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visigodo
Saturday, July 1st, 2006, 03:52 PM
I was checking at my library to see what material had about the anthropology of the Breton people because in Stirpes Youenn started a thead about that and without a doubt the best work is: "Armoricains et Bretons. Etude anthropologique" by Giot P.

There is also some good information in the chapter "Frankreich" in "Rassengeschichte der Menschheit" -2. Lieferung- in the work "Anthropologie de la population française" by Henri V. Vallois and in "Les races de l'Europe" by Marc-R. Sauter.

I have translated from Sauter the following text that hope can be interesting but if somebody really want to know well the racial composition of the Breton people the best is to find Giot's work. Here we go:


The "noyan breton". - If the Breton group must has kept, because his geographical situation (Finish terrae, Finistère) his language, culture and his pshicological particularities that the historians explains, that originality doesn't transpose itself, as with the Basques, in the anthropological domain. A recent survey, due to the laudable activity of P.R. Giot (1951), rejuvenates the data that we have on the Breton population and permits to bring some retouchings to the picture brushed by Vallois. We will pull some numbers of it. It is about a few 5.700 draftees of the departments of Finistère, Morbihan and the Côtes-du-Nord, examined in 1946-1947.

The average cephalic index of the Bretons is of 82; the Brachycephaly moderate of the" Breton core" is confirmed therefore. It is the department of Finistère that is the less brachycephalic (81,4), Morbihan giving a cephalic index of 82,9 (Côtes-du-Nord, 82,3).

The group of the cantons where the size is also the lowest deal the indication of the more brachycephalyc (85,7), while the mesocephale index is more pronounced (79,1) at Brest. One can see how coincide on the whole the more brachycephalics with those with small sizes and the more mesocephalics with the highest sizes. Finistère is especially rich in cantons where the averages prove the existence of a strong core of high stature (168-169) with less cephalic index (79-81) (III card).

http://img261.imageshack.us/img261/4725/bretagne0042qv.th.jpg (http://img261.imageshack.us/my.php?image=bretagne0042qv.jpg)

A technical imperfection that the author signals himself had the effect to give, about the facial shape of the Bretons, an improper idea; The index is medium (84), mesoprosope, to the limit of the euryprosope, is notoriously too low. The Bretons are certainly meso to leptoprosopes. The nose is leptorrine.

Giot raised the degree of pigmentation of his draftees summarily. On the whole set, it is the category of light eyes, medium pigmented hair (21,5%) that comes in head, the complex eyes and dark hair is after with 19,5% .

Of the first category, said Giot,: "However this complex group of brown hair and blue eyes (green or gray) is one of the characteristics of Brittany… It is… an autonomous genetic unit… " He thinks that " it is the result of one process of depigmentation, by way of mutation, that happen with the brachycephals in this Breton region as we must think that we are dealing with the most northern regions that reached the western Alpines".

Trying to classify the Bretons in the classic racial settings, Giot said: "The anthropology of Brittany is always dominated by the opposition between a High Brittany, in majority populated of alpine brachycephals, with large face and with relatively small stature, and a Low Brittany (no traced precisely on the linguistic limits, surely), especially populated by the mesocephalics men on the coasts, with narrow face and with size nearly tall.

But in the inside these types we can see a lot of transitions between the true Atlanto-Mediterranean and the Alpine ". The true Mediterranean are rare. The Nordic element is also weak; Vallois give a bit importance to the Nordic component than doesn't make it Giot ".

It is necessary to speak shortly about a local, near to the alpine race, who had the grant to excite the imaginations. It is about the Bigoudenns (inhabitants of Pont-L'Abbé, small port to the south of Quimper, in Finistère).

Some people believe - and this belief is tenacious - a Mongolian origin to those Bretons, on the faith of their particular facies; as this typical face is actually only present at the women, it is a lot simpler to assign it, as the more serious anthropologists say (Vallois, Giot), the hairdressing (drawn behind) and to the “Coiffé à bandeau” gives to the cheekbones an aspect recalling the one of the Mongols.

Giot, without believing in an Asian racial feature, doesn't exclude however "something" of genetic origin, a "localized variation, whose conservation can be encouraged by some prejudices that the relations and the miscellanies of the Bigoudenns would have slowed down with their neighbours ". (1949).

We would have there, according to him, something to bring closer to another character, pathological one, that is especially revealed at the Bigoudenn women: the congenital dislocation of the hip”.

Agrippa
Saturday, July 1st, 2006, 05:07 PM
My theory of Alpinisation and the Bretons as an example:

In fact nobody ate fish except friday until the thirties. Traditional Breton kitchen is very simple and not really gastronomical : pig especially bacon, soups, pan cakes, pastry (milk and eggs). It's tourism which brings the consumption of seafood, for a long time fishing was mainly an export activity.

Why this question ?

Because my theory is that Alpinisation is the result of unfavourable living conditions, and adaptation to deficiency. Now the more progressive types survived usually much better along large rivers, coastal areas and in herders, whereas sedentary farmers seem to have, especially if hunger, plagues, stable conditions and social suppression dominated, to begin to degenerate-reduce to a certain degree, at least stopping progressive developments and losing physical potential and the versatile character classic Europids had like through Alpinisation and Baltisation.

An important reason beside others seem to have been, like suggested, malnutrition, which hit progressive variants which being high-investment individuals, much harder than reduced ones. Especially the lack of proteins, vitamins and mineral nutrients, with one of the most important being iodine. Iodine deficiency, struma/goitre and Cretinism were particularly common in isolated, poor farmer areas in the Alps, very common in parts of Switzerland f.e., especially those in which Alpinisation was very strong.
So I just wondered, because Bretons seem to have a visible and relatively strong tendency for Alpinisation, if they used to eat a lot of fish and seafood, probably meat in general too, which would have been a contradiction for my theory. But this seems to be apparantly not the case. With more meat, but fish and seafood in particular, they could have kept a higher standard, Alpinisation would have been weakened after my theory, but if there nutrition was mostly based on grains and potatatos and limited access to meat, finally proteins, vitamins and mineral nutrients, while at the same time living as typical sedentary farmers with all the typical influences, including social negative selection and hunger and diseases especially during the "Little Ice Age", they just fit into the picture of Alpinisation/reduction/pyknomorphisation in Europe and beyond...

If overstretching the argument, one could say that most Atlanto-Nordid and Cromagnoid variants being the few survivors of the unfavourable conditions in the common people and in the coastal people-fishermen and social elite with tradition in particular.

Seafood is brainfood and together with fish an excellent base in theory, especially if combined with protein rich animal products and vegetables. A nourishment based mainly on grains and potatoes seem to have obvious negative effects in Europe and beyond. F.e. poor Maya farmers after the collapse of their civilisation were totally infantile and reduced, which being not comparable with normal Alpinids though, being much more extreme in every respect.

Recently I read articles and books about Anatolia and Western Iran, its really interesting to see how different the independent herder people were in comparison to the poor sedentary farmers in the past there...

Human competition (individually and group), diseases, nutrition and subsistence pattern, as well as the associated factors and social systems being the main factors for human evolution since the Neolithicum, climatic factors being rather secondary...

To make the picture complete, one would have just to know whether struma/goiter were more common there as well...


"The anthropology of Brittany is always dominated by the opposition between a High Brittany, in majority populated of alpine brachycephals, with large face and with relatively small stature, and a Low Brittany (no traced precisely on the linguistic limits, surely), especially populated by the mesocephalics men on the coasts, with narrow face and with size nearly tall.

This seems to support my thesis again, with the coastal people being more Nordid-Atlantomediterranid, the further away one comes, the stronger the Alpinisation was. However, one has to consider migrations and patterns of settling unrelated to selective pressures, but the "blond Alpine" category makes even more sense if going after that, because even light variants became mixed and finally Alpinised under the conditions described above. Alpinids practically never migrated or conquered lands as a whole, but rather infiltreated areas, that way they always mixed and only the important set of traits for Alpinisation survived, whereas some peculiarities of the most typical Westalpinids practically disappeared. A group of people came or came up by chance which had Alpinoid traits, they mixed with the others and over time the more important traits of the Alpinoid combination won by a victory of births for various reasons under rather unfavourable living conditions, one sided social structures and the absense of positive selective pressure for higher and more versatile physical performance. Alpinids are not just a climatic adaptation like f.e. Nordid, Dalofaelid or Mediterranid, but more (others being socially selected too obviously) like the others the result of a process inside of a diversified and socially stratified population. Thats another reason why one can find almost exclusively Nordid or Mediterranid areas, but hardly something bigger than a village or smaller isolated area which is just Alpinid.

visigodo
Saturday, July 1st, 2006, 05:46 PM
This seems to support my thesis again, with the coastal people being more Nordid-Atlantomediterranid, the further away one comes, the stronger the Alpinisation was. However, one has to consider migrations and patterns of settling unrelated to selective pressures, but the "blond Alpine" category makes even more sense if going after that, because even light variants became mixed and finally Alpinised under the conditions described above. Alpinids practically never migrated or conquered lands as a whole, but rather infiltreated areas, that way they always mixed and only the important set of traits for Alpinisation survived, whereas some peculiarities of the most typical Westalpinids practically disappeared. A group of people came or came up by chance which had Alpinoid traits, they mixed with the others and over time the more important traits of the Alpinoid combination won by a victory of births for various reasons under rather unfavourable living conditions, one sided social structures and the absense of positive selective pressure for higher and more versatile physical performance. Alpinids are not just a climatic adaptation like f.e. Nordid, Dalofaelid or Mediterranid, but more (others being socially selected too obviously) like the others the result of a process inside of a diversified and socially stratified population. Thats another reason why one can find almost exclusively Nordid or Mediterranid areas, but hardly something bigger than a village or smaller isolated area which is just Alpinid.


I was thinking about your theory also, curiously Hoyos Sainz on having studied the racial composition of Galice observes also the same phenomenon in which the Nordid typology tends to prevail on the coasts and the Alpine one in interior zones.

He wrote:

"There are in Galice two preponderant racial types; one supposed Celtic or racially Alpine, which necessarily in the Peninsula is connected with the so called Cantabrian area; general basic type that is domineering the region in the province of Lugo, and the whole properly Cantabrian coast of la Coruña, and persisting in evident majority, in the high lands, up to Orense and Pontevedra. He is the Galician with round head and smoothed behind, of broad face, fundamentally in the cheekbones, but with narrow and thin nose, which establishes cranial and facial disharmony; man and woman they have massive complexion, wide thoracic perimeter and good corporal weight.

In contrast with the Alpine type it is possible to see clearly, and is easily separable, for the indexes and for the module or size of the head, verifying this difference for the modular relations and confirmed at the first works I have made another racial type of Galice, the second type, leptorrine, dolichocephalic, with narrow and thin nose, thin and tall, rosy and fair, especially in the beard, light eyes, greenish very common, eyes ripped in the external edge; type that abounds in all the coastal villas of the Atlantic littoral, and dominates in the province of Pontevedra, and even it continues till Orense, though this province is not racially so clear as the other three, undoubtedly because intrusions or contacts that already we have indicated that arrive from the Castilians lands (Mediterranean influences)".

http://www.map-of-spain.co.uk/maps-of-spain/galicia/01-Galicia-road-pol-400.gif

visigodo
Sunday, July 2nd, 2006, 05:01 PM
I realize that the files about Brittany do not work properly so I add again.

visigodo
Sunday, July 2nd, 2006, 05:10 PM
The map about Brittany (stature and cephalic index) and text about Nordid influences. In the text there is a map that shows the areas "plus nordiques". When lighter is the color in the map the more Nordid is the area. That map confirm Agrippa's theory again.

Youenn
Tuesday, July 11th, 2006, 03:29 PM
I recopy my posts from Stirpes (http://forum.stirpes.net/showthread.php?p=80671#post80671) :

When I first joined this forum I had no prior knowledge of anthropology, but I was interested in getting more information about the predominant types among Breton people.

On most of the old Map that I looked into, Bretons were depicted as belonging mostly to the Alpinid type. But, as I explained in a previous post, I found very strange that ALL Bretons would be so different from their close relatives in the British Isles.

Moreover, almost none of the Bretons I asked to be classified where seen as being fully or partially Alpinid (except a specific post on Lappoids). For this reason I decided to create a thread in order to get a better picture, from looking at a wide range of celebrities (politicians, musicians, actors etc.) as well as unknown Bretons.

Despite what I heard, phenotypes encountered in Brittany are quite varied depending on location, although the country is overall rather modest in size. I live on the central bit of the south cost (lower Gwened-West of Morbihan), and there I have met with many Atlanto-mediterraneans/Atlantids/North Atlantids and Cromagnid (Buenn)+ Borreby types.

There are certainly some Alpinids, but they seem confined to the centre of Brittany. I know that Madison Grant is not considered to be a very reliable source, but he came to the same conclusion.

I also know that the French anthropologist Paul Broca, who performed extensive measurements of the population in the mid 19th century, established a clear distinction between tall and fair people on the coast and the stocky built brunets living inland. There are also some obvious West/East differences: people in the West tend to be fairer than in the East.

Please find below a brief description of the history of people who lived in Brittany:

- Pre-Indo-European populations. There are some speculations about possibily two populations a small one and a taller one.

- Second wave of Celts, then called Armoricans. They may have been Alpinid , and this may be the reason why French anthropologists have tried to label us "Alpinids".

- Third population of British Celts. Although they settled further East (in what is now Normandy and other parts of Western France) dense settlements did not go further east than Nantes and Rennes

- Fourth population: Northmen, who established themselves on the coasts. According to the study of "Viking genes" they may have been as numerous as in Wales. Populations of Dol or of the Groix Island may still be largely of this stock.

- From then until the 1960s Brittany's population remain almost untouched. We should only notice a limited number of people from the rest of the "hexagon" and beyond (French, Flemish from France or Belgium, Occitans, Germans from Germany or France)

- Negligible extra European influx until now. The very few Jews were expelled in the 13th century , and even today do not represent a distinct community. For example in Morbihan, there were 23 Jews in 1872 out of a population of about 490 352.

That's it for now, later I will add a post on Bretons from the different provinces (Broioù).

Youenn
Tuesday, July 11th, 2006, 03:29 PM
Actors :

Dominique Lavanant

Hélène De Fougerolles

Hery Sylvette (Miou Miou)

Samuel Le Bihan

Vanel

Youenn
Tuesday, July 11th, 2006, 03:32 PM
Contractor


Jean Jacques Henaff
http://img452.imageshack.us/img452/7057/jeanjacqueshenaff12ns.jpg

Loïk Le Floch-Prigent
http://img366.imageshack.us/img366/9511/lokleflochprigent14wd.jpghttp://img452.imageshack.us/img452/2742/lokleflochprigent20qu.jpg

Patrick Le Lay
http://img58.imageshack.us/img58/8269/patricklelay9qf.jpg

http://forum.stirpes.net/showpost.ph...04&postcount=1 (http://forum.stirpes.net/showpost.php?p=62004&postcount=1)

Michel Edouard Leclerc
http://www.bdangouleme.com/contenus/visuels/0fa8cb19303252090ba3f37f7007b33e-col_droite.jpghttp://eur.news1.yimg.com/eur.yimg.com/xp/reuters_molt/3255232863.jpg
(http://forum.stirpes.net/showpost.php?p=62004&postcount=1)

Youenn
Tuesday, July 11th, 2006, 03:34 PM
Politicians

Christian Guyonvarc'h
http://img354.imageshack.us/img354/8839/h19iw1.jpghttp://img354.imageshack.us/img354/4729/h8hl.jpg

Christian Troadec
http://img455.imageshack.us/img455/4571/christiantroadec12wz.jpghttp://img66.imageshack.us/img66/2788/christiantroadec0fl.jpg

Ar Pen :
http://img238.imageshack.us/img238/3662/jeanmarielepen14vp.jpg
http://img455.imageshack.us/img455/4896/jeanmarielepen20xd.jpg

Jean Pierre Thomin
http://img382.imageshack.us/img382/5307/jeanpierrethomin10cp.jpghttp://img382.imageshack.us/img382/7185/jeanpierrethomin24wp.jpg

Jean Yves Cozan
http://img382.imageshack.us/img382/917/jeanyvescozan15qu.jpghttp://img525.imageshack.us/img525/91/jeanyvescozan24xs.jpg

Lionel Divard
http://img525.imageshack.us/img525/3736/lioneldivard6ld.jpg

Louis Le Pensec
http://img466.imageshack.us/img466/3430/louislepensec3cs.jpg

Marine Ar Pen
http://img466.imageshack.us/img466/7905/marinelepen15gl.jpghttp://img466.imageshack.us/img466/8947/marinelepen20jy.jpg

Patrick Mareschal
http://img488.imageshack.us/img488/6306/patrickmareschal15ay.jpghttp://img488.imageshack.us/img488/5180/patrickmareschal28um.jpg

Yves Bourges
http://img369.imageshack.us/img369/4650/yvesbourges5ov.jpg

Agrippa
Tuesday, July 11th, 2006, 04:16 PM
Hery Sylvette (Miou Miou)

She seems to be to be an example of a pred. Alpinid woman in showbiz (at least face-head), really didnt thought about her before.

Of the politicians f.e. Françoise Gatel and Christian Menard
look very Apinid. Overall they seem to be quite mixed with a strong Atlantomediterranid and signicant Gracilmediterranid, Nordid, Cromagnid and Dinaroid component. Like Visigodo showed too, its rather about certain areas, mainly those further away from the coast, which are clearly predominantely Alpinid, though the Alpinid element should be present everywere in different portions in Brittany and this images might be, to a certain degree, a social selection too.

This picture shows a group of still rather harmonious but typically pred. Alpinid girls:
http://img57.imageshack.us/img57/623/bretons085jn.jpg

Youenn
Tuesday, July 11th, 2006, 05:24 PM
Another typical Bretons :

Alain Barrière (Singer) :

http://img235.imageshack.us/img235/5351/alainbarrire19in.jpghttp://img428.imageshack.us/img428/6449/alainbarrire25wq.jpg


Bernard Hinault (Cyclist) :

http://img418.imageshack.us/img418/4807/bernardhinault21jb.jpghttp://img414.imageshack.us/img414/1125/bernardhinault13nd.jpg


Jean Loup Chrétien (Spationaut) :

http://img270.imageshack.us/img270/1253/jeanloupchrtien11jj.jpg