that insects have 4 legs and that bats are birds. Christianity forbade biological experiments: dissection, pathology, fertilization experiments, etc. This is why the Arab world surpasses Europe in medicine for centuries: it did not have prohibitions against dissection and anatomical studies. I won't even bring up Darwinism since you probably don't accept that either. Christianity caused every unexplained occurrence to be attributed to wizardry and witchcraft, and who knows how many people were burnt as wizards or witches?

Thomas Aquinas was pathetic as a philosopher, and you know it. He didn't contribute to the Renaissance one bit. The Renaissance was actually brought on by a rise in humanism, that old enemy of faith. The artists continued making religious works of art to avoid condemnation by the authorities, but were hardly Christian in their personal lives. Da Vinci was probably gay.

Tell me what advances were made by your pious friends between 400 AD and 1500 AD?

Taras Bulba
Wednesday, November 26th, 2003, 04:35 AM
Stribog, I will get back to your arguments. Right now I've been busy and have not been able to to reply to this lately. Although I can assure you I have refuted much of you wrote here!

friedrich braun
Wednesday, November 26th, 2003, 07:01 AM
The Greco-Roman pagans as well as Northern European had vague, tolerant, sunny polytheism, and, unlike Christians, never claimed to have a monopoly on “truth”; it was the Church’s monopoly on the said “truth” that ultimately led to the total extermination of folkish, indigenous religious and their adherents.


European heathenism and paganism have theologies, but no developed ethos or philosophy. They are actually quite primitive and intellectually sterile relics of a period in time when virtually all Europeans had achieved very little of what we would call civilization. Viking wannabes and fetishists notwithstanding, berserkers running around looting and raping and pillaging is not something I want to be associated with. Am I of Scandinavian ancestry? Yes. Does it make me feel compelled to make up silly pagan pseudonyms and some stupid username like AryanHeilOdinVikingWarriorMjöllnir? No. Everyone's ancestors were savages at some point, but actually revelling in that fact is quite bizarre, especially for people who want to talk about civilization. Ancient Greeks had quite a crude religion as well, but I don't see any Zeusian temples or Apollonian oracles around. Why should we take Thor and Odin any more seriously? They are no more real than Zeus or Apollo, or any other pagan deities in any cultures. I understand and approve of wanting to preserve them as ancestral symbols for posterity's sake, but trying to keep them around as a legitimate religion is frankly asinine. Most pagans and heathens today aren't even racialist; they are fat 30-something guys who live in their parents' basement, read Lord of the Rings books and play Dungeons and Dragons.

Nor is Christianity any better. It didn't civilize the heathens, it just replaced their silly primitive deities with other silly primitive deities from somewhere else. It was just as scientifically backwards and socially barbaric as any other religion. It stifled learning and progress just as other dogmatic religions do. Paganism is no better off in this regard; Socrates was put to death for lacking piety towards the Gods, after all. Pagans seem to think that they are innocent victims of evil Christian persecution and that pre-Christian Europe was some kind of paradise. Furthermore, they want to deny that paganism was anti-progress, dogmatic and hostile to other religions itself. All organized religions end up bringing out these base human instincts: greed, lust for power, pride, arrogance, conquest, etc. Internecine wars would just as surely have occurred under paganism as under Christianity. They would have just been fought under a different pretense. All wars are really started about the same things: land, money, power. Everything else is just for show. Religions don't change a person's fundamental constitution; they only amplify or mute their inherent drives and instincts. To maintain that religions totally transform a person for better or worse and make them do things they wouldn't have otherwise is to buy in to absurd behaviorist social conditioning theories.

Stríbog
Wednesday, November 26th, 2003, 07:26 AM
The Greco-Roman pagans as well as Northern European had vague, tolerant, sunny polytheism, and, unlike Christians, never claimed to have a monopoly on “truth”; it was the Church’s monopoly on the said “truth” that ultimately led to the total extermination of folkish, indigenous religious and their adherents.

Then why was Socrates put to death for impiety towards the gods?

friedrich braun
Wednesday, November 26th, 2003, 07:40 AM
Then why was Socrates put to death for impiety towards the gods?

That's all you have? One man? Lol! :D

Compared to the killing fields left by the monotheism that followed?

Corrupting Athenian youth was the chief accusation, btw.

If you've read Plato's account of the Trial of Socrates you'd know that he was given a chance to go quitely into exile and had an opportunity to "escape" while the authorities closed their eyes (his friends begged him to leave, to no avail), but he chose to stay and drink the Hemlock http://socrates.clarke.edu/

Your ignorance or bad faith on all kinds of issues is truly astounding.

Stríbog
Wednesday, November 26th, 2003, 04:28 PM
Wars are always fought over the same things: power, money, land. Anything else is just pretense. Religion doesn't change human nature.

There were plenty of wars of conquest between Europeans during the pagan era too. The main reason that most of the Christian wars were bloodier is because they occurred later after the introduction of gunpowder, artillery and muskets.

The Viking invasion of Britain saw a lot of atrocities. Vikings liked to sacrifice the chiefs and warriors of opposing populations in several gruesome ways. The Blood Eagle consisted of tearing open the back on either side of the spine, breaking the ribs off on either side and splaying them outward to create the appearance of wings. The lungs were also pulled out during this process.
The Walk consisted of slicing open the abdomen and forcing the victim to walk around an object to wrap all of his small intestine around it.

http://www.oceansonline.com/vikings.htm
http://www.angelfire.com/wa3/bloodeagle/what.html
http://www.lsu.edu/necrofile/cape11.htm


The German tribes' invasions of Rome weren't caused by Christianity either. They were caused by the desire to loot and plunder a decadent empire.

I used to be unconvinced that Celts also practiced human sacrifice, but the evidence is convincing.

http://en2.wikipedia.org/wiki/Celts_and_human_sacrifice
http://www.digitalmedievalist.com/faqs/sacrific.html

Organized religion is always a negative thing, regardless of its style.

Tell me what positive things you think Asatru and Odinism contributed to Europe?

friedrich braun
Thursday, November 27th, 2003, 08:59 AM
Tell me what positive things you think Asatru and Odinism contributed to Europe

What we lost with the advent of Christianity, and the corresponding abandonment of our indigenous belief-systems, is an Indo-European world-view.

I support a rehabilitation of paganism in order to restore to Euros their genuine identity that existed before Christian corruption. When Christianity proclaimed itself as the key to the riddle of the universe with universal aspirations, the pernicious belief in equality and the suppression of all human differences followed suit.

Tomislav Sunic notes,

Pagan Notion of the Sacred

To the critics who argue that polytheism is a thing of the prehistoric and primitive mind incompatible with modern societies, one could respond that paganism is not necessarily a return to "paradise lost" or a nostalgia for the restoration of the Greco-Roman order. For pagan conservatives, to pledge allegiance to "paganism" means to rekindle Europe's historical origins, as well as to revive some sacred aspects of life that existed in Europe prior to the rise of Christianity. One could also add that, as far as the alleged supremacy or modernity of Judeo-Christianity over the backwardness of Indo-European polytheism is concerned, Judeo-Christian religions, in terms of their modernity, are no less backward than pagan religions. To emphasize this point de Benoist writes:
"Just as it was yesterday a grotesque spectacle to see the "pagan idols" denounced by Christian missionaries, who were themselves enamored of their own bric-a bracs, so it is somewhat ridiculous to see the (European) "past" denounced by those who never tire of praising Judeo-Christian continuity, and who refer us to the example of "always modern" Abraham, Jacob, Isaac, and other proto-historic Beduins."(22)
According to some pagan thinkers, Judeo-Christian rationalization of historical time has precluded the projection of one's own national past and, in so doing, it has significantly contributed to the "desertification" of the world. In the last century, Ernest Renan observed that Judaism is oblivious of the notion of the sacred, because the "desert itself is monotheistic."(23) In a similar tone, Alain de Benoist in L'éclipse, while quoting Harvey Cox's The Secular City, writes that the loss of the sacred, which is causing today the "disenchantment" of the modern polity, resulted as the legitimate consequence of the Biblical renunciation of history. First, the disenchantment of nature had started with the Creation; the desacralization of politics with the Exodus; and the deconsecration of values with the Alliance of Sinai, especially after the interdiction of idols (129). Continuing with similar analyses, Mircea Eliade, an author himself influenced by pagan world, adds that Judaic resentment of pagan idolatry stems from the ultra-rational character of Mosaic laws that rationalize all aspects of life by means of a myriad of prescriptions, laws, and interdictions:
"Desacralization of the Nature, devaluation of cultural activity, in short, the violent and total rejection of cosmic religion, and above all the decisive importance conferred upon spiritual regeneration by the definite return of Yahveh, was the prophets' response to historical crises menacing the two Jewish kingdoms."(24)
Some might object that Catholicism has its own form of the sacred and that, unlike some other forms of Judeo-Christian beliefs, it displays its own spiritual transcendence. But there are reasons to believe that the Catholic concept of the sacred does not emerge sui generis, but rather as a substratum of the Christian amalgam with paganism. As de Benoist notes, Christianity owes its manifestation of the sacred (holy sites, pilgrimages, Christmas festivities, and the pantheon of saints) to the indomitable undercurrent of pagan and polytheistic sensibility. Therefore, it seems that the pagan revival today represents less a normative religion, in the Christian sense of the word, than a certain spiritual equipment that stands in contrast to the religion of Jews and Christians. Consequently, as some pagan thinkers suggest, the possible replacement of the monotheistic vision of the world by the polytheistic vision of the world could mean not just the "return of gods" but the return of the plurality of social values as well.
Courage, personal honor, and spiritual and physical self-surpass-ment are often cited as the most important virtues of paganism. In contrast to Christian and Marxian utopian optimism, paganism emphasizes the profound sense of the tragic, the tragi0c-as seen in Greek tragedies-that sustains man in his Promethean plight and that makes his life worth living. (25) It is the pagan sense of the tragic that can explain man's destiny-destiny, which for old Indo-Europeans "triggered action, endeavor, and self-surpassment. (26) Hans Günther summarizes this point in the following words:
"[I]ndo-European religiosity is not rooted in any kind of fear, neither in fear of deity nor in fear of death. The words of the Latter-day Roman poet, that fear first created the Gods (Statius, Thebais, 3:661: primus in orbe fecit deos timor), cannot be applied to the true forms of Indo-European religiosity, for wherever it has unfolded freely, the "fear of the Lord" (Proverbs, Solomon 9, 10; Psalm 11, 30) has proved neither the beginning of belief nor of wisdom."(27)
Some have suggested that the greatest civilizations are those that have shown a strong sense of the tragic and that have had no fear of death.(28) In the pagan concept of the tragic, man is encouraged to take responsibility before history because man is the only one who gives history a meaning. Commenting on Nietzsche, Giorgio Locchi writes that, in pagan cosmogony, man alone is considered a forger of his own destiny (faber suae fortunea), exempt from biblical or historical determinism, "divine grace," or economic and material constraints.(29) Paganism stresses a heroic attitude toward life as opposed to the Christian attitude of culpability and fear toward life. Sigrid Hunke writes of the [e/ssentialization of life, since both life and death have the same essence and are always contained in both. The life, which at any moment is face-to-death and with-death, renders the future per-manent in each instant, and life becomes eternal by acquiring an inscrutable profundity, and by assuming the value of eternity.
For Hunke, along with other authors of pagan sensibility, in order to restore these pagan virtues in the secular city, man must first abandon the dualistic logic of religious and social exclusion, "a logic which has been responsible for extremism not only among individuals, but also among parties and peoples, and which, starting out from Europe, has disseminated into the world this dualistic split that has acquired planetary proportions."(30) To achieve this ambitious goal, Western man must first rethink the meaning of history.

http://www.aryanunity.com/mmpsc.html

I suggest that you read the entire article, it's a very good submission on behalf of a Euro-pagan revival.

Allenson
Thursday, November 27th, 2003, 12:56 PM
Perhaps this will sound strange to some ears but I didn't really "choose" a Heathen way. It's more of a case where it chose me. It is in my fiber and in my veins at a perhaps, molecular level; genetically remembered. It's about my reverence for all things Natural; the forces and powers of the world that act upon us at every moment and that are awesome to behold for we have little to no 'say' in the matters that envelop us. It keeps me decent and humble not heady and all cerebral-like filled with delusions and illusions of intelligencia and "civilization". It keeps me grounded for it is of the ground I walk on with muddy boots, yet it keeps me lifted for it is of the northerly breeze which sings through spruce and fir above me. I am quenched by its running stream behind my house and nourished by its corn from the garden and its turkey from the field.

I am not interested in the "accomplishments" of a particular faith but instead on my own being and self and my accomplishment of being harmonious with Nerthus. This I approach through perhaps what is a modern synthesis of northern European Heathenism. It is an extension of my own ethnoracial heritage. It is a preservation of my yeoman, rural ancestral soul where Nature and her many facets are paramount to daily life. It is not sheltered by modern, luxurious conveniences which spawn at the least, the type that Stribog so humorously noted (the fat, D & D playing, still living with their parents in their 30s types) but instead, revels in the path laid out by the Natural Setting; harnessing and harvesting her gifts while taking appropriate action when challenged. I come-about when the breeze heads me, I jibe when it comes from arrear and I run on a beautiful reach when the wind is abeam. Heathendom to me is not about the "new age"and wearing Thor's Hammer while I sit in front of the television, hypnotized by its allure but instead, it is about being at the root of my northern humanness; self-sufficient, hard-working, independent and a realm unto myself.

Tautalos
Thursday, November 27th, 2003, 02:46 PM
This is one thing I simply don't understand about most heathens/pagans. They choose a religion because of its origins rather than its theology.

Some advice: it's perfectly ok to be attracted to and interested in a faith because of its ethnic origins; just make sure you also agree with its philosophy/theology before adhering to it!


Since there are no dogmas in ancient Paganisms, there is no problem of agreement in what concerns theology.

Tautalos
Thursday, November 27th, 2003, 03:08 PM
European heathenism and paganism have theologies, but no developed ethos or philosophy

Wrong. Read, for instances, the post «The Moral Superiority of Greco-Roman Paganism Over Judaism», in

http://www.forums.skadi.net/showthread.php?t=5839



«They are actually quite primitive and intellectually sterile relics of a period in time when virtually all Europeans had achieved very little of what we would call civilization»

That's absolutely ridiculous. The highest levels of intelectual and cultural achievments, date from pagan times. Plato, Aristotle, Homer, date from those ancient periods.



«Viking wannabes and fetishists notwithstanding, berserkers running around looting and raping and pillaging is not something I want to be associated with»

Perhaps you prefer to be associated with american soldiers, or motards, running aound looting and raping and pillaging.



«Does it make me feel compelled to make up silly pagan pseudonyms and some stupid username like AryanHeilOdinVikingWarriorMjöllnir?»

Curiously enough, you use a name of a Slavic God...



«Everyone's ancestors were savages at some point, but actually revelling in that fact is quite bizarre,»

Nobody is revelling in such a fact. Ancient religions do not have to be dependent on ancient behaviours in war, or in feast, etc..




«Ancient Greeks had quite a crude religion as well,»

Ancient Greeks are just the founders of Western Culture, and the most important intelectual references of the contemporary culture are of Hellenic origin.



«but I don't see any Zeusian temples or Apollonian oracles around»

In that case, open your eyes, because they are returning. For instances, an Hellenic pagan group is now building a temple in Greece.



« Why should we take Thor and Odin any more seriously? They are no more real than Zeus or Apollo, or any other pagan deities in any cultures»

I.e., They are as real as Zeus or Apollo, or any other pagan Deities in any cultures.


«Paganism is no better off in this regard; Socrates was put to death for lacking piety towards the Gods,»

That haves nothing to do with «obscurantism», or with «denying science», but with religious-politic issues. He was accused of introducing FOREIGN Deities in the State, not of being an «atheist».


«Pagans seem to think that they are innocent victims of evil Christian persecution and that pre-Christian Europe was some kind of paradise»

It is a fact that there was no religious intolerance and persecution in pre-Christian Europe.



«Furthermore, they want to deny that paganism was anti-progress, dogmatic and hostile to other religions itself»

Baseless and ridiculous statements. Paganism never stood against progress, and ancient pagans societies had a lot of scientifical development; Paganism, was never dogmatic; European Paganism was never, ever, hostile to other religions.



«All organized religions end up bringing out these base human instincts: greed, lust for power, pride, arrogance, conquest,»

In that case, let's ban all ideologies, and doctrines; let's even forbid people from thinking, because greed, lust for power, conquest, arrogance, will certainly be present there.



«Internecine wars would just as surely have occurred under paganism as under Christianity. They would have just been fought under a different pretense»

Not in the name of Religion, for sure.


«All wars are really started about the same things: land, money, power»

In that case, all wars are started by things that exist everywhere, regardless of religion. And so, you contradict your own argument.



«Religions don't change a person's fundamental constitution;»

Religions do not need to change a person's fundamental constitution, and are not made for achieving such a goal.

Taras Bulba
Friday, November 28th, 2003, 06:34 AM
Since there are no dogmas in ancient Paganisms, there is no problem of agreement in what concerns theology.

And therefore you don't believe in anything! Yeah nice defense for heathenism!

Taras Bulba
Friday, November 28th, 2003, 07:58 AM
It's been a few days, so I'll take a crack at your arguments Stribog.



The 'learned men' were of the Church only because the Church denied education to the masses, fearful they would become too powerful and politically viable. Being a 'learned man' in the Middle Ages usually just meant being able to read and write and speak Latin; true intellectuals were persecuted by the Church.

Yeah and name one civilization during this time that had high literacy rates among the masses? None. So your argument is just knee-jerking replies.

If the Church was so much against intellectual learning, why was the Church so influential in the establishment of great universities throughout Europe; like ones in Bologna, Paris, Oxford, and Cambridge,Palencia, Naples, Salamanca, Seville, and Siena, Rome, Pisa, Ferrara, Toulouse, Valladolid, Heidelberg, Cologne, Erfurt, Coimbra, florence, Prague, Vienna, Cracow, Alcalá, Upsala, Louvain, Leipzig, Rostock, Tübingen, and many others. Yes the Church was so dead-set against intellectual learning!



The real fact is that Christianity brought on the Dark Ages, and anyone who examine history objectively will realize this.

Oh really? I do believe the Roman system broke down many times and anarchy and civil war raged throughout the Empire several times in its history. Many times even before the birth of Christ. So if we view history objectively(which you refuse to do and simply resort to childish knee-jerk comments) one can see that Christianity did not bring on the Dark Ages but as St. Augustine argued, Rome brought it on itself.




Galileo and Copernicus were NOT embraced by the Church. Copernicus' theories directly contradicted the Bible and were rejected a priori.

You're ignorant! Both Galileo and Copernicus were embraced by the Church leadership and wished their views to be advanced. However, the Church does not give offical support to theories that have no proof to back its claims. Much of what Galileo and Copernicus advocated could not be proven with the scientific equiptment of the age, so the Church said that Galileo and Copernicus could teach their views as theories and not facts. Copernicus was also a priest I hope you know. And Galileo always insisted that he was a devout Catholic and that his views did not contradict scriptures. It should also be noted that Galileo and Copernicus were opposed as much if not more by their fellow scientists and the theologians that condemned Galileo based their judgements as much on current scientific theories of the age as they did on scriptures. And you could clearly could've found this out by reading any decent book on Galileo and/or Copernicus. But instead, you resort to your typical knee-jerk comments.



Christianity forbade biological experiments: dissection, pathology, fertilization experiments, etc. This is why the Arab world surpasses Europe in medicine for centuries: it did not have prohibitions against dissection and anatomical studies.

This is nonsense and you know it! Obviously you never heard of the hospitals that St. Basilius in Caesarea established in 370. The hospitals of the Roman Lady Fabiola in Rome and Ostia, established in 400. Then there was the "Physica", a description of drugs from the three kingdoms of nature, written by St. Hildegarde (1099-1179), abbess of a monastery near Bingen-on-the-Rhine. The curative properties of minerals are described by Marbodus of Angers, Bishop of Rennes (d. 1123), in his "Lapidarius". Then there was the work of the Dominican monk Albertus Magnus. Then there were the Monks who did medical work and study during the Black Plague. I could go on and on and on.



I won't even bring up Darwinism since you probably don't accept that either.

I'm not a Protestant you fool! If you want to know my views on Darwinism, read this http://www.fatheralexander.org/booklets/english/evolution_kuraev.htm


Orthodoxy has neither a textual nor a doctrinal basis to reject evolutionism. Neither does it make sense for Orthodox Christians to indulge the current fashion of irrationality (since any irrationality, in the end, will favor occultism and will work against the Church). Before beginning, it should be said that it is more a novelty than a tradition among the Orthodox to disclaim evolution.

First of all, according to the views of the theologians of the very traditionalist Russian Church Abroad, "the Days of creation should be understood not literally ("For a thousand years in Thine eyes, O Lord, are but as yesterday that is past, and as a watch in the night.") but as periods!"

Secondly, the idea of evolution, given its separation from its atheist interpretation, is discussed quite positively in works by Orthodox authors. Prof. Ivan M. Andreev, having rejected the idea that man evolved from monkey, says: "In everything else, Darwinism does not contradict the biblical teaching on the creation of living things because evolution does not address the question of who created the first animals."


Read the rest if you wish! Once again you resort to childish knee-jerk replies without any factual basis or understanding of Christian theology.


Christianity caused every unexplained occurrence to be attributed to wizardry and witchcraft, and who knows how many people were burnt as wizards or witches?

According to historian Henry Kamen(an atheist) only 4 people were ever burned at the stake per year over a 300 year period. The Inquisition had the lowest execution rate of any court in all of Europe. Most people found guilty by the Inquisition were usually placed under house arrest or at most given 3 or 4 month jail sentences; often with early releases.




Thomas Aquinas was pathetic as a philosopher, and you know it. He didn't contribute to the Renaissance one bit.

Again with your pathetic childish knee-jerk replies. I personally couldn't care what your opinion of St. Thomas Aquinas. Judging from the rest of this tripe you typed you're not in any position to make any judgements on the man! Almost every expert on philosophy acknowledge Aquinas as a geniune and talented philosopher who helped revived intellectual discourse in Europe that would later bloom during the Renaisance.



Tell me what advances were made by your pious friends between 400 AD and 1500 AD?

Well lets see, the Church kept alive the old Greek and Latin languages(which were/are used in its religious services) which of course would allow scholars to be able to read ancient Greek and Latin texts later down the road. Of course many of these ancient Greek and Latin texts were preserved and stored at the Vatican Library, which by 1455 contained 824 Latin and 352 Greek manuscripts.

Between the years 1400 and 1506 alone, some twenty-eight charters granted by the popes to as many universities; which of course served as future centers of learning in Europe during the Renaisance. In fact many of Europe's major centers of learning were established and supported by the Church.

Do you have anything besides knee-jerk remarks to give?

Tautalos
Friday, November 28th, 2003, 12:29 PM
And therefore you don't believe in anything! Yeah nice defense for heathenism!


Who said I don't believe in anything?
What I said is that, since there are no dogmas, and what really matter is the worship of the Deities, one may say that, in a general way, all the theological conceptions are compatible with all the pagan religions.

Taras Bulba
Friday, November 28th, 2003, 08:31 PM
Who said I don't believe in anything?
What I said is that, since there are no dogmas, and what really matter is the worship of the Deities, one may say that, in a general way, all the theological conceptions are compatible with all the pagan religions.

Yes, so you believe in a unitarian type religion; which in reality is one that doesn't believe in anything because it believes in everything. Truth is either exclusive or else it isn't true! That is not to say that truth cannot be explained in different ways; but ultimately the main message is the same.

Tautalos
Tuesday, December 2nd, 2003, 12:22 PM
Yes, so you believe in a unitarian type religion

Wrong. I believe in the diversity of religions. Contrary to what you think, a religion is not necessarily a doctrine. A religion is a conexion to sacred powers.




Truth is either exclusive or else it isn't true!

Yet, there many truths, regarding different aspects of reality.




That is not to say that truth cannot be explained in different ways; but ultimately the main message is the same.

But it can be expressed in different ways.

Taras Bulba
Tuesday, December 2nd, 2003, 01:45 PM
But it can be expressed in different ways.

Thats basically what I said!

Sigrun Christianson
Tuesday, December 2nd, 2003, 02:23 PM
I don't consider things like the Book of Kells to be landmark works of European culture. Most historians I've seen don't argue this, except for incredibly biased Irish ones who search desperately for any real contribution Ireland has made intellectually.How may historians have you polled, Stríbog? If you don't recognize the value of the Book of Kells, well, that speaks more of your deficiencies rather than any devaluation of the book. The Book of Kells is an important work of European art.

This must be where the "Stríbog is bashing Irishmen!" thing came from? You will be hard pressed to objectively define what is and is not an intellectual contribution. I don't remember voting to make you the final arbitor of what constitutes intellectual contribution. Again, it's your deficiency, not Ireland's.


The real fact is that Christianity brought on the Dark Ages, and anyone who examine history objectively will realize this.LOL - I really hope you don't consider yourself to be an authority on historical objectivity? ;)

I agree with you, though.


I understand and approve of wanting to preserve them as ancestral symbols for posterity's sake, but trying to keep them around as a legitimate religion is frankly asinine.That's an asinine thing to say. There isn't a single substantial reason not to keep it around as legitimate religion. Unlike the Judeo-Christian religions, this one is healthy for our people and promotes racial preservation and affection. If for that reason only, it's worth it to keep it around, as you say.

Your objection seems to be towards religion in general and that's fine with me, but your dive into humanist thought has left you a little short-sighted. I'd like to see what you have to say in about ten years.


Most pagans and heathens today aren't even racialist; they are fat 30-something guys who live in their parents' basement, read Lord of the Rings books and play Dungeons and Dragons.You paint a very humorous & convenient picture, but it's simply not true. You either know no Pagans or only a very few so your opinions about them can hardly be seen as credible.

WarMaiden
Thursday, April 8th, 2004, 01:32 AM
http://www.odinic-rite.org/

Ewergrin
Thursday, April 8th, 2004, 02:03 AM
Awesome site and thanks so much for losting the link to it. :)