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Weg
Wednesday, June 14th, 2006, 05:12 PM
Is this map accurate?

http://forums.skadi.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=62279&d=1150420640

Digitalseal
Friday, June 16th, 2006, 01:32 AM
It's not that accurate, but the Alpinid subrace is originally from Central-Western Asia.

Weg
Friday, June 16th, 2006, 01:43 AM
It's not that accurate, but the Alpinid subrace is originally from Central-Western Asia.

OK. I understand some bashing comments now. Yes, it seems a bit exaggerated.

And is there an haplogroup related to them?

Thruthheim
Friday, June 16th, 2006, 01:47 AM
That Map i must add, is based on sub-types around 3000-1800BC, so areas have considerably changed, such as GB.

Agrippa
Friday, June 16th, 2006, 01:48 AM
Alpinisation was a process working on Cromagnoids, there was no clear immigration of all Alpinoids, Alpinisation happened in various regions and on various original forms of the Cromagnoid spectrum.

Compare:

Difference between Cromagnid and Alpinid (http://forums.skadi.net/showthread.php?t=58376)
Importance of Height in Sub-racial Type? (http://forums.skadi.net/showthread.php?p=381754)

http://forums.skadi.net/showpost.php?p=381754&postcount=22


Such maps reflect a static view on populations, but the character of a population can change with very minor or even no admixture at all because of evolutionary processes, selective pressure.

Again this can be enlightening:

Impact of The Little Ice Age: Europe (http://forums.skadi.net/showthread.php?t=44948)


So this map is absolute crap, because in the Bronze Age Alpinisation was particularly low and the main types being Nordoid, Mediterranoid, Dinaroid and Cromagnoid, in that order. It was a time of intense group selection and excellent conditions for human evolution. There was no such expansion of Alpinids in the Bronze Age, they just occured in certain rather isolated areas, but hardly ever controlled those areas in green on that map, absolute nonsense.

Alpinisation happened in most areas much later and under different conditions, the Bronze Age was mainly the time of Nordoid and Mediterranoid, secondary Dinaroid and Cromagnoid people.

Digitalseal
Friday, June 16th, 2006, 01:50 AM
OK. I understand some bashing comments now. Yes, it seems a bit exaggerated.

And is there an haplogroup related to them?

not sure, just wait for Agrippa's answer, he's quite knowledgeable about the Alpinids.

Nordgau
Friday, June 16th, 2006, 01:57 AM
Basically with respect to that map: Grant labels all short-headed Europids or Caucasians as "Alpines", dividing the whole Europid/Caucasian branch only into Nordics, Mediterraneans and Alpines, one should keep in the mind ...

Agrippa
Friday, June 16th, 2006, 02:24 AM
With respect to that map: Grant labels all short-headed Europids or Caucasians as "Alpines", dividing the whole Europid/Caucasian branch only into Nordics, Mediterraneans and Alpines, one should keep in the mind ...

Yes, but even then, if putting all "mountain races" (Taurid and Alpinoid in the widest sense) together we dont get this clear block he is showing, nor do we know too much about possible migration routes of certain Taurid strains, though to let them coming from India almost is ridiculous. However, his areas in green together with the green dots present the more important areas in which one could find brachycephals, even if just as a minority element. To be fair, one must recognise from which time this map is and which knowledge Grant could have for making it. Still he was, in a way, ahead for his time and influential in a partly positive way too. But I disregard such material as proper information about subjects for which much better material is available. He generalised a lot, intentionally too, which should be known.

The typical Bronze Age culture for larger parts of Europe which followed the Corded Ware people and was related to them was the Aunjetitzer culture (Únětice):
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unetice_culture
http://forums.skadi.net/showthread.php?p=457704#post457704

There were successors of the Bell Beakers (mostly Dinaroid in racial type) in Central Europe too though.

So there was never such a block of brachycephals of any sort and immigration alone can't explain the brachycephalisation anyway without the selective pressure and processes behind.

Nordgau
Friday, June 16th, 2006, 02:32 AM
So there was never such a block of brachycephals of any sort and immigration alone can't explain the brachycephalisation anyway without the selective pressure and processes behind.

At least his maps use to show the note: "generalized scheme". :D

Agrippa
Saturday, June 24th, 2006, 12:20 AM
Some newer ideas of min to the topic, I wrote that for Dodona originally, would be interesting to discuss, especially the iodine issue, because its just a speculative hypothesis of myself on which I work, the topic was why in some parts of Southern Germany, especially Bavaria, more Alpinids came up than elsewhere:

First, the Alpinoid strains were stronger there even in the distant past, not as strong as they became from medieval times to early modern times, but still. The peasantry was rather poor, in the higher regions animal husbandry was more common, that are the areas in which Dinarids flourished better. In the lower regions the nutrition was partly quite bad, meat was rare on the tables, fish expensive too. They poor people lived mainly from grains and later potatoes.

At the same time there were a lot of wars which caused serious losses of "good male material" under the merceneries, aristocrats and insurrectionists. F.e. in one battle against the Hungarians a whole Bavarian army was eliminated, the peasant wars caused high losses under the better peasantry. The social disciplinisation by mass murderer resulted in a stable, but rather unflexible and superficially conservative system stamped by the Catholic church, which can be contraselective because of celibacy and a certain tendency to a specific moral attitude.

The next point were diseases which again caused more losses under the progressive variants, especially if they suffered from malnutrition. The social structure was rather rigid, so social climbing difficult, mainly the church, towns people and mercenaries had a chance, all three groups, clerics, soldiers and towns people had higher losses than those which stood behind, both because of wars, diseases and generally lower birth rates. So neither the countryside nor the cities were really healthy and sustainable.

Very important was the "Little Ice Age" it seems, which made the conditions much worse in all of Europe, but particularly in the continental areas, in those areas which had no access to the sea, nor too much large lakes and rivers with rich fish sources.

Its interesting to see that in certain region of the Alps the struma being very common, which speaks for a lack of iodine, we can assume a lack of other minerals and vitamins too. Cretinism was far more common in certain Alpine areas, especially those which lacked large animal husbandry, too.

There was even the saying of the "Alpine cretine" referring to people with struma or even Cretinism, which was more common in those areas with no access to the sea nor larger animal husbandry. One of the last Cretins died in Switzerland according to this source in the 1970's (in German), because of the introduction of iodine salt: http://hls-dhs-dss.ch/textes/d/D22716.php (http://forums.skadi.net/redirector.php?url=http%3A%2F%2Fhls-dhs-dss.ch%2Ftextes%2Fd%2FD22716.php)

In Germany there is still a North-South difference if its about struma, though the North gets more problems now too, because they eat less fish now and cook the fish rather than roasting it, according to this site:


Von Rekruten aus Schleswig-Holstein und Mecklenburg-Vorpommern hatten nur 4 % einen Kropf, von denen aus Thüringen bzw. Bayern dagegen 28 bzw. 32 %. http://www.livol.de/jod.html (http://forums.skadi.net/redirector.php?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.livo l.de%2Fjod.html)

Recruits from the North have just a percentage of 4 percent struma, but people from Thuringia 28 and from Bavaria 32 percent!

There were Alpine areas in which up to 90 percent had struma and 2 percent Cretinism!

For various reasons this seem, in my opinion, correlated to Alpinisation and Dinarisation. Whats typical for Alpinids is that they "save bones", but gain mass through growing laterally with short extremities, partial or full infantilisation and pyknomorphisation. One can easily imagine the "saving character" of this specialisation. It allows to keep heat and a certain strength with low costs for the build up. They are even good for unergonomic work with the leverage, which again is good for their general occupations as sedentary peasants and low class workers in the cities. Sexual selection might have played in too, but rather in the way of reaching a maximal effect for women with a minimum input, like the whole specialisation, to get the "cheaper attraction".

The crucial point was: Already established system, all other elements which fought it being eliminated, inside of this system social adapted, compliant people which can work hard, stand cold and certain diseases with a minimum of energetic input being favoured, especially in the most unfavourable areas, which are, or at least were until recently, the main centres of Alpinisation. The lack of sufficient nutrition, vitamins and mineral nutrients, seems to be of some importance too.

I recently thought about Iodine in particular, because a lack of it leads to problems with the thyroid gland, now pathological cases with a low functioning gland often keep rather infantile traits and have growth problems. My general theory is that modification reflects the selective pressure. F.e. if Nordids have constantly a very deep tan, you can assume the selection will most likely go to "darker" rather than "lighter".

Same goes for those cases, Alpinids might be able to cope with that lack of mineral nutrients and other edibles than the more progressive forms which were high performance variants which flourish better on coastal lines or if having large herds and a lot of fish from the rivers. Its typical that the continental areas in which primitive gatherers lived showed the first Alpinoids, that in similar areas Alpinisation was strongest.

In fact I would like to make a study about that, but lack the opportunity ;)

So low energetic input, malnutrition, unergonomic work, regional isolation, plagues, negative social selection = Pyknomorphisation-Infantilisation-Reduction - in the case of colder environment combined with Borealisation. Various of this factors were at play in many regions, but most of them or all combined for specific areas, together with an already present small base being more common in Central Europe, including PARTS OF Bavaria.

My hypothesis which deals with the idea of Alpinids having less problems with the lack of nutrient minerals and iodine in particular being rather new under those mentioned above, I'm still working on it. Günther recognised the higher incidences of struma in Alpine areas too, but assumed that Alpinids might have a general predisposition for struma, what I doubt. I think its environmental and this pressure from the environment was another advantage of Alpinids in an unfavourable environment in which humans lived under bad conditions.

Its really interesting to see that along the North Sea struma was almost absent, but in parts of Southern Germany, Switzerland, Austria quite common.

Euclides
Thursday, December 28th, 2006, 04:52 AM
To understand the process of ''alpinization'' related with malnutrition and a conservative system imposed by the Catholic church, we can maybe take an interesting example ocurring in Brazil. Contrasting with subtropical/temperated southern Brazil, where the majority of population is from European origins, arid regions ( ''caatinga'') of northeastern Brazil are inhabitated by a human type originated from a triracial mixing ( Iberians,Negroids and Indians).This type is characterized by short stature and strong brachycephalisation, sometimes is knowed as ''Gabiru man''.

'' An anthropometric study of northeastern Brazilians, Phyllis B. Eveleth, Department of Growth and Development, Institute of Child Health, 30 Guilford Street, London W.C.I, England

This study was supported in part by a Rockefeller Foundation grant to the Laboratory of Human Genetics, Faculty of Medicine, University of São Paulo.''


Abstract

Nearly 200 males from a distinct Brazilian population referred to as Nordestinos were examined for 11 bodily measurements, two derived measurements, four indices, and nine anthroposcopic observations. The population, formed principally from a mixture of Portuguese whites, Bantu Negroes, and Brazilian Indians inhabits a marginal area characterized by extreme poverty. They are small to medium in stature with leg length slightly shorter than sitting height. They are broad-headed, and more than half have broad faces and medium nose shapes. The majority have brown eyes and black hair. A total of 36.9% show normal occlusion. The hybrid population is more variable in many metrical traits than Xingú Indians of Brazil. In stature and cephalic index and in a number of other characters the averages do not lie in an intermediate position between those of the parental populations even when these traits are distinct in the latter.

Euclides
Friday, December 29th, 2006, 06:58 AM
To understand the process of ''alpinization'' related with malnutrition and a conservative system imposed by the Catholic church, we can maybe take an interesting example ocurring in Brazil.
Contrasting with subtropical/temperated southern Brazil, where the majority of population is from European origins, arid regions ( ''caatinga'') of northeastern Brazil are inhabitated by a human type originated from a triracial mixing ( Iberians,Negroids and Indians).This type is characterized by short stature and strong brachycephalisation, sometimes is knowed as ''Gabiru man''.
. ''


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