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View Full Version : Are the Bavarians Germanic in terms of genetic heritage?



Prodigal Son
Monday, November 17th, 2003, 06:43 PM
Vote.

cosmocreator
Monday, November 17th, 2003, 09:21 PM
Who the hell dared to vote with no? :cuss

And what a stupid question - there is no "germanic" gene.

qball
Monday, November 17th, 2003, 10:01 PM
actually bavarians are a celtic germanic mix...something to be proud of,the celts were similiar to the germanic race.i really dont understand what is the point of russian patriot ,this guy is not even living in russia and fled from the slavic mess.maybe you should crawl back to study madison grants pseudo alpine propaganda stuff from ww1 or reading about the pseudo nordic russians who absorbed lots of different ethnic people. most russians have huge wide faces and ugly,coarse features...alot of them are blond thats true but theiy look for western europeans just like ugly east alpines...

cosmocreator
Monday, November 17th, 2003, 10:08 PM
actually bavarians are a celtic germanic mix...something to be proud of,the celts were similiar to the germanic race.i really dont understand what is the point of russian patriot ,this guy is not even living in russia and fled from the slavic mess.maybe you should crawl back to study madison grants pseudo alpine propaganda stuff from ww1 or reading about the pseudo nordic russians who absorbed lots of different ethnic people. most russians have huge wide faces and ugly,coarse features...alot of them are blond thats true but theiy look for western europeans just like ugly east alpines...


You've made some insulting remarks there to Russians and east alpines. I've seen your photo and you look Alpine yourself.

The Blond Beast
Monday, November 17th, 2003, 11:15 PM
actually bavarians are a celtic germanic mix...something to be proud of,the celts were similiar to the germanic race.i really dont understand what is the point of russian patriot ,this guy is not even living in russia and fled from the slavic mess.maybe you should crawl back to study madison grants pseudo alpine propaganda stuff from ww1 or reading about the pseudo nordic russians who absorbed lots of different ethnic people. most russians have huge wide faces and ugly,coarse features...alot of them are blond thats true but theiy look for western europeans just like ugly east alpines...

Well ... that was almost a coherent thought.

Loki
Tuesday, November 18th, 2003, 12:07 AM
Who the hell dared to vote with no? :cuss

And what a stupid question - there is no "germanic" gene.

Of course, true. There is no Germanic gene. "Germanic" is a cultural and historical concept, although expressed mainly in Nordish racial types. Bavarians are of course Germanic. No question about that. Who cares if they have Alpinid strains? The idea that all "true" Germanics were 100% "Hallstatt Nordic" is ridiculous anyway, and far from the truth.

+Suomut+
Tuesday, November 18th, 2003, 01:43 AM
Ja! :)

Nordgau
Tuesday, November 18th, 2003, 07:47 AM
Seufz, ja. Bavaria is racially a country where Dinarid, Nordid and Alpinid race, in its ethnical origins, the glorious German tribe of the Baiern is a composition of the culturally Romanized Celtish population and then the Germanic Baiuvarii and other Germanic tribal elements who settled there in the time of the Völkerwanderung and Germanicized the country.

Okay, now open the next poll, so that we get through all that: the Swabians also have partly Celtic blood in them, and in some west German areas (Mosel valley), there is a certain old Mediterranean element. :D

Stríbog
Tuesday, November 18th, 2003, 09:16 AM
Who the hell dared to vote with no? :cuss

And what a stupid question - there is no "germanic" gene.

Let me get this straight: you are Dinaric, but you are a Nordicist?

Mac Seafraidh
Tuesday, November 18th, 2003, 11:26 AM
Well there are Germanic Germans living in Bayern, but I do not know the percent of them that live there. I imagine a lot of germans in nord-bayern could have a population of partial germanic descent. I used to know a german from bayern that was blond/blue, but also had a little swedish blood.

Nordgau
Tuesday, November 18th, 2003, 12:32 PM
The Germanic and the Celto-Romance (as the population of Rhaetia before the Völkerwanderung is usually called by modern historians) genetic hereditary have been breeding together there for 1,500 years now. Even if some persons strike in their phenotype to the Nordid or a more Nordid type and others to a more non-Nordid, and even if certain areas were more touched by the Germanic settlement than others and have a relative higher dominance of ancient Germanic hereditary, it is impossible to draw a line between Bavarians "of non-Germanic ancestry" and such of "Germanic". The line goes between every single man himself and no one's genetic hereditary is purely Germanic or purely non-Germanic. You'll also find all kind of mixing types between the races and Nordid element visible in various forms of admixture among single persons.

With regard to Northern Bavaria: The Main valley is supposedly the most Nordid part of the Bavarian state. But the area of northern Bayern is Franconia, and the Franconians aren't Baiern in "tribal"-ethnical and lingual-dialectal aspects.

Prodigal Son
Tuesday, November 18th, 2003, 03:48 PM
Who the hell dared to vote with no? :cuss

And what a stupid question - there is no "germanic" gene.

Certain genes can be traced back to the original Germanic-speakers of antiquity.

Prodigal Son
Tuesday, November 18th, 2003, 04:11 PM
actually bavarians are a celtic germanic mix...something to be proud of,the celts were similiar to the germanic race.

Are you implying that Bavarians are predominantly Nordid?


i really dont understand what is the point of russian patriot ,this guy is not even living in russia and fled from the slavic mess.

1. You don't know where I live.

2. Where I live is none of your business.


maybe you should crawl back to study madison grants pseudo alpine propaganda stuff from ww1 or reading about the pseudo nordic russians who absorbed lots of different ethnic people.

Are you high or just retarded?


most russians have huge wide faces

No.


and ugly,coarse features..

You must be thinking of your mother. :)


alot of them are blond thats true but theiy look for western europeans just like ugly east alpines...

East-Alpine types are confined to the Ukraine.

cosmocreator
Tuesday, November 18th, 2003, 06:13 PM
Certain genes can be traced back to the original Germanic-speakers of antiquity.

And? That is totaly irrelevant for me. If we start selecting who is German, according to ancient genes, then that would be the end of our nation. Frankly, I'm getting sick and tired of these genetic materialist, who run around with rulers and "Tastercircle" to measure one skull, the length of ones fingers, cheeckbones ect. and then come to the conclusion, that this person belongs to this or that group of a certain subrace. A hallstatt nordic can be just as much of a treacherous, hedonistic asshole as a dinaric, med, alpine, faelish or whatever else person. Nationalism and love to ones country is not a beautycontest.
I once met a guy at a nationalist camp. He was from Nürnberg, fat, and rather "unatractive". After walking a distance, he would start to gasp and caugh, and sweat would run down his face. Watching him eat wasn't a very pleasent sight either. But that I have learned, is secondary. I know that he writes today for nationalist magazines about Ideology and Germanic-Mytholgy and the origins of our people. He is a dedicated worker for our cause and decent German. Thats all that matter.

At the same camp there was also this youngster from Hamburg. He was truly the ideal of what one woulld consider THE GERMAN. Absolutely nordic, blond, blue eyes, athletic, fast - a Propagandaposter-boy for Himmlers SS. All the race-fanatics there asked him to pose for a picture. Well, I got to know him better and it eventually turned out he was a narcist kid, superficial, childish and not at all interested in ideology. If you showed him some NS literature, he was always disapointed that there were so little pictures in it. He was more concerned if his uniform shirt sits right and emphasizes his shoulders and that his buckle was shiny, than he would be interested in anything which would might strain his brain.
So if one has to chose between the two exmaples, who is a more productive and dedicated fighter in our struggle for national resurection, then it is definately the "fat" one. He can lose weight and go on a diet, the other one has a flawed character and is unreliable. That you can't fix.

I read my Günther and Clauß, Hoffmann, Fisher ect. and thats it. It's not a topic I want to ride to death, because it gets boring.
I don't want to catalogize my people constantly. A person can be attractive and charming, or repulsive regardless which subrace he/she belongs to. You can not measure "Germaness". You either are or you are not German. And I'm talking about REAL Germans, and not "Bundesbürger" Lemmings.

FadeTheButcher
Sunday, November 23rd, 2003, 07:22 AM
Archeology and the Bavarian Genesis

When the Merovingian Frankish forces expanded Eastward, an atypical direction of movement during these relocations of peoples, to incorporate all of the Alps in the Merovingian realm, from where they intervened in the Ostrogothic war with the Byzantines, they had already incorporated on their Northern flank, in Raetia II and in Noricum, a new people, the Bayuvarians. These Bavarians were not an old people but an ethnic conglomerate of Germanic tribal splinter groups, which from mid-fifth century, around 476, onward, had coalesced between the Danube and the Alps from the rivers Lech/Iller in the West to the river Enns in the East. Their presence is indicated in the military structures and fortifications of the Roman limes auxiliaries and is supported in the mixed Roman and Germanic equipment inventories of the adjoining cemeteries throughout this area. These inventories of personal ornaments and ceramics date into the fifth century and reveal that the troops stationed in the frontier fortifications belonged to Elbian and Bohemian tribes as well as to those originating further East, interspersed with an occasional Frank. The inventories also reflect the presence of some nobles and of women. These inventories, however, are not reflected further inland. The archeological evidence indicates further, that since the third century a nameless Elbian Germanic group had moved into Bohemia characterized by a particular pottery style, named after the type station Prestovice, as well as by cremation burials, and that a century later the pottery identifying this group was established along the Northern bank of the Danube from the river Lech to Soviodurum/Straubing, where the cemetery Friedenhain serves as type station for the pottery, and also North of the Raetian limes. During the fifth century the Bohemian cemeteries containing the Elbian pottery had broken off, indicating that the population using the cemeteries had left the area for a new location to the West. From this new area warriors were recruited for the Roman auxiliaries. In Roman service they gave up cremation in favor of inhumation, a switch which was characteristic for all Germanic forces entering Roman service. The finds are evidence that the Roman frontier was still effective during the fifth century, though, in a process which had begun centuries earlier, the defenders, semi-free laeti, resembled para-military forces whose duties combined military and agricultural service, probably in a federated arrangement, out of which evolved a military peasantry. In time, as the garrisons decreased in size, the civilians moved into the forts, abandoning all lands but the villages and fields and pastures which supported the fort, were guarded by it and provided its modest supplies. In some instances, as at Soviodurum/Straubing, their ceremonies show continues use into the seventh century. South of Straubing such a cemetery developed into the largest Bajuvarian row-grave field.

The composition of the grave inventories showed that the objects and ornaments of the deceased men and women reflected a multicultural stylistic assembly. The great number of burials in these grave fields, at Altenerding near Munich than 2,000, and the continuity of the occupation over two centuries, beginning in the last decades of the fifth century, indicates that these areas were not devoid of inhabitants, that these varied Germanic populations had become sedentary in the provinces and that a population synthesis was taking place. That Roman and Germanic populations shared the land is indicated by the continuity of Roman pottery traditions into the seventh century. The superiority of Roman wheel thrown pottery slowly displaced the Elbian hand made, technically inferior, Friedenhain/Prestovice pottery of the Germanic troops and farmers. Towards the end of the Roman period Thuringian and Alamanic populations were allowed to cross into these provinces as well. A cemetery at Straubing/Sorviodurum with over 800 graves shows inventories of ornaments deriving from the Frankish-Alamanic West, the Thuringian and central German North and the Eastern Danubian, Ostrogothic and Italic South. It points to the wealth and farflung connections of this population. Ten artificially deformed female skulls belong to the earliest period. The grave field was used from c.500 to c.700 and emphasizes the continuity of the population and the gradual transition of the material culture from Roman to Bavarian times. The evolution of the Bavarians took place along the Danube frontier.

Quite evidently a popular “arrival theory” of an ethnically cohesive people cannot be maintained. In time, Alamans, Juthungians, Elbians, Marcomans, Danubian Suebians, Skirians, Rugians, Thuringians especially after 555/56, Langobards and fragments of other Germanic peoples, including Goths, other Easterners and Romans participated in this ethnogensis around a core of people from Bohemia, the “men from Baias”, who also provided the name ‘Bai-waren.’

Roman remnant Populations

The unsettled conditions along the Danube frontier had thinned out the population either through destruction, abduction, or through migration. A prolonged exodus had been in progress for many years. St. Severin, formerly a high ranking civil servant from Italy, was a witness to these developments and the Vita Sancti Severini composed in 511 by Eugrippus, who makes him out to be a saint, not only shows Severin's active religious and political life but comments extensively on the confusing and disorderly events which surrounded him from c.456 to the year of his death in 482. Among the many peoples mentioned in the Vita, the name of the Bavarians is missing. St. Severin had bought the freedom of many Romans, among whom were Celtic Raeti and Vindelici, organizing the import and the distribution of food and clothing among the poor, and helped evacuate people to safer places along the Austrian Danube. In 488 the Roman populations living in the provinces of Raetia and Noricum received final orders from the central authority to leave their homes and estates. The order actually came from Odoaker, who in 476 had stopped paying the border garrisons and in 487 had made war on the Rugians, taking the Royal family captive and executing them, then in 488 he sent his brother Hunwulf to destroy the Rugians on the Danube. After 476 the Rugians had assumed the administration of the Romans who as protectors of supplies sought their own protection from the miltiary Rugians against other Germanic, mainly Alamanic and Thuringian raiders. In part to deprive the Rugians of their provisions Hunwulf order the Romans to vacate the provinces and to return to Italy. Theoderic and his Ostrogoths were approaching Italy and a faction of the Rugians was allied to him. Theoderic used the kinship with the Rugian Royal family to kill Odoakar personally.

Who were these "Romans"? Some of them had originated in Italy. Others were members of the Romanized native, Celtic population. And still others were members of the Germanic border defence forces who at the end of their enlistment had not returned to their areas North of the limes, because they had become alienated from their Germanic heritage and had become Romanized, had founded families, acquired property, practiced a trade and become Christians. These Romans must have learned to deal with the unstable conditions for, and as is so often the case in similar situations, not all the Romans followed the order to withdraw to Italy. This is demonstrated by the continuity of the name of the city of Regensburg/Castra Regina, as well as the uninterrupted use of the Roman cemetary into the early Middle Ages. That poorer sections of the population would stay behind seems natural, but that a small upper stratum of Romans also seems to have stayed behind - the continued use of the villae rusticae - is more suprising but, as in Gaul, is represented, though only thinly, in the military, the Church and the administration and in the larger towns. The transmission of toponyms, terminology for tools and the names of fruit and vegetables over the centuries indicates that communities and populations survived in some fashion.

In general, for a certain period the remnant populations of Romans under Bavarian, Alamanic and even Frankish rule were not on the same full-free footing as their conquerers, but belong to that group of the lesser-free who were subjected to judicial and economic discrimination. Though tributary to the Duke, the upper social strata soon found themselves in his entourage. In the sources the Romans begin to be referred to as Latini. During the seventh and eighth centuries there are references to two sub-groups of Romans: Romani tributales and Roman exercitales, Latini who have to pay taxes and those who have to render military service. Especially around Salzburg, the former were personally free but economically dependent land owners located on ducal lands for which they had to pay tribute. They were eventually absorbed by the free peasantry. The latter, also at Salzburg, began as the miltiary and administrative garrison. This membership preserved them from social discrimination and eventually allowed their social rise. Their language will have continued for centuries as the vernacular in many of the Alpine valleys which harbored Latini and had come under the protection and rule of the Bavarian Dukes. These Roman remnants were never represented by large numbers, so that a comparison with their role in Gaul would not really be fruitful.

When the order for the official withdrawal of Roman forces and civilians came, it was not unexpected and merely underscored the fading of the political and economic strengths of the official administration of the provinces by Rome. Around Regensburg and the Raetian limes, it did not create a deep rupture. In 451 Attila's forces, just as the earlier East-West migration of Quadi/Suebi, Vandals and Alans, must have reached Gaul by a more northernly route. Nor was there a vacuum - the border army seems to have integrated with the population - as life in and around the forts continued and gradually assimilated the new Germanic arrivals. In the area along the Austrian Danube an insular situation had come about as the Roman population has resisted the Germanic arrivals and their own Germanization more forcefully. Upon their withdrawal to Italy in greater numbers, the remaining Roman influence was correspondingly weaker, so that the abrupt changeover was noticeable. The lack of continuity of place names illustrates the weakening of population continuity. However, there are such key indicators as church construction, finds of base metal coins, of late everday Roman objects and pottery which demonstrate that a modfied form of "Roman" life continued for decades.

Around 500, the population fragments to be known as Bavarians were a part of Theoderic's Ostrogothic and mainly defensive Prefecture of Italy and were carried on a list of peoples prepared c.520. They may well have been located by Theoderic along the the Danube as his foederati with their center at Castra Regina/Regensburg, and have consolidated under Theoderic's supervision, for the blending seems to have taken place smoothly in territorial parameters determined by the Northern river frontiers of an Ostrogothic crucible and the tribal dispositions. The prevailing and recent argument is that in accordance with late Roman practices in the Transalpine provinces duces had the miltiary command and that Theoderic, by appointing such a dux, established the Dukedom and named its first Duke. To the North the Thuringian Kingdom provided a vague border. Theoderic's extensive political and familial relationships with the Thuringians to the North do not seem to have suffered from Bavarian interfernece. To the East Theoderic had been named King of the Herulians, Radolf, his son-in-arms and thereby extended his defensive system of alliances to include this people. In 508 the Langobards to their East had put an end to this defensive alliance when they defeated the Herulians and incorporated their lands in Bohemia, Northern Noricum and Pannonia. For Theoderic, the loss of his Herulian allies not only weakened the protective system of alliance but removed the obstacle to Langobardic Westward expansion. Theoderic's own overextended military forces could not provide an adequate defence, so that it would have been in Theoderic's political interests to secure the area between the Alps and the Danube and to convert the power vacuum into a dependable political and economic entity, strong enough to defelct any Langobardic ambitions. The construction during this time of new villages in Bavaria, not based on Roman antecedants, by different ethnic groups - Ostrogoths, Alamans, Thuringians and Langobards - suggests a stabalization and revitalization of the seriously weakened economic and social conditions. The archeological evidence further indicates extensive cultural contacts with the Ostrogoths. Their typical fibulas and belt buckles are found as far North as the Danube throughout Raetia. Ostrogothic skull deformations among the skeletal remains suggest that these were descendants of Ostrogoths who had been associated with the Huns as a tribute people during Attila's reign. The Roman communities in Augusta Vindelicum/Augsburg, Castra Regina/Regensburg, Batavis/Passau, :Lauriacum/Lorch, were not affected by this formation of a new people. From Regensburg the Bavarians incorporated the Northern lands drained by the rivers Naab, Regen, and Altmuhl and bordered by the Bohemian mountains in the East and the Frankonian Jura in the West. The interesting question has been raised, why in view an extensive archeological homogeneity, and in view of their varied ethnic composition these people had not also become Alamans. One reason will derive from the Ostrogothic delimitation within which the Bavarians came into being. The great number of Ostrogothic fibulas would demonstrate the cultural force which the Goths exerted in this area. Cassiodorus may have been the first to mention the Baiuvarii in his history of the Goths, the Origo Gothica, written between c.526 and c.533, because Jordanes does so in his version of that history, the De origine actibusque Getarum of 511. Jordanes, however, applied the knowlege of his own time to a description of tribal locations eighty years earlier. Once again the final name of a people was given to them by others.

Herbert Schutz, The Germanic Realms of Pre-Carolingian Central Europe, 400-750 (Oxford, 2000), pp.281-292

Sigrun Christianson
Saturday, December 6th, 2003, 03:24 AM
Of course they are Germanic! Anyone disagree? Come over so I can smack you!

Not only are Bavarians (& Franconians) Germanic, they are the Germanics! Got it?!

dinarid love
Saturday, December 6th, 2003, 06:30 AM
Of course they are.