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galvez
Sunday, November 2nd, 2003, 03:07 AM
Here is the Mona Lisa:

http://photo.shoppingsavvy.com/f7-e2-Mona-Lisa.html

She looks like a typical Mediterranean -- "swarthy" and brunette.

If you don't want to respond to "Nordicists" then don't. No need to show your contempt for them. -- cosmocreator

galvez
Sunday, November 2nd, 2003, 08:26 AM
If you don't want to respond to "Nordicists" then don't. No need to show your contempt for them. -- cosmocreator

So it's OK for members here to bash Southern Europeans but it's not OK to criticize "Nordicists?" I don't get it -- please explain this to me.

Let me also add that the polite thing for a moderator to do is to reply to a post explaining what the problem is -- if there is a problem -- rather than editing the post itself. It's a basic courtesy that transcends ideological differences.

Just out of curiosity: does this forum routinely censor posts? Is this question itself not allowed?

Nordhammer
Sunday, November 2nd, 2003, 12:05 PM
Given that she is highskulled and broadfaced, I don't think she can be purely Mediterranean. The size of the skull goes beyond the typical Alpine, and also with the spiralled locks (slightly rufous?) typical of Irish UPs for example. Possibly Alpine+UP, with minor Med if that.

http://www.ibiblio.org/wm/paint/auth/vinci/joconde/joconde.jpg

Loki
Sunday, November 2nd, 2003, 01:43 PM
The Mona Lisa, known as La Gioconda ~ Leonardo da Vinci.

c. 1503 - 1506
Oil on wood
H: 77cm - W: 55cm

The exact identity of the model remains a mystery. It is thought to be a portrait of Lisa Gherardini (1479 - before 1550), who in 1495 married the distinguished Florentine Francesco di Bartolomeo di Zanoli del Giocondo.

http://skadi.net/scans/monalisa.jpg

http://skadi.net/scans/monalisazoom.jpg

galvez
Sunday, November 2nd, 2003, 04:52 PM
It is not allowed to "bash" any European racial or ethnic group; you are allowed to "criticize" such groups, though. Please read the Skadi Forum rules:

"5. We allow criticism of all Ethnicities, Subraces, and Races if presented in a civil and non-slanderous manner. Your attitude and presentation determines whether you might face disciplinary procedures."


Hmmm... because the post was edited -- which is highly unusual -- it is impossible for me to prove that I did not attack any European groups. Somehow I feel as though I am in a Holocaust trial, and denying the Holocaust is considered "defamation" to Jews, even though it's a matter of historical accuracy to say the Jews have twisted facts and forced others to accept them.

Just a thought -- I sense some take things personal around these parts even though they should not.

galvez
Sunday, November 2nd, 2003, 04:55 PM
Given that she is highskulled and broadfaced, I don't think she can be purely Mediterranean. The size of the skull goes beyond the typical Alpine, and also with the spiralled locks (slightly rufous?) typical of Irish UPs for example. Possibly Alpine+UP, with minor Med if that.

http://www.ibiblio.org/wm/paint/auth/vinci/joconde/joconde.jpg

This is semantics. When I say Mona Lisa looks "Mediterranean" I mean she is typical of an Italian. Furthermore, if you are correct that a high skull makes one Alpine, then I am a pretty Alpine person given my high skull. Not that I care to be considered Alpine, since I am a proud Mediterranean (even though some racialists have said I am Alpine or largely Alpine).

Dienekes_Pontikos
Sunday, November 2nd, 2003, 11:47 PM
Yes, Mona Lisa is representative of the classical Mediterranean racial type. She has a moderately long regular oval face, smooth features, a fine narrow straight nose, and curly dark hair.

Nordhammer
Monday, November 3rd, 2003, 12:58 AM
This is semantics. When I say Mona Lisa looks "Mediterranean" I mean she is typical of an Italian. Furthermore, if you are correct that a high skull makes one Alpine, then I am a pretty Alpine person given my high skull. Not that I care to be considered Alpine, since I am a proud Mediterranean (even though some racialists have said I am Alpine or largely Alpine).

Could this woman exist in the Mediterranean region? Sure. Is she actually a lowskulled, dolichocephalic, slender-faced gracile type? No. She is not purely Mediterranean. It's not semantics.

Awar
Monday, November 3rd, 2003, 01:34 AM
Again.....it's weird to decide to classify humans from a painting, especially from a reneissance painting.

This portrait is highly stylized, you can't find such people in reality, I think it's silly to try to classify Mona Lisa from this.

Perhaps I can find more realistic drawn SKETCHES of Mona Lisa by DaVinci, these could prove to be more suitable for classification.

Dr. Solar Wolff
Monday, November 3rd, 2003, 03:16 AM
Mona Lisa is a Mediterranean, that is obvious. There are many bright, gifted, honorable people who are Mediterraneans. But I believe in retaining the uniqueness of the northern European gene pool. This excludes southern (at least) Mediterraneans from my focuss of interest. There is a view among some that an Aryan is to an ordinary white man what a black man is to a white man. This view was put somewhat differently by Hermann Goering using Mussolini but seems to express the same idea.

Hitler (Mussolini's friend) said to Goering just before Mussolini's visit to Germany: "I think of Mussolini as a Roman among Italians".

To which Goering replied: "Yes, but here in Berlin, he is just an Italian among Germans".

Übersoldat
Monday, November 3rd, 2003, 03:47 AM
I think the works of renaissance portraits, (specially da Vinci) are precise enough to evaluate painted subjects subracialy since they was infact Promethean in their application of anatomist and geometric principles in their studies of humans.

Anatomy in the Renaissance:

http://www.metmuseum.org/toah/hd/anat/hd_anat.htm


Italian Renaissance artists became anatomists by necessity, as they attempted to refine a more lifelike, sculptural portrayal of the human figure. Indeed, until about 1500—1510, their investigations surpassed much of the knowledge of anatomy that was taught at the universities.
To their enormous credit, Italian Renaissance artists also pioneered a consistent vocabulary of anatomical illustration with which new discoveries could be precisely recorded.
Leonardo da Vinci, who is without doubt the most significant artist-anatomist of all time, first undertook a series of detailed studies of the human skull in 1489, borrowing from the architect's rigorous technique of representing three-dimensional forms in plan, section, elevation, and perspectival view. He thereby invented a new vocabulary for the history of scientific illustration. Leonardo produced his most precisely drawn dissections of the human body in 1510—11, probably working under the direction of the young professor of anatomy, Marcantonio della Torre, from the University of Pavia. None of Leonardo's discoveries were published in his lifetime. However, his methods of illustrating the dissection of muscles in layers, as well as some of his "plan, section, and elevation" techniques, seem to have become widely disseminated, and were incorporated in the first comprehensively illustrated Renaissance treatise, Andreas Vesalius' De humani corporis fabrica, published in Basel in 1543 (53.682). Some of Vesalius' images of partially dissected bodies, set dramatically in a landscape, appear to have been designed by Titian's pupil, Jan Steven van Calcar (1499?—1546).

http://www.metmuseum.org/toah/images/hb/hb_53.682.jpg

Louky
Monday, November 3rd, 2003, 07:04 AM
I think the works of renaissance portraits, (specially da Vinci) are precise enough to evaluate painted subjects subracialy since they was infact Promethean in their application of anatomist and geometric principles in their studies of humans.

...especially if it's a portrait, that's unlikely to be paid for unless it's a good likeness of the subject. Even DaVinci had to eat.

As far as the Mona Lisa goes, I trust more the shape than the color. She hasn't been cleaned for a long, long time.

Nordhammer
Monday, November 3rd, 2003, 08:24 AM
In any case, as another person said, think of it as classifying the picture or portrait, rather than the actual person. For a proper classification one would have to be measured.