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View Full Version : Division of Northern and Southern Mongoloids



flander
Monday, June 19th, 2006, 03:07 AM
I've seen topics talking about genetic distintion between northern and southern mongoloids, often criticizing southern mongoloid. To help you better understand this issue, i decided to post logic.

NORTHERN DIVISION: typically the steryotypic mongoloid specimen, overall mongoloid with little admixture from other racial classification. Characteristic includes sharper face than southern devision, high cheekbones, overall flat face, epicanthic frequently occurs, and narrow noses adapted for colder climates. skin pigmentation are yellowish, usually very pale complexion.

typical korean: vey typical northern mongoloids. Thicker lips and tall structure.
http://www.koreanmedicine.net/3news/images/leejema.jpg
typical Chinese: possible admixture from southern chinese. Relatively tall, thick lips and epicanthic widely present.
http://www.seas.upenn.edu/~yding/friends/beijing/DSC02002.jpg
typical japanese: admixture with ainu people. Typical Japanese are of short structure and hairy bodies. Skin is very pale to darker yellow.
http://www.e-budostore.com/images/yukata-m02-1761-2.jpg

SOUTHERN DIVISION: The southern division have less steryotypic mongoloid features, australoid admixture is overall present even in southern chinese. Filipinos have high degree of negrito admixture. Skin pigmentation goes from light to brown, undertone yellowish. The first and secound wave of migration of mongoloids were austronesian speaking people circa 10,000-3,000, moving southward to indonesia and to the islands of the Phillipines, replacing or absorbing australoids. Secound migration waves have less admixture. The third wave of mongoloids includes tai-kadai, mon-khmer and possibly later waves of malays around 200 b.c to 600 a.d. These migration of people have more mongoloid features but have extensively mix with early secound migration. Features include large occurence of epicanthic, broad nose, thicker lips, high cheekbones, overall flat face, brachyphyll occurence is high.

typical thai: most of the thai population are mixed people of chinese descent. Thai features are largely simmiliar to malays and cambodians, with the exeption of higher frequency of epicanthic.
http://www.jijigaho.or.jp/app/0409/image/sp12.jpg
typical fillipino: modern filipinos are very mixed, either chinese or european, most of the fillipino population have negrito aetas ancestors.
http://www.mbcb.org/images/connections/Filipino-believer.jpg
typical vietnamese:vietnamese people are extensively mixed with chinese peopulation, their ancient homeland are in areas with less uv-rays, giving them lighter skin.
http://www.armyrecognition.com/Asie/Vietnam/Uniform_Soldier/Vietnamese_soldier_01.jpg
typical cambodian: cambodians have arrive in southeast asia circa 100 a.d, likely admixture from malay people. skin range from light to yellowish brown. epicanthic presented over 40% of cases.
http://www.everyday.com.kh/photogallery/photos/Entertainment/00039_samnang_chenda.jpg
typical malaysian: malaysian todays are mixed arab or chinese, but even in cases where one is not mixed mongoloid feature are more apparent then their fillipino or indonesian counterpart due to later migration and less admixture.
http://links.smu.edu.sg/rendezvous/images/f2pic.jpg

The overall point of this thread is to show that even with admixtures, northern and southern mongoloids are basically more related and share very simmiliar traits to each other. Both have been culturally important, advance, and powerful trading empires have been established by both people from the old and advance civilazation of china to the powerful and seafaring states of cambodia and malaysia.

Bridie
Monday, June 19th, 2006, 12:49 PM
I agree with you Flander that the Northern Asians are not superior to the Southern Asians. In fact, on a personal level, I tend to generally prefer the Southern Asians as company, as many Southern Asian cultures seem to produce more easy-going and friendly people, with a greater degree of humility and generosity (and very family/child friendly too! :) ).

However, its more than just a bit of a stretch to state that the Northern Asians have "very pale complexions". Under normal conditions (and normal degrees of sun exposure), they don't. Its due to fashion that they strive to achieve pale skin.... I've seen plenty of Japanese surfies here in Australia that don't bother with trying to be as pale as they possibly can, nor bleach their skin, and they are certainly just as dark as your average Indonesian or Fillipino.

I posted this link in a different thread, but I think its relevant here....

http://edition.cnn.com/2002/WORLD/asiapcf/east/05/13/asia.whitening/

My point is that while the Northern Asians try harder emulate Europeans, the Southern Asians generally tend to stay truer to themselves and their traditional cultures, taking greater pride in who they are (with exceptions like Singapore, of course).

Spjabork
Wednesday, June 21st, 2006, 09:51 AM
I agree (...) that the Northern Asians are not superior to the Southern Asians. In fact, on a personal level, I tend to generally prefer the Southern Asians as company, as many Southern Asian cultures seem to produce more easy-going and friendly people, with a greater degree of humility and generosity (and very family/child friendly too! :) ).
This is due to historical rather than racial reasons. As for China, the North has almost always politically dominated the South. There is a ubiquitous saying among the Chinese in Germany: "The Northerners study - the Southerners work hard." Most of the Chinese students in fact are from northern China, whereas almost all the (small and big) businessmen are from the south. The line is Shanghai, the city itself being in between: the Shanghaiers are regarded and regard themselves as Southerners, but at the same time some students come from there.
That so much attention still is paid to "education" is deeply rooted in the past: in Confucian tradition, the learned man has the outlook of becoming a state official.
I.e. will be one of the future rulers of the country. OTOH there is a deep and wide-spread conviction among the Southerners that "money makes the world go round".;) You may argue that this has something to do with race. But in that case it would bring the Northern People (North Chinese, Japanese, Koreans) closer to us, the Southern People (South Chinese, Philipinos, Vietnamese, Thai etc.) closer to the Arabs, Jews, Hindustanis etc. ;)


I've seen plenty of Japanese surfies here in Australia that don't bother with trying to be as pale as they possibly can, nor bleach their skin, and they are certainly just as dark as your average Indonesian or Fillipino.
Yes. Many Japanese men are rather dark-skinned. Especially of the lower class and lower middle class strata. If they can afford surfing now ;) this means they work very hard ;) or they are sort of nouveaux riches.

On the whole, Japanese females are lighter, males are darker. This distinction is so strong that it seems it must be connected with sexual rather than "natural" selection.


My point is that while the Northern Asians try harder emulate Europeans, the Southern Asians generally tend to stay truer to themselves and their traditional cultures, taking greater pride in who they are (with exceptions like Singapore, of course).
There is no difference in that respect between the "exception" Singapore and Honkong/Macao. And within the "communist" China, Shenzhen strives to become another Hongkong, Zhuhai wants to copy Macao. And only half of Shenzhen's population were born and raised in the North.

And the Vietnamese now would like to copy the Chinese "model of success" etc. pp. Your statement - based on your personal experience as I know - is too generalized and does not consider change by time.

Spjabork
Wednesday, June 21st, 2006, 12:29 PM
typical korean: vey typical northern mongoloids. Thicker lips and tall structure.
http://www.koreanmedicine.net/3news/images/leejema.jpg
Well, the traditional Korean costume helps a lot to identify nationality.;)
The face (body "structure" cannot be seen here) as such is not very "typical", but what makes him probably Korean is the strong and tight beard, not so often to be found in even North China, but more common in Korea.


typical malaysian: malaysian todays are mixed arab or chinese, but even in cases where one is not mixed mongoloid feature are more apparent then their fillipino or indonesian counterpart due to later migration and less admixture.
http://links.smu.edu.sg/rendezvous/images/f2pic.jpg
This girl is not typical Malaysian. I'd say her parents are 100% Chinese.

Bridie
Wednesday, June 21st, 2006, 01:55 PM
This is due to historical rather than racial reasons. As for China, the North has almost always politically dominated the South. There is a ubiquitous saying among the Chinese in Germany: "The Northerners study - the Southerners work hard." Most of the Chinese students in fact are from northern China, whereas almost all the (small and big) businessmen are from the south. The line is Shanghai, the city itself being in between: the Shanghaiers are regarded and regard themselves as Southerners, but at the same time some students come from there.
That so much attention still is paid to "education" is deeply rooted in the past: in Confucian tradition, the learned man has the outlook of becoming a state official.
I.e. will be one of the future rulers of the country. OTOH there is a deep and wide-spread conviction among the Southerners that "money makes the world go round".;) You may argue that this has something to do with race. But in that case it would bring the Northern People (North Chinese, Japanese, Koreans) closer to us, the Southern People (South Chinese, Philipinos, Vietnamese, Thai etc.) closer to the Arabs, Jews, Hindustanis etc. ;)

You've mistaken the sentiments of my post. I never said anything about genetic differences. I merely said that on a personal level I tend to (generally) prefer Southern Asians.... and yes, I know that this is due to cultural and social factors. I wasn't arguing that the Southerns are racially superior. I agree with Flander that the Northerners and Southerners are not so different, hence me stating that Northern Asians are not so fair skinned as she stated.... they are more in line with the Southern Asians.




Yes. Many Japanese men are rather dark-skinned. Especially of the lower class and lower middle class strata. If they can afford surfing now ;) this means they work very hard ;) or they are sort of nouveaux riches.
Women are rather dark-skinned too, naturally. The only reason that I can see that the lower classes would have darker skin in Japan would be due to less vanity, and perhaps more "outdoorsy" types of jobs. The reason that Indian of upper castes have lighter skin is due to European admixture, so this is not the same thing.




On the whole, Japanese females are lighter, males are darker. This distinction is so strong that it seems it must be connected with sexual rather than "natural" selection.
I don't believe that for a second. It makes no sense that some genes for skin pigmentation would be passed onto one sex and not the other. It certainly doesn't happen in any other racial group in the world, why would the Japanese be so different?

A full-blood Japanese woman I know; her half-caste daughter (father is of Scottish descent) is darker than she is (her daughter is about as dark as those Vietnamese soldiers in the above pics), the reason being because the Japanese woman goes to great pains to keep out of the sun (carrying a UV protection umbrella with her whenever she goes outdoors) and I suspect, bleaches her skin. My point is that naturally, she's not so light, if she can produce a child who is so dark with a pale complected man.

The reason Japanese women tend to look paler than the men is due to vanity and effort. Its considered effeminate for Japanese men to be so vain and more acceptable for them to have darker skin, so of course the men will be darker than the women. But this is not due to genetics. Its cultural and social. I've never seen an Asian male walk around with an umbrella for protection from the sun, but here in Australia I see Asian women with them every day.


There is no difference in that respect between the "exception" Singapore and Honkong/Macao. And within the "communist" China, Shenzhen strives to become another Hongkong, Zhuhai wants to copy Macao. And only half of Shenzhen's population were born and raised in the North.

And the Vietnamese now would like to copy the Chinese "model of success" etc. pp. Your statement - based on your personal experience as I know - is too generalized and does not consider change by time.Yes, that's true. I am generalising.


People try to make out that the Southern Asians are more physically primitive than the Northern, I just can't agree. Although, they obviously are culturally and socially.

Dr. Solar Wolff
Thursday, June 22nd, 2006, 05:56 AM
On a personal level I have noticed that hybrids who are Caucasian x Southern Asia are usually or at least sometimes darker than either parent. I chalk this up to hybrid vigor in that there are probably many genes and alleles for pigmentation. Asians may have some and some dark phases, so might Caucasians but when they mix, the hybird is more likely to get additive pigment genes, more than either individual parent.

Bridie
Thursday, June 22nd, 2006, 06:50 AM
On a personal level I have noticed that hybrids who are Caucasian x Southern Asia are usually or at least sometimes darker than either parent. I chalk this up to hybrid vigor in that there are probably many genes and alleles for pigmentation. Asians may have some and some dark phases, so might Caucasians but when they mix, the hybird is more likely to get additive pigment genes, more than either individual parent.
That makes no sense. If the dominant (darker pigmentation) genes are present in either parent to be inhereted by the offspring, they would show up in the phenotype of the parent who possesses them.