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Aeternitas
Friday, April 21st, 2006, 08:29 PM
One rendition of the coat of the Holy Roman Empire was the "Quaternion Eagle" printed by David de Negker of Augsburg, after a 1510 woodcut by Hans Burgkmair. It showed a selection of 56 shields of various Imperial States in groups of four on the feathers of a double-headed eagle supporting, in place of a shield, Christ on the Cross. The top, larger shields, are those of the seven Prince Electors, the ecclesiastical: Trier, Cologne and Mainz as well as of the titular "Prefect of Rome" on the right wing; the secular: Bohemia, Electorate of the Palatinate, Saxony and Brandenburg on the left. The depiction also appeared on the Imperial Eagle beaker.

Heinrich van Beeck

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/4/4c/Quaternionenadler_Agrippina.jpg/387px-Quaternionenadler_Agrippina.jpg

Hans Burgkmair, 1510

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/e/eb/Hans_Burgkmair_quaternionenadler.jpg/798px-Hans_Burgkmair_quaternionenadler.jpg

David de Negker, 1510

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/e/e5/Quaterionenadler_David_de_Negker.jpg/770px-Quaterionenadler_David_de_Negker.jpg

On Wikipedia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coats_of_arms_of_the_Holy_Roman_Empire#Q uaternion_Eagle)

Oswiu
Thursday, April 27th, 2006, 01:31 AM
I know it's quite a lot to ask, but can any Kameraden hier please list the names of the shields on this wonderful Eagle posted by Aeternitas? They're not very easy to read - I can manage some, but not all, but half the problem here is that the names of the principalities and dukedoms and so on are not so familiar to an Englander as they would be to a German.
http://forums.skadi.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=57473
First feather;
Trier. Koeln. Regensburg?? C...? Salzburg??
Second;
Another Koeln?? Augsburg. Metz?? Ach?? Lubeck.
3rd;
L???? Westerburg? Th??? Alwalden??
4;
Mainz? Nuernberg. ?? R?? Stramberg??
5;
M? Brandenburg. ?? Baden.
6;
P......... Rom ??!? Braunschweig. Bayern. Schwaben. L?????
7;
B? B????? n.[ieder?] Sachsen. Westerreich?? Sch?
8;
Pfalz. D?? E? Hessen. Leuchtenberg??
9;
Cleves? Savoy?? Swarzburg? Zilli???
10;
Sachsen. A??????? Weissenbach? Fr??berg S??????/
11;
Bamberg. Ulm?? ??? S????//////
12;
Brandenburg [again?] L??? Rottenburg?? Aldenburg??

Can I ask about the origin of the image too? Interesting to see the nonGerman parts of the HRE in there too!

Herjafadir
Sunday, April 30th, 2006, 03:49 PM
Hi Oswiu ! Just have a look at this link:

http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bild:Quaterionenadler_David_de_Negker.jp g

Then, click on the picture for a higher resolution ! :victory


Interesting to see the nonGerman parts of the HRE in there too!
Got some dukedoms and Reichsstädte...


6th feather: L????? ~~> Luthring ~~> Lothringen/Lorraine (part and parcel of France) :thumbdown


8th feather: E? ~~> Edelsasz ~~> Elsass/Alsace (part and parcel of France) :grind

11th feather: ??? S??? ~~> Hagenau Sletstat~~> Hagenau
Schlettstadt/Haguenau Selestat (french cities in Alsace)


:uzi:ffrance:sniper:


12th feather: Lützelburg... I'd would say Lëtzebuerg/Luxemburg (arms may have changed, strange !)



Regards.

Oswiu
Sunday, April 30th, 2006, 06:22 PM
Hi Oswiu ! Just have a look at this link:

http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bild:Quaterionenadler_David_de_Negker.jp g

Then, click on the picture for a higher resolution ! :victory
Good man, Herjafadir! Vielen Thanks!
And My God, is that Bild BIG! :-O

6th feather: L????? ~~> Luthring ~~> Lothringen/Lorraine (part and parcel of France) :thumbdown


8th feather: E? ~~> Edelsasz ~~> Elsass/Alsace (part and parcel of France) :grind
Edel = Noble, or our Old English AEthel. What is the sasz part?

A very odd orthography there. [That last word almost looks Polish!] Is it a dialect I don't know, or just old spelling?

Aeternitas
Sunday, April 30th, 2006, 07:03 PM
The Reichsstädte were the imperial cities. Some source in English on this:


Imperial Cities

The Imperial Cities (Reichsstädte) contained 51 cities, grouped in the Bench of the Rhine (14 cities) and the Bench of Swabia (37 cities). Their position in the Reichstag was not always clear; in particular, their ability to cast decisive votes, which was nevertheless confirmed in 1648. They had no say on certain matters: the admission of new States of the Empire, the investiture of imperial fiefs (as long as they were not affected), imperial wars (after 1803, when they gained the neutrality they had long requested). The presiding city was the one in which the Reichstag was held, which was always Regensburg after 1663.

In 1803, 45 cities were mediatized, leaving 6 cities: Augsburg, Lübeck, Nürnberg, Frankfurt, Bremen, Hamburg. Augsburg and Nürnberg were absorbed by Bavaria in 1806. Frankfurt became a grand-duchy in 1810 but re-emerged with a minicipal government in 1813. Frankfurt was the seat of the Bund's assembly from 1816 to 1866; it was annexed by Prussia in that year. Lübeck was annexed to Schleswig-Holstein under the Nazis in 1937. At present, Bremen and Hamburg still exist as autonomous Länder in the Federal Republic of Germany, the last remnants of the Imperial cities. http://www.heraldica.org/topics/national/hre.htm

On Alsace:

Old High German "Elisâzzo" = "Alsace" = "land on the other side of the Rhine". http://www.etymologie.info/~e/f_/fr-__alsa.html#Alsace (http://www.etymologie.info/%7Ee/f_/fr-__alsa.html#Alsace)


Alsace (http://encyclopedia.thefreedictionary.com/Alsace) - from Latin (http://encyclopedia.thefreedictionary.com/Latin) Alisatia, a latinised form of the Germanic name that also yields Old High German El-sasz, allegedly meaning "foreign settlement" http://encyclopedia.thefreedictionary.com/List%20of%20subnational%20name%20etymolo gies


Alsace (http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=Alsace) http://www.etymonline.com/graphics/dictionary.gif (http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=Alsace)region between France and Germany (disputed by them 18c.-19c.), M.L. Alsatia, from O.H.G. *Ali-sazzo "inhabitant of the other (bank of the Rhine)," from P.Gmc. *alja "other" + O.H.G. -sazzo "inhabitant," lit. "one who sits." Alsatian was adopted 1917 by the Kennel Club for "German Shepherd dog" to avoid the associations of German; the breed has no connection with Alsace.
http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=Alsace

Oswiu
Wednesday, June 21st, 2006, 11:25 PM
*Ali-sazzo "inhabitant of the other (bank of the Rhine)," from P.Gmc. *alja "other" + O.H.G. -sazzo "inhabitant," lit. "one who sits."
Vielen Dank fur that, Aeternitas!

This *alja is very interesting. Are there any modern reflexes of this in a modern Germanic language?

Irish has the cognate 'eile', and I suppose Latin alias is the same [alien?]. The Greek prefix allo- too.

I can't think of a Slavonic cognate, but lyuboy comes to mind ['any'].

markusnaser
Saturday, February 3rd, 2007, 08:22 PM
Some detailed information about the Quaternionenadler:
First of all, we have to distinguish between the feathers (in fact, we have 12 of them) and the uppermost row, which contains the 7 Electors of the Holy Roman Empire + the pope. On the heraldic right we can see 4 eccleciastical dignitaries, namely:

Trier = the Archbishop of Trier
Cöln = the Archbishop of Köln
Mentz = the Archbishop of Mainz
Potestat zu Rom = the realm of the pope in Rome
On the heraldic left, we see the 4 secular Electors:
Behem = the King of Bohemia
Pfaltz = the Count Palatine
Sachsen = the Duke of Saxony
Brandenburg = the Margrave of Brandenburg
These are the most important Estates of the Empire.

The rest:

First feather from the heraldic right: iiii Baurn = 4 peasants
Cöln = Köln
Regenspurg = Regensburg
Costnitz = Konstanz
Saltzburg = Salzburg

Second: iiii Stett = 4 cities
Augspurg = Augsburg
Metz = Metz
Ach = Aachen
Lubeck = Lübeck

Third: iiii Seper freien = 4 free peers
Lintpurg = Schenken von Limpurg (not: Limburg!!!)
Westerburg = count of Westerburg-Leiningen
Thussis = ?
Alwalden = ?

Forth: iiii Burgrauen = 4 burgraves
Nürnberg = burgraves of Nuremberg
Maidburg = burgraves of Magdeburg
Reinegk = burgraves of Rheineck
Stramberg = burgraves of Stromberg

Fifth: iiii Marggrauen = 4 margraves
Merchern = margraves of Mähren
Brandenburg = margraves of Brandenburg
Meichssen = margraves of Meißen
Baden = margraves of Baden

Sixth: iiii Seill = 4 ?
Braunschweig = duke of Braunschweig
Bairn = duke of Bavaria
Swaben = duke of Swabia
Lutting = duke of Lothringen

Seventh: iiii Vicari = 4 surrogates
Brabandt = Brabant
n. Sachssen = Niedersachsen
Westerreich = Westrich
Schlessi = Schlesien

Eighth: iiii Lantgrauen = 4 landgraves
Düring = Thüringen
Edelsass = Elsaß
Hessen = Hessen
Leuchtenberg = Leuchtenberg

Ninth: iiii Graven = 4 counts
Cleue = Kleve
Saphoy = Savoyen
Schwartzburg = Schwarzburg
Zilli = Cilli

Tenth: iiii Ritter = 4 knights
Anndelaw = Andlau
Weissenbach = Weissenbach
Frawnberg = Fraunberg
Strundeck = Strundeck?

Eleventh: iiii dörfer = 4 villages
Bamberg = Bamberg
Ulm = Ulm
Hagenaw = Haguenau
Slerstat = Schlettstadt

Twelfth : iiii birg = 4 castles
Magdaburg = Magdeburg
Lützelburg = Luxemburg oder Lutzelbourg?
Aldenburg = Altenburg

Oswiu
Sunday, February 4th, 2007, 02:03 AM
Vielen Dank fuer that, Markus, you're very helpful! :thumbup

Maidburg = burgraves of Magdeburg
Magdaburg = Magdeburg
Maybe one of these is something else? The Crests are very different.

Oh, and you forgot the third one down on the last feather - Rottenburg I read it as. ?

Theudiskaz
Sunday, February 4th, 2007, 02:15 AM
Vielen Dank fuer that, Markus, you're very helpful! :thumbup

Maybe one of these is something else? The Crests are very different.

Oh, and you forgot the third one down on the last feather - Rottenburg I read it as. ?
Rothenburg (ob der Tauber), Bavaria I would think.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/6/6e/Wappen_von_Rothenburg_ob_der_Tauber.png/100px-Wappen_von_Rothenburg_ob_der_Tauber.png (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Wappen_von_Rothenburg_ob_der_Taube r.png)