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Digitalseal
Saturday, June 10th, 2006, 02:32 PM
just curious

Prince Eugen
Saturday, June 10th, 2006, 06:07 PM
Well many people give different meanings to the word ''Aryan"!I vote all the people from European origin!Ofcourse i'm not ''pan aryanist'' like PANF but i'm not also and a subracial chauvinist!That's mean that i believe in a European Imperium(as an opposition to Antlantism) who will respect the preservation of each European ETHNICAL AND SUBRACIAL GROUP!

Jnos Hunyadi
Saturday, June 10th, 2006, 09:36 PM
These guys www.panf.info of course! :D

Northern Paladin
Monday, June 12th, 2006, 12:49 AM
I think of Diablo Blanco and the Pan-Aryanist front. Or the as I'd like to refer it the everyone is white front. :D

Jnos Hunyadi
Monday, June 12th, 2006, 07:01 AM
I think of Diablo Blanco and the Pan-Aryanist front. Or the as I'd like to refer it the everyone is white front. :D

No, no, no! It's the forum for those who want to be White but just can't make the cut! :D

Don't worry Diablo! They are all White. . . . . .

http://amren.com/0201issue/mapsml.jpg

Jnos Hunyadi
Monday, June 12th, 2006, 07:07 AM
I'm just curious, who here choose the "only Northern European peoples"?

Every now and then I come across some random posters like Nordic Power 88 who thinks that this term only applies to Germans, Nordics, or people with blond hair and blue eyes. . . . . . .

You are forgetting that this is a term which Third Reich propagandists unjustly stole from non-European civilizations (Persia) for their own self-gratification. ;)

OdinThor
Monday, June 12th, 2006, 07:33 AM
I'm just curious, who here choose the "only Northern European peoples"?

Every now and then I come across some random posters like Nordic Power 88 who thinks that this term only applies to Germans, Nordics, or people with blond hair and blue eyes. . . . . . .
I did choose it. Its what comes to my mind, wasnt that the question? ;)



You are forgetting that this is a term which Third Reich propagandists unjustly stole from non-European civilizations (Persia) for their own self-gratification.
Well, that is stupid. Noone certainly knows how the original Aryans looked like, but quite a number have been obviously blue eyed, blond- and red-haired. Like Buddha, Bodhidharma or the mummies found in China and Egypt. The third Reich didnt stole anything for their self-gratification, but on the basis of scientific historical research.

Jnos Hunyadi
Monday, June 12th, 2006, 07:42 AM
Well, that is stupid. Noone certainly knows how the original Aryans looked like, but quite a number have been obviously blue eyed, blond- and red-haired. Like Buddha, Bodhidharma or the mummies found in China and Egypt.

Oh yes, Ancient Egypt, India, and China were all founded by blonde haired and blue eyed Nordids. I learned that after reading "March of the Titans" :D

If Arthur Kemp says so then it must be true! :roll

Corvin
Monday, June 12th, 2006, 08:16 AM
Hallo Everybody
The Term aryan applies to all the people of European origin, and since the study of European languages already in 19th century found similarities with the Sanscrit (which was the oldest language written), the term Indo-European arise. The preffix Indo, has nothing to do with the dravidds, the almost black original inhabitants of india, but with the language that was delegated to them during the Rama invasions around 5000 b.C.
Now on the subject of European Origin: The aryans have the greatest variety of physical characteristics and this typically deals with hair and eyes but also bones (the bone characteristics are changing very slow with respect to the hair and eyes and are a very good indicator of evolution). No other race has this variety present and this is the major characteristic of the Aryan. Where the other races present themselves with single characteristics the Aryan represent themselves with variety. Finally the blond aryans of some propaganda films of the 1930 were just depicting ideals! Since we lost the battle of 40's it has been used deliberatelly from the enemies the clich of the blond -blue eyed aryan and this clich must be destroyed!

OdinThor
Monday, June 12th, 2006, 05:25 PM
:roll
Do you think this is an argument? Did you even bother to verify the facts?

The historical Buddha Shakyamuni was born around 560 B.C.E. to a royal family. From early childhood, he was surrounded by wealth and beauty, and enjoyed a sophisticated education. The texts describe him as tall, strong, and blue-eyed.

source:http://www.buddhizmus.sk/?go=buddhism

Bodhidharma, was a 6 foot blue-eyed Indian prince and Buddhist monk who created ZEN by marrying martial arts [Gung Fu] and meditation.

source:http://www.hsuyun.org/Dharma/zbohy/Literature/essays/sangha-essays/windsurfing.html

Does this mummie found in China look chinese?

http://www.burlingtonnews.net/redhairedmummieschinagoldilocks1a.jpg

source:http://www.burlingtonnews.net/redhairedmummieschina.html

http://www.burlingtonnews.net/redhairedmummyramsess2.jpg

The mummy of the red haired Egyptian King, Ramses II, is on public display at the Egyptian Museum, Cairo
Forensics tests were done on Ramses, proving that his red hair was 'natural'. Ref: Ramses the Great by National Geographics.

http://www.burlingtonnews.net/redhairedmummye5.JPG
http://www.burlingtonnews.net/redhairedmummye4.JPG

Yuya's blonde hair and Caucasian facial struture have been well preserved by the embalming process.

source:http://www.burlingtonnews.net/redhairedmummiesegypt.html

Tripredacus
Monday, June 12th, 2006, 05:31 PM
I can only think of Arya/Iran or the media bastardisation of neo-nazis. In the United States, the term Aryan is seen as a hate term, and people react very badly if you start using it in a historical sense.

Mannerheim
Monday, June 12th, 2006, 05:39 PM
Many german 19th century intellectuals believed that all civilizations were founded by so called "atlantids" or better known as aryans.

Story goes that these aryans or atlantids lived in island called atlantis what is described in some ancient germanic mythologies as Thule .

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thule


In this island lived the god people who all were tall,blond and blue eyed.Their technology was far superior than what it is today(so they believed).

Some of these atlantids or aryans went to europe and asia just before this island was destroyd by huge tidal wave.These atlantids founded all great civilizations in asia(india).Trough out the time,the aryans mixed to inferior people and changed smaller and darker and lost their magical powers.

This story is what Heinrich Himmler believed to be real.

I personally think that this is just myth though there may have been island like atlantis or there really was island like atlantis but im not sure about the godmans.

Tripredacus
Monday, June 12th, 2006, 05:47 PM
See that is the main problem with this term. The peoples who were supposedly on Atlantis were not the same peoples known as the Aryans. In fact, the Atlantids are not represented in modern society, so it would seem they have been bred out or all had died or left. The Atlantids has previously come from Sumer, and out of current Turkey (the Caucasus Mountain region) and left to become Atlantis and Egypt, and further to found or rebuild the civilisations of the Aztecs. The Aryans that Himmler were searching for were the god-Kings of Sumer, not the standard Aryan people who were mere workers and slaves during those times.

Digitalseal
Monday, June 12th, 2006, 06:57 PM
"North Europid" has 6 votes?

some of you should really learn more about the true Aryans

Thruthheim
Monday, June 12th, 2006, 07:17 PM
Could that hair have gone blonde(must add, it looks like a very strong blonde, unusual)through some natural occurence due to how she was embalmed or something? And the European facial features, Aren't those in Egypt largely caucasoid, wouldn't that explain the similiarity between facial features?

Oswiu
Monday, June 12th, 2006, 07:56 PM
Does this mummie found in China look chinese?

http://www.burlingtonnews.net/redhairedmummieschinagoldilocks1a.jpg

Since when is Eastern Turkestan 'China'? Sure the Dark Haired People of the Middle Kingdom rule the land but ethnologically it's part of the old Scythian world. Rufosity there should surprise nobody.

More interesting for those wishing to explore the Europoid's former prehistoric hold on the east might be the Zhuny I recently read about in a Russian history of the Huns. Apparently, they spoke another language than the Chinese and occupied the territory between the Steppe peoples and the Chinese proper, all the way from northern Sichuan round in a great arc occupying hilly country all the way to the Khinggan ridge on the edge of Manchuria. Has anyone else heard of these people, who lived before the Han Dynasty, perhaps under a different name?

Forensics tests were done on Ramses, proving that his red hair was 'natural'. Ref: Ramses the Great by National Geographics.
Again, the Libyans of Herodotus's day showed such traits, and it shouldn't be unthinkable that it should have leached its way into the Nile Valley.

OdinThor
Monday, June 12th, 2006, 08:37 PM
Since when is Eastern Turkestan 'China'? Sure the Dark Haired People of the Middle Kingdom rule the land but ethnologically it's part of the old Scythian world. Rufosity there should surprise nobody.
I think quite a few people have been surprised that all of them have been either blond or red-haired! But I guess, if it becomes uncomfortable, all of a sudden it is "not surprising".

Most surprising of all, their physical features and clothing do not in the least resemble those of the Chinese of the period. In fact, they are almost certainly Europeans, with features like blonde or red hair, prominent noses, mustaches and beards, tartan-weave garments, and jaunty feathered caps.

The physical evidence flies in the face of long-held Chinese views that their own civilization developed independent of outside influences. Consequently the new discoveries are being downplayed and even suppressed by the present Chinese regime.

Nonetheless, intense speculation focuses on what the "mummy people" were doing so far from their homeland, and what became of them and the isolated civilization they built over the course of many centuries.

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/1998/01/980107084900.htm


Again, the Libyans of Herodotus's day showed such traits, and it shouldn't be unthinkable that it should have leached its way into the Nile Valley.
There is quite a remarkable time-gap between Herodot and Ramses II. But what would it change if there have been Libyans with similar features?

Oswiu
Monday, June 12th, 2006, 09:17 PM
I think quite a few people have been surprised that all of them have been either blond or red-haired!
As opposed to even light brunettes? Perhaps the fairer sort were selected for such special burial, perhaps having been of ritual importance in life?
While we're mentioning Herodotus, I'm reminded of the whole city-state he mentioned of redheads to the north of the Scythians. Any thoughts on these people?

But I guess, if it becomes uncomfortable, all of a sudden it is "not surprising".
Only uncomfortable to the Beijing government and Han nationalists in general.

Most surprising of all, their physical features and clothing do not in the least resemble those of the Chinese of the period. In fact, they are almost certainly Europeans, with features like blonde or red hair, prominent noses, mustaches and beards, tartan-weave garments, and jaunty feathered caps.
There's no reason that anything west of the Gobi and Tibetan massif should resemble the Middle Kingdom based on the Huang He.

The physical evidence flies in the face of long-held Chinese views that their own civilization developed independent of outside influences.
These discoveries have no relevance to purely Han history. There may have been no contact between the two cultures. The Communist Party can rest at ease.

Consequently the new discoveries are being downplayed and even suppressed by the present Chinese regime.

Nonetheless, intense speculation focuses on what the "mummy people" were doing so far from their homeland, and what became of them and the isolated civilization they built over the course of many centuries.
Of course, the CP doesn't agree with my analysis of the irrelevancy of it all! :D I suppose they just want to keep the existence of Uygurstan as quiet as possible until it's irrevocably Sinkiang. Not far off, unfortunately, given the rate of Sinification of the province. If only the Soviets had taken it... :(

There is quite a remarkable time-gap between Herodot and Ramses II. But what would it change if there have been Libyans with similar features?
But are you proposing that Egyptian civilisation as we know it only took off due to some Northern influence?

Here
Monday, June 12th, 2006, 11:41 PM
Come on! I can't believe that there are people here thinking that Aryan mean blond blue eyed, and therefore people from Nothern Europe.

If Aryan means blond blue eyed so many Italian, Portuguese, Croatian, Spanish etc... are Aryan. And many Swedes, Germans, Finnish etc are not. right?

Some people tend to forget some fact for example that there are plenty of
redheads in Sicily and there are plenty of blackhaired people in England and Germany for example.

The borders between North and South Europe are quite blurry, in this subject. And the only fact is that indo-Europeans come from the cro-magnon in general Don't they?? And all of them share unique genetic markets between them.

So what comes to mind when I think Aryan is indo-european people.

Thruthheim
Monday, June 12th, 2006, 11:55 PM
Aryan makes me think of pretentious neo-nazi types who are dillusional in thinking Aryan has any significant meaning to modern European Nationalists. It's usually the first term used by naive newbies to preservationism, which emphasises my point.

Jnos Hunyadi
Tuesday, June 13th, 2006, 06:46 AM
The historical Buddha Shakyamuni was born around 560 B.C.E. to a royal family. From early childhood, he was surrounded by wealth and beauty, and enjoyed a sophisticated education. The texts describe him as tall, strong, and blue-eyed.

source:http://www.buddhizmus.sk/?go=buddhism

Bodhidharma, was a 6 foot blue-eyed Indian prince and Buddhist monk who created ZEN by marrying martial arts [Gung Fu] and meditation.

source:http://www.hsuyun.org/Dharma/zbohy/Literature/essays/sangha-essays/windsurfing.html


So how do blue eyes make someone Nordic? Northern European? Or even European in general?

I have seen many blue eyed mullatos, mestizos, Iranians, Indians, and various other North African and Middle Eastern peoples with blue eyes.

BTW, did your link also describe Buddha as being long-headed with ash blonde hair and pinkish pale skin! :D

And please tell me OdinThor, if blonde-haired and blue eyed Nordics were so busy setting up all of these advanced civilizations in the far flung corners of the world (Egypt, Rome, Greece, Persia, India, among others) then why is it that Northern Europe (The homeland of Nordics) never had a civlization of any relative value or importance at this time?

Jnos Hunyadi
Tuesday, June 13th, 2006, 06:52 AM
Aryan makes me think of pretentious neo-nazi types who are dillusional in thinking Aryan has any significant meaning to modern European Nationalists. It's usually the first term used by naive newbies to preservationism, which emphasises my point.

Indeed, whenever I hear word I usually picture a bunch of 15 year old skinheads on some White Power forum like Combat 18 spending hours arguing over what's "White".

OdinThor
Tuesday, June 13th, 2006, 05:18 PM
So how do blue eyes make someone Nordic? Northern European? Or even European in general? I have seen many blue eyed mullatos, mestizos, Iranians, Indians, and various other North African and Middle Eastern peoples with blue eyes.

Thats because they all have Nordic ancestry. Blue eyes arent indigenous to these regions. To say blue eyes arent a sign of Nordic ancestry is like saying slit eyes arent a sign of asian ancestry. Its just denial.



BTW, did your link also describe Buddha as being long-headed with ash blonde hair and pinkish pale skin! :D


He had pale skin, but his hair wasnt blonde it was brown.



And please tell me OdinThor, if blonde-haired and blue eyed Nordics were so busy setting up all of these advanced civilizations in the far flung corners of the world (Egypt, Rome, Greece, Persia, India, among others) then why is it that Northern Europe (The homeland of Nordics) never had a civlization of any relative value or importance at this time?

Thats an appropiate question. Its like asking why is it, that we today know, that Northern Europeans have a higher intelligence than southern europeans, but they havent done much up north in ancient times.
Well, maybe the conditions havent been favourable? Maybe Aryans didnt even originate in the North?

Red Skull
Tuesday, June 13th, 2006, 05:25 PM
Voted Other. When I think of Aryan I think of 'Master Race'.

SuuT
Tuesday, June 13th, 2006, 05:54 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Thruthheim
Aryan makes me think of pretentious neo-nazi types who are dillusional in thinking Aryan has any significant meaning to modern European Nationalists. It's usually the first term used by naive newbies to preservationism, which emphasises my point.



Indeed, whenever I hear word I usually picture a bunch of 15 year old skinheads on some White Power forum like Combat 18 spending hours arguing over what's "White".

http://uk.groups.yahoo.com/group/Aryanosophy/?tab=s

This might assist the both of you--amongst others.

Oswiu
Tuesday, June 13th, 2006, 06:13 PM
Quote:
http://uk.groups.yahoo.com/group/Aryanosophy/?tab=s

This might assist the both of you--amongst others.
What? A small narrow group of enthusiasts quoting Indian hymns and Nietzsche at each other till the cows come home? Do us all a lot of good that will. :|

SuuT
Tuesday, June 13th, 2006, 06:59 PM
What? A small narrow group of enthusiasts quoting Indian hymns and Nietzsche at each other till the cows come home? Do us all a lot of good that will. :|

...As opposed to a 'large' and 'wide' group of emotional devotees equipped with all of the rhetorical devices of the ignorant who tend, more often than not, to cut off their nose to spite their face with respect to this most applicable term: Aryan? I merely pose the antithesis to your assertion--no pejoratives are implied or intended.

The Aryanosophy group archieve is a literal treasure trove of information for those who are confused as to what the term designates and delineates.

That individuals such as Nietzsche, Heidegger, Jung--not to mention the National Socialist Party of the (modern) Third Reich--used the term, ought to be enough for anyone truly interested in Contemporary National Socialism/Germanic Racial, Spiritual, and Cultural preservation to have a look into the matter.

But, alas: not everyone can connect the dots, as it were. And: "In the end it will be as it always has been: all things rare to the rare" (Nietzsche).;)

Aryan/Arya/Ariana=one/family/people--of Race.

Thulean Imperial Inquisitor
Tuesday, June 13th, 2006, 10:16 PM
I copy parts of my article What is Aryan and why we should use the word (http://forums.skadi.net/showthread.php?t=47015) article as they answer what comes to mind when I hear the word "Aryan".


What does Aryan mean?


The word Aryan (Ar'y-an) is from the Indo-European language family.
Ar = superior / noble. So an Aryan is a person who is superior / noble. Aryans are persons who are superior / noble.

Ar is not just something which scholars started using in the 18th century, like some leftist would like people to believe. Nor is Ar something the National Socialists of the Third reich just decieded to distort (they did not distort it). Ar/Ir is something which has been used by our people, the Europids, since history began. Ar has been used in both the east and the west all the time!

The Sanskrit lexicon Amarakosha (ca. 450 AD) defines Arya as: "An Arya is one who hails from a noble family, of gentle behavior and demeanor, good-natured and of righteous conduct. (महाकुल कुलीनार्य सभ्य सज्जन साधवः)"

On the subject of who and what is Aryan.


Are all of the Nordic / Europid race Aryans?


The Euoropid as a whole compared to the Negroid race can be considered Aryans. But can we truly say the being of the Europid race automaticly makes one Aryan? No, since most of the Europid race in this point in time are, in many ways, non-creative slave people. Only an Elite of the Europid race in this point in time are creative with a Master mentality, thus only an Elite of the Europid race can be considered Aryan.


For more info: http://forums.skadi.net/showthread.php?t=47015

Oswiu
Tuesday, June 13th, 2006, 10:45 PM
Ar has been used in both the east and the west all the time!
No it hasn't.
Give me an undeniable example of it in Celtic, Italic, Germanic and Slavonic. You can't. Even where you do find a reflex of the root in question outside the eastern sphere, it's still not an ethnosocial self-identifier.

@Suut.
At times, it seems like you are deliberating hiding being absurd pretentious academic language. In my book, if it can't be said in decent straightforward English, then it's got something not quite right about it. Dishonest, even. Obscure is not necessarily more intelligent.

SuuT
Wednesday, June 14th, 2006, 12:14 AM
@Suut.
At times, it seems like you are deliberating hiding being absurd pretentious academic language. In my book, if it can't be said in decent straightforward English, then it's got something not quite right about it. Dishonest, even. Obscure is not necessarily more intelligent.

Its unfortunate that that is your perception: perhaps its time to re-write "your book". I truly feel, as much as one is able to assay such things in this medium, that you have some potential; and are quite witty. Also, be assured!--you wouldn't be the first to call me something of an obscurantist. That's okay.

If you would be so kind as to let me know where and when I can be clearer, just ask. However, while we are being straightforward, bare in mind that A.) you are quite young B.) I think it safe to assume by the timbre of your posts that you are largely self-educated; therefore, you will have relative difficulty dealing with an academic (we will likely talk at cross purposes) C.) For the most, you are a simpleton: Nietzschean/Aryan/Reich spirituality studies (etc.) are not for everyone. Everyone has their place.

That a "European" Aryan is something of a contradiction in terms (for you) is no argument against it; but, rather, a condition of the existence of Arya Europa.

Incidentally, it would be profound of you to fix your suspicious eye to the mirror: the man with nothing to hide--has nothing to give. Et Visa Versa.

Oswiu
Wednesday, June 14th, 2006, 12:30 AM
If you would be so kind as to let me know where and when I can be clearer, just ask.
Let's start here, then;

That a "European" Aryan is something of a contradiction in terms (for you) is no argument against it; but, rather, a condition of the existence of Arya Europa.
What the hell's that supposed to mean?

Incidentally, it would be profound of you
Odd way of saying "Perhaps you should..." Profound? Doesn't that mean 'deep'? How would I be deep if I examined myself? :(

to fix your suspicious eye to the mirror: the man with nothing to hide--has nothing to give. Et Visa Versa.
How gratifying it must be to talk in fancy epigrams all the time. Shame they don't really mean much at the end of the day. Stick a bit of redundant Latin on the end though, and it'll be alright.

Delos
Wednesday, June 14th, 2006, 12:47 AM
First thoughts are blond hair, blue eyes, tall, strong, smart - the Master Race, but I know it also means Pan-European, including the Middle-East and northern India from my classes in Anthropology.

I think this may have been true 1000's of years ago, but not now. Take the Middle-Easterners, most of them have come from a miscegenation of "whites" and African female slaves during the times of the Barbary Coast pirates.

I guess I just find it too hard to equate some Middle-Easterners to Europeans I guess, maybe it's just my dislike for some parts of their culture that gives me a negative view of their people in general, but I like to think that Aryanism is more of a European thing now.

Thulean Imperial Inquisitor
Wednesday, June 14th, 2006, 01:06 AM
No it hasn't.
Give me an undeniable example of it in Celtic, Italic, Germanic and Slavonic. You can't. Even where you do find a reflex of the root in question outside the eastern sphere, it's still not an ethnosocial self-identifier.

It has.
I will give you examples of it in Celtic (Gaulish), Latin (you asked for Italic, I'm sure it can be found there), Germanic but not Slavonic as I have very little knowledge of their languages. The following showes that Ar/Ir has been used in the west for a long time, even before there was a West.

Anglo Saxon: r = honour, worth; glory, dignity; grace, prosperity; kindness, benefit, help (from a Beowulf glossary)
Gaulish: Arico
Irish: Aire
Ancient Greek: Aristos = best, noblest
Latin: ars = ArtNot to forget Ireland as Ir is the same as Ar.

Now to more Indo-European words related in meaning and/or etymology.

Sanskrit: Arya = kind , favourable; attached to , true , devoted , dear; excellent, master , lord, a respectable, a man highly esteemed, or honourable or faithful man, an owner
Old German: era
Germanic: erilaz = member of the noble class, Runemaster
German: ehre = honour, honesty, praise
Dutch: eer
Persian: riya
Icelandic: aall = nobilityAnyway, I'm sure you saw all this in my article which I have already mentioned in this thread. You did read it, didn't you?

SuuT
Wednesday, June 14th, 2006, 01:07 AM
Oswiu:

Are you interested in knowing what ought to come to mind when someone uses the term Aryan?

Bold, proud, prophetic; and moraline free. And perhaps most importantly, Contradiction as a natural law. Here are some words of a GermanoAryan:


"I know my fate. One day my name will be associated with the memory of something tremendous—a crisis without equal on earth, the most profound collision of conscience, a decision that was conjured up against everything that had been believed, demanded, hallowed so far. I am no man, I am dynamite.— Yet for all that, there is nothing in me of a founder of a religion—religions are affairs of the rabble, I find it necessary to wash my hands after I have come into contact with religious people ... I want no "believers"; I think I am too malicious to believe in myself; I never speak to masses ... I have a terrible fear that one day I will be pronounced holy: you will guess why I publish this book before, it shall prevent people from doing mischief with me ... I do not want to be a holy man; sooner even a buffoon ... Perhaps I am a buffoon ... And in spite of that or rather not in spite of it, because so far nobody has been more mendacious than holy men—the truth speaks out of me.— But my truth is terrible: for so far one has called lies truth.— Revaluation of all values: that is my formula for an act of supreme self-examination on the part of humanity, become flesh and genius in me. It is my fate that I have to be the first decent human being, that I know myself to stand in opposition to the mendaciousness of millennia ... I was the first to discover the truth by being the first to experience lies as lies—smelling them out ... My genius is in my nostrils ... I contradict as has never been contradicted before and am nevertheless the opposite of a No-saying spirit. I am a joyful ambassador like no one before me, I know tasks of such elevation that any notion of them has been lacking so far; only beginning with me are there hopes again. For all that, I am necessarily also the man of calamity. For when truth enters into a fight with the lies of millennia, we shall have upheavals, a convulsion of earthquakes, a moving of mountains and valleys, the like of which has never been dreamed of. The concept of politics will have merged entirely with a war of spirits, all power structures of the old society will have been exploded—all of them are based on lies: there will be wars the like of which have never yet been seen on earth. It is only beginning with me that the earth knows great politics."


36 years later--WWII: clear enough?


Some people just know, Oswiu--there is very little need for such people to ever question themselves. In fact, that is often a condition under which they do not turn out well.

This is not a riddle. It is an opportunity to not be reactionary.

Leofric
Wednesday, June 14th, 2006, 01:27 AM
When I hear the word Aryan, I think of the speakers of Proto-Indo-European.

By extension, I later think of their linguistic descendants.

Thulean Imperial Inquisitor's article on the word is the best I have read to make me think anything other than the foregoing. As a result of reading his article when he first published it here at Skadi (http://forums.skadi.net/showthread.php?t=47015), I have often considered the word applicable only really to certain groups of linguistic descendants of the Aryans — in every case a minority of the speakers of any given IE language. However, I still first and unhesitatingly use it to refer to the speakers of Proto-Indo-European.

Oswiu
Wednesday, June 14th, 2006, 01:59 AM
Thulean Imperial Inquisitor's article on the word is the best I have read to make me think anything other than the foregoing.

Since for me this is a purely linguistic matter, it's a shame TII hasn't even attempted to demonstrate how the list of similar sounding words he gives is a list of genetically related words. And I'd want to see him go through all the required soundshifts and everything for each branch. Even if he had done that, we would still be no nearer to proving that the original PIE speakers used the ancestral word in the sense he and Suut do, much less that they used it to describe themselves as an ethnic unit. Their fantasies rely far too heavily on Indian uses of the word, as though literate India popped straight out of the Urheimat with no history of its own.

I haven't got a decent etymological dictionary on me at the moment, so I request that anyone who has find me the proposed histories of TII's listed words;
Sanskrit: Arya = kind , favourable; attached to , true , devoted , dear; excellent, master , lord, a respectable, a man highly esteemed, or honourable or faithful man, an owner
Anglo Saxon: r = honour, worth; glory, dignity; grace, prosperity; kindness, benefit, help (from a Beowulf glossary)
Old German: era
Germanic: erilaz = member of the noble class, Runemaster
German: ehre = honour, honesty, praise
Irish: Aire
Dutch: eer
Greek: αριστος
Ancient Greek: Aristos = best, noblest
Persian: riya
Latin: ars = Art


I've found this so far;

R , e ; f. I. honour, glory, rank, dignity, magnificence, respect, reverence; honor, dignitas, gloria, magnificentia, honestas, reverentia :- S him r and onwald be to him honour and power, Exon. 65 b; Th. 241, 28; (http://dontgohere.nu/oe/as-bt/read.htm?page_nr=iii-xii#exon.th) Ph. 663. (http://dontgohere.nu/oe/as-bt/read.htm?page_nr=xiv#ph) Ne wolde he ǽnige re wtan nor would he ascribe any honour, Bd. 2, 20; S. 521, 29. (http://dontgohere.nu/oe/as-bt/read.htm?page_nr=iii-xii#bd.s) He sundor lf ws freberende eallum m rum he was preferring a private life to all honours, Bd. 4, 11; S. 579, 8. (http://dontgohere.nu/oe/as-bt/read.htm?page_nr=iii-xii#bd.s) Nyton nne re on nnum men they know no respect for any man, Bt. 35, 6; Fox 168, 25. (http://dontgohere.nu/oe/as-bt/read.htm?page_nr=iii-xii#bt.fox) Be re cirican re according to the rank of the church, L. Alf. pol. 42; Th. i. 90, 10. (http://dontgohere.nu/oe/as-bt/read.htm?page_nr=iii-xii#l.alf.pol) He on his genum fder re ne wolde gescewian he would not look with reverence on his own father, Cd. 76; Th.95, 18; (http://dontgohere.nu/oe/as-bt/read.htm?page_nr=iii-xii#cd.th) Gen. 1580. (http://dontgohere.nu/oe/as-bt/read.htm?page_nr=iii-xii#gen) II. kindness, favour, mercy, pity, benefit, use, help; gratia, favor, misericordia, beneficium, auxilium :- He gemunde a re e he him ǽr forgeaf, wc-stede w­ligne he remembered then the favour which he before had conferred upon him, the wealthy dwelling place, Beo. Th. 5205; (http://dontgohere.nu/oe/as-bt/read.htm?page_nr=iii-xii#beo.th) B. 2606. (http://dontgohere.nu/oe/as-bt/read.htm?page_nr=xiv#b) Ne mihte earmsceapen re findan nor might the poor wretch find pity, Andr. Kmbl. 2260 (http://dontgohere.nu/oe/as-bt/read.htm?page_nr=iii-xii#andr.kmbl) ; An. 1131. (http://dontgohere.nu/oe/as-bt/read.htm?page_nr=xiv#an) Him ws ra earf to him was need of favours, Cd. 97; Th. 128, 12; (http://dontgohere.nu/oe/as-bt/read.htm?page_nr=iii-xii#cd.th) Gen. 2125. (http://dontgohere.nu/oe/as-bt/read.htm?page_nr=iii-xii#gen) To gdre re to good use, Herb. 2, 9; Lchdm. i. 82, 21: (http://dontgohere.nu/oe/as-bt/read.htm?page_nr=iii-xii#herb.lchdm) Bd. 3, 5; S. 527, 14. (http://dontgohere.nu/oe/as-bt/read.htm?page_nr=iii-xii#bd.s) Eallum to re ylda bearnum for the benefit of all the sons of men, Jul. A: 2. (http://dontgohere.nu/oe/as-bt/read.htm?page_nr=iii-xii#jul) (Vid. Price's Walton, ci. note 34.) Lef and grs grwe eldum to re leaves and grass grow for the benefit of men, Bt. Met. Fox 20, 199; (http://dontgohere.nu/oe/as-bt/read.htm?page_nr=iii-xii#bt.met.fox) Met. 20, 100. (http://dontgohere.nu/oe/as-bt/read.htm?page_nr=xiv#met) ǽr is r gelang fira gehwylcum there is help ready to every man, Andr. Kmbl. 1958; (http://dontgohere.nu/oe/as-bt/read.htm?page_nr=iii-xii#andr.kmbl) An. 981. (http://dontgohere.nu/oe/as-bt/read.htm?page_nr=xiv#an) III. property, possessions, an estate, land, eccle­siastical living, benefice; bona, possessiones, fundus, beneficium :- He plihte to him sylfum and ealre his re he acts at peril of himself and all his property, L. Eth. ix. 42; Th. i. 350, 3: (http://dontgohere.nu/oe/as-bt/read.htm?page_nr=iii-xii#l.eth) Ors. 1, 1; Bos. 20, 32. (http://dontgohere.nu/oe/as-bt/read.htm?page_nr=iii-xii#ors.bos) Hwlum be re, hwlum be ǽhte sometimes in estate, sometimes in goods, L. Eth. vi. 51; Th. i. 328, 11: (http://dontgohere.nu/oe/as-bt/read.htm?page_nr=iii-xii#l.eth) L. C. S. 50; Th. i. 404,18. (http://dontgohere.nu/oe/as-bt/read.htm?page_nr=iii-xii#l.c.s) Se e sitte on his re on lfe he who lives on his property during life, L. Eth. iii. 14; Th. i. 298, 9: L. Eth. vi. 4; Th. i. 316, 1, 3. (http://dontgohere.nu/oe/as-bt/read.htm?page_nr=iii-xii#l.eth) t h him andlyfne and re forgefen for heora gewinne that they should give them food and possessions for their labour, Bd. 1, 15; S. 483, 19. (http://dontgohere.nu/oe/as-bt/read.htm?page_nr=iii-xii#bd.s) [Laym. (http://dontgohere.nu/oe/as-bt/read.htm?page_nr=iii-xii#laym) re, are : Orm. (http://dontgohere.nu/oe/as-bt/read.htm?page_nr=iii-xii#orm) are : O. Sax. (http://dontgohere.nu/oe/as-bt/read.htm?page_nr=iii-xii#o.sax) ra : O. Frs. (http://dontgohere.nu/oe/as-bt/read.htm?page_nr=iii-xii#o.frs) re : Dut. eer : Ger. ehre, f : M. H. Ger. re : O. H. Ger. (http://dontgohere.nu/oe/as-bt/read.htm?page_nr=iii-xii#o.h.ger) ra : Dan. re : Swed. ra : O. Nrs. (http://dontgohere.nu/oe/as-bt/read.htm?page_nr=iii-xii#o.nrs) ra.]

from http://dontgohere.nu/oe/as-bt/read.htm?page_nr=47

But the compilers are overly cautious in restricting their gaze to the Germanic family. :(

SuuT
Wednesday, June 14th, 2006, 10:56 PM
Sanskrit: Arya = kind , favourable; attached to , true , devoted , dear; excellent, master , lord, a respectable, a man highly esteemed, or honourable or faithful man, an owner
Anglo Saxon: r = honour, worth; glory, dignity; grace, prosperity; kindness, benefit, help (from a Beowulf glossary)
Old German: era
Germanic: erilaz = member of the noble class, Runemaster
German: ehre = honour, honesty, praise
Irish: Aire
Dutch: eer
Greek: αριστος
Ancient Greek: Aristos = best, noblest
Persian: riya
Latin: ars = Art


I've found this so far;

from http://dontgohere.nu/oe/as-bt/read.htm?page_nr=47

But the compilers are overly cautious in restricting their gaze to the Germanic family. :(

Isn't this what was/is most important for you? There you have it!--so how about a :D instead of a :(.

Best wishes Oswiu: I know, now, that you are 'looking'.

Oswiu
Wednesday, June 14th, 2006, 11:29 PM
Isn't this what was/is most important for you? There you have it!--so how about a :D instead of a :(.

Best wishes Oswiu: I know, now, that you are 'looking'.

I always look, but I still haven't found what you claim is there to be found.

All that we have here is a bunch of reflexes of one Germanic noun, a Greek word, and a highly doubtful parallel in Irish, and an Italic word that semantically represents something quite different. Nothing in Baltic, Slavonic, Albanian, PalaeoBalkan, Anatolian, Armenian ...
And none of these words have been sufficiently expounded etymologically and phonetically as true cognates.

So you have found a few western words that seem to have a vague relation to the Indic one, and you use this as an excuse to apply all sorts of Indian occultism and mysticism to us in the west, to whom such a tradition is alien.

SuuT
Thursday, June 15th, 2006, 01:41 AM
I always look, but I still haven't found what you claim is there to be found.

All that we have here is a bunch of reflexes of one Germanic noun, a Greek word, and a highly doubtful parallel in Irish (?: how do the Irish pronounce "Ireland"...), and an Italic word that semantically represents something quite different. Nothing in Baltic, Slavonic, Albanian, PalaeoBalkan, Anatolian, Armenian ...
And none of these words have been sufficiently expounded etymologically and phonetically as true cognates.

So you have found a few western words that seem to have a vague relation to the Indic one, and you use this as an excuse to apply all sorts of Indian occultism and mysticism to us in the west (I do? where?), to whom such a tradition is alien.

And what of the noun "mother"?--(etymologically and phonetically)...

But it really doesn't matter so long as you, as you say that you do, see this (Aryan) as "...a purely linguistic matter"--there could be nothing further from the truth to say that it is that simple! There is an entire symbology, definite cultural cross-overs, indisputable genetic evidence, virtually identical tri-level caste schemata etc. that all contribute to the evidence that has already been presented to you.

I doubt that you could be shown anything that would end your argumentative approach.

If you do not identify with the word, you cannot and will not be identified with it.

That's that.

Agrippa
Thursday, June 15th, 2006, 02:05 AM
All that things come to mind in my case, but primarily (original) Indo-Iranian (people) and (the original) Indoeuropeans in general. I voted vor the later. So, if hearing that word, I think about Late Neolithicum-Bronze Age and early Iron Age Indoeuropeans in general and those which lived from Eastern Europe to India and Turkestan in particular.

If thinking about modern people I might think of some people "looking similar to ancient Aryans", which means a certain racial trait combination, though I know that they were rather variable in all times, certain characteristics seem to have dominated. But even then I would use different terms and think the term is not very useful in a modern context other than thinking about the racial and spiritual base of this ancient people. There are just modern people being closer or further away both by their ethnic culture and racial variant, but there is no direct modern successor in my opinion. In a way the view on the the ancient ones can be idealised, being an ideal in itself, but then again thats rather a construction and abstraction from the original.

SuuT
Thursday, June 15th, 2006, 03:19 AM
All that things come to mind in my case, but primarily (original) Indo-Iranian (people) and (the original) Indoeuropeans in general. I voted vor the later. So, if hearing that word, I think about Late Neolithicum-Bronze Age and early Iron Age Indoeuropeans in general and those which lived from Eastern Europe to India and Turkestan in particular.

If thinking about modern people I might think of some people "looking similar to ancient Aryans", which means a certain racial trait combination, though I know that they were rather variable in all times, certain characteristics seem to have dominated. But even then I would use different terms and think the term is not very useful in a modern context other than thinking about the racial and spiritual base of this ancient people. There are just modern people being closer or further away both by their ethnic culture and racial variant, but there is no direct modern successor in my opinion. In a way the view on the the ancient ones can be idealised, being an ideal in itself, but then again thats rather a construction and abstraction from the original.

I find this a rational and respectable position; and, true to form, psychologically in line with your speciality. However, I wish to re-emphasize the point that one cannot engage in an etiological debate by way of etymological linguistics alone; or by way of modernity. Nor can one reduce the saliency of the point that, most surprisingly, has been utterly lost in the maladies of this thread--the point, again, is this: That Germanic individuals and groups such as Nietzsche, Heidegger, Jung, and the National Socialist party of the Third Reich (who understood the difference between being of a race, in contradisticntion to being of Race) utilized the term all over the place, ought to be enough for the likes of anyone in this forum to have a healty inquisitiveness about it: it's almost as if the entire spiritual and psychophilosophical aspect of the exemplar of National Socialism has been lost in the ether. To be of a race is a biologism; to be of Race is a spiritual and psychophilosophical state of being. When looked at from this perspective, their is no construction or abstraction other than that constructed or abstracted by, to use your words, direct modern successors: the "hyperboreans" of the racialist movement--the union of the priesty and warrior castes, as was also predicted by a GermanoAryan.

Oswiu
Thursday, June 15th, 2006, 03:52 PM
And what of the noun "mother"?--(etymologically and phonetically)...
What of it? It's a good example of how a word can be traced through all branches of the IE family, demonstrating all the linguistic processes specific to each branch. Something TII hasn't done [and yet gives me negative reputation points for daring to ask for it! :fbicycle: :rstrange :D ]

But it really doesn't matter so long as you, as you say that you do, see this (Aryan) as "...a purely linguistic matter"--there could be nothing further from the truth to say that it is that simple!
Within Indian tradition, you're right. But to apply that to me and my own out in the Hesperides...

There is an entire symbology, definite cultural cross-overs, indisputable genetic evidence, virtually identical tri-level caste schemata etc. that all contribute to the evidence that has already been presented to you.
Hmm. We'd better get straight once more for the record, what exactly you are arguing for. Maybe I'll agree with parts of it, maybe I'll think the same thing, but call things by different names?
It is getting a bit pointlessly 'pass the ball', so lets get deeper and see what we mean, eh.

I doubt that you could be shown anything that would end your argumentative approach.
Not at all, I've looked at Thulean II's stuff, and found it wanting. Please fill the gaps.

Tripartite social structures are not so obviously essential a part of Celtic, Germanic, and any other IE folk you care to mention's society, as some people think. Dumezil was an intelligent fellow, but was writing in the dawn of this science.

Eire may have a very different etymology to what you two think. Celtic lost initial P-, and so we could be looking at a *piwerio- type word = "the fat [i.e. luxuriant, rich] land". Sounds far more convincing to me. And when your Aryans found the island there were plenty of dark little trolls left in it from the good old days, so why would they name the island after the race or noble personal attributes of the incomers, seeing as how the earlier peoples remained on the whole? Doesn't make sense.
You're using a very poor bit of evidence here, why not drop the name of Erin, and concentrate on the adjective aire? But that would still demand some serious linguistic treatment. Outwardly, aire seems a good cognate of Germanic ar/Ehre etc. but who knows. The first lesson of historical linguistics is not to trust the seemingly obvious.

If you do not identify with the word, you cannot and will not be identified with it.
That's that.
But if I see people going on about something that I see as absurd, I shouldn't keep silent. Especially when the consequences so affect my people in general.



I very seldomly do this but I really must now. This is absurd. And your lack of understanding of what is Indo-European is clear.

Can you explain yourself here? Seems a bit of an overreaction to me. Is it very hot where you are today, making you all irritable?

SuuT
Thursday, June 15th, 2006, 06:13 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Suut
And what of the noun "mother"?--(etymologically and phonetically)...

What of it? It's a good example of how a word can be traced through all branches of the IE family, demonstrating all the linguistic processes specific to each branch.

Great. Now: what of the word "cousin" ([Middle English cosin, a relative, from Old French, from Latin chttp://cache.lexico.com/dictionary/graphics/AHD4/GIF/omacr.gifnshttp://cache.lexico.com/dictionary/graphics/AHD4/GIF/omacr.gifbrhttp://cache.lexico.com/dictionary/graphics/AHD4/GIF/imacr.gifnus, cousin : com-, com- + shttp://cache.lexico.com/dictionary/graphics/AHD4/GIF/omacr.gifbrhttp://cache.lexico.com/dictionary/graphics/AHD4/GIF/imacr.gifnus, cousin on the mother's side; see swesor- in Indo-European Roots.]

Quote:
But it really doesn't matter so long as you, as you say that you do, see this (Aryan) as "...a purely linguistic matter"--there could be nothing further from the truth to say that it is that simple!

Within Indian tradition, you're right. But to apply that to me and my own out in the Hesperides...

I've not applied it to you; quite the contrary. Read my respone to Agrippa.

Quote:
There is an entire symbology, definite cultural cross-overs, indisputable genetic evidence, virtually identical tri-level caste schemata etc. that all contribute to the evidence that has already been presented to you.

Hmm. We'd better get straight once more for the record, what exactly you are arguing for. Maybe I'll agree with parts of it, maybe I'll think the same thing, but call things by different names?
It is getting a bit pointlessly 'pass the ball', so lets get deeper and see what we mean, eh.

I'm not going to present some opus for you, Oswiu: you can take the comfort, if you wish, in believing that I am not able to do so. This is not the place, nor am I inclined--to be frank--to provide a synopsised version of something that would fill a library shelf with volumes. If if I were willing, it is typical for anything that exceeds 6 or 7 paragraphs; or, at the least, anything that doesn't catch immediate attention by the audience here, for whatever reason, to receive crickets. I have attempted to post small philosophical exegis' in this forum before, and they are forever D.O.A. What I am arguing for is that you do your own investigation, if you are interested; that anyone who is interested do their own investigation. I have provided (now deep within this melee) the best internet link that I am aware of to that end. Which, if you remember, was blown-off as inapplicable by yourself.

Quote:
I doubt that you could be shown anything that would end your argumentative approach.

Not at all, I've looked at Thulean II's stuff, and found it wanting. Please fill the gaps.

No problem:
http://uk.groups.yahoo.com/group/Aryanosophy/?tab=s (http://uk.groups.yahoo.com/group/Aryanosophy/?tab=s)


... And when your Aryans found the island there were plenty of dark little trolls left in it from the good old days, so why would they name the island after the race or noble personal attributes of the incomers, seeing as how the earlier peoples remained on the whole? Doesn't make sense.

This is akin to saying that there are no historical examples of what initially begins as placation of a new master's mores and folkways ending up as the predominant mores and folkways of a later population.

You're using a very poor bit of evidence here, why not drop the name of Erin, and concentrate on the adjective aire? But that would still demand some serious linguistic treatment. Outwardly, aire seems a good cognate of Germanic ar/Ehre etc. but who knows. The first lesson of historical linguistics is not to trust the seemingly obvious.

This is a bit of a back-peddle; but you couldn't be more correct from your own vantage point (of this being a purely linguistic matter). Moreover, that which is convincing is not necessarily true--it is merely convincing. Your missing out on an opportunity to read between the lines: you have been given the means.

Quote:
If you do not identify with the word, you cannot and will not be identified with it.

That's that.

But if I see people going on about something that I see as absurd, I shouldn't keep silent. Especially when the consequences so affect my people in general.

The only negative consequences that would result is if "your people" subscribed to your nescient perception of a term and capricious objectivity. After all, it is, for you, a purely linguistic matter, no? Again, my reply to Agrippa is pertinent here.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Thulean Imperial Inquisitor in his negative reputation point

I very seldomly do this but I really must now. This is absurd. And your lack of understanding of what is Indo-European is clear.


... Seems a bit of an overreaction to me...

Actually, I considered giving you one as well in the beginning; the only thing that stopped me is that this polylogue is going on (ironically) in 'the Lounge'.

Oswiu
Friday, June 16th, 2006, 01:47 AM
Great. Now: what of the word "cousin" ([Middle English cosin, a relative, from Old French, from Latin chttp://cache.lexico.com/dictionary/graphics/AHD4/GIF/omacr.gifnshttp://cache.lexico.com/dictionary/graphics/AHD4/GIF/omacr.gifbrhttp://cache.lexico.com/dictionary/graphics/AHD4/GIF/imacr.gifnus, cousin : com-, com- + shttp://cache.lexico.com/dictionary/graphics/AHD4/GIF/omacr.gifbrhttp://cache.lexico.com/dictionary/graphics/AHD4/GIF/imacr.gifnus, cousin on the mother's side; see swesor- in Indo-European Roots.]
Very nice, now let's see that for Ir. aire, Lat. ars, Germanic *ar- [or whatever it would be in the Common ancestor of Ehre and Ar].
And what of it. I don't see Afghan esoterists jumping on this word cousin to make up a term for their spiritual revivalist group. As that's what you're proposing in analogy; "hey, these other IE speakers also have a word from the root swesor! Let us call ourselves cousinians!"
You have a fetish for the East, and for Deutsch thought of two short generations in millenia of Germanic history.

I'm not going to present some opus for you, Oswiu: you can take the comfort, if you wish, in believing that I am not able to do so. This is not the place, nor am I inclined--to be frank--to provide a synopsised version of something that would fill a library shelf with volumes. If if I were willing, it is typical for anything that exceeds 6 or 7 paragraphs; or, at the least, anything that doesn't catch immediate attention by the audience here, for whatever reason, to receive crickets. I have attempted to post small philosophical exegis' in this forum before, and they are forever D.O.A. What I am arguing for is that you do your own investigation, if you are interested; that anyone who is interested do their own investigation. I have provided (now deep within this melee) the best internet link that I am aware of to that end. Which, if you remember, was blown-off as inapplicable by yourself.
WhaT are crickets and DOA?
Okay, you've given me a resource to look through, but haven't told me what it is I should be looking for there and why.
If you and TII truly are privy to great lifechanging knowledge hereto restricted to the few, then there's no reason to go round proclaiming it as obvious truth without explaining yourselves to your fellows.

This is a bit of a back-peddle; but you couldn't be more correct from your own vantage point (of this being a purely linguistic matter). Moreover, that which is convincing is not necessarily true--it is merely convincing. Your missing out on an opportunity to read between the lines: you have been given the means.
I don't understand what you're getting at here.

Actually, I considered giving you one as well in the beginning
That's rich from someone who's disabled the system for himself!

Hmm, I wonder sometimes, are you hinting occasionally here that your modern Aryan idea is admittedly a construct, on some rather shaky historical foundations, but in itself a good workable thing that, if applied [and perhaps it might be necessary to promulgate a white lie to achieve this], would be for the greater good? That wouldn't be such a bad thing. Perhaps I could go along with that. But in the end the truth will out, and will come back with a vengeance on those who hid it.

SuuT
Friday, June 16th, 2006, 02:29 AM
I'll continue to dialogue with your salient points:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Suut
Great. Now: what of the word "cousin" ([Middle English cosin, a relative, from Old French, from Latin chttp://cache.lexico.com/dictionary/graphics/AHD4/GIF/omacr.gifnshttp://cache.lexico.com/dictionary/graphics/AHD4/GIF/omacr.gifbrhttp://cache.lexico.com/dictionary/graphics/AHD4/GIF/imacr.gifnus, cousin : com-, com- + shttp://cache.lexico.com/dictionary/graphics/AHD4/GIF/omacr.gifbrhttp://cache.lexico.com/dictionary/graphics/AHD4/GIF/imacr.gifnus, cousin on the mother's side; see swesor- in Indo-European Roots.]


Very nice, now let's see that for Ir. aire, Lat. ars, Germanic *ar- [or whatever it would be in the Common ancestor of Ehre and Ar].
And what of it.

If you are willing to follow me on this, and not be reactionary, there is the shortest lesson possible at the end to demonstrate the depth and breadth of your obdurance.

Quote:
I'm not going to present some opus for you, Oswiu: you can take the comfort, if you wish, in believing that I am not able to do so. This is not the place, nor am I inclined--to be frank--to provide a synopsised version of something that would fill a library shelf with volumes. If if I were willing, it is typical for anything that exceeds 6 or 7 paragraphs; or, at the least, anything that doesn't catch immediate attention by the audience here, for whatever reason, to receive crickets. I have attempted to post small philosophical exegis' in this forum before, and they are forever D.O.A. What I am arguing for is that you do your own investigation, if you are interested; that anyone who is interested do their own investigation. I have provided (now deep within this melee) the best internet link that I am aware of to that end. Which, if you remember, was blown-off as inapplicable by yourself.

WhaT are crickets (Metaphor: Silence due to a lack of understanding) and DOA (Dead on arrival)?

Okay, you've given me a resource to look through, but haven't told me what it is I should be looking for there and why.

You ought (shoulds and oughts are mutually exclusive) to be looking for the answers/evidence that you have thus far requested.



Quote:
... you have been given the means.

I don't understand what you're getting at here.

You have been given the means to answer your own questions.

Quote:
Actually, I considered giving you one as well in the beginning

That's rich from someone who's disabled the system for himself!

Were 'Lounging', but please, try to stay on point. But I will answer: I can (and have) receive(d) both negative and positive reputation points. I have disabled the ability of others to view it as I, like many others here, find it a meaningless and illusory democratic audit. The truth of its even being here is that Administration surely understands the need to placate the democratic imprint of the 'mass', be it Germanic or otherwise.

This is becomming tiresome, Oswiu. I cannot be twisted into an inapplicable dialectic; nor am I succeptible to the ego-tease of fallacious reasoning/logic. I have the patience of a god (yes, this is hyperbole); but also the indifference of one, should I elect to be so.

Oswiu
Friday, June 16th, 2006, 02:39 AM
I have the patience of a god (yes, this is hyperbole); but also the indifference of one, should I elect to be so.
Got the right avatar, anyroad. THe Lion's had enough of lying down with the Lamb, then? ;)