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Thruthheim
Saturday, May 6th, 2006, 04:48 AM
Can anyone give me examples and an explanation please? :)

visigodo
Saturday, May 13th, 2006, 06:55 AM
Can anyone give me examples and an explanation please? :)

Profesor V. Bunak in his work Neues Material zur Ausonderung anthropoligscher Typen unter der Bevölkerung Osteuropas explain the anthropological data about the Baltid race. As he was the first to study seriously this type I think I must reconsider how to classify some types I have classified before according to him. Bassically according to Bunak the Baltic race would be a slightly modified Nordid type, but still Nordid.

http://img100.imageshack.us/img100/3046/valdaictype1pf.th.jpg (http://forums.skadi.net/redirector.php?url=http%3A%2F%2Fimg100.i mageshack.us%2Fmy.php%3Fimage%3Dvaldaict ype1pf.jpg)http://img88.imageshack.us/img88/5512/baltids2ie.th.jpg (http://forums.skadi.net/redirector.php?url=http%3A%2F%2Fimg88.im ageshack.us%2Fmy.php%3Fimage%3Dbaltids2i e.jpg)

“The two types North-Western Great Russian and High Dnepr (they fit with the so called "subNordic" of Deniker) depending on his pigmentation, stature and cephalic, facial and nasal indexes, as well as for other features they are without doubt more close to the Nordic race that to any other one, and undoubtedly they might be unified in one single group. Both Russian groups are more close among them that each one separately to the Nordic race. For this, I believe that they should be unified in a group with two subgroups. I think that for this type there would be succeeded the denomination “Baltic”("Baltischer")as I proposed in my work of 1924. Both subraces of the "Baltic" race can be named as Valdaic ("Waldaische") sub-race according to Tschepurkowski, which would correspond to the types above described as North-Wester-Great Russian and sub-race High Dnepr (or also sub-race Nord Düna). Together with these two sub-races we must differentiate also other sub-races: the West dünasche(lettische[Letts]), Unter-weichelsche[Under Vistula] ([Prussian - oriental]Ost-preußische). According to the opinion of many anthropologists, the Baltic race and the Nordic race are narrowly related and form two races of one single type that on my idea I would name « Great European race » (In the sense how uses this term Giufridda-Rugieri)”.

About the West-Baltid race I already post some information here: The West-Baltid race (http://forums.skadi.net/showthread.php?t=53729)

Regarding the East-Baltic race the only information I have right now here (I am not at home) is from Günther but probably there is more and better descriptions for sure:

“The East Baltic race is of about the same, or only a little greater, height as the Alpine race, and, like it, is stocky and broad. The breadth and stockiness is even more pronounced in the East Baltic race than in the Alpine; and there is, furthermore, the certain coarseness of bone which is so characteristic of it. The relatively great breadth of shoulder in the East Baltic race is particularly marked, and gives a coarsening effect. The legs, hands, and feet are short and heavy as in the Alpine race.

The East Baltic head, too, gives a broad and coarse-boned effect. It is relatively large and heavy, and in particular the face has a massive effect compared with the cranial portion. This is heightened by the characteristic under jaw, which is massive and heavy, and broad, short, and bony in structure, with an unprominent chin. The cephalic index is on the whole somewhat lower than in the Alpine race; this would seem to arise from the fact that while the East Baltic head has an equally remarkable breadth, the back of it is slightly more arched out. The facial index is somewhat higher than in the Alpine race, because while the face has the same remarkable breadth, it is a little higher than in the latter. This is due to the higher under jaw in the East Baltic face, and the greater height of both jaws in the region of the alveoli (tooth-sockets).

The countenance has a dull cast, as in the Alpine race. It has, however, characteristics of its own: the forehead is not so much arched backwards as set backwards, but at a small angle. The root or upper part of the nose lies even flatter than in the Alpine race, but in its middle and lower parts the East Baltic nose rises on the whole more from the face than the Alpine. The East Baltic nose is bent in, and has a particularly 'ugly' effect in that it is at the same time turned up at the lower part, and lies broader across its opening than is usually seen in the Alpine race. Now and then very short noses are seen in East Baltic men and women.

The position of the jaws (upper against lower) shows a tendency in the East Baltic race to a forward set, while in the other European races the jaws lie more or less one against the other. The massive, heavy under jaw has an unprominent, blunt chin; its lower outline, and the outline behind, meet more nearly at a right angle than in the other European races. Seen from the front the cheek-bones stand somewhat apart from one another (in a lateral and at the same time forward direction). The front view shows, too, the (according to the general ideas of beauty in Europe) 'ugly' nose, with its nostrils visible from the front and the broad flat-lying cartilage; it shows too, again, the breadth of the under jaw, which, especially in the region of the submaxillary angle, is very considerable. The front view also shows how the jaws are set slightly forward.

The fleshy parts show fewer deposits of fat than in the Alpine race; the coarseness of the skull bones is not hidden. The wrinkles from the cartilage of the nose towards the corners of the mouth seem often to be rather deep, and meet (apparently oftener in the women) in a Gothic arch rounded at the top, this being due to the fact that they seem to meet on the bridge above the lowest third of the nose. The nose is often markedly uptilted just in the region of the wings.

The opening between the lids rises a little (more clearly in the woman) towards the outside; it is, as in the Alpine race, narrower and shorter than in the narrow-faced races of Europe, for which reason, too, the East Baltic eye looks small. The distance between the inner corners of the eyes is greater in the East Baltic race than in the other European races; the opening of the mouth looks broader, the lips wider and their line less clear.

In old age there is a strong tendency to form wrinkles as in the Alpine race.

The skin is fair, but not rosy; it does not let the blood glimmer through, so that it never looks to have the life or brightness of the Nordic skin. There is always a grey under-tone to the East Baltic skin, which may often be so strong that one would hardly call this skin fair; not seldom it seems to have an 'olive-grey' (Retzius) colouring.

The hair has a hard, even a stiff, texture. Each hair is (as in the Alpine race) thick. The hair of the beard, too, is stiff; it grows thin, although the individual hairs may grow fairly long. The East Baltic hair is fair, but more inclined to be ash-blond than gold-blond. The golden or reddish undertone of the Nordic race is wanting; in its stead a grey undertone is shown, which may be more, or may be less, decided. Thus the East Baltic hair shows shades from faded blond shot with grey down to more or less dark ash-blond. East Baltic hair might be called ash-blond as against the gold-blond Nordic hair. In childhood both the Nordic and the East Baltic race often show whity-yellow flaxen hair. All over the east of Europe, where the latter race is more strongly represented, red hair is less often found than in North-west Europe, where the Nordic race is more strongly represented.

The colour of the eyes in the East Baltic race is grey, grey-blue, or blue; blue seems rarer, the blue East Baltic eye being mainly watery blue, or even bluey-white (the 'white-eyed Finns' is a saying). That brightness, or even radiance, which belongs to many Nordic eyes, is lacking in the East Baltic eye. Its expression is often sullen, not seldom it is gloomy, but withal stronger or at least harder than in the Alpine race”.


I post some examples of more or less typical types (in my opinion) and some intermediate type in between. I add also two interesting types quite interesting to classify: one woman probably East-Baltid/Uralid? and one man maybe East-Baltid/Mongoloid?, both blondes. Hope can help you.

vingul
Saturday, May 13th, 2006, 02:10 PM
Bassically according to Bunak the Baltic race would be a slightly modified Nordid type, but still Nordid.

I wonder, how exactly does Bunak define Nordids? In the tradition of including Dalo-Falids and other depigmented CMs into the category, and not just gracile leptodolichomorphs (cf. the German anthros)? If that is the case, then I agree with his assessment about "the Baltic race". Baltids would seem to be "slightly modified" depigmented CM's.

visigodo
Sunday, May 14th, 2006, 05:03 AM
I wonder, how exactly does Bunak define Nordids? In the tradition of including Dalo-Falids and other depigmented CMs into the category, and not just gracile leptodolichomorphs (cf. the German anthros)? If that is the case, then I agree with his assessment about "the Baltic race". Baltids would seem to be "slightly modified" depigmented CM's.

For Bunak the Baltid and the Nordid race are related and they must be included in the same racial group, which he calls “Great European Race”. In this case and in my opinion, the Baltids would not be depigmented Cromagnids but the descendants of the Indo-Europeans groups (Balts, Slavs, peoples of Fatyonovo's culture etc.) belonging predominantly to the Nordid race and with elements of Dalofaelid (Cromagnid) race aswell and that would be therefore those who would give origin to Bunak's Baltic race. These elements for different motives, mixovariation (mixture with Cromagnids, Finno-Ugrians, etc.) and internal variation (evolutionary direction towards the boralization/alpinization du to especial enviromental and climatic conditions) would have given place to the typical Baltic type, the types that have remained with less changes and that have preserved better the Nordid classic features they would be the East-Nordids. In this respect I am not sure if it could be said that the Baltids are depigmented Cromagnids, (unless we have the opinion that the origin of Nordid race is some kind of gracilized Cromagnid, but this is another history) or as it is said in SNPA “Cromagnids altered through selection” placing theme in the same group together with the Borrebies. On the contrary I think would be good to includethe West-Baltid race in this group. I understand that if Bunak has reason and the Baltid race is related to the Nordid there would be problems in fitting them into the SNPA’s classification since if it is clear that cannot be considered “inaltered Nordids” we have the problem of where to place theme. In the subgroup of the Nordids altered by Nordish admixture (admitting East-Cromagnid admixture) or in the group of the Nordids altered by not Nordish admixture (admitting Finno-Ugrian admixture)? Anyway that is only some some ideas that I have, just want to help if possible. From my side possibly this summer will finish translating Bunak's text into the Spanish and later I will place something in the forum (in English). In this work there is enough photographic material and maps that I am sure will be interesting and I will place something in this forum at the end of August.

Here you will find some anthropological data, as you will see the most important differences are the cephalic index that that is higher comparing the Baltids with the more classic Nordids (Northern) the less facial index and something less stature.

http://img132.imageshack.us/img132/7619/copiadecharti0ge8ai.th.jpg (http://img132.imageshack.us/my.php?image=copiadecharti0ge8ai.jpg)

Agrippa
Monday, May 15th, 2006, 12:13 PM
The problem is, if looking at the origins, that we can see a lot of form, including Nordoids in the pool for Baltisation. But Central were Cromagnoid forms, to which they are closer related. Nordoid was involved too, since we are speaking about a population which was Baltised here, but the Cromagnoid and in Eastbaltid in particular, the Lappoid elements were crucial. We see from the beginning Nordoid, Cromagnoid and Lappoid living side by side in the North East in particular and the Cromagnoid forms never disappeared. Its similar to Southern Germany, even if we see in Germanic Reihengraeber Nordoid variants almost only, this doesnt mean all later forms can be traced back to this form, but rather that most people in that area might have a Nordid component.

There were for sure surviving older Cromagnoid-Alpinoid and Dinarid forms, its just not possible to link the Reihengraeber directly with later Dinarid and Alpinoid variants, even if considering Dinarisation and Alpinisation, the basic feature combination is out of their, or very limited in their original variation. Similar could be said for Eastern Europe areas in which we see Eastnordid-Corded forms before and Baltids later. That was the re-emergence of former Cromagnoids primarily, altered by the new lifestyle (sedentary farmers, changed climate partly, dependent life, lower selection etc.) - with a weaker or stronger (Eastbaltid) Lappoid influence.

There is no direct line from Nordid to Baltid, but mainly one going over Cromagnoid and with Nordid admixture being in certain areas and individuals involved. In fact, some Eastbaltids might have an even stronger Nordid component, because they are partly the result (similar to Neodanubian) of more direct North Europid (which includes both Nordid and Cromagnid) mixture with local Lappoids and Mongoloids even.

visigodo
Monday, May 15th, 2006, 02:15 PM
Thank you for your comments Agrippa.

The truth is that for me the problem of the anthropology of the Eastern countries is something very interesting because frankly speaking the majority of the authors that we know from the West are in general not updated in all that has relation to the anthropology of these countries. The works of Coon and Lundman both leave many doubts in many senses. The only possibility of clarifying the racial complexes of the Eastern countries are the works of authors like Bunak, Cheboksarov, Denisova and others. In this respect I think as definition of a certain type, the “Baltic” in strict sense, with the two sub-varieties, according to Bunak, the "North-Western Great Russian" and "High Dnepr", should be considered to be a variant of the Nordid (Northern) race but something altered by admixture (Cromagnid and/or Finno-Ugrian) or for internal variation, or for both motives, giving place to a type that we can think is like a sub-Nordid type, but not in origin purely Cromagnid but descendant from the peoples of predominantly Nordid race (Corded/Battle Axe people, Fatjanovo, early Balanovo groups etc.), because these groups were the most possible ancestors of both Balts and Slavs, which later came up mixing partially with Ugro-Finns? or with the old Kammkeramik people with large crania of at least two varieties, an incipient lappoinoid type, and other wide-faced mesocephal of Upper Palaeolithic appearance (Baltic-Cromagnoids, East-Cromagnids, Proto-Baltics or whatewer we want to call them).

In this respect I understand that for a correct classification of the Eastern peoples we must have clear that in those elements that have kept purer the inheritance of the Corded/Battle Axe people we would have the East-Nordids. The Nordids (Corded/BA) that had had certain alteration would give the Baltids (“Baltics” of Bunak), the Nordids that have stretched contact with the Pontids they would give the North-Pontids types, those which have preserved better the Cromagnid (UP) features would be the West-Baltids (With several levels, from the most purer Cromangids up to those who have suffered the “Baltisation” process –North/Alpinoids like, more or less depigmented robust Alpinoids etc) then there would be the East-Baltids that would be Cromagnids (UP) altered by Lapponoid admixture. Finnally would be necessary only to talk the Pontids and East-Alpinids etc.

Just to finish I think that like concept the phenomenon named “Baltisation” seems to me to be correct and is a phenomenon that could have happen certainly in Nordids or in Cromagnids. There is many examples of Nordids with signs of “Baltisation” (Baltids that before I use to classify as Nordids with Baltid admixture) as well as Cromagnids. The problem is that to define properly a certain racial type as it is the Baltid we must be more precise and scientific and here it is where we must extract profit from anthropologist as Bunak otherwise the concept of Baltid race stays as a too arbitrary and inprecise idea and we return to the old Osteuropid concept and probably this is one of the points why the SNPA still they did not finish the work with Baltids and East-Baltids, but I can be wrong in this last point. I suppose vingul will say something about. Anyway from here my best wishes and congratulations to the people who are doing such a nice work with the SNPA. Thanks for your efforts.:thumbup

Agrippa
Monday, May 15th, 2006, 03:00 PM
I think to clarify some things it would be necessary to look at non-metrical traits and soft parts too in Baltids. Because though Nordid was for sure present in the process of Baltisation, the main element should have been Cromagnoid since the whole facial morphology of Westbaltids is definitely closer than that of Eastnordids. Even in the Fatjanovo and Balanovo skulls thats clear, they are quite far away from todays typical Baltids, whereas the a infantilised variant of the Cromagnoids which were present too has a different f.e. facial profile, nasal shape etc. everything already closer to Baltid.

So the starting point of Baltisation seems to be a Cromagnoid base which was altered by Nordid and Lappoid admixture - depending on the degree and exact influence we can distinguish Nordid - Baltid transitions, in my opinion mostly based on mixture finally - even if this mixture was stabilised in various region most likely - and a basic Cromagnid - Lappoid one which is the transition from Cromagnid - Westbaltid - Baltid proper - Eastbaltid - Lappoid.

Nordids would have needed in every case a strong influence of another variant to develop such traits so relatively fast - even as a population - because from Nordid proper there is no real starting point for Baltisation at all.

But to clear that up would be a work which we can't do, involving regional typification of large samples in Eastern Europe, archaeological records, sampling non-metrical and genetic traits for comparison. In some Eastbaltids its really easier, because its sometimes obvious that they look just like more or less stabilised local North Europid-Lappid mixtures of Northern Scandinavia finally.

visigodo
Monday, May 15th, 2006, 04:25 PM
But to clear that up would be a work which we can't do, involving regional typification of large samples in Eastern Europe, archaeological records, sampling non-metrical and genetic traits for comparison.


That is the point... and that work have been made by the Eastern anthropologists. I would like to help to clarify that and hope next summer holidays I will do something posting here some good information about the matter. Anyway I would like to post some Eastern types to know what is your opinion (or any other opinion of course) and if you can consider them Baltids or pred. Baltids. Have a look please.

visigodo
Monday, May 15th, 2006, 04:34 PM
Some more and if you like tell me wich one of them fits better in your idea of Baltid.

Agrippa
Monday, May 15th, 2006, 07:35 PM
http://forums.skadi.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=59427&d=1147703477

She comes close.

http://forums.skadi.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=59430&d=1147703514
He too.

Many of the others are finally still rather Eastnordid or even typical Eastnordids. Most are Eastnordid-Baltid or Eastnordid with Baltid admixture.

Some more Osteuropid (especially Baltid proper) women I found on this dating side to give examples in color:
http://www.russianbrides.com/asp/page.asp?mode=0&id=64473 (http://forums.skadi.net/redirector.php?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.russ ianbrides.com%2Fasp%2Fpage.asp%3Fmode%3D 0%26id%3D64473)


Metrically Baltid but with Nordid traces in the facial features:
http://www.russianbrides.com/asp/page.asp?mode=0&id=63711 (http://forums.skadi.net/redirector.php?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.russ ianbrides.com%2Fasp%2Fpage.asp%3Fmode%3D 0%26id%3D63711)

Dinaroid influence:
http://www.russianbrides.com/asp/page.asp?mode=0&id=63697 (http://forums.skadi.net/redirector.php?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.russ ianbrides.com%2Fasp%2Fpage.asp%3Fmode%3D 0%26id%3D63697)

Quite typical Baltids of reduced character:
http://www.russianbrides.com/asp/page.asp?mode=0&id=63681 (http://forums.skadi.net/redirector.php?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.russ ianbrides.com%2Fasp%2Fpage.asp%3Fmode%3D 0%26id%3D63681)


If looking at these images mostly from Russians, Eastnordid and Baltid dominate with mixtures of different degrees in between being extremely common. Still clearly Eastnordid and clearly Baltid variants can be seen quite often. Eastbaltid, Westbaltid, Eastalpinid and finally other elements (Pontid mostly, Dinarid as well) can be found too in this order.

vingul
Monday, May 15th, 2006, 09:45 PM
and probably this is one of the points why the SNPA still they did not finish the work with Baltids and East-Baltids, but I can be wrong in this last point. I suppose vingul will say something about.

This has been a difficult nut to crack. The significant survival of people with CM features showing signs of "borealization" along the Baltic shore has prompted the SNPA to retain the "Baltid" term for this strain, rather than for local CM-Nordid intermediates, the stabilization product of which are presumably the general type indicated by "Aistin"/"Aisto-Nordid" or "Intermarine" by various authors. I have prepared a Baltid page for the site, but am still not completely certain. In the meantime, I have uploaded a pdf of the html page (http://www.snpa.skadi.net/rg-baltid.pdf), for your scrutiny and feedback.

Liquid Len
Monday, May 15th, 2006, 11:21 PM
Visigodo, from when exactly is this work of Bunak you're citing?
I'm just asking because I've gathered that he has modified his views very much from his early beginnings to his later works.

I've read one that is basically from 1966, and revised in 1971 (it's in German btw).

Therein his terminology is completely different to what you were citing, and he doesn't put the Baltic type close to the Nordic type anymore.

In the chapter dealing with the Northwestern fringe zone of the Soviet Union, he discusses the Baltic type, and states that there are five Baltic zones – or subtypes:

1. Onega-Saimen (the Northernmost Baltic type, typical for Vepses, East Karelians etc)
2. Venta-Disna or Litoral (Western Estonia, Western Latvia)
3. Peipus (The Eastern parts of Estonia and Latvia)
4. Njemen (Lithuania)
5. Dvina-Dnieper (Northern Belorussia)

According to the descriptions in the text they can be characterised as follows:

1. Is imho similar to Lundman's Savolaxid subtype.
2. Is more leptomorphic, Nordid influenced.
3. Is imho similar to Lundman's Tavastid type. Taller than 1, with a higher cephalic index and a broader, bigger face.
4. Is said to have a Southern influence (Alpinoid I'd say.)
5. Is compared to 4, taller, larger headed, lower cephalic index, slightly smaller face. Therefore more Cromagnid?

Also note how, according to the data he used in this paper, Belorussia isn't a stronghold of reduced Baltids anymore, unlike in some older maps which are circulating through the boards.

visigodo
Wednesday, May 17th, 2006, 02:08 PM
If looking at these images mostly from Russians, Eastnordid and Baltid dominate with mixtures of different degrees in between being extremely common. Still clearly Eastnordid and clearly Baltid variants can be seen quite often. Eastbaltid, Westbaltid, Eastalpinid and finally other elements (Pontid mostly, Dinarid as well) can be found too in this order.

Thanks for your comments and pictures.

What I got from the two first examples you have posted is that your idea of Baltids is that they are nearly some kind of, let me say… Nordid/North-Alpinoid stabilized blend. Others examples I would say that are the end point of the “Baltization” that can happen among the West-Baltids (Cromagnids) but with nothing or very little Lappoid influence. Just today I was in Incheon International Airport (South Korea) taking a flight to We Hei (China) and was funny because the majority of Europids there were Russians, after that some Business travellers (Pred. Nordids, Keltic-Nordids and North-Atlantids with some UP but not much) and some Americans soldiers and officers. Among the Russians I saw all the differents types you can imagine among them but the core was your Baltids (specially among the women) and "altered Nordids" (Bunak’s Baltics) but also some West-Baltids –not much- and some Pontids/North-Pontids, pure East-Baltids I could not see, just some Baltids with little lappoid influence and Dinaroids just one guy that was a more Keltic-Nordid than Dinarid.

visigodo
Wednesday, May 17th, 2006, 02:15 PM
This has been a difficult nut to crack. The significant survival of people with CM features showing signs of "borealization" along the Baltic shore has prompted the SNPA to retain the "Baltid" term for this strain, rather than for local CM-Nordid intermediates, the stabilization product of which are presumably the general type indicated by "Aistin"/"Aisto-Nordid" or "Intermarine" by various authors. I have prepared a Baltid page for the site, but am still not completely certain. In the meantime, I have uploaded a pdf of the html page (http://www.snpa.skadi.net/rg-baltid.pdf), for your scrutiny and feedback.

Thank you so much for sharing your previous ideas about the Baltids.

I suppose is not easy at all to finish the work when you want to be as much accurate as possible. My comments regarding your pre-page are that seems that you would like to put West-Baltids and Agrippa’s Baltids in one category (Baltid). If you finally decide to do this seem that is correct the place you have located them and probably you can take some information from the West-Baltids tread I have done. So West-Baltid and Agrippa’s Baltids together with some explanation about the idea of “Baltisation” sounds that can be good enough. Second is that perhaps you can add some comments in the East-Nordid chapter regarding the “altered Nordids” (Bunak Baltic race) because otherwise probably millions of Easterns “Nordish” people will remain out of classification. Just some Ideas or suggestions. Anyway as soon as I can I will send to you some good pictures from Bunak that perhaps you can add to your web site, you will notice that Bunak’s Baltics are really quite close to Nordids.

visigodo
Wednesday, May 17th, 2006, 02:31 PM
Visigodo, from when exactly is this work of Bunak you're citing?
I'm just asking because I've gathered that he has modified his views very much from his early beginnings to his later works.

I've read one that is basically from 1966, and revised in 1971 (it's in German btw).

Therein his terminology is completely different to what you were citing, and he doesn't put the Baltic type close to the Nordic type anymore.

In the chapter dealing with the Northwestern fringe zone of the Soviet Union, he discusses the Baltic type, and states that there are five Baltic zones – or subtypes:

1. Onega-Saimen (the Northernmost Baltic type, typical for Vepses, East Karelians etc)
2. Venta-Disna or Litoral (Western Estonia, Western Latvia)
3. Peipus (The Eastern parts of Estonia and Latvia)
4. Njemen (Lithuania)
5. Dvina-Dnieper (Northern Belorussia)

According to the descriptions in the text they can be characterised as follows:

1. Is imho similar to Lundman's Savolaxid subtype.
2. Is more leptomorphic, Nordid influenced.
3. Is imho similar to Lundman's Tavastid type. Taller than 1, with a higher cephalic index and a broader, bigger face.
4. Is said to have a Southern influence (Alpinoid I'd say.)
5. Is compared to 4, taller, larger headed, lower cephalic index, slightly smaller face. Therefore more Cromagnid?

Also note how, according to the data he used in this paper, Belorussia isn't a stronghold of reduced Baltids anymore, unlike in some older maps which are circulating through the boards.


I am sorry but I do not remember exactly when the book was wrote and at this moment I can not tell you because I am not at home, in fact just now I am in the other side of Eurasia and I will come back home at the end of this month. In any case I am sure that the work has been wrote before the sixties. In fact one interesting thing I remember is that the book I have is from the personal library of Otto Reche and seems that Bunak sent one copy of his work directly to him (there is a signature and some friendly comments from Bunak to Reche in german). Anyway I have other book from the sixties and in his classification system still put his Baltic race in the same group with Nordids (Northern) and Sub-Nordids (Sub-Northerns), please have a look at Chart I. One thing is that in Neues Material zur Ausonderrung anthropologischer Typen unter der Bevölkerung Osteuropas he study the racial types that can be found in Bielorussia, Russia and Ukrania not in the Baltic coutries you mention. Anyway I am interested to know more details about that and if you kindly can tell me the title and details about the Bunak’s work you have or you have readed will be very nice.:)

http://forums.skadi.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=59626&d=1147868941

Agrippa
Wednesday, May 17th, 2006, 07:42 PM
Typical Eastbaltids being more common in certain areas and in the lower social strata I'd say. For Russians North of a certain line in general, the Nordid - Baltid (different degrees of Baltisation) continuum with everything in between explains a lot, though other elements are being present as well for sure.

Lissu
Thursday, May 18th, 2006, 09:51 AM
Examples posted by Agrippa from the mail pride website are definitely very Russian looking except for 1 or 2 of them. Dunno about their "Baltidness" though, but if I saw any of them walking on the streets of Helsinki for example, I woud guess them as Russian even without hearing them speaking.

symmakhos
Thursday, May 18th, 2006, 11:32 AM
[/URL] http://forums.skadi.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=59430&stc=1&thumb=1&d=1147703514 (http://forums.skadi.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=59429&d=1147703477) http://forums.skadi.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=59432&stc=1&thumb=1&d=1147703514 (http://forums.skadi.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=59431&d=1147703514)

(http://forums.skadi.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=59433&d=1147703569) [URL="http://forums.skadi.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=59436&d=1147703623"]http://forums.skadi.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=59436&stc=1&thumb=1&d=1147703623 (http://forums.skadi.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=59435&d=1147703569) http://forums.skadi.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=59190&stc=1&thumb=1&d=1147495869 (http://forums.skadi.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=59190&d=1147495869) http://forums.skadi.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=59191&stc=1&thumb=1&d=1147495869 (http://forums.skadi.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=59191&d=1147495869)

These look more Finnish than Russian to me (the last one sami or lappoid). I am mostly familiar with the northern Finns, don't know if there is any difference in racial characteristics from the south.

Lissu
Thursday, May 18th, 2006, 11:55 AM
IMO individuals of the first row could easily be from Finland, as well as the girl on the left on the second row. The girl in the middle and the boy on the right wouldn't strike me as Finns. The guy in particular has something I would define as "the Russian look".

http://forums.skadi.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=59430&stc=1&thumb=1&d=1147703514 (http://forums.skadi.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=59430&d=1147703514) http://forums.skadi.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=59432&stc=1&thumb=1&d=1147703514 (http://forums.skadi.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=59432&d=1147703514)

http://forums.skadi.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=59436&stc=1&thumb=1&d=1147703623 (http://forums.skadi.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=59436&d=1147703623) http://forums.skadi.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=59190&stc=1&thumb=1&d=1147495869 (http://forums.skadi.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=59190&d=1147495869) http://forums.skadi.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=59191&stc=1&thumb=1&d=1147495869 (http://forums.skadi.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=59191&d=1147495869)

These look more Finnish than Russian to me (the last one sami or lappoid). I am mostly familiar with the northern Finns, don't know if there is any difference in racial characteristics from the south.

Agrippa
Thursday, May 18th, 2006, 01:51 PM
http://forums.skadi.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=59191&d=1147495869

This guy is Lappoid.

http://forums.skadi.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=59436&d=1147703623

She is pred. Eastnordid with very minor Baltid influence being possible. Two opposite ends of this small sample.

Lissu
Thursday, May 18th, 2006, 02:05 PM
http://forums.skadi.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=59191&d=1147495869

This guy is Lappoid. Yes he has weak chin, round eyes with an epicanthic fold (I think) but his eyes are not very deep in his skull. Nose is not Lappoid I believe?

Agrippa
Thursday, May 18th, 2006, 02:16 PM
Yes he has weak chin, round eyes with an epicanthic fold (I think) but his eyes are not very deep in his skull. Nose is not Lappoid I believe?

Not that typical-extreme at least. His whole middle face is somewhat longer. Still he looks quite typical and shows the deviation from Europid standards. Its typical that some Europid-Tungid mixed people, especially more stabilised (Aralid Turanids) ones looking similar to some degree.

Lissu
Thursday, May 18th, 2006, 02:57 PM
Not that typical-extreme at least. His whole middle face is somewhat longer. Still he looks quite typical and shows the deviation from Europid standards.I have the impression that Lappoids typically have rather small and paedomorphic nose...

But I agree, the area around his eyes doesn't look quite typical for standard Europid... Still he has something that indicates he's Russian. Perhaps it's the nose.

One off-topic side note on this Russian-looking issue... Once I was spending an evening with friends at a restaurant. A friend of mine has a tendency to gather quite international people around her (typically Germans and Russians), so there were we, few Finns and one Italo-American waiting her Russian friend to come. No one but my friend had seen him before. We were looking out of the window and then the American said "hey there comes some Russian looking dude", and indeed it was him who we have been waiting for :P

The Russian wasn't Baltid looking at all IMO even if he was from St. Petes.

goldgrube
Thursday, May 18th, 2006, 05:24 PM
haircut?

Lissu
Thursday, May 18th, 2006, 06:13 PM
Now I realized what is it that makes him Russian looking...

http://forums.skadi.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=59191&d=1147495869 http://www.npr.org/news/specials/putin/images/portrait.jpg

The mouth-nose area. Putin has stronger, eyes without epicanthus and nose is narrower between the eyes, but still there is something similar.

bittercreek
Thursday, May 18th, 2006, 07:02 PM
http://forums.skadi.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=59430&stc=1&thumb=1&d=1147703514 (http://forums.skadi.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=59430&d=1147703514) http://forums.skadi.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=59432&stc=1&thumb=1&d=1147703514 (http://forums.skadi.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=59432&d=1147703514)

http://forums.skadi.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=59436&stc=1&thumb=1&d=1147703623 (http://forums.skadi.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=59436&d=1147703623) http://forums.skadi.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=59190&stc=1&thumb=1&d=1147495869 (http://forums.skadi.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=59190&d=1147495869) http://forums.skadi.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=59191&stc=1&thumb=1&d=1147495869 (http://forums.skadi.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=59191&d=1147495869)

These look more Finnish than Russian to me (the last one sami or lappoid). I am mostly familiar with the northern Finns, don't know if there is any difference in racial characteristics from the south.

Aren't all these examples infact from Russia? I recall the first guy in the picture is from some site with Russian students posted on dodona. Not strikingly familiar looking to be Finns from my point of view, to be honest.

Well, considering that most of Finland's population nowadays is concentrated in the south of the country (and is from all around the place), you can imagine that the proper north (as in proper north, beyond Oulu) is very sparsely populated with a few population centers. This itself creates some difference. Finland isn't exactly a small nation in size on a European scale, but has a miserably small population. The populations of some small rural neighbourhoods can indeed derive from a handful of people. So thank God, people most people today "get around"

Mannerheim
Thursday, May 18th, 2006, 07:09 PM
One off-topic side note on this Russian-looking issue... Once I was spending an evening with friends at a restaurant. A friend of mine has a tendency to gather quite international people around her (typically Germans and Russians), so there were we, few Finns and one Italo-American waiting her Russian friend to come. No one but my friend had seen him before. We were looking out of the window and then the American said "hey there comes some Russian looking dude", and indeed it was him who we have been waiting for :P

The Russian wasn't Baltid looking at all IMO even if he was from St. Petes.

I know what you mean.

symmakhos
Thursday, May 18th, 2006, 07:36 PM
My honoured landsman Väring has just posted some of Bertil Lundman's research (or speculation) about the Finns:

http://forums.skadi.net/showpost.php?p=435368&postcount=1

It is controversial :), and would therefore be interesting material for discussion in this therad. Here's a rough translation of bits of the first papagraphs:

[The ancestors of the Finns] may have lived in the current East Baltic region and bordering West Russia, including parts of Finland (however, SW Finland was ”Germanic” already during the Paleolithic age) – if, in fact, as Finnish scholars believe, the East Baltic race bluntly speaking is the “original race” of the Finno-Ugric peoples, and the so-called Comb-Ceramic (Paleolithic) culture is closely connected with these peoples. The Finno-Ugrians could then have advanced eastward and already by the end of the Paleolithic attained a secondary spreading area by Oka and the middle Volga. Some tribes are indeed likely to have remained in the old area in eastern Finland and by the Pejpus. […]


By the Volga the intruders now absorbed the earlier population of mainly wjatkid race (and unknown, most likely not ”Altaic” language). The remaining of the Volga Finns in these areas also do show a predominant east Baltic-Wjatkid racial mix [...]

Mannerheim
Thursday, May 18th, 2006, 08:00 PM
My honoured landsman Väring has just posted some of Bertil Lundman's research (or speculation) about the Finns:

http://forums.skadi.net/showpost.php?p=435368&postcount=1

It is controversial :), and would therefore be interesting material for discussion in this therad. Here's a rough translation of bits of the first papagraphs:

[The ancestors of the Finns] may have lived in the current East Baltic region and bordering West Russia, including parts of Finland (however, SW Finland was ”Germanic” already during the Paleolithic age) – if, in fact, as Finnish scholars believe, the East Baltic race bluntly speaking is the “original race” of the Finno-Ugric peoples, and the so-called Corded (Paleolithic) culture is closely connected with these peoples. The Finno-Ugrians could then have advanced eastward and already by the end of the Paleolithic attained a secondary spreading area by Oka and the middle Volga. Some tribes are indeed likely to have remained in the old area in eastern Finland and by the Pejpus. […]


By the Volga the intruders now absorbed the earlier population of mainly wjatkid race (and unknown, most likely not ”Altaic” language). The remaining of the Volga Finns in these areas also do show a predominant east Baltic-Wjatkid racial mix [...]

Great info,thanks. :thumbup

No objections.

I understood it little wrong in swedish section. :-O Im sorry for bad swedish.

Cheers

symmakhos
Thursday, May 18th, 2006, 08:03 PM
[cont.] Some Finno-ugric tribes, the Ugrian Vogules and Ostjaks have advanced or been forced far east, into Sibiria (and Sibirian poverty). They now however racially almost completely belong to the very brachykephalic ”pre-Mongol” Obine race of these areas. A third Ugrian tribe on the other hand, the Hungarians, became a steppe people and ended up in a completely different region. Important for our purposes is that the Hungarians of those regions where they are the most racially pure, the so-called Szeklians of Transsylvania, are still highly blond and East Baltic (generally Hungarians are darker).




[...]

During this period the Finno-Ugrians apparently had rather intensive cultural contacts with the Eastern European, “Aryan” Steppe peoples to the south, to which there are still many loan words to bear witness. The weak analogies of word formation, etc. (“vocal harmony” of a certain more distinct type) should probably also be able to explain by some manner of (maybe indirect) contacts during this period, possibly via the subjugated aborigin population.

In the last century BC, the wave of Finno-Ugric tribes, which formerly had been predominately eastwardly inclinbed, went west. Some tribes advanced back … to the Baltic coast, which was reached in was is currently Estonia and Ingra. Hereby the East Baltic strain was strengthened through merging with those of their kin that had remained in the old Urhem all the time. In the SW by the Baltic Sea and by the Dyna they came in contact with Latvio-Lithuanians … and probably also already at this stage Germanics. The westernmost, now Baltic sea Finnish tribes, mixed with these, and thus originated the Tavastine sub-race. This race, however, has thereafter had centuries of distinct evolvement, which is shown among other things in its somewhat broader skull, in comparison with the more eastern East Baltids (and of course the contemporary Indo-Europeans). – As the proper Finno-Ugric original race one should however consider my Savolaksine sub-race.

symmakhos
Thursday, May 18th, 2006, 08:50 PM
From Estonia, the westernmost Germanic-mixed Finns continued over the Gulf of Finland into South West Finland (which at the time was not entirely depopulated of Northerners). From them eventually originated the Tavastians and the so-called “proper Finns”. The Eastern tribes advanced by the edges of Ladoga gradually northward and came to form the East Finnish tribes, Savolaksians and Karelians. Hence the anthropologic and cultural differences which still divides eastern and western Finland. – Other Baltic Sea Finns, Livians and others, went from Estonia in several waves southward along the coast, where they, partly sustained by fishing, towards the beginning of the newer age lived in a broad belt almost all around the Gulf of Riga, and here, apart from the very mouth of Dyna, separated the Latvians from the sea. Any racial remnants are hardly visible today – unless one want to consider the … unlikely possibility, that they were the cause of the probable Pontid accents in these regions. If that were the case, they would, during the entire advancement from middle Russia have formed the outer left (south) flank, as it were, and by this reason, unlike other Finnish tribes, absorbed some Pontid strains from the steppe people (from purely cultural historical reasons, F. Balodis seems to assume this itinerary for some of them). Those few, but anthropologically well researched, Finnish Livians who still remain are not of this kind, though, but (rather east-)Nordid with weaker Tavastian accents. However, without the last named hypothesis, the location of the said racial characteristics to west and SW Latvia seems quite unexplicable.
If we now return and look at the entire peculiar theory about the earliest migrations of the Finno-Ugric (not to say Uralic) peoples, it does seem rather strange and unnatural. I suppose, however, that it is the only possible one.
Regardless of factors uncontrollable by the author, like the beliefs about the eastern migration of the Comb-Ceramic culture from an initial area by the Baltic sea, it is supported by the apparently linguistically well-grounded theories about the starting-point for the spread of these tribes at and immediately before the beginning of history, as well as by important race-biological reasons. Only by this theory is it possible to explain how the Baltic sea Finnish tribes only in a very small degree have “dark” Wjatkitt and other blood from the area of the Volga, while a considerable amount of “blonde”, East Baltic blood (alsowithout regard of late strains from Russians) is present also among the most genuine Volga finnish tribes. It is impossible that the East Baltic race were ever situated beyond the Volga. It had to originate in close proximity to the Nordid and East Nordid, that is, in an area with a relatively cool summer climate, and not in the regions over there which are almost desert-hot in the summer. (Moreover, they were probably even hotter during at least most of the prehistoric climatic periods after the end of the Ice Age). These theories do after all successfully combine the apparently unquestionable facts, that the origin of the East Baltic race is immediately to the east of the Baltic sea, and the the last spreading area of the Finno-Ugrian peoples was by the Volga and the Oká.

Agrippa
Thursday, May 18th, 2006, 09:07 PM
I made a thread about Finno-Ugrians and how Eastbaltids came up most likely:
http://forums.skadi.net/showthread.php?t=55890

vingul
Thursday, May 18th, 2006, 09:39 PM
The Baltid section (http://www.snpa.skadi.net/rg-baltid.htm) is now available, subject to future change.

palesye
Thursday, May 18th, 2006, 09:46 PM
The Russian wasn't Baltid looking at all IMO even if he was from St. Petes.

How did he look like? Americans actually have rather interesting view on Russians, I think. All "Russians" in American movies are played either by Jewish immigrants or by people from south Slavic countries.
And in 90% of American films Russians are usually dark eyed & dark haired. The only exception that come to my mind is communist boxer played by Dolph Lundgren. :D

vingul
Thursday, May 18th, 2006, 10:00 PM
The only exception that come to my mind is communist boxer played by Dolph Lundgren. :D

Not to forget, Sean Connery in The Hunt for Red October. :P

Lissu
Thursday, May 18th, 2006, 10:01 PM
How did he look like? Americans actually have rather interesting view on Russians, I think. All "Russians" in American movies are played either by Jewish immigrants or by people from south Slavic countries.
And in 90% of American films Russians are usually dark eyed & dark haired. The only exception that come to my mind is communist boxer played by Dolph Lundgren. :DHmm... I don't think he was Jewish... perhaps he was something which is called Pontid, I'm not so familiar with this type. He had (mousey) brown hair and brown eyes. Very nice person, he had been working in Finland for few years and spoke perfect Finnish except that he was unable to pronounce certain vowels correctly, as most Slavs can't.

As for the Italo-American, well, according to his looks he could pass as Jewish... But I think he's simply a med. However not your typical American because he has lived in Finland for almost a decade now. He doesn't speak Finnish though, but when he once was kicked (not literally :D) in the arse we found out that he actually speaks Finnish quite well but is only shy on speaking it.

symmakhos
Thursday, May 18th, 2006, 10:07 PM
How did he look like? Americans actually have rather interesting view on Russians, I think. All "Russians" in American movies are played either by Jewish immigrants or by people from south Slavic countries.
And in 90% of American films Russians are usually dark eyed & dark haired. The only exception that come to my mind is communist boxer played by Dolph Lundgren. :D

Another exception: John Malkovich (he may even be Russian) in "Rounders".

Mannerheim
Thursday, May 18th, 2006, 10:13 PM
In Russia there is numerous different races and their sub-types.

So it is then very hard to determine what so called "ordinary" russian looks like.

vingul
Thursday, May 18th, 2006, 10:13 PM
Another exception: John Malkovich (he may even be Russian) in "Rounders".

I seem to remember that his parents were both Croats, for whatever it's worth.

vingul
Thursday, May 18th, 2006, 10:19 PM
In Russia there is numerous different races and their sub-types.

So it is then very hard to determine what so called "ordinary" russian looks like.

Sure, but in the eyes of outsiders, a particular racial stereotype always evolves, however imprecise. For instance, a lot of people seem to think of the Irish as predominantly green-eyed, whereas green eyes are actually very uncommon there (this might have something to do with the natural complementarity of red hair vs. green eyes, and the notion of Ireland as a "green" country).

palesye
Thursday, May 18th, 2006, 10:21 PM
Hmm... I don't think he was Jewish... perhaps he was something which is called Pontid, I'm not so familiar with this type. He had (mousey) brown hair and brown eyes. Very nice person, he had been working in Finland for few years and spoke perfect Finnish except that he was unable to pronounce certain vowels correctly, as most Slavs can't.


Well, then his remark sounds reasonable (from American point of view). Of course there are Russians of his type... But that does not change the fact of "bastardized" view of stereotypical Russian by Americans. Anyway, this is even good, because it proves that those who left Russia and went to America were not Russians "en masse". :) And that's true. The so called "Russian mafia" has nothing to do with Russians, hehe.

...

I'll continue with wrong stereotypes. "Dima Bilan" will participate on future Eurovision (European song contest) from Russian side.

http://www.moltat.ru/f/th/1033-0-th.jpg

And he is not Russian. :D

Liquid Len
Friday, May 19th, 2006, 09:20 PM
One thing is that in Neues Material zur Ausonderrung anthropologischer Typen unter der Bevölkerung Osteuropas he study the racial types that can be found in Bielorussia, Russia and Ukrania not in the Baltic coutries you mention. Anyway I am interested to know more details about that and if you kindly can tell me the title and details about the Bunak’s work you have or you have readed will be very nice.:)

The title is V.V. Bunak, "Rassengeschichte Osteuropas" from the series "Rassengeschichte der Menschheit", edited by Ilse Schwidetzky. Vol 4, "Europa II: Ost- und Nordeuropa", 1976.

It's dealing with the whole European part of the former Soviet Union.
According to him there are the following types involved:

Eastern European type (central Russian)
Baltic type
North Pontic type
Eurasian Steppe type or type of the Andronovo culture (nowadays mostly mixed and still rel. frequent among Circassians)
Altaic-Caspian type or South Siberian type (a mixture of the Steppe type with Mongoloids)
Uralic type (= Lundman's Volgid and other types of the Urals)
Dnepr-Carpathian type (I would say Eastern Alpinoid-Alpinid)

Agrippa
Friday, May 19th, 2006, 11:10 PM
How does he define the "Eurasian steppe type"?

Liquid Len
Friday, May 19th, 2006, 11:23 PM
I don't have the book at the moment, but I think it's just the average of the Andronovo culture, i.e. quite Cromagnid, with other influences.

visigodo
Sunday, May 21st, 2006, 04:06 PM
The title is V.V. Bunak, "Rassengeschichte Osteuropas" from the series "Rassengeschichte der Menschheit", edited by Ilse Schwidetzky. Vol 4, "Europa II: Ost- und Nordeuropa", 1976.

It's dealing with the whole European part of the former Soviet Union.
According to him there are the following types involved:

Eastern European type (central Russian)
Baltic type
North Pontic type
Eurasian Steppe type or type of the Andronovo culture (nowadays mostly mixed and still rel. frequent among Circassians)
Altaic-Caspian type or South Siberian type (a mixture of the Steppe type with Mongoloids)
Uralic type (= Lundman's Volgid and other types of the Urals)
Dnepr-Carpathian type (I would say Eastern Alpinoid-Alpinid)

“Rassengeschichte der Menscheit” is really a good series of Works, I have some of them but unfortunately the Vol. 4 is not in our hands but I willl try to get it from the University trough some connections I have. Thanks for the information. ;)

Regarding the racial variants that Bunak recognize in his former work they were:

1. Nordwestlich-Großrussische.
2. Ober-Dnieper
3. Zentral-Großrussische.
4. Polessjesche.
5. Rjasan.
6. Suburale.
7. Sublappische.
8. Rechtsuferige Ukrainische.

Glenlivet
Saturday, May 27th, 2006, 03:05 PM
Symmakhos, where did you get the text in your post?

symmakhos
Monday, May 29th, 2006, 09:47 PM
You may have noticed by now:

http://forums.skadi.net/showpost.php?p=435397&postcount=28

My later posts are all translations of Lundman.

Glenlivet
Monday, May 29th, 2006, 10:25 PM
I noticed after my post. I have posted similar (if not the same) texts, that is why I was wondering.


You may have noticed by now:

http://forums.skadi.net/showpost.php?p=435397&postcount=28

My later posts are all translations of Lundman.

Skildur
Monday, May 29th, 2006, 10:34 PM
"Dima Bilan"




I wonder where surname "Bilan" originates from?

Austrvegr
Friday, June 30th, 2006, 04:44 PM
I wonder where surname "Bilan" originates from?

In French it means result or balance, but it may be just a stage name of this ugly Jew-fostered faggy creature.

Skalagrim
Saturday, July 1st, 2006, 10:17 PM
Can anyone give me examples and an explanation please? :)
Some Latvians - West Baltids, Baltids, East Baltids .... or ....
Actors.
http://forums.skadi.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=64018&stc=1&d=1151784949
http://forums.skadi.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=64019&stc=1&d=1151784949
http://forums.skadi.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=64020&stc=1&d=1151784949
http://forums.skadi.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=64021&stc=1&d=1151784949

Skalagrim
Saturday, July 1st, 2006, 10:39 PM
Can anyone give me examples and an explanation please? :)
Latvians. Musicans
http://forums.skadi.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=64042&stc=1&d=1151786229
http://forums.skadi.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=64043&stc=1&d=1151786229
http://forums.skadi.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=64044&stc=1&d=1151786229

Skalagrim
Saturday, July 1st, 2006, 10:58 PM
Can anyone give me examples and an explanation please? :)

Latvians. Misc.
http://forums.skadi.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=64062&stc=1&d=1151787345
http://forums.skadi.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=64063&stc=1&d=1151787345
http://forums.skadi.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=64064&stc=1&d=1151787345

Mannerheim
Sunday, July 2nd, 2006, 03:52 AM
http://forums.skadi.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=64062&stc=1&d=1151787345


Hes very west-baltic.I recognize same features in me.

Mannerheim
Sunday, July 2nd, 2006, 03:56 AM
http://forums.skadi.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=64062&stc=1&d=1151787345


Hes very west-baltic.I recognize same features in me.

Hell,when i look myself in a mirror i resemble him very much.

Well,maybe im just west-baltic though i think this guy haves some nordid mix too.

Skalagrim
Sunday, July 2nd, 2006, 11:51 AM
Can anyone give me examples ....... please? :)

Some Latvians.
http://forums.skadi.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=64107&stc=1&d=1151833771
http://forums.skadi.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=64106&stc=1&d=1151833771
http://forums.skadi.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=64105&stc=1&d=1151833771
http://forums.skadi.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=64104&stc=1&d=1151833771

Skalagrim
Sunday, July 2nd, 2006, 11:59 AM
Can anyone give me examples ........ please? :)
Latvians.
http://forums.skadi.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=64108&stc=1&d=1151834276
http://forums.skadi.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=64109&stc=1&d=1151834276
http://forums.skadi.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=64110&stc=1&d=1151834276

Skalagrim
Sunday, July 2nd, 2006, 12:04 PM
Can anyone give me examples ....... please? :)
Latvians.
http://forums.skadi.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=64111&stc=1&d=1151834570
http://forums.skadi.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=64112&stc=1&d=1151834570
http://forums.skadi.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=64113&stc=1&d=1151834570
http://forums.skadi.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=64114&stc=1&d=1151834570

Mannerheim
Sunday, July 2nd, 2006, 01:47 PM
Some of them look rather nordid than just baltid.

Agrippa
Sunday, July 2nd, 2006, 04:23 PM
Yes, various of them being Nordid or having Nordid influence, this one is pred. Eastnordid and could be a direct Corded survivor like of the Proto-Baltoslavs:
http://forums.skadi.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=64042&stc=1&d=1151786229

Skildur
Sunday, July 2nd, 2006, 10:19 PM
Hey, Skalagrim! Great to see you at Skadi.
The Latvians that I know:

http://www.nhl.ru/player_photo/Sandis%20OZOLINSH%20-%20Riga,%20Latvia%20.jpg http://nhlstars.narod.ru/olympic/latvia/ozolinsh3.jpg


http://www.chlq.org/images/photo/Irbe.jpghttp://www.tvnet.lv/sports/images/upload/irbe_bez_kiveres2_0.jpg

http://www.eraksti.lv/B/irbe.jpg



http://rocket.lhpq.net/skrastins.jpghttp://www.skrastins.com/PamBerridge5.jpg

Agrippa
Sunday, July 2nd, 2006, 10:33 PM
Last one is interesting, mostly unreduced Eastcromagnid with minor Nordid influences, close to some Kurgan variants I assume.

Skalagrim
Sunday, July 2nd, 2006, 11:03 PM
Can anyone give me examples .....please? :) More Latvians.
http://forums.skadi.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=64176&stc=1&d=1151873989
http://forums.skadi.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=64177&stc=1&d=1151873991
http://forums.skadi.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=64178&stc=1&d=1151873989
http://forums.skadi.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=64179&stc=1&d=1151873989

http://forums.skadi.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=64181&stc=1&d=1151874411
http://forums.skadi.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=64183&stc=1&d=1151874411http://forums.skadi.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=64184&stc=1&d=1151874661
http://forums.skadi.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=64185&stc=1&d=1151874661


Can anyone give me examples ... please? :) Latvians.
http://forums.skadi.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=64189&stc=1&d=1151874889
http://forums.skadi.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=64188&stc=1&d=1151874889
http://forums.skadi.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=64186&stc=1&d=1151874889
http://forums.skadi.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=64187&stc=1&d=1151874889

Skalagrim
Sunday, July 2nd, 2006, 11:22 PM
Can anyone give me examples .... please? :)
Latvians.
http://forums.skadi.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=64193&stc=1&d=1151875228
http://forums.skadi.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=64190&stc=1&d=1151875228
http://forums.skadi.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=64191&stc=1&d=1151875228
http://forums.skadi.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=64192&stc=1&d=1151875228

Skalagrim
Sunday, July 2nd, 2006, 11:29 PM
Can anyone give me examples ....... please? :)
Latvians.
http://forums.skadi.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=64194&stc=1&d=1151875634
http://forums.skadi.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=64195&stc=1&d=1151875634
http://forums.skadi.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=64196&stc=1&d=1151875634
http://forums.skadi.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=64197&stc=1&d=1151875634

Skalagrim
Sunday, July 2nd, 2006, 11:34 PM
Can anyone give me examples ....... please? :)
Latvians.
http://forums.skadi.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=64198&stc=1&d=1151875946
http://forums.skadi.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=64199&stc=1&d=1151875946
http://forums.skadi.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=64200&stc=1&d=1151875946
http://forums.skadi.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=64201&stc=1&d=1151875946

Kuhinoor
Wednesday, December 20th, 2006, 11:21 PM
Now I realized what is it that makes him Russian looking...
http://forums.skadi.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=59191&d=1147495869 http://www.npr.org/news/specials/putin/images/portrait.jpg
The mouth-nose area. Putin has stronger, eyes without epicanthus and nose is narrower between the eyes, but still there is something similar.
He doesn't look Russian AT ALL!

Lissu
Wednesday, December 20th, 2006, 11:28 PM
He doesn't look Russian AT ALL!Which one of them?

Kuhinoor
Wednesday, December 20th, 2006, 11:37 PM
Which one of them?
Well, the first one of course. He is some Nenetz.

Putin looks Russian, as well as Karelian or Veps or somewhat. But that's common among Northern Russians.
Some Russians still like to joke about him being looking as a tipical Chuhonets:D

Ovid
Thursday, December 21st, 2006, 02:09 AM
http://forums.skadi.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=64196&stc=1&d=1151875634
http://forums.skadi.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=64197&stc=1&d=1151875634
She looks like my sister. The profile and the pigmentation are very similar.


He doesn't look Russian AT ALL!
Well this guy is something I would call "stereotypically Russian":
http://forums.skadi.net/classify_me_please-t86104.html
http://forums.skadi.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=90126&d=1166607629
http://forums.skadi.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=90127&d=1166607629
http://forums.skadi.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=90128&d=1166607629
What do you think?

Kuhinoor
Thursday, December 21st, 2006, 04:58 PM
She looks like my sister. The profile and the pigmentation are very similar.
Well this guy is something I would call "stereotypically Russian":
http://forums.skadi.net/classify_me_please-t86104.html
http://forums.skadi.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=90126&d=1166607629
http://forums.skadi.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=90127&d=1166607629
http://forums.skadi.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=90128&d=1166607629
What do you think?
I think you've never seen Russians. He looks Chechenian. Russians don't have such noses and eyebrows and even if this guy is Russian, it doesn't mean he looks "stereotipically" Russian.
Oswiu is English, but he doesn't look English, e.g.

Ovid
Thursday, December 21st, 2006, 11:19 PM
I think you've never seen Russians. He looks Chechenian. Russians don't have such noses and eyebrows and even if this guy is Russian, it doesn't mean he looks "stereotipically" Russian.

His looks are IMO still very typically Russian, not necessarily typical for "ethnic Russians" but typical for Russia as a whole. The drawing on this page represents well the stereotypical Russian look; A Russian nose combined with strong eyebrows:
http://luddigt.kommiekomiks.com/rossijskij_nos.htm
Many Russian immigrants in Finland look a bit like him. I have been in Russia too and I have seen many Russians.

Oswiu is English, but he doesn't look English, e.g.
Oswiu's dark Cromagnid look is quite common in the British Isles. In fact people like him are most likely the oldest inhabitants there.
What is your "average Russian" then? A blond, progressive East-Nordid?
http://www.elenadementieva.info/images/1.gif
http://www.nndb.com/people/673/000116325/alexander-godunov-4-sized.jpg

Lissu
Thursday, December 21st, 2006, 11:59 PM
A blond, progressive East-Nordid?
http://www.elenadementieva.info/images/1.gif
http://www.nndb.com/people/673/000116325/alexander-godunov-4-sized.jpgMust be the ideal, but most certainly not the norm.

Sorry for answering on behalf of Kuhinoor :D

goldgrube
Friday, December 22nd, 2006, 12:31 AM
His looks are IMO still very typically Russian, not necessarily typical for "ethnic Russians" but typical for Russia as a whole. The drawing on this page represents well the stereotypical Russian look; A Russian nose combined with strong eyebrows:
http://luddigt.kommiekomiks.com/rossijskij_nos.htm


http://luddigt.kommiekomiks.com/index.htm

Just coincidently stumbled over this page? =)

Ovid
Friday, December 22nd, 2006, 12:44 AM
http://luddigt.kommiekomiks.com/index.htm
Just coincidently stumbled over this page? =)
:-O :D LOL. I found that "Russian nose" page straight from Google. Didn't noticed that is was a home page of some "hairy fetish".

Yes, various of them being Nordid or having Nordid influence, this one is pred. Eastnordid and could be a direct Corded survivor like of the Proto-Baltoslavs:
http://forums.skadi.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=64042&stc=1&d=1151786229
He reminds me of Finnish ice hockey player Ville Nieminen.

http://sporten.yle.fi/turin2006/biobilder/nieminen_ville.jpg

Kuhinoor
Friday, December 22nd, 2006, 11:15 AM
Must be the ideal, but most certainly not the norm.
Sorry for answering on behalf of Kuhinoor :D
Yes, it is the norm, along with Baltid and North-Pontid.
About 80 % of ethnic Russians are Nordish and about 30% are pure Nordids.
http://www.government.ru/government/rfgovernment/rfgovernmentmember/
Of 17 ministers 9 are Russians. - №1, 4, 5, 7, 9, 11, 12, 13, 17
Among 9 Russians 8 are Nordish. - №1, 4, 7, 9, 11, 12, 13, 17
Among 8 Nordish - 5 are Nordids. № - 1, 4, 7, 11, 17.
№ 12 is in fact North-Pontis or something like that, thus - also Nordish.
№ 13 is a typical Baltid - thus, Nordish.
№14 and 15 are Ukrainians and one of them is Nordid the other one - Nordish.

That's quite a good example of how do real Russians look.
Russian is not someone from Russia, Russian is ethnic Russian.
The poverty of English language is not our problem.
In German Russe and Russlaender is not the same.
As well as in Russian - russkiy - ethnic Russian, rossiyanin - any citizen of Russian Federation.

Lissu
Friday, December 22nd, 2006, 01:25 PM
Politicians are not never very good example of the average. I think it has been Agrippa who have said politicians and such are usually those who are more progressive than the average of the people. And I didn't find all of those particurarily Nordish, at least in the sense I know the definition.

Not sure if North Pontid can be considered as Nordish. I find the phenotype alien in the Northern lands.

Kuhinoor
Friday, December 22nd, 2006, 05:56 PM
Not sure if North Pontid can be considered as Nordish. I find the phenotype alien in the Northern lands.

nordish.com - read something, before posting staff:thumbdown
North Atlantid is a northern subrace, the fact it's rare in Finland doesn't mean it's not Nordish.
Lappoids and East Baltids aren't common among Russians unlike Finns, still they live in the North:D

Russia is a northern land, as well as Germany, Poland and Britain and North Atlantids are common in our lands. If the North is only Scandinavia - what's use in the population as big as one megapolis.:D

Lissu
Friday, December 22nd, 2006, 07:00 PM
North Atlantid is a northern subrace, the fact it's rare in Finland doesn't mean it's not Nordish.Yes, North Atlantid is, but we were talking about Pontids here.



Russia is a northern land, as well as Germany, Poland and Britain and North Atlantids are common in our lands. If the North is only Scandinavia - what's use in the population as big as one megapolis.:D...So? Quality matters, not quantity.

goldgrube
Friday, December 22nd, 2006, 07:29 PM
both matter

Kuhinoor
Friday, December 22nd, 2006, 08:10 PM
Yes, North Atlantid is, but we were talking about Pontids here.
...So? Quality matters, not quantity.
North Pontid is a science fiction.
90% of ethnic Russians are:
Nordids (estern, halstatt, scando, corded, celtic)
Nordid-Baltids
Baltids
West-Baltids
Norics
North-Atlantids as they are described on nordish.com

The term North-Pontid is used to name the eastern analogue of North-Atlantid as the Russian sea of Atlantic Ocean is the Black Sea.
If we, Russians, say to you, a Finn, that there are a lot of North-Atlantids in Russia - then that's it. Believe it or stop the flame.

Death and the Sun
Friday, December 22nd, 2006, 08:28 PM
If we, Russians, say to you, a Finn, that there are a lot of North-Atlantids in Russia - then that's it. Believe it or stop the flame.

How would you react to a Finn who did neither -- nor believed it nor "stopped the flame", but rather simply departed from the parameters you try to set for the discussions altogether, i.e. simply asked you to prove this?

Another one:


If the North is only Scandinavia - what's use in the population as big as one megapolis.

... Meaning? We might as well be wiped out? Why am I not surprised at this?

After all, there are many, many, small ethnicities that, to their mistfortune find themselves living within the borders of the Russian federation.

But hey, there are only a few thousand of them, or a few tens of thousands, or a few hundreds of thousands. That's still less than the population of one Russian megalopolis (where 100% of the inhabitants enjoy a 100% happy and contented life, always and forever, as we all know).

Kuhinoor
Friday, December 22nd, 2006, 09:17 PM
How would you react to a Finn who did neither -- nor believed it nor "stopped the flame", but rather simply departed from the parameters you try to set for the discussions altogether, i.e. simply asked you to prove this?
Another one:
... Meaning? We might as well be wiped out? Why am I not surprised at this?
After all, there are many, many, small ethnicities that, to their mistfortune find themselves living within the borders of the Russian federation.
But hey, there are only a few thousand of them, or a few tens of thousands, or a few hundreds of thousands. That's still less than the population of one Russian megalopolis (where 100% of the inhabitants enjoy a 100% happy and contented life, always and forever, as we all know).
Yes, my white brother, I fully and totally agree with you. Russian Imperialism is disgusting.
You know, my deep persuasion is that the wild barbarious Russia is an awful enemy of the great and sophisticated European civilization.
Millions of people, especially Caucasians and Tatars, as well as Poles, Estonians, Lithuanians etc. before suffer under the Terroristic and totalitarian regime of Russians, being opressed every day. They can't speak their languages, warship their religion! Only Russians get high positions in government and parlament, only Russians may live where they want to! It's insufferable!
I fully agree with such great western leaders as Carl XII of Sweden, Jarl Birger, all Roman Popes, Napoleon Bonaparte, Adolf Hitler, Winston Churchill, Juzef Pilsudski, Stefan Batory, Margarett Tatcher, Madeleine Albright, George Clemanco etc. who always said that Russia should be destroyed as it's a permanent source of danger to the existence of Europe! History proved this point of view.
Margaret Tatcher said we need only 50 000 000 Russians to serve the oil- and gas pipe-lines.
Europeans! We beg you - save us from ourselves, "our land is great and vast, but there is no order in it - come and rule over us"!

Lissu
Friday, December 22nd, 2006, 09:37 PM
North Pontid is a science fiction.
90% of ethnic Russians are:
Nordids (estern, halstatt, scando, corded, celtic)Yea, sure. Not even Sweden is 90% Nordid.

goldgrube
Friday, December 22nd, 2006, 10:01 PM
+ rest of what he listed

He gave u the percentage of Nordid Russians on previous page, 30%, which I think is a bit high

Kuhinoor
Friday, December 22nd, 2006, 10:20 PM
+ rest of what he listed
He gave u the percentage of Nordid Russians on previous page, 30%, which I think is a bit high
I meant Nordids with Nordid-Baltids, as it's often difficult to measure how much the Cromagnid admixture is. For example, Sharapova definetely has a Baltid admixture, but on nordish.com she is among pure East-Nordids.