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Stríbog
Tuesday, August 20th, 2002, 08:02 PM
According to Nordish.com (http://www.nordish.com), the Brünn and Borreby subtypes are native to northern Europe, and derived from aboriginal upper Paleolithic hunter-gatherers. I was wondering if anyone else was confused by this? This would mean that Brünns and Borrebies were non-Indo European, and technically non-Aryan? According to that site, the only pure Aryans were Halstatt and Keltic-Nordic? This seems a little far- fetched to me. I would be more inclined to think that Brünns, Borrebies, and the Fälish, Anglo-Saxon and Trønder hybrids were all simply deviant branches of the Aryan invaders, that mutated to have slightly different phrenological phentoypes. There would be more evidence, especially linguistic, if the Brünn and Borreby types were non-Indo European. There would be some form of preserved record of their language, as there is with the Picts and Basque, both confirmed non-IE aboriginal Atlantids. I am inclined to believe that the only aboriginal Europeans are the Atlanto-Mediterraneans, and that all others are variants of Aryan invaders.

Ross
Tuesday, August 20th, 2002, 09:18 PM
NordischesBlutundEhre,

Anthropology is not about Aryans :D

Indo-European is not a racial classification too...

Halstatt- and Keltic-Nordics are not not pure Aryans (besides, Keltic-Nordic type has Alpine, Dinaric and UP admixture), they never were Aryans, perhasp, they've absorbed some Aryan blood, but, no, they weren't the original Aryans/Indo-Europeans/Indo-Germans.

Aryans were of the very distinct type, known as Aisto(Ancient)-Nordic, Battle-Axe, Corded Ware, Kurgan Folk etc. Unlike Nordics, they were both long and high skulled, their skulles were massive and approximated UP means.

Troenders (perhaps) have more Aryan blood, than other Nordics and Nordic/UP types. Anglo-Saxons also have more Aryan blood, but less than Troenders.

The Battle-Axe/Corded Ware, Aisto-Nordic type survived only in Eastern Europe, whether in the pure form, or, as UP influenced, as a West-Baltic type (Finland, Baltic States, Poland, Whiterussia, North-Western Russia), where this type is still common or even dominant.

There are individual Battle-Axes among western Nordic population, but they are *much* fewer than among West-Baltic population.

Ross
Tuesday, August 20th, 2002, 09:20 PM
Oh, I forgot...

Perun mit uns! :D

BodewinTheSilent
Wednesday, August 21st, 2002, 12:38 AM
Originally posted by NordischesBlutundEhre
According to Nordish.com (http://www.nordish.com), the Brünn and Borreby subtypes are native to northern Europe, and derived from aboriginal upper Paleolithic hunter-gatherers. I was wondering if anyone else was confused by this? This would mean that Brünns and Borrebies were non-Indo European, and technically non-Aryan? According to that site, the only pure Aryans were Halstatt and Keltic-Nordic? This seems a little far- fetched to me. I would be more inclined to think that Brünns, Borrebies, and the Fälish, Anglo-Saxon and Trønder hybrids were all simply deviant branches of the Aryan invaders, that mutated to have slightly different phrenological phentoypes. There would be more evidence, especially linguistic, if the Brünn and Borreby types were non-Indo European. There would be some form of preserved record of their language, as there is with the Picts and Basque, both confirmed non-IE aboriginal Atlantids. I am inclined to believe that the only aboriginal Europeans are the Atlanto-Mediterraneans, and that all others are variants of Aryan invaders.

This theory is untenable for several reasons.

1. The oldest known types in Northern Europe, are Upper Palaeolithic types, such as the cranium from Cheddar Gorge, England.

2. Genetic surveys (those of Sykes and Cavalli-Sforza), reveal that at least 70% of European genetic variation is Palaeolithic in origin. Therefore, most Europeans are descended from pre-Indo-European migrants.

3. There is no evidence of a mass migration into Northern and Western Europe. The Kurgan culture (Proto-Indo-Europeans), seem to have spread their language and culture through elite dominance, meaning small numbers of migrants.

4. The Kurgan "Waves" seem to petre out in central Europe, with the I-E languages being spread further north and west by acculturated Battle Axe, Corded Ware and Bell Beaker peoples.

5. The languages of the pre-Indo-Europeans have been preserved. For instance, there is a "Vasconian" sub-strata in German (related to Basque), which is believed to be a remnant of the language spoken by the Megalith builders. Many terms in German dealing with hunting, fishing, the sea, etc., seem to derive from this lost language.

BodewinTheSilent
Wednesday, August 21st, 2002, 12:42 AM
Originally posted by Ross
NordischesBlutundEhre,

Anthropology is not about Aryans :D

Indo-European is not a racial classification too...

Halstatt- and Keltic-Nordics are not not pure Aryans (besides, Keltic-Nordic type has Alpine, Dinaric and UP admixture), they never were Aryans, perhasp, they've absorbed some Aryan blood, but, no, they weren't the original Aryans/Indo-Europeans/Indo-Germans.

Aryans were of the very distinct type, known as Aisto(Ancient)-Nordic, Battle-Axe, Corded Ware, Kurgan Folk etc. Unlike Nordics, they were both long and high skulled, their skulles were massive and approximated UP means.

Troenders (perhaps) have more Aryan blood, than other Nordics and Nordic/UP types. Anglo-Saxons also have more Aryan blood, but less than Troenders.

The Battle-Axe/Corded Ware, Aisto-Nordic type survived only in Eastern Europe, whether in the pure form, or, as UP influenced, as a West-Baltic type (Finland, Baltic States, Poland, Whiterussia, North-Western Russia), where this type is still common or even dominant.

There are individual Battle-Axes among western Nordic population, but they are *much* fewer than among West-Baltic population.

The Battle-Axe people were only acculturated Corded Ware Nordics, deriving from the "Old European" population. The people of the Kurgan culture (Proto-Indo-Europeans), were predominantly Cro-Magnon in type, with a Nordic minority.

Ross
Wednesday, August 21st, 2002, 09:59 AM
Battle-Axe people have INTRODUCED indo-european language and culture to other europeans.

Slavic and Baltic languages are the closest to the original IE language.

Heimdall,

Lundman was wrong?!

With what anthropological type YOU do associate Aryan/IE culture/language? With Danubian Nordics??

BodewinTheSilent
Wednesday, August 21st, 2002, 10:16 PM
Battle-Axe people have INTRODUCED indo-european language and culture to other europeans.

Only to certain parts of Northern Europe, not everywhere.

Slavic and Baltic languages are the closest to the original IE language.

Actually, the Baltic language Lithuanian, is the closest to Proto-Indo-European, the Slavic languages much less so.

Heimdall,
Lundman was wrong?!

About certain things, yes, he was.

With what anthropological type YOU do associate Aryan/IE culture/language? With Danubian Nordics??

The original Proto-Indo-Europeans (Kurgan culture bearers), were predominantly "Proto-Europoid," that is, Cro-Magnon in type. Later on, groups such as the Battle-Axe Nordics, who had absorbed the PIE culture from the migrating Kurgan people, helped to spread the IE languages throughout the rest of Europe.

Ross
Wednesday, August 21st, 2002, 10:25 PM
Battle-Axe people have INTRODUCED indo-european language and culture to other europeans.

-- Only to certain parts of Northern Europe, not everywhere.
=====
But it were they, weren't they?


=====
Slavic and Baltic languages are the closest to the original IE language.

-- Actually, the Baltic language Lithuanian, is the closest to Proto-Indo-European, the Slavic languages much less so.
======

Slavic and Baltic languages are closely related, and much more close to each another, than to other languages. There used to be Slavo-Baltic language, and, of course, as Balts were in isolation and Slavs were open to various influences, Baltic is more preserved, than Slavic. So they're in the same league. Other languages are much less so :)

========
Heimdall,
Lundman was wrong?!

About certain things, yes, he was.
=========
In what he was wrong?
=========

With what anthropological type YOU do associate Aryan/IE culture/language? With Danubian Nordics??

-- The original Proto-Indo-Europeans (Kurgan culture bearers), were predominantly "Proto-Europoid," that is, Cro-Magnon in type. Later on, groups such as the Battle-Axe Nordics, who had absorbed the PIE culture from the migrating Kurgan people, helped to spread the IE languages throughout the rest of Europe.
=========

But there were Aistos among them, right?

There were OTHER groups? What groups?

What was the fate of Cro-Magnons of Kurgan type?

regards

BodewinTheSilent
Thursday, August 22nd, 2002, 08:55 PM
But it were they, weren't they?

Them and the Corded Ware people, in Northern Europe, presumably.

In what he was wrong?

That the original Indo-Europeans were predominantly Nordic, for instance.

But there were Aistos among them, right?

The literature I've read, only calls them "Nordoid," with no further specifications. In any case, they were a minority, and only the Cro-Magnon element is regarded as a truly "Kurgan" type.

There were OTHER groups? What groups?

Corded Ware, Linear Ware, possibly the Bell Beaker people, etc.

What was the fate of Cro-Magnons of Kurgan type?

They migrated, interbred with the local populations, declined in numbers, and were generally squeezed out by later nomads of the steppes.

Ross
Thursday, August 22nd, 2002, 09:11 PM
But it were they, weren't they?

Them and the Corded Ware people, in Northern Europe, presumably.
=========
BA and CW are not the same racially? And LW weren't Nordoid?

=========
What was the fate of Cro-Magnons of Kurgan type?

They migrated, interbred with the local populations, declined in numbers, and were generally squeezed out by later nomads of the steppes.
==========
Any remnants?

That's from that super-book on Aryans?

PS. Were bramins blond?

BodewinTheSilent
Friday, August 23rd, 2002, 09:02 PM
BA and CW are not the same racially?

Not exactly, no. The BAs were largely a robust Nordic type, whilst CWs differed from place to place. In NE Europe, CWs were mostly Nordic, but in Central Europe, they were more mixed with Meds, Alpines, Dinarics, etc.

And LW weren't Nordoid?

In NW Germany they were, but were also part Phalian. They were more mixed in CE, like the CW, because their culture covered a wide area, and encompassed many differing groups as it spread out from its original centers of creation.

Any remnants?

Only as individuals, it would seem, not as a population group. Some Northern Europeans approximate the type rather well, see the attached image.

That's from that super-book on Aryans?

My information derives from many sources, but yes, John V. Day's Indo-European Origins is one of them.

PS. Were bramins blond?

Yes, they were. :D

"The tradition of the existence of a group of Brahmans with white complexion and yellow hair survived down to the time of the grammarian Patanjali (about 150 B.C.) who writes in his Mahabhasya (on Panini V. 1. 115): 'Penance, knowledge of the Veda, and birth make a Brahman. He who is without penance and knowledge of the Veda is a Brahman by birth only. White complexion, pure conduct, yellow or red hair, etc. are also characteristics that constitute Brahmanhood.'"

R. P. Chanda, The Indo-Aryan Races: A Study of the Origin of Indo-Aryan People and Institutions, Part I (Rajshahi: Varendra Research Society, 1916), p. 24.

Ross
Saturday, August 24th, 2002, 11:19 PM
And what is his type? (Im not sure)

Hellstar
Sunday, August 25th, 2002, 02:07 AM
exaggerated phallian:erm

GreenHeart
Sunday, August 25th, 2002, 02:49 AM
Looks like he has a pair of socks stuffed in his cheeks :D

Don't see too many people like that around, they were most likely sexually seclected out of the population.

Sorry, but I couldn't resist......