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nicholas
Thursday, March 23rd, 2006, 12:39 PM
Lately I've come to view society as valuing obedience more than intelligence, reason, courage, etc. Commercials, ads, media, etc seem to be pushing a kind of blind conformity fueled by fear and this trend is ever growing and quickly destroying the pioneering spirit of America.

"bow down and obey" seems to be the new mantra of America, though one could claim that it has been for quite some time.

How do you view obedience? What is good obedience? what is bad obedience? Is there anyway of reversing this trend? Why is it that so many toss reason to the wind in favor of blind obedience?

Moody
Thursday, March 23rd, 2006, 02:26 PM
I think the ability to obey is just as important as the ability to give orders.

Indeed, generally speaking, obedience is more important - in terms of numbers. This is because giving orders, by its very nature, is a rarer enterprise than is obedience.

Not only that, I would say that in one's own personal development, one must first learn to obey before one can even think about giving orders.

And few are really equiped to give orders.

That's why obedience should be seen as a virtue.

Of course it matters what you obey.

What then should you obey?

The call of your Blood.

nicholas
Thursday, March 23rd, 2006, 02:41 PM
When the call of ones blood, mind, wisdom, etc shows that the obedience is being done out of fear then it ir right to fight back.

Does obedience have levels? What are kinds of good obedience? What are kinds of bad obedience? Does it all depend on someones perspective or is there a higher kind of obedience? For me the word obedience has an extremely negative connotation in that it is far too often abused as a tool for bullies, tyrants, ignorants, etc.

Jäger
Thursday, March 23rd, 2006, 02:53 PM
Of course it matters what you obey.
I think it matters far more whom you obey.
The first and most important decision is to choose your leader, then stay loyal.

nicholas
Thursday, March 23rd, 2006, 03:00 PM
I think it matters far more whom you obey.
The first and most important decision is to choose your leader, then stay loyal.

I would if I could trust a leader to be loyal to me. I'd rather have brothers than masters.

Moody
Thursday, March 23rd, 2006, 03:55 PM
By having 'obedience to one's blood', I mean that one should obey only those who are of one's blood.

And, importantly; one should only obey those of one's blood who also have this blood as their premier concern.

When one recognises someone of this type who is able to command [this is a rare gift], then one should give them unswerving obedience.

CountBloodSpawn
Thursday, March 23rd, 2006, 08:22 PM
republican-zionists take the concept of obedience, twist it around and make use of it for their own agenda

however obedience in the form of true loyalty is a very important virtue, loyalty to a standard of nobility and virtues and to ones tribe and nation are vital for cultural and spiritual preservation

Jäger
Sunday, March 26th, 2006, 06:58 PM
I would if I could trust a leader to be loyal to me. I'd rather have brothers than masters. What about a brother as your master :)

nicholas
Sunday, March 26th, 2006, 07:04 PM
What about a brother as your master :)

That concept seems to be non-existent in america. Although when in California I did vote for Arnold when he ran for governor.

Leofric
Sunday, March 26th, 2006, 07:34 PM
Lately I've come to view society as valuing obedience more than intelligence, reason, courage, etc.
This is a very interesting topic to me, becuase I have seen a similar trend within a particular religious society that interests me. I had not noticed anything of the kind, however, outside of that very narrow context. I would be very interested in seeing what you're talking about.

Would you mind citing some examples of this in general society? The more numerous and varied your examples are, and the more general they are (something in the New York Times trumps something in the Fargo Spectrum, for example), the more it would help me understand this trend.

Thanks in advance.

nicholas
Sunday, March 26th, 2006, 08:03 PM
This is a very interesting topic to me, becuase I have seen a similar trend within a particular religious society that interests me. I had not noticed anything of the kind, however, outside of that very narrow context. I would be very interested in seeing what you're talking about.

Would you mind citing some examples of this in general society? The more numerous and varied your examples are, and the more general they are (something in the New York Times trumps something in the Fargo Spectrum, for example), the more it would help me understand this trend.

Thanks in advance.

Just look at the american educational system, it was first created to teach immigrannts to be obedient members of society.In essence one cannot be obedient and highly intelligent at the same time. I don't have time to google anything right now as far as sources.

Leofric
Sunday, March 26th, 2006, 08:13 PM
Just look at the american educational system, it was first created to teach immigrannts to be obedient members of society. . . . I don't have time to google anything right now as far as sources.
Oh, I wasn't asking for a bibliography in APA form or anything silly like that. This is exactly the kind of citation I had in mind. Thank you! Do you have any other such examples?

As regards this example, I can definitely see our educational system itself as being part of this trend, but its inception goes back to the early postbellum period. Do you think there are more recent trends within the educational system that are symptoms of the bigger problem? If so, which, specifically? Or, if you think this is not just a recent trend but only the continuation of a trend that spans not just decades but centuries, could you back up a bit and show me where you'd say the trend began and how it has evolved over time?

And I don't expect a speedy answer on this — one of the chief advantages of written communication is that it can go more slowly.

Jäger
Sunday, March 26th, 2006, 08:51 PM
In essence one cannot be obedient and highly intelligent at the same time.
I agree, these people either become enemys or leaders. Nevertheless there is a difference between knowladgable and intelligent, school doesn't bring intelligence, but knowladge.
At least not what I would undertsand under highly intelligent.

Afterall there are differences in intelligence for obidence, the ones who can understand the orders, and the ones who don't :D

Giftschlange
Sunday, March 26th, 2006, 09:15 PM
ideally, obediance would be an outdated concept left to rot in the past, alongside plebian masses, and large society's in general, but of course reality is never so kind that it will form around ideal's. with that in mind, i see obediance as a valuable concept for those lacking the strength to transcend the television, radio, movie theater, and newspaper. ;)

Chlodovech
Sunday, March 26th, 2006, 10:07 PM
Congratulations, nicholas, you got a topic to be seen, here. :fhdclap:

Our large and complex society cries for obedience, we can't do without it - and there's more conformity than originality & democracy (macro democracy, what a hoax!) out there.

Look at what Raven' signature says... There's much sense to it.

I'm not an American, but as an European, living in a country with a monarchy, and a long tradition of obedience at all levels, I have a difficult time seeing a difference between obedience and loyalty - which is the most important value there is, to me. :)

Maybe I'm only the product of mismanagement and/or tradition. Perhaps.


I think obedience is to be found very frequently within everyday life - at home, obedience to the family, at work, obedience to the boss, at school, obedience to the teacher, on this site, obedience to the admin.

It's a challenge of honour, especially when everyone around you is losing faith, and committing... treason. :stop