View Full Version : Racial Types of Finno-Ugrians, Baltisation and Eastbaltids

Thursday, May 18th, 2006, 09:03 PM
Racial Types of Finno-Ugrians and Eastbaltids

Mainly a summary of various posts on Dodona and elsewhere.

Finns are the result of mixture of various European and non-European groups according to classic anthropologists. I'm always speaking about phenotypical feature-combinations:

The elements which participated primarily are Nordid, Cromagnoid/Protoeuropid and Westsibirid-Mongoloid. The Nordid elements came mainly with Indoeuropeans of the Corded-Battle Axe and related groups to Finland and wheras Indoeuropeanised Finno-Ugrians in minority became Balts and Slavs, where Finno-Ugrians dominated Finns and Estonians came up (Baltic Sea Finns).

The basic element was Cromagnoid but partly mixed with Mongoloids, depending on the ratio and the selective pressure working on the elements more Europid or more part-Mongolid forms evolved out of that basic mixture of Nordid-Cromagnoid forms with Mongoloids = Osteuropid spectrum.
Largely unreduced and not Lappoid influenced basic Cromagnoid variants = Westbaltid; more borealised (adapted for cold and rather unfavourable conditions), brachymorphised, partly reduced, very slight Mongoloid influence possible = Baltid (standard). Stronger Borealisation, reduction, adaptation for very unfavourable conditions and more Lappoid influenced = Eastbaltid.
Lappoids themselves are the result of a mixture of reduced Cromagnoids which were pushed away by mobile groups coming from the South (first new, more progressive Cromagnoids which were still hunter and gatherers, later Indoeuropean Nordoids which were mobile farmers and strongly relied on animal husbandry, were partly just pastoralists) and had a higher ratio of Mongoloid admixture.

Westsibirids are an intermediate form with both Mongoloid and Europoid features and seem to have influenced parts of North Eastern Europe too.

The result is this racial composition of Finno-Ugrians:
http://img401.imageshack.us/img401/2920/finnougrier13ja.th.jpg (http://img401.imageshack.us/my.php?image=finnougrier13ja.jpg)

Some argue that certain features are both rather primitive-protomorphic and/or cold adaptation without direct Mongoloid influence, but what I read recently convinced me of an influence which can be just called Mongoloid in the Comb-Ceramic group.

I think that the Pit-Comb-Ware culture was for Finno-Ugrians as important as Corded Ware-Battle Axe for Indoeuropeans and its quite sure that at least greater parts of this group were Finno-Ugrians. This explains why the Baltic Finns have so many words from Indoeuropeans too, because the Corded People, herder-farmer groups brought new social structures, techniques and ways of thinking to this basic hunter-gatherers.

The distribution of the found artifacts is approximately as follows: Finnmark (Norway) in the north, river Kalix (Sweden) and the Gulf of Bothnia (Finland) in the west and the river Wisla (Poland) in the south. In the east the Comb Ceramic pottery of North-Western Russia merges with a continuum of resembling ceramic styles ranging towards the Ural mountains. It would include the Narva culture of Lithuania and the Sperrings culture in Finland, among others. They are thought to have been essentially hunter-gatherers, though e.g. the Narva culture in Lithuania shows some evidence of agriculture. Some of this region was absorbed by the later Corded Ware horizon.


Mongoloid admixture and tendencies were proven in parts of the Pit-Comb-Ware culture too. Eastern affinities are clear in some groups.

Corded/Fatjanovo reconstructions:
http://img499.imageshack.us/img499/1357/fatyanovo5gt6ls.th.jpg (http://img499.imageshack.us/my.php?image=fatyanovo5gt6ls.jpg)
http://img348.imageshack.us/img348/7706/fatyanovo26zb7kb.th.jpg (http://img348.imageshack.us/my.php?image=fatyanovo26zb7kb.jpg)
Inside the Nordoid range definitely. A basic, classic European form with very progressive and mature-virile traits.

Comparison of a) Uralic [Lappoid] and b) Europid:
http://img184.imageshack.us/img184/1804/kajafig17se5iv.th.jpg (http://img184.imageshack.us/my.php?image=kajafig17se5iv.jpg)

More Lappoid Comb Ceramic people reconstructions:
http://img184.imageshack.us/img184/1384/karavaicha1combceramic5vf.th.jpg (http://img184.imageshack.us/my.php?image=karavaicha1combceramic5vf.j pg)

http://img440.imageshack.us/img440/32/karavaicha2combceramics0bp.th.jpg (http://img440.imageshack.us/my.php?image=karavaicha2combceramics0bp. jpg)

The position of various prehistoric groups of North Eastern Europe on gradient from Europid to Mongolid:
http://img314.imageshack.us/img314/9804/europidmongolidneolithic8jh.th.jpg (http://img314.imageshack.us/my.php?image=europidmongolidneolithic8jh .jpg)

Neolithic skulls, 1. LBK, 2. Corded, 3. Bell Beaker:
http://img336.imageshack.us/img336/9036/neolithiker8eu.th.jpg (http://img336.imageshack.us/my.php?image=neolithiker8eu.jpg)

Neolithic clusters, Fatjanovo clusters with Central German Corded Ware people:
http://img336.imageshack.us/img336/6296/cluster8cr.th.jpg (http://img336.imageshack.us/my.php?image=cluster8cr.jpg)

Both from I. Schwidetzky.

Some comments of Denisova, very important for the Cromagnoid component:

At this time, facial width distinctly separated morphological forms in Northern Europe from those in the Mediterranean region -- two distinct geographic regions. Massive, broad-faced morphological forms dominated in northern and northeastern Europe, while gracile, narrow-faced forms are found most often in Middle Europe and the continent's southeastern reaches. During the Atlantic period, narrow-faced populations gradually moved in the northerly and northeasterly direction. They reached the Baltic region only during the Bronze Age. For this reason, during the Mesolithic and Neolithic period, people in the Baltic region (and surrounding regions) had broad faces, a fact which affirms their links to the late Paleolithic populations of Europe. This does not by any means suggest, however, that all of the Mesolithic and early Neolithic populations of Northern Europe were identical from the anthropological standpoint. At least two gradations of facial width (135-142 mm in one group and 144-150 in the other) can be found in this territory. Other characteristics for race specification, moreover, suggest that the most ancient residents of Latvia had several different morphological forms.
Nevertheless it seems that the territory which in the Mesolithic period was populated by distinctly broad-faced individuals can be defined quite specifically. These inhabitants did not disappear over time. Their successors continued to inhabit Eastern Europe in the early Neolithic period, although their territory, possibly, diminished considerably. It is thought, for example, that these people were no longer present in Latvia during the Atlantic period.
During the early Neolithic period, similar residents populated the Upper Volga and Upper Oka, the area in which the Upper Volga culture prevailed (unpublished data by the author). The same anthropological type was also found among early Neolithic residents of the Dnieper-Donetz culture of Ukraine (Gohman 1996;Konduktorova 1973). The large number of skulls found in this region provide a very complete understanding of the anthropological type of the massive, broad-faced (145-153 mm on average) inhabitants of the region, and they allow us to conclude firmly that such inhabitants existed in the Mesolithic and early Neolithic period. It is possible that residents of the same background also continued to populate Denmark (Stasevang, Kolderod, Dojringe) during the same period.


Thats correct, Denmark at this time was more Cromagnoid too and this type evolved to modern Borrebies/Nordalpinoids.

There was a continuity from such Eastern European variants from Neolithic times to modernity f.e. in the Balticum. For Lithuania its said that on the countryside to this day the more Eastern regions are more Osteuropid ("Finnic", Cromagnoid-Lappoid) influenced and the West is Nordid of a kind we can observe in unmixed Fatjanovo and Balanovo skulls, with the later being mixed and Baltised later.

In most cases we see both peaceful assimilation and transfer and violence. Finally we are speaking about rather small unities, clan-size most of the time, maximal small tribes, which came in to contact. Its fully understandable that sometimes violence solved a potential conflict and in another case a rather peaceful contact dominated.

Concerning the relations to Indoeuropeans, both happened, Indoeuropeans "becoming" Finno-Ugrians and vice versa.

Compare with:

Thursday, May 18th, 2006, 09:33 PM
[cont.] Some Finno-ugric tribes, the Ugrian Vogules and Ostjaks have advanced or been forced far east, into Sibiria (and Sibirian poverty). They now however racially almost completely belong to the very brachykephalic ”pre-Mongol” Obine race of these areas. A third Ugrian tribe on the other hand, the Hungarians, became a steppe people and ended up in a completely different region. Important for our purposes is that the Hungarians of those regions where they are the most racially pure, the so-called Szeklians of Transsylvania, are still highly blond and East Baltic (generally Hungarians are darker).


During this period the Finno-Ugrians apparently had rather intensive cultural contacts with the Eastern European, “Aryan” Steppe peoples to the south, to which there are still many loan words to bear witness. The weak analogies of word formation, etc. (“vocal harmony” of a certain more distinct type) should probably also be able to explain by some manner of (maybe indirect) contacts during this period, possibly via the subjugated aborigin population.

In the last century BC, the wave of Finno-Ugric tribes, which formerly had been predominately eastwardly inclinbed, went west. Some tribes advanced back … to the Baltic coast, which was reached in was is currently Estonia and Ingra. Hereby the East Baltic strain was strengthened through merging with those of their kin that had remained in the old Urhem all the time. In the SW by the Baltic Sea and by the Dyna they came in contact with Latvio-Lithuanians … and probably also already at this stage Germanics. The westernmost, now Baltic sea Finnish tribes, mixed with these, and thus originated the Tavastine sub-race. This race, however, has thereafter had centuries of distinct evolvement, which is shown among other things in its somewhat broader skull, in comparison with the more eastern East Baltids (and of course the contemporary Indo-Europeans). – As the proper Finno-Ugric original race one should however consider my Savolaksine sub-race. http://forums.skadi.net/showpost.php?p=435429&postcount=30

From Estonia, the westernmost Germanic-mixed Finns continued over the Gulf of Finland into South West Finland (which at the time was not entirely depopulated of Northerners). From them eventually originated the Tavastians and the so-called “proper Finns”. The Eastern tribes advanced by the edges of Ladoga gradually northward and came to form the East Finnish tribes, Savolaksians and Karelians. Hence the anthropologic and cultural differences which still divides eastern and western Finland. – Other Baltic Sea Finns, Livians and others, went from Estonia in several waves southward along the coast, where they, partly sustained by fishing, towards the beginning of the newer age lived in a broad belt almost all around the Gulf of Riga, and here, apart from the very mouth of Dyna, separated the Latvians from the sea. Any racial remnants are hardly visible today – unless one want to consider the … unlikely possibility, that they were the cause of the probable Pontid accents in these regions. If that were the case, they would, during the entire advancement from middle Russia have formed the outer left (south) flank, as it were, and by this reason, unlike other Finnish tribes, absorbed some Pontid strains from the steppe people (from purely cultural historical reasons, F. Balodis seems to assume this itinerary for some of them). Those few, but anthropologically well researched, Finnish Livians who still remain are not of this kind, though, but (rather east-)Nordid with weaker Tavastian accents. However, without the last named hypothesis, the location of the said racial characteristics to west and SW Latvia seems quite unexplicable.
If we now return and look at the entire peculiar theory about the earliest migrations of the Finno-Ugric (not to say Uralic) peoples, it does seem rather strange and unnatural. I suppose, however, that it is the only possible one.
Regardless of factors uncontrollable by the author, like the beliefs about the eastern migration of the Comb-Ceramic culture from an initial area by the Baltic sea, it is supported by the apparently linguistically well-grounded theories about the starting-point for the spread of these tribes at and immediately before the beginning of history, as well as by important race-biological reasons. Only by this theory is it possible to explain how the Baltic sea Finnish tribes only in a very small degree have “dark” Wjatkitt and other blood from the area of the Volga, while a considerable amount of “blonde”, East Baltic blood (alsowithout regard of late strains from Russians) is present also among the most genuine Volga finnish tribes. It is impossible that the East Baltic race were ever situated beyond the Volga. It had to originate in close proximity to the Nordid and East Nordid, that is, in an area with a relatively cool summer climate, and not in the regions over there which are almost desert-hot in the summer. (Moreover, they were probably even hotter during at least most of the prehistoric climatic periods after the end of the Ice Age). These theories do after all successfully combine the apparently unquestionable facts, that the origin of the East Baltic race is immediately to the east of the Baltic sea, and the the last spreading area of the Finno-Ugrian peoples was by the Volga and the Oká. http://forums.skadi.net/showpost.php?p=435478&postcount=31

This was very interesting read :)

Not too different from threories of Kalevi Wiik, though he's a linguist not an anthropologist.

Thursday, May 18th, 2006, 09:48 PM
Interesting indeed.

Thanks :thumbup

Thursday, May 18th, 2006, 09:50 PM
Aren't those Lundman quotes? Who's ideas about the population history of Savolax-region was merely said to be "based on fantasy" according to even a mere archeology student on another forum (of course it's easy to dismiss others on the light of current archelogical evidence). Not to mention his division of Finns into Aistid/Tavastid/Savolaxid, which never became a "hit" with the Finnish academy of science. Nor the dismissal of most of their work by him.

Wiik isn't exacly too "sound" with his Finno-Ugrian theories either. Not exactly the two people you'd like to quote when doing serious scientific "or even pseudo-scientific" study on Finland.


Thursday, May 18th, 2006, 10:03 PM
It's Lundman, I translated Väring's post in the Swedish section:


Is hardly "scientific" (but nonetheless common practise among today's scientists and scholars) to reason that because someone is wrong in one theory, everything he proposes must be wrong. I think Lundman's research may be useful, and probably even correct in details.

Thursday, May 18th, 2006, 10:16 PM
It's Lundman, I translated Väring's post in the Swedish section:


Is hardly "scientific" (but nonetheless common practise among today's scientists and scholars) to reason that because someone is wrong in one theory, everything he proposes must be wrong. I think Lundman's research may be useful, and probably even correct in details.

Not everything, but tiny facts are.
1. Lundman never worked in Finland.
2. His theories on Finland's population histories (Tavasthus/Savolax region) are more fantasy than anything based on archeological evidence.

3. He used late 19th century work mainly as his sources, while there were much never studies available in Finland (very thural one's by the Finnish academy of Science. I think the only one of these he used was Löfgren's work on Nyland (which I have as a book btw.)

And even those studies (mainly from the 1930's) by the academy of science would probably give different results today, considering how poor and rural the nation mainly was back then (poorer nutrition etc.)

Monday, July 24th, 2006, 11:56 PM
I believe the more correct term to describe borealized cromagnids would be "mongoliform", because genetic studies do not show significant mongolid admixture in Finns. And I'd like to emphasize that there hasn't been much mingling between Finns and Samis. Consider the Scots and the English, there's an example of the historical relationship of Finns and the Sami.

"Where do Finns come from?

Written for Virtual Finland by Christian Carpelan,
Licentiate in Archaeology and a researcher at the University of Helsinki...

...DNA research reveals that the genetic makeup of the Sámis and Samoyeds differs significantly both from each other and from other Europeans. In the case of the Samoyeds, this is not surprising, since it was not until the early Middle Ages that they migrated to northeastern Europe from the outer reaches of Siberia. It is curious, however, that the mitochondrial DNA of the Sámis should differ so distinctly from that of other European peoples. The ‘Sámi motif’ which has been identified by researchers - a combination of three specific genetic mutations - is shared by more than one third of all tested Sámis, but of all the gene tests conducted throughout the world, the same mutation has occurred in only six other samples, one Finnish and five Karelian. This prompts the question as to whether the ascendants of the latter-day Sámis have perhaps lived in genetic isolation at some stage in their evolution.
DNA scientists class the Finns as Indo-Europeans, or descendants of western genetic stock. But because ‘Indo-European’ is a term borrowed from linguistics, it is misleading in the broader context of bioanthropology. DNA scientists work within a time frame of tens of thousands of years, whereas the evolution of Indo-European languages, as indeed of all European language groups, is confined to a much briefer time span. DNA scientists nevertheless postulate that the Finno-Ugric population absorbed an influx of migrating Indo-European farming communities (‘Indo-European’ both genetically and, by that stage, also in the language they spoke). The newcomers altered the original genetic makeup of the Finno-Ugric population, but nevertheless adopted their language. This, in a nutshell, explains the origin of the Finns, according to the DNA scientists. The Sámis, however, are a much older population in the opinion of DNA scientists, and their origin has yet to be established conclusively..."