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Digitalseal
Friday, June 16th, 2006, 01:27 AM
What are the main differences between the Dinarid and the Armenid type? ,except the pigmentation. I'm aware of those that various anthropologists have pointed out, but none seem to be noticeable.

Erbe
Thursday, July 6th, 2006, 01:02 PM
Dinarid race is taller than armenid. Never seen any Armenid, from whom you could say thats a big human. Also the noses differ, the armenid nose is others. The armenid eyes are bigger than dinaric. The armenid character is way far from the european dinaric character. Them armenids are semi oriental-semi caucasian people in their way of beeing. The dinaric race is common european in its behaviour, european minds, european way of thinking, everythin besides the look.

Pro-Alpine
Friday, July 7th, 2006, 02:30 AM
From my view the Armenid Nose is more convex and larger and their faces are longer.

vingul
Friday, July 7th, 2006, 09:27 AM
Armenids are larger-faced and -nosed, and darker-pigmented, and not as tall as Dinarids.

Coon, who had his own (simplified) view of the process of dinaricization, theorized that the essential distinction between Dinarid ("Dinaric") and Armenid ("Armenoid") lay in the nature of the Mediterranid ("Mediterranean") contribution, Atlanto-Mediterranid ("Atlanto-Mediterranean") or similar (e.g. Pontid) in Dinarid, Iranid ("Irano-Afghan) in Armenid.

Serbian Krieger
Friday, August 4th, 2006, 03:36 AM
There is no way that dinarics are related in any way with armenoids. Just take look at this picture.

http://img465.imageshack.us/img465/5494/nairisc25jr8.jpg

Here on this picture you have a team from Armenia (in red dresses), and a team from Serbia (in yellow dresses). I think that difference is obvious! :-O

Erbe
Friday, August 4th, 2006, 06:31 PM
??

Bad example if you ask me. The "Serbs" look everyithing else but not dinaric, the Armenians have 3 - 5 team players who come near to armenid.

Somebody must post a typical armenid and dinarid pic of individuals, so we can talk further.

Galaico
Friday, August 4th, 2006, 06:48 PM
Dinarid according to Coon
http://med1nuc11.dfc.unifi.it/linnets/troe/images/p38f2.jpg

Armenid according to Coon
http://med1nuc11.dfc.unifi.it/linnets/troe/images/p42f1.jpg

IMO it's quite hard to find stabilised Taurid forms, as IMO Dinarisation and Armenisation are more processes than real sub-types.

Erbe
Friday, August 4th, 2006, 07:09 PM
Look here i think this is more than enough to answer it:

"the Armenoid and Dinaric types can look very similar due to the facial features and relatively brunet pigmentation, though the Armenoid is said to be somewhat darker in pigmentation, and with slightly more pronounced features, though there is overlap. I personally think that both types share a common parent type or evolved from a similar source, hence their commonalities."

"Traditionally, Dinarics and Armenoids are regarded as both being Taurid types, meaning they represent the crossing of a longheaded type (usually a brunet type like Atlanto-Mediterranean or Cappadocian or Irano-Afghan) with a broadheaded one (Alpine or Borreby). They are only related inasmuch as their parent types are related."

"Dinarics often have broad faces, relatively flat skulls, tall stocky builds, and long and more or less inclined noses and short arms. There is a fair mix of brunettes, blonds and brown-haired individuals in the Dinaric group and their skins are usually rosey to olive. Male members have a robust, or rustic look while the females tend to be more masculine.

The Armenoid race' is similar to Dinaric race the only difference is that they have a darker pigmentation due to racial mixture Mediterranean race and the Irano-Afghan race. Both of the Mediterranean race came When the Arabs invaded the Caucasus. Today 90% of the people of the Caucasus belong to this sub-race of the Caucasian race. It's pure form is found in the Northern Caucasus, people such as the Avars and Chechens belong to it. Sometimes they are known as the true Caucasians. They are relativly tall people, have a flat face, with large round eyes ranging from green to black, and a high nose. Sometimes it's hooked nose this due to the intermarriage with the Iranians of the region such as the Taylish, Kurds, Persians, and the Tats."

Agrippa
Friday, August 4th, 2006, 09:34 PM
Short description following C. Vogel:
The nose of the typical Armenids is rather broader, fleshy and differently formed. The mouth is rather broad too, the lips, especially the lower, unusual formed, the chin is not strong, mostly neutral, the palbebral fissure is thick and fleshy too with a hanging lower eyelid. Hairs are more wavy and less simple than in most typical Europids.

There are fluent borders between Dinarid and Armenid in the Caucasus and Anatolia (Mtebid/Kaukasid being in some aspects even closer to Dinarid, Anadolids having at least some traits in common with Dinarids, are finally between Dinarid-Mediterranid-Armenid proper and overall Armenoid. But the typical Armenids show a different face and body.

Dinarids are tall, have a strong facial relief, strong-prominent chin, a hooked nose quite often, whereas Armenids have especially in later age a rather undifferentiated face with hanging eyes, fat deposits, hanging lower lip and hanging nose, in fact the whole face looks in typical Armenids like hanging rather than sharp like the Dinarid.

Compare a typical Dinarid from Coon with a typical Armenid. Many of Coons Dinarids are not that typical, as are a lot of his examples not as good as those of other authors. His concept of Dinarids was rather wrong too and following it he partly has chosen worse examples than he could (to show the Alpinoid influence in "Dinarics" I guess...)
So I used just the better matches, like this classic-typical Dinarid:
http://med1nuc11.dfc.unifi.it/linnets/troe/images/p39f3.jpg

Typical more refined Norid for comparison:
http://med1nuc11.dfc.unifi.it/linnets/troe/images/p39f4.jpg

All examples from here:
http://med1nuc11.dfc.unifi.it/linnets/troe/texts/index.htm

Now typical Armenids (Coon used the term Armenoid and did right so even if not intending, since he included a lot in it...compare with the suffix system (http://forums.skadi.net/showthread.php?t=5454)):

Extreme Armenid type:
http://wsi.matriots.com/What%20is%20a%20Jew_files/mayer.jpe

Though this site includes some propaganda, the basic anthropological information is valuable and comes mostly from the work of Baker:
http://wsi.matriots.com/What%20is%20a%20Jew.html
Armenids being described there sufficiently.

The original Taurid groups were all rather herders of the mountainous regions, or specialised groups of quite warlike character, in a way not that dissimilar from Nordids, Cromagnids and tall Mediterranids in the flat lands.
http://forums.skadi.net/showthread.php?t=44114

More in this German thread, including more examples for Dinarids:
http://forums.skadi.net/showthread.php?t=47945

Like I said, the border between Dinarid and Armenoid is fluent in some areas, but the difference between a typical Dinarid and Armenid is very clear with the latter having lost his original strong physique and being rather a reduced and somewhat degenerated (physically at least) sedentary and urban variant.

Compare with this:
http://forums.skadi.net/showthread.php?t=60124
http://forums.skadi.net/showthread.php?t=60537

and
http://forums.skadi.net/showthread.php?t=61210

So Dinarids are European mountainous herder variants one could say, intermediate and unreduced Armenoids the same in the Asian areas, with Armenid proper being a different adaptation, though like its the case with Alpinisation, there are different degrees of reduction and pyknomorphisation, some Armenids show still a certain "herder character", whereas others being typical sedentary and urban variants, a one sided social specialisation rather.

In Anatolia the border is though somewhat fluent still quite clear between Dinarid and Anadolid, in the Caucasus its very fluent with no clear border since the Mtebid/Kaukasid type is close and rather Dinaroid even - hard to judge to which form he is closer. But interestingly thats only hard to judge if going to the groups in the Northern Caucasus area and highland herders, not so in the cities of Georgia and Armenia as much, in which typical Armenids are already much more common...

Possible sources for the different racial types:
http://forums.skadi.net/showpost.php?p=472562&postcount=6

One could speak even more in detail about Armenids, this should be enough so far.

Serbian Krieger
Saturday, August 5th, 2006, 08:47 PM
??

Bad example if you ask me. The "Serbs" look everyithing else but not dinaric, the Armenians have 3 - 5 team players who come near to armenid.

Somebody must post a typical armenid and dinarid pic of individuals, so we can talk further.


I was just mading a point that Armenoids do not belong to Aryan (Europoid) race. O.K?
By the way, more pictures of typical Armenoids:


http://24.13.100.123/arhiva/slike/rase/armenoidi/armenidnejermenke29sb.jpg


http://img83.imageshack.us/img83/2759/filles20nicedp8.jpg


http://24.13.100.123/arhiva/slike/rase/armenoidi/armenidnejermenke14nx.jpg


http://24.13.100.123/arhiva/slike/rase/armenoidi/jermenskiarmenoid8zp.jpg http://www.snpa.skadi.net/bilder/mtebid.jpg

http://img112.imageshack.us/img112/9097/jermenijaarmenoid5on.jpg



No nude pictures of that kind in this section - belongs into the adult one


http://img222.imageshack.us/img222/3971/jermenskahitherazijatskarasa8e.jpg

Amorsite
Tuesday, August 15th, 2006, 08:52 AM
1-"Dinarid" is not a type, there is no such thing as the dinaric race. Dinaric is only a term used to refer to nonintermediate forms resulting from the mixture of alpines and meds, it is a special mophological condition.

2-Armenoid is a spectrum of dinaric forms resulting from the mixture of alpine and irano-afghan types.

Agrippa
Wednesday, August 16th, 2006, 09:22 PM
1-"Dinarid" is not a type, there is no such thing as the dinaric race. Dinaric is only a term used to refer to nonintermediate forms resulting from the mixture of alpines and meds, it is a special mophological condition.

2-Armenoid is a spectrum of dinaric forms resulting from the mixture of alpine and irano-afghan types.


Thats simply not true. There is no basic rule for any mixture of Mediterranid and Alpinoid which would result in a stable Dinarid and the Dinarid form can be as stable as every other racial type. Dinarisation is a process, but mainly through selective pressure, not simple mixture. Coon was just wrong on that, as he was on many other things. There exists the Dinarid and Armenid type and both are not just the result of mixture, but independent evolutionary tendencies, specialisations, as are all racial types. The end result of the process is stable and clearly defined.

cartouche
Tuesday, September 26th, 2006, 04:03 PM
In fact, there is no reason to assume that Dinarics came into being as a result of mixing. Their DNA profile suggests that they are highly autochtonous in the Dinaric Alps since the end of the ice age. They may actually be the best today's representatives of the paleolithic gravettian hunters from the Carpathian basin. They have much less Oriental neolithic admixture than any other people in the Carpathian basin, not speaking about "African" Greeks with their 25% E3b1.

However, one thing that I don't understand is, how they have emerged from the paleolithic hunters since the ice age. I suppose there existed nothing like "paleolithic Dinarics". When did the Dinaric features emerged for the first time? And how it is possible that the Armenian type is quite similar to them in some aspects despite the large geographical and genetic distance? (Well, there was actually an influx of Balkan populations into Asia Minor during the last milleniums, but I suppose that the Armenian type evolved even before them.) I would like to find some anthropological study about the Balkan populations since the paleolithic era. Or would you have some data to comment it?

Agrippa
Tuesday, September 26th, 2006, 08:58 PM
This might be interesting if dealing with your question:
http://forums.skadi.net/showthread.php?t=44114

cogitoergosum
Wednesday, September 27th, 2006, 05:04 PM
Dinaricism...One of the few 'conditions' that appear in many races all around the world. I say it's a reptilian marker.

Nicola_Canadian
Wednesday, September 27th, 2006, 07:50 PM
Dinaroid on the left, Armenoid on the right -

http://i75.photobucket.com/albums/i308/Nicola_Canadian/armenoid_dinaroid.jpg

sunwheel_cro
Thursday, September 28th, 2006, 11:29 AM
I dont think that Dinaric have mediterrean mixture.
Maybe Dinaric Greeks, or Italians, but Dinaric Croats, Montenegrians, Slovenians are different.
When you visit some Croatia city on adriatic coast, city looks like tipical mediterian city but people do not look tipical mediterrean. Comparing Croats with Italian turist they have nothing comon. But Croats have lot of common look with Slovenians, Hungarians, Cezsch(sry for spelling) turists and other Central Europeans. Only diffenrence is that average dalmatian Croat is maybe taller.
I am 1.83cm this is average height here. If you are under 1.80cm you are consider to be small.

Agrippa
Friday, September 29th, 2006, 02:54 PM
Dinaroid on the left, Armenoid on the right -

http://i75.photobucket.com/albums/i308/Nicola_Canadian/armenoid_dinaroid.jpg

He has Armenoid admixture at best, his headshape is the opposite of an Armenoid, rather an Nordid-Iranid-Alpinoid mix me thinks.

Pro-Alpine
Friday, September 29th, 2006, 09:02 PM
The fight goes on

http://i9.tinypic.com/4c8jtxk.jpg VS http://i10.tinypic.com/2myw3nq.jpg

JŠnos Hunyadi
Saturday, September 30th, 2006, 06:25 AM
He has Armenoid admixture at best, his headshape is the opposite of an Armenoid, rather an Nordid-Iranid-Alpinoid mix me thinks.

I agree, Agassi isn't the best example of an Armenoid.

BTW, what is his ancestry?

Greek? Iranian?

Skyht
Monday, October 2nd, 2006, 03:33 PM
@Janos Hunyadi

His father was an Iranian Armenian and his mother American as far as I know.

His head shape is not a good armenoid example imo.

http://www.itatennis.com/EventsResults/Sperling_Clinton_Agassi.jpg

Agrippa
Monday, October 2nd, 2006, 03:35 PM
@Janos Hunyadi

His father was an Iranian Armenian and his mother American as far as I know.

His head shape is not a good armenoid example imo.

http://www.itatennis.com/EventsResults/Sperling_Clinton_Agassi.jpg

Of course its the opposite, metrically Irano-Nordoid category...

Skyht
Tuesday, October 3rd, 2006, 09:59 AM
@Agrippa

Yes I expected this but I donít feel to be in the position to make a more precise claim with the level of my knowledge.

Armenian is in Iran mainly a religious term, meaning Christian, so itís quite possible that Aghassis father had no real Armenian background anyway.

There was a IE migration into Armenia, which probably mixed with the original Armenid population. Armenia had from one point on, an Iranian ruling class, mainly of the Parthian branch which was most likely a more Nordid-like population because of their Scytho-Aryan background.

Just some basic background informations on the Armenians.

SineNomine
Tuesday, October 3rd, 2006, 10:27 PM
I am curious, what happens when a subrace like the Dinarid mixes with the Pontid? For instance, the Pontid is tall, gracile and leptomorphic/leptoprosopic (hence long-faced). According to my classification, I am a Dinarid/Pontid; however, other than my Dinaric leptorrhinic, slightly convex nose, my face is predominantly Pontid, being longer and with a positive, but not particularly strong chin, and I am tall and leptomorphic. The Pontid is a Med type, and therefore prone to leptorrhiny and slight convexity (the Dinarid being more extreme in both cases) - is it easy to then detect Dinarid influences? Both Nordids and Meds have these tendencies when it comes to nasal structure - how then can Dinarid influences be seen, since both types are also long-nosed and potentially convex?

Galaico
Wednesday, October 4th, 2006, 12:47 AM
Good question. I suppose that convexity is stronger in Dinarids, Brachycephalism or Mesocephalism might indicate Dinarid influence, aswell Dinarids are usually slightly taller than Atlanto-Pontids. Anyway let's wait for the experts' opinion.

Skildur
Wednesday, October 4th, 2006, 12:50 AM
Good question. I suppose that convexity is stronger in Dinarids, Brachycephalism or Mesocephalism might indicate Dinarid influence, aswell Dinarids are usually slightly taller than Atlanto-Pontids. Anyway let's wait for the experts' opinion.


What is Atlanto-Pontid? Atlantid is a Western type and Pontid is Eastern, how are they combined together?

Nicola_Canadian
Wednesday, October 4th, 2006, 12:56 AM
I still think people refer to Atlantid OR Pontid when they say Atlanto-Pontid...


What is Atlanto-Pontid? Atlantid is a Western type and Pontid is Eastern, how are they combined together?

Galaico
Wednesday, October 4th, 2006, 11:05 AM
What is Atlanto-Pontid? Atlantid is a Western type and Pontid is Eastern, how are they combined together?
I refer to the Robust/Tall Mediterranid types, Atlanto-Mediterranid and Pontid. They are not the same, but are similar.

Agrippa
Wednesday, October 4th, 2006, 09:00 PM
They have both a lot of common and one could compare it with Skandonordid and Eastnordid in a way. Both are similar to the same if its about the basic specialisation (again like Skando- and Eastnordids). So one can group them together, which makes especially then sense if the exact designation being unclear. F.e. if a Northern Greek looks just like a tall-leptomorphic and lighter Northern Mediterranid variant, but one cannot say Atlantomediterranid or Pontid with any chance of certainty I would say Atlantopontid. If speaking about the racial specialisation I would group them together too as I do it with basic Nordids (Skando- and Eastnordid).

SineNomine
Wednesday, October 4th, 2006, 11:30 PM
Let's not deviate too much - could someone answer the questions raised in my post?

PS: Off-topic, I have a question for Nicola and Ivanushka: is Matanis a Russian surname? A friend of mine claims it is, but it sounds different to every Russian surname I have ever heard.

Agrippa
Wednesday, October 4th, 2006, 11:34 PM
I am curious, what happens when a subrace like the Dinarid mixes with the Pontid? For instance, the Pontid is tall, gracile and leptomorphic/leptoprosopic (hence long-faced). According to my classification, I am a Dinarid/Pontid; however, other than my Dinaric leptorrhinic, slightly convex nose, my face is predominantly Pontid, being longer and with a positive, but not particularly strong chin, and I am tall and leptomorphic. The Pontid is a Med type, and therefore prone to leptorrhiny and slight convexity (the Dinarid being more extreme in both cases) - is it easy to then detect Dinarid influences? Both Nordids and Meds have these tendencies when it comes to nasal structure - how then can Dinarid influences be seen, since both types are also long-nosed and potentially convex?

Well, on the long run something similar to a "Keltic Nordic" variant for the Pontid - Dinarid spectrum should come up if the Pontid part is dominant in a group. In mixed individuals a lot of combinations are thinkable, especially if considering that a pure Pontid-Dinarid mix (50 : 50) will be rather the exception and not forgetting that traits can be dominant or recessive too.

SineNomine
Wednesday, October 4th, 2006, 11:37 PM
So ultimately a brand new type will arise sharing traits from both I suppose. The Keltic Nordid (or Noric individuals) are still noticeably Dinarid, but you can tell that the type is something of its own. Wouldn't a mix between Pontid and Dinarid create a type similar to the Keltic Nordid in phenotypical terms too? I assume the type would be long-nosed, fair skinned, tall and dark haired.

Galaico
Wednesday, October 4th, 2006, 11:39 PM
So ultimately a brand new type will arise sharing traits from both I suppose. The Keltic Nordid (or Noric individuals) are still noticeably Dinarid, but you can tell that the type is something of its own. Wouldn't a mix between Pontid and Dinarid create a type similar to the Keltic Nordid in phenotypical terms too? I assume the type would be long-nosed, fair skinned, tall and dark haired.
That would be something similar to the West Pyrenaic Atlanto-Mediterranid, or Baskid, which resembles much to the Keltic-Nordid, being its North-Mediterranid equivalent.

Agrippa
Wednesday, October 4th, 2006, 11:57 PM
That would be something similar to the West Pyrenaic Atlanto-Mediterranid, or Baskid, which resembles much to the Keltic-Nordid, being its North-Mediterranid equivalent.

Absolutely.

And because I was asked on Stirpes about what I consider being Norid and "Keltic Nordic", post this here too:
A Keltic Nordic result of Nordid-Dinarid mixture being essentially Nordid, with just more facial relief, usually a lower skull and being darker, whereas a Norid is just a light and somewhat Nordiform/Nordoid influenced Dinarid with most typically Dinarid traits.

So a Keltic Nordic can be described as a Dinaroid influenced Nordid, Norid as a Nordoid influenced or even just light Dinarid - the other subtype of Dinarids beside the typical Adriatid variant. Norids are typically quite light pigmented in skin, hair and eye color, have a short and high skull, whereas the Keltics have different shades of pigmentation, a long and (at least in comparison as well as relative) low skull.

Examples from Coon with which I can agree with:
http://med1nuc11.dfc.unifi.it/linnets/troe/images/p29f4.jpg

FIG. 4 (2 views, photo C. W. Dupertuis). The Iron Age Nordic type is particularly
important in Ireland, which was never strongly invaded by Germanic-speaking Hallstatt Nordics. This individual, a man from County Clare, with his sloping forehead, aquiline nose, and brown hair, is an excellent example.

http://med1nuc11.dfc.unifi.it/linnets/troe/images/p29f3.jpg

FIG. 3 (2 views). An East Anglian from Ipswich, Suffolk. More of the English belong to this locally older Keltic Iron Age type, which came from southwestern Germany with the Kelts and is differentiated by a lower cranial vault, a more sloping forehead, and greater nasal prominence. The hair color is more frequently brown than light
blond.

http://med1nuc11.dfc.unifi.it/linnets/troe/texts/p29.htm

http://med1nuc11.dfc.unifi.it/linnets/troe/images/p35f3.jpg

FIG. 3 (3 views). A Noric Pole from Galicia. This type is characteristic of many of the southern and western Poles.

http://med1nuc11.dfc.unifi.it/linnets/troe/texts/p35.htm

http://med1nuc11.dfc.unifi.it/linnets/troe/images/p39f4.jpg

FIG. 4 (2 views). A blond Gheg from Zadrima; a classic Noric.

http://med1nuc11.dfc.unifi.it/linnets/troe/texts/p39.htm

Compare with a classic Nordid variants:
http://med1nuc11.dfc.unifi.it/linnets/troe/images/p29f2.jpg

FIG. 2 (2 views). An Englishman from the neighborhood of London, who belongs to exactly the same central Nordic type. In England this type is largely of Anglo-Saxon and Danish inspiration.

http://med1nuc11.dfc.unifi.it/linnets/troe/images/p27f1.jpg

FIG. 1 (3 views). A Finn of predominantly Corded type; note the ash-blond hair and
grayish eyes, the great head length, and extremely low cephalic index. In head and
face proportions a resemblance is seen to the Corded-like Irano-Afghan sub-type, a re-
semblance which is enhanced if pigmentation differences are ignored Both metrically
and morphologically this individual is seen to be fully Mediterranean; there is no evi-
dence of Upper Palaeolithic admixture.

And classic (Adriatid) Dinarid:

http://med1nuc11.dfc.unifi.it/linnets/troe/images/p39f3.jpg

FIG. 3 (2 views). An exaggeratedly tall, lean, and long-faced Dinaric from Klementi,
the northernmost bairak of the tribe of Malsia Ž MadhŽ. Northern Albania is probably
the most highly Dinaricized country in Europe.

Clear is the progressive character of the whole spectrum from Nordid to Dinarid.

SineNomine
Thursday, October 5th, 2006, 01:01 AM
When speaking purely in terms of nasal length, at what point does a Med or Nordid begin showing dinaricisation? Both types are already leptorrhines, with tendencies towards convexity. Is there perhaps a nasal index for this? Or is it only when a sum of features appears that dinaricisation can be detected?

Another thing, although slightly unrelated - what are the defining traits of alpinisation?

Agrippa
Thursday, October 5th, 2006, 01:23 AM
When speaking purely in terms of nasal length, at what point does a Med or Nordid begin showing dinaricisation? Both types are already leptorrhines, with tendencies towards convexity. Is there perhaps a nasal index for this? Or is it only when a sum of features appears that dinaricisation can be detected?

Another thing, although slightly unrelated - what are the defining traits of alpinisation?

Nasal index is secondary for that, its the absolute length of the nose and midface which is more important and even if its about that trait Nordids and Dinarids overlap. However, Nordids have usually a nose which doesnt go downward as often as the Dinarid one and being narrower (absolute). So its rather the combination of traits and I would speak of real Dinarisation mainly in the case of chances of the cranium - if those are fully absent, f.e. a long-narrow-low skull with a projecting occiput, I wouldnt speak of Dinarisation at all, only in the case of exaggerated Dinarid facial morphology in rather exceptional cases, otherwise just about Dinaroid influence. Just think about many Nordid, Atlantomediterranid, Iranid and Nordindid variants which have similar facial traits (especially nasal shape) to some truly Dinarid variants without having any similarities otherwise beside being classic, progressive and leptomorphic Europids. They partly dont have any other relations to Dinarids at all and Dinarisation without changes on the skull makes no sense. There were different opinions on that, but most better physical anthropologists would have agreed on that. A typical Dinarid must always at least approach the short-high planoccipital headform.

Similar to Alpinid admixture and Alpinisation, an individual which has not the typical signs of Alpinisation might have Alpinoid influences in morphology, but being not Alpinised in the crucial traits, going in the typical direction of the specialisation.

Alpinisation means reduction, pyknomorphisation and infantilisation. Compare this as well as many other threads:
http://forums.skadi.net/showthread.php?t=48678

Nicola_Canadian
Thursday, October 5th, 2006, 05:00 AM
Let's not deviate too much - could someone answer the questions raised in my post?

PS: Off-topic, I have a question for Nicola and Ivanushka: is Matanis a Russian surname? A friend of mine claims it is, but it sounds different to every Russian surname I have ever heard.

Matanis sounds rather Lithuanian

Skildur
Sunday, October 8th, 2006, 01:41 AM
Matanis sounds rather Lithuanian

Or Latvian. But could be a Greek as well. Greeks also have names which end with -is, for example , I knew one Russified Greek girl with surname Lesburidis.

Pro-Alpine
Friday, October 13th, 2006, 11:36 AM
Onefakesaxon knows the truth :D

http://forums.skadi.net/image.php?u=11456&dateline=1160723241

Erbe
Monday, October 30th, 2006, 10:17 AM
Why then you think Nicola_Canadian used the word dinaroid?

Nseag
Monday, October 30th, 2006, 10:22 AM
The hook nose and the prominent nose don't have a same origin.

You will never find really very great and very hook a noseÖbecause the mixture dilutes it doesn't invent but if are very great noses or very hook noses separately (is only an exemple of diferents traits)

Nseag
Monday, October 30th, 2006, 10:24 AM
Why then you think Nicola_Canadian used the word dinaroid?

yes, the dream has affected me ...:D

Erbe
Friday, November 3rd, 2006, 04:40 PM
yes, the dream has affected me ...:D

No, many ancestors have gotten a small taste of it, but if the american dream really is wishfull, i have my doubts! There are too many illegal aspects, the hardest are murder, sex and violence and all in ruthless forms. That's not my goal to get famous and rich.:thumbdown

oneeyeisbetter
Friday, November 3rd, 2006, 11:44 PM
Atlanto-pontid huh? An Atlantid such as myself mixing with a hot pontid chick. I've never heard that term but I guess it could explain some of the swiss population.

hedon
Friday, November 3rd, 2006, 11:59 PM
In my opininon, the main difference between dinaric and armenoid is that: dinaric looks like an eastern alpine with equatorial proportions and a beaky nose as the face is broader and shorter. Armeoid face is narrower and longer , which looks more like a dinaricized iranoafgan. I think, armenoid should be used synonimous to caspian mountain race.
kind regards

Herzkasper
Saturday, January 13th, 2007, 03:50 AM
Agassi is ethnic ARMENIAN ... His real surname used to be Agassian - or Agassyan!!!

CambridgeGreen
Monday, July 27th, 2009, 05:50 PM
Perhaps Armenoids are more brachycephaly than Dinarics (other than admixture with Alpinids)?

One of the example by Carleton Coon, as follows:

http://www.theapricity.com/snpa/bilder/troe424.jpg

Agrippa
Saturday, October 31st, 2009, 10:43 AM
No, there are many different local and individual variants with a huge overlap if its about the Cephalic Index, its more about the form, body type and facial traits. Actually if looking at the typical examples, there is little space for confusing them, at the fringes and in the mixture, it can be more difficult.

Ar-Man-En
Wednesday, December 9th, 2009, 04:22 PM
Agrippa help me please.

I find all 4 examples of Coon very different :(

First one and the Third one have something irano-afghanian

Second one looks like Dinaric with some Atlantid admixture

4th one have something Alpin-Corded

So, which one is the true armenoid ? :|



http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2538/4172511837_07083f9380_o.jpg

Agrippa
Friday, December 18th, 2009, 11:14 AM
Actually I dont think any of them is very typical.

But for the start, the Armenoids are just brachycephalised, and regionally reduced, variants of the Iranid/Irano-Afghan - Eastmediterranid racial spectrum of the Near East. They are a derivate, similar to Dinarid being a derivate of Mediterranid-Nordid-Cromagnoid forms in Europe largely, since all this Taurid types seem to be significantly younger than the longheaded forms.

The first one is pretty typical for the general, somewhat disharmonious (in comparison to other Europid types) and reduced Armenid type.

The second looks pretty mixed, his facial traits are in some respects not typical, I too assume Mediterranid influences.

The third being of the Armenoid-Eastmediterranid category, the "Dinarised" Eastmediterraid-Iranid spectrum of Anatolia, the more gracile-refined and harmonious Anadolid type of some authors. This individual was used as an example for that, compare with Knussmann:
http://forums.skadi.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=102801&stc=1&d=1261134837

The 4th seems to be quite typical again, just somewhat more Cromagnoid and unreduced in comparison to the first.

Ar-Man-En
Saturday, December 19th, 2009, 12:40 PM
Thank you very much! :thumbup
As I know, for some anthropologists Armenid and Armenoid are different,
Armenid is Armenoid sub-type, and Armenoid is Taurid subtype, but what is Taurid and can you show me exemples? :)
And for other anthropologists Armenoid is Dinarid+MEd, or Alpin+Dinarid, or even Alpinized Iranid .... So I'm little confused. :|

Agrippa
Saturday, December 19th, 2009, 06:27 PM
Thank you very much! :thumbup
As I know, for some anthropologists Armenid and Armenoid are different,
Armenid is Armenoid sub-type, and Armenoid is Taurid subtype, but what is Taurid and can you show me exemples? :)
And for other anthropologists Armenoid is Dinarid+MEd, or Alpin+Dinarid, or even Alpinized Iranid .... So I'm little confused. :|

Well, thats just a question of the used suffix-system. Simplified:
-id = typical
-oid = similar, belongs to, somewhat mixed-deviating etc.

So for the concrete example:
An Anadolid or Mtebid variant can be considered ArmenOID, but the typical Armenid variant is more strictly defined.

Taurid is just the category for all those types derived from mountain forms with a short head, usually longer nose and face, etc., so all Dinaroids and Armenoids together.

The same standards can be applied to other forms: F.e. Negrid = Negrids in the narrower sense, Negroid = including mixed and Europiform variants, like the Aethiopids in particular etc.

Ar-Man-En
Saturday, December 19th, 2009, 11:38 PM
Thank you very much Bruder! ;)
So and for conclusion, Armenid is Dinarized Iranid or it's just a part of anthropologist only who claim that ? :)

Agrippa
Sunday, December 20th, 2009, 07:38 AM
Thank you very much Bruder! ;)
So and for conclusion, Armenid is Dinarized Iranid or it's just a part of anthropologist only who claim that ? :)

Well, lets put it that way: IranOID variants are older, Armenoids are younger, they both show certain genetic similarities and live largely side by side, just in different habitats with different ways of living, but regional overlap.

So its just reasonable to assume that Armenoids in general are mostly "Armenized"/brachycephalised etc. Iranoids and Eastmediterranids. Some Iranoid strains might have been of a more protomorphic/primitive character which contributed to the Armenid type (Proto-Iranoid) in my opinion, and Alpino-Cromagnoid influences played in too, especially for the reduced, yet broader and more disharmonious build standard type, which is common in the Fertile Crescent area and especially among Jews.

In the end, Armenoids were originally the specialisation of Northern Near Easterners to the mountainous herder-warrior way of life. This product I call the "progressive Armenoid" or Northern Armenoid and Caucasid subtype, they are still more common in the higher regions of the Caucasus and are with their adaptive strategy similar to Dinarids.

Later then those forms moved South, into the Fertile Crescent, mixed with Eastmediterranids in Anatolia (Anadolid subtype) among which the "Dinarisation" prevailed, also because the habitat of Anatolia changed drastically in that time (no classic farming any more, like the Mediterranids practised it before, only the coastal areas are still largely Mediterranid) and Alpinoid further South, producing this reduced form of Armenid already mentioned, a type for farmers and urban populations, common among Armenians, Syrians and Jews, in ancient times related to the people of Churri/Hurrians, Urartians and Chatti.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hurrians

Typically their original languages point to the Caucasian origin.

They were later divided between Indoeuropeans (Hittites, Mitanni, Armenians, Kurds, Medes, Persians etc.), Semits (Jews, Arabs etc.) and Turkic people (Turks). So the Armenid type, common among Jews today, was originally no Semit racial type, but the local farmer and urban people's descendents Semits assimilated, similar to what happened by the Indoeuropeans in Armenia.

Ar-Man-En
Sunday, December 20th, 2009, 04:50 PM
Thank you again.:thumbup

So you relate Armenoid type with Hurro-Urartians and if I understood it correctly, originally he's not Ind-European(aryan) and semitic type?
What's concerning jews, I think they are the most mixed (nation), if we can actually call them a nation... and I don't know if we can consider that they have some racial origins!? I think Ashkenazi jews have a strong Khazaro-turanid influences!
Turks were mongoloid-turanoid, that's obvious that real turks live today in the areas of Kazakhstan, Uzbekistan etc.

And I didn't see so much armenians of armeniod type, the most of them are pontid, alpinid, dinarid and even nordids (I found that here : http://nordwave.net/armenia-division/ (http://nordwave.net/armenia-division/)) Armenoids that I saw was generally Syrians, or Lebanese .

Agrippa
Sunday, December 20th, 2009, 06:32 PM
Thank you again.:thumbup

So you relate Armenoid type with Hurro-Urartians and if I understood it correctly, originally he's not Ind-European(aryan) and semitic type?

I relate them to Caucasians originally and the Southern expansion being strongly associated with speakers of related languages which appear in history as Hurrians and Urartians etc.

They are originally non-Indoeuropean and non-Semitic, but a group on their own, closest related to todays Caucasian people ethnolinguistic wise.


What's concerning jews, I think they are the most mixed (nation), if we can actually call them a nation... and I don't know if we can consider that they have some racial origins!? I think Ashkenazi jews have a strong Khazaro-turanid influences!

Well, I haven't seen any good evidence for the majority of Ashkenazim, for sure not for the Sephardim or Oriental Jews etc.

The Jewish core group was already mixed in the Near East, but predominantely Armenid-Arabid, though Mediterranid, Asian Alpinoid and even Nordoid influences were present too.

The Ashkenazi Jews of today are largely a mixture out of those Near Easterners with Europeans, by race and genes, just their population has some ethnoracial characteristics which are somehow more unique due to inbreeding and selection.


Turks were mongoloid-turanoid, that's obvious that real turks live today in the areas of Kazakhstan, Uzbekistan etc.

The original Turks lived further East even, because those countries of Central Asia you mentioned were in fact Indoeuropean and Europid lands, to the core. Today they are mixed in various degrees between Europid (Nordo-Cromagnoid, Iranid, Armenoid and Pamirid) and Mongolid (primarily Tungid and Tungo-Sibirid intermediates).


And I didn't see so much armenians of armeniod type, the most of them are pontid, alpinid, dinarid and even nordids (I found that here : http://nordwave.net/armenia-division/ (http://nordwave.net/armenia-division/)) Armenoids that I saw was generally Syrians, or Lebanese .

Those Armenids of the Fertile Crescent are more typical, deviate stronger from the Dinaroids of Europe than the Caucasian ones.

Yet Armenians have a lot of Armenoid and even Armenid in the narrower sense, though many other variants appear as well, including Nordoids, like it has to be expected for a larger ethnic group.

Ar-Man-En
Sunday, December 20th, 2009, 07:01 PM
I agree with you, just a few more questions,if I don't annoy you :P

What is pamirid?

Hittits were not armeniod, if it's originally hurro-urartean type .?!

You know about Armenian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armenian_hypothesis) or Anatolian hypothesis (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anatolian_hypothesis) ? Both are claiming that IE people born in Anatolia and Armenian Highland, so in this case where was happening the formation of armenoid type (Iranid is IE type? If yes what Nation was in origins of that type, I heard that Iranian tribes was pred. nordoids )? :)

Agrippa
Sunday, December 20th, 2009, 08:25 PM
I agree with you, just a few more questions,if I don't annoy you :P

What is pamirid?

The "Europid part" of Turanid proper, an essentially Dinaro-Alpinoid form common in Tajiks in particular.


Hittits were not armeniod, if it's originally hurro-urartean type .?!

Hittites were mixed people with different elements among them, but they had a significant Armenoid influence, especially in their Southern vasalls from different ethnic groups.


You know about Armenian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armenian_hypothesis) or Anatolian hypothesis (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anatolian_hypothesis) ? Both are claiming that IE people born in Anatolia and Armenian Highland, so in this case where was happening the formation of armenoid type (Iranid is IE type? If yes what Nation was in origins of that type, I heard that Iranian tribes was pred. nordoids )? :)

Well, the Anatolian hypothesis would only make sense if assuming that the Neolithics from Western Anatolia which came to Europe were already "Proto-Indoeuropeans" and just spread their language and culture.

Thats very, very unlikely considering the evidence and the fact, that most IE can be traced back to European Neolithic and Bronze Age cultures, especially Corded/Schnurkeramik and Ockergrab/Kurgan culture. These two however were no direct, unchanged Neolithics from Anatolia, they had a very different culture, closer to what we have to expect from Indoeuropeans if analysing the language and its carriers, the culture of the people which appear in the historical evidence.

So at best, Anatolian farmers contributed to the formation of the PIE groups in South Eastern, Central and Eastern Europe-Central Asia. There are many hints and proves for IE migrations, so this theory of unchanged continuity of Neolithic farmers in Anatolia from PIE to Hittites seems to be very unlikely, for most of the other people, including Iranians & Col its impossible, because they can be directly related to the horse-warriors and cattle-herders from Eastern Europe and Central Asia...

Catterick
Tuesday, May 3rd, 2016, 01:05 PM
Armenoids are less rugged and smaller than Dinarics with a more pinched forehead. I wonder how much this has to do with hybrid origins as opposed to nutrition and environment.