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View Full Version : Differences between large/prominent Europid and non-Europid noses



János Hunyadi
Tuesday, March 28th, 2006, 04:28 AM
What are the main differences between large/prominent "White"/racially Europid noses and non-Europid/Semitic/hooked noses?

This may help. :thumbup

http://images6.theimagehosting.com/NOSE.psd.jpg

The Greek and Roman noses are of Convex shape. The name is misleading though as both of these types may be found all throughout Europe.

The Armenid and Arabid are both hooked and non-Europid. Such noses are generally found amongst Sephardic/Haisidic Jews and Arabs mainly. Such noses are also common amongst various near Eastern peoples like the Turks, Kurds, Armenians, Georgians, Azeri's, and Iranians.

I've always been under the impression that large/convex noses are quite common and can be found all throughout Europe.

Such noses are the most common amongst Dinarids, Norics, Kelto-Nordics, Anglo-Saxon Nordids, and Tavastids. I believe that the highest occurences of such noses can be seen in the mountainous regions of Central and Southeast Europe in a region extending from Central France to the Balkans.

Also, are bulbuous noses generally associated with the Dinarid type? Or are such noses found amongst Kelto-Nords, Anglo-Saxon Nords, and Tavastids as well?

Bulbuous refers to a nose in which the nasal tip extends further then the nasal root.

An Example:

http://i1.tinypic.com/sevz0j.jpg

Liquid Len
Saturday, April 1st, 2006, 04:39 PM
Just some corrections:

Europid doesn't mean European/ of European ancestry. It means the same as Caucasoid. And Armenids, Arabids etc are Europid too (What elso should they be? Negrid?? Black?). If you equate Europid with European you are simply misusing that word.

A hooked nose is simply a convex nose with an angle. It doesn't equate with the typically curved Armenid/"Jewish" nose, and neither with the more refined Arabid nose. The latter two are often convex, but not hooked, i.e. bent without an angle. Afaik an elegantly curved nose without an angle is even typical for the Arabid type. On the other hand, fully European Dinarids do not seldom have an angular convex nose - also known as hook nose.

The Greek nose in that pic doesn't look convex, but straight, which is, I think, correct for the stereotypical Greek nose. What's typical about it is rather that there is no angle betwen the forehead and the nose - the forehead seems to continue into the nose. That's what a so called Greek nose is about!

I've seen non-European looking people (probably from Anatolia) with what is here called a Roman nose. Basically it's just a strongly curved, somewhat big, wavy nose.

Tavastids are a Baltic subtype, and therefore they never have typically a convex nose! To the contrary, Tavastid noses are typically concave, which is the opposite of convex.

János Hunyadi
Monday, April 3rd, 2006, 08:38 PM
Just some corrections:

Europid doesn't mean European/ of European ancestry.


Most posters here associate Europid solely with European ancestry.


It means the same as Caucasoid

No it doesn't, there are loads of Non-European Caucasoids.

Europid= Nords, UP's, Alpines, Baltid's, Dinarics, Meds, Atlantids, Cro-magnoids, etc.

These types are all aboriginal to Europe, so I regard them all as Europid.

Non-Europid Caucasoids= Berberids, Irano-Afghans, Armenids, Arabids, etc.

Those types aren't aboriginal to Europe, so I personally don't regard them as Europid.


And Armenids, Arabids etc are Europid too (What elso should they be? Negrid?? Black?).

They are Causasoid, but they aren't Europid, nor are they commonly seen in any modern day European peoples. I associate these types with North Africa, the Near East, the Middle East, and Iran.


If you equate Europid with European you are simply misusing that word.

This is very debatable.

If you associate North Africans, and Middle-Easterns with Europeans then you're buying into Pan-Aryanism. www.panf.info (http://www.panf.info)


A hooked nose is simply a convex nose with an angle.

Agreed.


Tavastids are a Baltic subtype, and therefore they never have typically a convex nose! To the contrary, Tavastid noses are typically concave, which is the opposite of convex.

I feel that the Tavastid type is loosely defined. The link to the girl's pic in the end of my first post was previously classifed as Tavastid here.

Another pic of that same girl.

http://i2.tinypic.com/sxk7ls.jpg


Two posters here told me that Tavastids are large-bodied East Baltids with prominent noses as opposes to the snub noses found in regular East Baltids.

Aistins (an East-Nordid type that predominante in W Estonia and SW Finland) have also prominent noses. Even some of the women have convex noses.

Kristiina Ojuland (Estonian):

http://shaan.typepad.com/shaanou/images/kristiina3.jpg

Agrippa
Monday, April 3rd, 2006, 09:06 PM
Europid means in most systems just the American Caucasoid, though there are some other definitions online. I prefer to say European Europid and non-European Europids.

Liquid Len
Monday, April 3rd, 2006, 09:34 PM
There the almost philosophical question arises who or what exactly determines the correct meaning of a word. Really, I don't doubt that most posters here associate Europid with aboriginal to Europe. Perhaps even the majority of laymen in forums and elsewhere associate it that way. But is it really just the majority of people that determines what a word means? Or is there a correct meaning that is independent of and safe against common, popular misconceptions?

I would particularly ask the question if those who originally coined the expression don't have more weight in this matter. Because it is an anthropological term, we should look how anthropologists use it. And in fact anthropologists use it as a synonym to Caucasoid. The difference is rather that Caucasoid is the American expression, while Europid is how Europeans call it. However, even Baker, an American afaik, says Europid and includes Armenids and other non-European races. You don't have to regard Arabids etc as aboriginal to Europe in order to call them Europid. You even don't have to like them. They are Europid according to the anthropologists' definition of Europid.

Afaik the division of East Baltics (or Baltids how some call them) into Tavastid and Savolaxid stems from Bertil Lundman.

Here is what he wrote on Tavastids (translation by Exeter):

a) the tavast type, under average Swedish height (approx. 170 cm.) squat, particularly broad- shouldered and heavy with short legs and medium long arms. Short head (BLI approx. 82-83) and high (HLI approx. 76) with flat neck, besides big, broad and rugged (F I approx. 85). Big square somewhat flat face with steep profile, high broad forehead and broad forehead and broad slant and coarse very little prominent chin. One the lower part broad but often pointy upturned nose. The hair grey-yellow but fairly rough and eyes grey pale, lusterless, eye opening narrow, but not oblique. The eyebrows thin and the beard growth weak. Thick, grey-yellowish skin, weakly developed ear lobe. Distribution: W. Finland, W. Estonia and more uncommon westwards Elbe.


Besides, the concave, upturned nose is (like e.g. the prominent cheekbones) a defining characteristic of Baltids and therefore common to all Baltid subtypes. East-Nordids are another matter. And one must not forget that not all NE Euros are purely Baltid in race.

János Hunyadi
Monday, April 3rd, 2006, 09:48 PM
Afaik the division of East Baltics (or Baltids how some call them) into Tavastid and Savolaxid stems from Bertil Lundman.

Here is what he wrote on Tavastids (translation by Exeter):

a) the tavast type, under average Swedish height (approx. 170 cm.) squat, particularly broad- shouldered and heavy with short legs and medium long arms. Short head (BLI approx. 82-83) and high (HLI approx. 76) with flat neck, besides big, broad and rugged (F I approx. 85). Big square somewhat flat face with steep profile, high broad forehead and broad forehead and broad slant and coarse very little prominent chin. One the lower part broad but often pointy upturned nose. The hair grey-yellow but fairly rough and eyes grey pale, lusterless, eye opening narrow, but not oblique. The eyebrows thin and the beard growth weak. Thick, grey-yellowish skin, weakly developed ear lobe. Distribution: W. Finland, W. Estonia and more uncommon westwards Elbe.

Interesting, several posters here classified this friend of mine as Tavastid. If Tavastids have upturned (concave noses) then how would you classify her?

A few others here said she was Baltid/Dinaric. She's 100% Hungarian if that helps.

http://i1.tinypic.com/sevz0j.jpg

http://i2.tinypic.com/sxk7ls.jpg

Her classification thread.

http://forums.skadi.net/showthread.php?t=37108

I have a similar shaped nose (bulbuous), altough it's not as pronouced as hers. A few in my family have similar nose types.

bittercreek
Tuesday, April 4th, 2006, 04:37 AM
The conclusion states that Finland divides into four groups acccording to cephalic index: 1) Northern-Ostrobothnia 2) Carelia, Savolax and Tavast 3) Satakunta and Nyland 4) Finland Proper. According to facial indexes Tavast and Savolax regions are closest to each other. Although the population of Häme also appeared to be close to the populations of Southern-Ostrobothnia and Satakunta.




Lundman's division to Tavastid and Savolaxid is in my view nothing short of un-scientific not to mention what he wrote about the population history of Savolax etc. which is pure fantasy lacking any support from archeological evidence and he didn't use a lot of the thural and more recent material available to him as his sources and he apparently never worked in Finland. Any more good reasons to discredit his work on Finland as "less-sound" ? I don't think that's necessary.



Not any kind of data by Finnish anthropoligists on nasal shape supports his view of a concave-nosed type being typical and dominant in the west or the east. The most common nasal shape is straight all around the country, concave noses are naturally more frequent in women. This is well documented in any of the studies by the Finnish academy of science.

Liquid Len
Tuesday, April 4th, 2006, 09:28 PM
http://i1.tinypic.com/sevz0j.jpg

http://i2.tinypic.com/sxk7ls.jpg


There's a problem: The second pic doesn't show up.

Liquid Len
Tuesday, April 4th, 2006, 09:32 PM
Lundman's division to Tavastid and Savolaxid is in my view nothing short of un-scientific not to mention what he wrote about the population history of Savolax etc. which is pure fantasy lacking any support from archeological evidence and he didn't use a lot of the thural and more recent material available to him as his sources and he apparently never worked in Finland. Any more good reasons to discredit his work on Finland as "less-sound" ? I don't think that's necessary.


Funny, you're sounding like Holger.

Anyway, imo (having read Bunak's data and conclusions) the Savolaxid type is more typical for NW-Russia, the Tavastid type more for Eastern Estonia/Latvia than for Finland.


Not any kind of data by Finnish anthropoligists on nasal shape supports his view of a concave-nosed type being typical and dominant in the west or the east. The most common nasal shape is straight all around the country, concave noses are naturally more frequent in women. This is well documented in any of the studies by the Finnish academy of science.


The West isn't pred. Baltic anyway and I think for all Baltid peoples in general straight noses are also very frequent. Possibly (I'm not sure right now) there is no or only very few ethnic groups that really have more concave noses than straight ones. It's just a fact that the area of the Baltic complex, how Bunak called it, has a comparatively high percentage of concave noses. And since concave noses are more particular and special than the usual straight ones, the Baltic type is idealised as having a concave nose. It's the same with the Arabid type and convex noses; some of the purest Arabic beduine tribes have in fact most frequently straight noses too.

Liquid Len
Wednesday, April 5th, 2006, 02:29 PM
Here some data from Bunak:

Percentage of concave noses / percentage of upturned noses

Vepses 41 / 51
Votes 40
East Karelians 40
Eastern Finns 40 (source was Pesonen 1937)
Estonians 37,2
Latvians 45 / 49,0
Lithuanians / 49,6
N-Belorussians / 37
Valdai zone, Russia 10 / 21

János Hunyadi
Monday, April 10th, 2006, 10:46 PM
While the Greek nose strikes me as being commonly found all throughout Europe, the Roman nose still looks a bit foreign to Europe as it's slightly hooked.

I believe that prominent noses are common amongst Europeans. When comparing prominent European noses with prominent non-European noses it's not really the size that matters it's the shape that matters.

Prominent Europid noses like the Greek one slope downward gently at an even angle.

Prominent non-Europid noses curve downward at a sharp angle. These features aren't always recognizable in a mug shot but they are in profile shots.

Arabid nose

http://dienekes.angeltowns.net/pictures/asiaminor/armenian.jpg

Armenid nose

http://wsi.matriots.com/What%20is%20a%20Jew_files/mayer.jpe

http://wsi.matriots.com/What%20is%20a%20Jew.html

Nicola_Canadian
Friday, July 7th, 2006, 08:13 AM
What is the correct way of measuring the nose angle???