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View Full Version : Sami Salo: Perfect finnish Hallstatt?



Hurja
Sunday, June 4th, 2006, 03:59 PM
Hi!
I've been searching for nordid looking finnish celebrities for a while and I've managed to come up with several good examples. The most shining example I was able to found was probably this person, and now I'd like to hear some classifications about him.
Could he be classified as Hallstatt/Göta type?

The person is hockey player Sami Salo, and he originates from Paimio, which is a community of about 10 000 inhabitants at the southwestern coast of Finland.
The pictures might be quite small but I hope they are good enough for the classification. Some more pictures about Salo are available here
http://www.vcn.bc.ca/purpurit/gallery/view_album.php?set_albumName=Olympians

Digitalseal
Sunday, June 4th, 2006, 04:04 PM
Skando-Nordid is dominant, minor C.M. admixture.

goldgrube
Sunday, June 4th, 2006, 04:05 PM
more like trřnder

Lissu
Sunday, June 4th, 2006, 04:15 PM
I think he's more Trönderish. He's too robust for a Hallstatt. Battle-Axe type perhaps?

Blood_Axis
Sunday, June 4th, 2006, 04:22 PM
I think he's more Trönderish. He's too robust for a Hallstatt. Battle-Axe type perhaps?
I think so too :)

Lissu
Sunday, June 4th, 2006, 04:25 PM
As for Finnish Hallstatts, Darude might be rather good example...

http://www.artistdirect.com/Images/artd/amg/music/bio/1037251_darude_200x200.jpg

Agrippa
Sunday, June 4th, 2006, 04:41 PM
Yes, rather Troender like, Eastnordid with Cromagnoid influence.

This Darude-guy seems to be a better example indeed:
http://usuarios.lycos.es/edurak/darude.jpg
http://www.juergen-langenberg.de/music/juke/portraits/darude.jpg

vingul
Sunday, June 4th, 2006, 05:58 PM
Corded and CM traits are rather pronounced, so I agree that a Trřnder classification is more fitting. Still Nordoid.

Hurja
Sunday, June 4th, 2006, 06:19 PM
Thanks for all those responses.
I was having an assumption that Salo represents the nordic race in as pure form as can be found in Finland. But if you're saying that he's a Trönder, I'd better agree and study some more about the race.

And I'm having a hard time to believe that Darude (or Ville Virtanen) is a Hallstatt type. I fail to see much common features between with him and for example Max von Sydow who is listed as a Hallstatt at the Northern European forum. Darude's eyes look too 'eastern' for a Hallstatt imo.

vingul
Sunday, June 4th, 2006, 06:27 PM
Aside:


I fail to see much common features between with him and for example Max von Sydow who is listed as a Hallstatt at the Northern European forum.

(my emphasis)

Do you mean www.nordish.com? We are not actually associated with TNP.

Agrippa
Sunday, June 4th, 2006, 06:33 PM
In the thread about contraselection and war losses I used Finnish examples too.
http://forums.skadi.net/showthread.php?t=38300

This Finnish war heros have a very strong Nordid component, many are at least pred. Nordid:
http://www.ilmavoimat.fi/index.php?id=37

Some examples of clear Nordid predominance in my opinion:
http://www.ilmavoimat.fi/filebank/2625-puhakka.jpg
http://www.ilmavoimat.fi/filebank/2615-karhunen.jpg
http://www.ilmavoimat.fi/filebank/2614-maunula.jpg

vingul
Sunday, June 4th, 2006, 06:43 PM
Essentially Hallstatt/Skandonordid:
http://www.ilmavoimat.fi/filebank/2615-karhunen.jpg

More on the Corded side of things:
http://www.ilmavoimat.fi/filebank/2614-maunula.jpg

IMO

bittercreek
Sunday, June 4th, 2006, 06:47 PM
Jarkko Nieminen - Which type of Nordid?

http://forums.skadi.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=45325&stc=1&d=1132865278
http://forums.skadi.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=45321&stc=1&d=1132865278

Agrippa
Sunday, June 4th, 2006, 06:48 PM
Essentially Hallstatt/Skandonordid:
http://www.ilmavoimat.fi/filebank/2615-karhunen.jpg

More on the Corded side of things:
http://www.ilmavoimat.fi/filebank/2614-maunula.jpg

IMO

Correct, the later is too high skulled for a Western (standard) Nordid, rather Eastnordid/Corded indeed. Still all Nordid, Eastnordids being more common in Finnland I'd say.

Hurja
Sunday, June 4th, 2006, 06:49 PM
Aside:



(my emphasis)

Do you mean www.nordish.com (http://www.nordish.com)? We are not actually associated with TNP.


Yes, that was the site I was referring to but I mixed up TNP and the SNPA in my mind. I had no intention to advertise TNP.

vingul
Sunday, June 4th, 2006, 06:52 PM
Jarkko Nieminen - Which type of Nordid?

Pred. Skandonordid/Hallstatt with CM influence (e.g. the superorbital region), so bordering on Trřnder in the more general sense of the term. He must have a very low c.i.

Fred
Sunday, June 4th, 2006, 07:24 PM
What about Hannu Tihinen?
http://users.telenet.be/bclede/anderlecht-online/images/layout/players/tihinen1.jpg

vingul
Sunday, June 4th, 2006, 07:37 PM
What about Hannu Tihinen?
http://users.telenet.be/bclede/anderlecht-online/images/layout/players/tihinen1.jpg

Even more typically Skandonordid/Hallstatt, imo. Other influence is in any case low-level, so he is well within the Nordid range.

vingul
Sunday, June 4th, 2006, 07:37 PM
Yes, that was the site I was referring to but I mixed up TNP and the SNPA in my mind. I had no intention to advertise TNP.

:thumbup

Nicola_Canadian
Sunday, June 4th, 2006, 07:39 PM
I think Halstatts are extremely rare people... Most of Nordid people are rather Keltic, Tronder or East Nordid... It is really hard to find a Nordid without any influence of Cromagnid, because CM is pretty much the base of any Nordid... The question is how much CM got reduced...

Lissu
Sunday, June 4th, 2006, 07:44 PM
How about this one?

http://turuntori.com/tiedostot/251.jpg http://www.suomenlinna.fi/%7Epekka/linkit/kapt.gifhttp://www.suomenlinna.fi/%7Epekka/linkit/larryt.gif

A man who fought under 3 flags against communism...

Lauri Törni A.K.A Larry Thorne, who fought first in Finnish Army, then Waffen SS and finally in the U.S army until his helicopter was shot down in Vietnam. His remains were found few years ago.

Mannerheim
Sunday, June 4th, 2006, 07:47 PM
Thanks for all those responses.
I was having an assumption that Salo represents the nordic race in as pure form as can be found in Finland. But if you're saying that he's a Trönder, I'd better agree and study some more about the race.

And I'm having a hard time to believe that Darude (or Ville Virtanen) is a Hallstatt type. I fail to see much common features between with him and for example Max von Sydow who is listed as a Hallstatt at the Northern European forum. Darude's eyes look too 'eastern' for a Hallstatt imo.

That is same thing what i thought also.

Darudes eyes indeed look eastern and he is still classified nordid.

Maybe more like nordid + east-baltid ?

And other what i have wondered is Cate Blanchett.

She was classified here as keltic-nordid though her eyes look more like east-baltid imho.

Mannerheim
Sunday, June 4th, 2006, 07:49 PM
How about this one?

http://turuntori.com/tiedostot/251.jpg http://www.suomenlinna.fi/%7Epekka/linkit/kapt.gifhttp://www.suomenlinna.fi/%7Epekka/linkit/larryt.gif

A man who fought under 3 flags against communism...


He was also in the ss.

Certainly nordid.

vingul
Sunday, June 4th, 2006, 07:55 PM
I think Halstatts are extremely rare people... Most of Nordid people are rather Keltic, Tronder or East Nordid... It is really hard to find a Nordid without any influence of Cromagnid, because CM is pretty much the base of any Nordid... The question is how much CM got reduced...

I believe this argument, which is an oft-repeated one, results initially from a widespread and largely unconscious meta-classification of "Nordid vs. everything else", which means that Nordids one one hand are classified in a very meticulous fashion, according to how few "impurities" they contain, whereas Dalo-Falids, Borrebys, Baltids etc. on the other hand get a much more lenient treatment, allowing for an enormous (and sometimes self-defeating) range of internal variation. Hallstatts, like all anthropological types, have a internal variational range, and they do not become "rare" until one excludes all non-textbook types (=80-90%?).

Hallstatts are not among the planet's commonest types, but they are still very common (albeit not dominant) in southern Scandinavia.

Nicola_Canadian
Sunday, June 4th, 2006, 07:57 PM
Even more typically Skandonordid/Hallstatt, imo. Other influence is in any case low-level, so he is well within the Nordid range.

Indeed, Halstatt... BTW Vingul, notice his prominent zygomatas!

vingul
Sunday, June 4th, 2006, 07:59 PM
Indeed, Halstatt... BTW Vingul, notice his prominent zygomatas!

I do not think they are prominent, however they do stand out in relief, which is a Nordid trait.

vingul
Sunday, June 4th, 2006, 08:02 PM
It is really hard to find a Nordid without any influence of Cromagnid, because CM is pretty much the base of any Nordid...

Btw, I find this to be somewhat circular. If we consider that a stabilized CM influence is part of the Hallstatt definition, then only CM influence which exceeds that which is inherent in the definition (and which is passed on with phenotypical stability) is really "CM influence" ...

Lissu
Sunday, June 4th, 2006, 08:09 PM
I believe Finlands Nordid component is mainly of Battle-Axe type, sometimes called as East Nordid and which arrived in Finland along with Battle-Axe culture...

Agrippa
Sunday, June 4th, 2006, 08:15 PM
Btw, I find this to be somewhat circular. If we consider that a stabilized CM influence is part of the Hallstatt definition, then only CM influence which exceeds that which is inherent in the definition (and which is passed on with phenotypical stability) is really "CM influence" ...

Finally most Europid types have Cromagnoid influence of different prehistoric Cromagnoid variants and of different degrees. Whats crucial is: They changed and new types being formed, whether they were related by ancestry or not. After the new type was formed, the border to still typical Cromagnoids should be quite clear and every new mixture or deviating development towards a Cromagnoid spectrum is a deviation from the standard of the new formed racial form, no matter if the ancestral form had a Cromagnoid part or not.

Otherwise we could argue back to archaic sapiens forms - different specialisations and developments being crucial for racial differentiation and type formation, not necessarily ancestry.

vingul
Sunday, June 4th, 2006, 08:16 PM
I believe Finlands Nordid component is mainly of Battle-Axe type, sometimes called as East Nordid and which arrived in Finland along with Battle-Axe culture...

I am beginning to think so myself, after having seen a great many Finns lately. You still see classic Swedish-looking Skandonordids/Hallstatts, but they seem to be outweighed by more Corded-type Nordids. I guess these could be subsumed in the general East-Nordid category, for whatever it's worth.

vingul
Sunday, June 4th, 2006, 08:19 PM
After the new type was formed, the border to still typical Cromagnoids should be quite clear and every new mixture or deviating development towards a Cromagnoid spectrum is a deviation from the standard of the new formed racial form, no matter if the ancestral form had a Cromagnoid part or not.

Well said. However, the "standard" should in any case conform to the entire spectrum of anticipated internal variation (not just the ideal of a type specimen), that "leeway" which we might expect if the "purebred" population were completely isolated.

Nicola_Canadian
Sunday, June 4th, 2006, 08:23 PM
I believe this argument, which is an oft-repeated one, results initially from a widespread and largely unconscious meta-classification of "Nordid vs. everything else", which means that Nordids one one hand are classified in a very meticulous fashion, according to how few "impurities" they contain, whereas Dalo-Falids, Borrebys, Baltids etc. on the other hand get a much more lenient treatment, allowing for an enormous (and sometimes self-defeating) range of internal variation. Hallstatts, like all anthropological types, have a internal variational range, and they do not become "rare" until one excludes all non-textbook types (=80-90%?).

Hallstatts are not among the planet's commonest types, but they are still very common (albeit not dominant) in southern Scandinavia.

That is interesting... So the textbook example of Halstatt in fact has a prominent (to some reasonable extend) zygomatas - i.e. non-Nordid feature??? It may be so, but I think it became pretty much common feature among Halstatts... It is hard to find a Halstatt without prominent zygomatas - like e.g. von Sydow...

Could you plz also clarify what you mean by "internal variation of Halstatt"??? Any examples?

Agrippa
Sunday, June 4th, 2006, 08:27 PM
Well said. However, the "standard" should in any case conform to the entire spectrum of anticipated internal variation (not just the ideal of a type specimen), that "leeway" which we might expect if the "purebred" population were completely isolated.

Yes, but the "ideal type" has the purpose of making a orientation and showing the direction. However, the standard should be oriented on the living like they exist and not a theoretical construct which can be rarely found even in a relatively "pure" population.

Nicola_Canadian
Sunday, June 4th, 2006, 08:31 PM
Comparing to Halstatt, East Nordid/ Battle Axe/Corded Nordic type has even more prominent zygomatas making their face (slightly) wider... The length of the skull of East Nordid/ Battle Axe/Corded Nordic is still big while the height is way bigger... Good comparison of skulls -


http://i75.photobucket.com/albums/i308/Nicola_Canadian/skulls.jpg

vingul
Sunday, June 4th, 2006, 08:32 PM
That is interesting... So the textbook example of Halstatt in fact has a prominent (to some reasonable extend) zygomatas - i.e. non-Nordid feature??? It may be so, but I think it became pretty much common feature among Halstatts... It is hard to find a Halstatt without prominent zygomatas - like e.g. von Sydow...

What you are describing is not prominence, but relief. Prominent zygoma are such as you see among e.g. Lappoids. I do not actually think we are at odds here.


Could you plz also clarify what you mean by "internal variation of Halstatt"??? Any examples?

All anthropologically distinct populations/population elements are characterized by internal variation. In a hypothetical group of isolated Hallstatts, a few are still bound to be brachycephalic, while retaining every single other Hallstatt feature; a few are bound to have a concave nose, with all other textbook features intact. The same goes for all features. This is internal variation, which is not caused by external influx, but is a necessary fact as it relates to the potential for natural selection. So we sometimes stumble upon an individual who conforms to a particular type in every feature but one - this one feature does not necessitate external influence; it may result from that, but not necessarily.

vingul
Sunday, June 4th, 2006, 08:34 PM
Yes, but the "ideal type" has the purpose of making a orientation and showing the direction. However, the standard should be oriented on the living like they exist and not a theoretical construct which can be rarely found even in a relatively "pure" population.

That is exactly what I mean. Type specimens are few and far between.

vingul
Sunday, June 4th, 2006, 08:36 PM
Comparing to Halstatt, East Nordid/ Battle Axe/Corded Nordic type has even more prominent zygomatas making their face (slightly) wider...

But you are still comparing Nordids to Mediterranids, who have some of the least protruding zygoma of all Europids. :)

Nicola_Canadian
Sunday, June 4th, 2006, 08:42 PM
But you are still comparing Nordids to Mediterranids, who have some of the least protruding zygoma of all Europids. :)

Hmm, Med type is obviously Fig 13... I refer to the comparison of Fig. 14 and Fig. 15...

Agrippa
Sunday, June 4th, 2006, 08:46 PM
Hmm, Med type is obviously Fig 13... I refer to the comparison of Fig. 14 and Fig. 15...

Long Barrow is usually considered being Atlantomediterranid-like from what I know.
I saw better examples for Corded in my opinion.

vingul
Sunday, June 4th, 2006, 08:49 PM
Long Barrow is usually considered being Atlantomediterranid-like from what I know.

Yes, Coon considered them a more robust Megalithic type (i.e. Atlanto-Med).

Nicola_Canadian
Sunday, June 4th, 2006, 08:49 PM
Long Barrow is usually considered being Atlantomediterranid-like from what I know.
I saw better examples for Corded in my opinion.

Could you plz present them?...

Nicola_Canadian
Sunday, June 4th, 2006, 08:51 PM
Yes, Coon considered them a more robust Megalithic type (i.e. Atlanto-Med).

Because of lower facial height?

vingul
Sunday, June 4th, 2006, 08:55 PM
Because of lower facial height?

Because of size. They were larger than Corded people, e.g.

But the Long Barrow folk are indeed lower-faced than your average Atlanto-Med, and Coon remarked upon this as well.

http://www.snpa.skadi.net/chapter-IV10.htm

Also:

"LONG BARROW. An earth covered Megalithic tumulus found principally in the British Isles. Also, the exaggeratedly long-headed Mediterranean racial type associated with these burials. See p. 111."

(from his glossary)

Agrippa
Sunday, June 4th, 2006, 09:20 PM
The classic Neolithic groups: LBK, Corded, Bell Beaker:
http://img406.imageshack.us/img406/9003/neolithiker3an.th.jpg (http://img406.imageshack.us/my.php?image=neolithiker3an.jpg)

Skulls from Balanovo which fall mostly in this category too:
http://img305.imageshack.us/img305/9079/balanovo5pv.th.jpg (http://img305.imageshack.us/my.php?image=balanovo5pv.jpg)

Schnurkeramiker (Corded) from Germany:
http://img305.imageshack.us/img305/7115/schnurkeramiker7se.th.jpg (http://img305.imageshack.us/my.php?image=schnurkeramiker7se.jpg)

Nicola_Canadian
Sunday, June 4th, 2006, 09:26 PM
Thank you, Agrippa...

Well, I think the Balanovo skulls (of Gerasimov reconstruction) are pretty close to Fig 15 of my example... Same goes for Schnurkeramiker (Corded) from Germany...

Agrippa
Sunday, June 4th, 2006, 09:28 PM
http://www.snpa.skadi.net/chapter-IV10.htm

Also:

"LONG BARROW. An earth covered Megalithic tumulus found principally in the British Isles. Also, the exaggeratedly long-headed Mediterranean racial type associated with these burials. See p. 111."

(from his glossary)

Thats particularly important:


The Long Barrow people, who had come by water, selected open, unforested country to live in. A large part of the land area in the British Isles was, therefore, either uninhabited or open to the wanderings of earlier human occupants.

The same is true for the Corded expansions (which happened in the inland of course) and that of most mobile groups of progressive character which expanded in the Neolithicum and Bronze Age. They just took what was favourable for them, but didnt occupied other areas, in which other, older, partly more primitive elements could survive well, though they often had to adapt to the more unfavourable area in which they were pushed, until they finally met and usually mixed with them as well as with the other groups with which they met (f.e. Bell Beakers + Corded in parts of Central Europe etc.).

Agrippa
Sunday, June 4th, 2006, 09:30 PM
Thank you, Agrippa...

Well, I think the Balanovo skulls (of Gerasimov reconstruction) are pretty close to Fig 15 of my example... Same goes for Schnurkeramiker (Corded) from Germany...

Sure, they are of the same basic type, I never said something else. I just thought of it being probably extreme in some characteristics which are not that pronounced on other, as or even more typical Corded skulls.

Nicola_Canadian
Sunday, June 4th, 2006, 09:43 PM
So returning back to the prominent zygomatas (or relief as vingul says) in Nordics and especially in Halstatts... Do you think that it is a Cromagnoid admix or something that is very common among Halstatts and can be considered a typical feature??? Like say this text book example -

http://www.snpa.skadi.net/bilder/troe291.jpg

Nicola_Canadian
Sunday, June 4th, 2006, 11:17 PM
Another interesting thing about the East Nordid/Corded/Battle Axe is that none of the pics shown above indicate a "flat-top" of the skull... The latter is common among other Nordics and Meds... And probably that is the reason why East Nordids are considered high-headed...

Agrippa
Sunday, June 4th, 2006, 11:27 PM
Another interesting thing about the East Nordid/Corded/Battle Axe is that none of the pics shown above indicate a "flat-top" of the skull... The latter is common among other Nordics and Meds... And probably that is the reason why East Nordids are considered high-headed...

Interesting observation indeed. Its interesting to note that they are similar, in this regard, to Dinaroids but dissimilar to most Mediterranid and many Western Nordid forms.

vingul
Monday, June 5th, 2006, 12:09 PM
So returning back to the prominent zygomatas (or relief as vingul says) in Nordics and especially in Halstatts... Do you think that it is a Cromagnoid admix or something that is very common among Halstatts and can be considered a typical feature??? Like say this text book example -

http://www.snpa.skadi.net/bilder/troe291.jpg

On the Řsterdal (=Hallstatt) type, of which this plate is an example:

"The malars, small in size, are typically flattened in front. The zygomatic arches, however, are often bowed outward enough to give the face a pentagonoid appearance. This appearance is due to the flatness of the temples and the thinness of the soft parts of the arches, rather than to their skeletal prominence."

- Coon, Ch. IX Pt. 4 (http://www.snpa.skadi.net/chapter-IX4.htm)

vingul
Monday, June 5th, 2006, 12:15 PM
Another interesting thing about the East Nordid/Corded/Battle Axe is that none of the pics shown above indicate a "flat-top" of the skull... The latter is common among other Nordics and Meds... And probably that is the reason why East Nordids are considered high-headed...

"Bregmoid flattening", presumably? Do you happen to know which other groups are characterized by this feature?