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Pomor
Tuesday, November 4th, 2003, 05:23 PM
The following is from Polak:



The phylogeographic context of the southern Slavs: A mitochondrial perspective
H. V. Tolk 1, M. Pericic 2, L. Barac 2, S. Cvjetan 2, P. Rudan 2, K. Tambets 1, R. Villems 1;
1Estonian Biocentre and Tartu University, Tartu, ESTONIA, 2Institute for Anthropological Research, Zagreb, CROATIA.

Mitochondrial DNA lineages of three South Slavonic-speaking populations of the northwestern Balkan peninsula - Croats, Bosnians, and Slovenians (N ~1,200; ~370 haplotypes) - were identified combining the sequences of mtDNA HVS-I region and the RFLP data from coding region. These lineages were compared with a dataset of about 12,000 samples from elswhere. This phylogeographic knowledge base was used to interpret demographic events of the past since the peopeling of Europe. An absolute majority of the lineages found belong to the common western-Eurasian haplogroups - H, I, J, K, T, U, V, and W. Low-frequency haplogroups, e.g., N1, R, HV, and pre-HV, are present as well. Lineages, characteristic for sub-Saharan Africa or eastern Eurasia, occurred in single cases. For better phylogeographic resolution the data of the populations from different geographic areas were compared in a sub-haplogroup level, and the fraction of the identical haplotypes between population groups was determined. The distribution and diversity of many subhaplogroups reveals that the gene pool of the populations of northwestern Balkans has not gained much influence from the Near East during the Holocene. With some interesting exceptions, southern Slavs tend to have more common phylogenetic branches shared with Germanic (e.g. T2), West Slavonic, or, in some cases, with Finno-Ugric speakers (e.g., U4, U5), but significantly less so with southern European and eastern Mediterranean populations.

Vojvoda
Tuesday, November 4th, 2003, 05:38 PM
Nothing surprisng about this really.Southern Slavs migrated to the Balkans in the 4-5th centuries from central Europe, according to historians, possibly earlier.I know the article only mentions Slovenes, Croats, and Bosnians(which ones?) but here is a little history lesson:

Covering the first half of the sixth century, the Slavs were still based north of the Danube but kept up constant pressure of raids across the river, which yielded them plunder, slaves and bribes to remove themselves. There were as yet few attempts to make permanent lodgements south of the Danube. The wide-ranging movements of the Getae in the North Balkans from 517 may have brought Slavs in as contingents in their armies. Prokopios alludes to a large-scale Slav raid on Thrace about 527. In the 530s there were further substantial incursions and in the 540s massive raids, which at one moment menaced Constantinople itself.Constantine VII Porphyrogennetos relates that the Serboi are descended from the unbaptized Slavs who lived in the place called Boiki (Bohemia), next to Frankia. Most of the migrating Slavs were agriculturalists who pushed aside the aboriginal Roman-speaking,many of whom were stock-breeders, populations to the mountainous areas where they still exist as of today,Aromanians,Vlachs,Mavrovlachs,Cinc ari etc.

Vetinari
Tuesday, November 4th, 2003, 07:36 PM
The following is from Polak:

Not that surprising. It seems that the further away you get from the eastern Mediterranean, the less Neolithic ancestry you find.

Awar
Tuesday, November 4th, 2003, 07:53 PM
Interesting. On a map Polak posted earlier, there was a great similarity between Serbian and Dutch haplogroups.

Prodigal Son
Tuesday, November 4th, 2003, 09:24 PM
Slovenians have 58% pure light eyes and 25% blond hairs, so they are racially Northern European from any angle....

Triglav
Wednesday, November 5th, 2003, 12:49 AM
Slovenians have 58% pure light eyes and 25% blond hairs, so they are racially Northern European from any angle....

Well, yes, I can confirm the data on hair. Morphologically, though, I would say that we are for the most part identical with Austrians and Southern Germans.

58% pure light eyes? I'd have to see by which definition this was established. I heard from another source that we have about 70% light (pure and mixed) eyes which would coincide with my observations.

Those are my $ 0.02.

Awar
Wednesday, November 5th, 2003, 01:17 AM
Did you see this map by Coon?

Triglav
Wednesday, November 5th, 2003, 01:24 AM
Did you see this map by Coon?

Well, here both elements are lumped together, so this is no reliable index. Furthermore, I can not see any definition of "light" and "dark" niether in terms of eye nor in terms of hair colour.

Prodigal Son
Wednesday, November 5th, 2003, 02:12 AM
58% pure light eyes? I'd have to see by which definition this was established.

"Pure light" in this case is defined as #9-12 on the Bunak Scale, i.e. grey, grey-blue, light-blue and deep blue.

I heard from another source that we have about 70% light (pure and mixed) eyes which would coincide with my observations.

Slovenians have 4% dark eyes, thus 96% pure light and mixed shades (including hazel and yellowish shades). They also have a CI of 83 and a relatively high (~20%) incidence of concave nasal profiles, all of which would make me classify them as a predominantly Borreby/West-Baltic population. Dinaric strains are surprisingly weak among Slovenians (there are more concave noses than convex).

Triglav
Wednesday, November 5th, 2003, 05:32 PM
have 4% dark eyes, thus 96% pure light and mixed shades (including hazel and yellowish shades).

I would like to see figures for other countries for comparison, RP.


They also have a CI of 83 and a relatively high (~20%) incidence of concave nasal profiles, all of which would make me classify them as a predominantly Borreby/West-Baltic population. Dinaric strains are surprisingly weak among Slovenians (there are more concave noses than convex).

The local Dinaric types are mostly Savid whom Skerlj defines as light-pigmented, light-eyed, longer-headed and akin to Noric. In any case, the local Dinaric types quite significantly differ from those of all neighbouring countries. Borreby is found in transition to Alpine.

Baltic is also a significant element, but I wouldn't go as far as to label the population West-Baltic, but rather a general Baltic in combination with different other types.

Prodigal Son
Wednesday, November 5th, 2003, 06:33 PM
I would like to see figures for other countries for comparison, RP.

Unfortunately, I no longer have the book from which stats on Slovenians were obtained (V. D. Dyachenko's Anthropologichnyj Sklad Ukrainskogo Narodu). I have stats for Russians though. Russians have 94.2% light and mixed eyes (45% pure light), 33% blond hairs (Fischer#s 9-26), a CI of 81.6 and 9% concave noses.

Triglav
Wednesday, November 5th, 2003, 07:36 PM
Unfortunately, I no longer have the book from which stats on Slovenians were obtained (V. D. Dyachenko's Anthropologichnyj Sklad Ukrainskogo Narodu). I have stats for Russians though. Russians have 94.2% light and mixed eyes (45% pure light), 33% blond hairs (Fischer#s 9-26), a CI of 81.6 and 9% concave noses.

That's a pity. Do you have any statistics for other populations, too?

Vojvoda
Wednesday, November 5th, 2003, 07:42 PM
Baltic is also a significant element, but I wouldn't go as far as to label the population West-Baltic, but rather a general Baltic in combination with different other types.

Istocno-europidsku rasu nalazimo mozda u manjim grupama u Vojvodini i od Zagreba prema severu (Skerlj).

Triglav
Wednesday, November 5th, 2003, 07:56 PM
Istocno-europidsku rasu nalazimo mozda u manjim grupama u Vojvodini i od Zagreba prema severu (Skerlj).

Which translates as "The East-European race can perhaps be found in smaller groups in Vojvodina and north of Zagreb" I believe.

I don't really know to what East-European refers here, and that is why I named our local type as some general Baltic, since it neither appears to be West-Baltic nor East-Baltic. The latter is literally absent here in its pure form.

Vojvoda
Wednesday, November 5th, 2003, 08:00 PM
Istocnoeuropidsku rasu zovemo i Istocnobaltiskom, ili jos prostije Baltiskom rasom.(Skerlj)

You are right, basically Baltid.Sorry if I confused you:)

Triglav
Wednesday, November 5th, 2003, 08:04 PM
Istocnoeuropidsku rasu zovemo i Istocnobaltiskom, ili jos prostije Baltiskom rasom.(Skerlj)

You are right, basically Baltid.Sorry if I confused you:)

"The East-European race is also called the East-Baltic or more genearlly the Baltic race."

Well, there are 6 or so Baltic races altogether. East Baltic is really almost absent here in its classical form. I have, however, seen a few Croats of that type.

Vojvoda
Wednesday, November 5th, 2003, 08:07 PM
"The East-European race is also called the East-Baltic or more genearlly the Baltic race."

Well, there are 6 or so Baltic races altogether. East Baltic is really almost absent here in its classical form. I have, however, seen a few Croats of that type.

Hm, and you asked me to translate some quotes from Skerlj for you....LOL

Triglav
Wednesday, November 5th, 2003, 08:09 PM
Hm, and you asked me to translate some quotes from Skerlj for you....LOL

Translate? In what language were they originally in? (Perhaps English, so I can translate it back :D)?

Vojvoda
Wednesday, November 5th, 2003, 08:13 PM
Translate? In what language were they originally in? (Perhaps English, so I can translate it back :D)?

in Swahili:D

Dr. Solar Wolff
Saturday, November 15th, 2003, 07:49 AM
Wend, cybernap Polak and bring him back. His material is always first-rate.

Judging from the history of the Slavic people and their most recent expansion, it is no surprise. It is also no surprise on a more personal level since we have all seen pictures of Southern Slavs in Kosovo and Serbia since the U.S. bombing there. Many of these people have blond hair and northern-looking features.

Pomor
Saturday, November 15th, 2003, 04:11 PM
Wend, cybernap Polak and bring him back. His material is always first-rate.

Judging from the history of the Slavic people and their most recent expansion, it is no surprise. It is also no surprise on a more personal level since we have all seen pictures of Southern Slavs in Kosovo and Serbia since the U.S. bombing there. Many of these people have blond hair and northern-looking features.

I wish I could. He said he would be busy at least until Christmas.