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Dombvi
Wednesday, March 15th, 2006, 01:38 AM
It is said that Australoid/Austronesian peoples lived in this Area before the arrival of any other people, and now most of them are very few and are known to live in the southern Malay Peninsula and have been completely replaced by mongoloids in most areas. But my question is it known how mixed the Southern Mongoloids are? When i see some of these individuals like tourists or in movies i often notice their semi-negroid features, and Studies have shown that they are genetically distinct from their neighbors to the north. I know that the Micronesian-Polynesian race and other pacific islanders are heavily hybridized with Australoids, but i'm just wondering about the peoples of Indochina.

Oswiu
Wednesday, March 15th, 2006, 02:32 AM
God knows about racially speaking, but linguistically there are a bewildering array of unrelated, or very distantly related, distinct groups here. THe distributions seen in the maps appear to indicate a series of infiltrations into the peninsula, in which earlier inhabitants have been shoved aside.
The Cham still hang on in some parts of Vietnam and Cambodia, and represent the Austronesian family's MalayoPolynesian branch. They seem to be the oldest group on the mainland. They have kin in the Pacific, on Hainan island off southern China, and more distant relation on Taiwan [Formosa].

After them come the AustroAsiatics, dividing into Mon-Khmer [also including the oldest Munda languages of NE India] and Vietnamese.

The Daic [Thai] speakers spread southwards from the areas around Canton in China in historical times, as did TibetoBurman speakers of the SinoTibetan superfamily.

Asianist
Thursday, March 16th, 2006, 04:58 PM
It is said that Australoid/Austronesian peoples lived in this Area before the arrival of any other people, and now most of them are very few and are known to live in the southern Malay Peninsula and have been completely replaced by mongoloids in most areas. But my question is it known how mixed the Southern Mongoloids are? When i see some of these individuals like tourists or in movies i often notice their semi-negroid features, and Studies have shown that they are genetically distinct from their neighbors to the north. I know that the Micronesian-Polynesian race and other pacific islanders are heavily hybridized with Australoids, but i'm just wondering about the peoples of Indochina.

I don't know the southeast Asia issue except Vietnamese. According to the Chinese official history chronicles "Shi-ji" written 2100 years ago, many (even most of) northern Vietnamese paternal ancestors came from northern China----after the Chin State of northwestern China conquered the other six states, the First Emperor of China (Chin-shi-huang-di) sent half million men, most of them the youth of those six conquered states, to the hot/humid south to conquer Canton and north Vietnam. After the mission was complished by 3-year cruel and vehement fighting/killing, the Emperor never allowed those soldiers to go back to their homeland, a measure to secure the Chin's great conquest of whole northern China in fact. Those half million northern men had to marry the local Malay women and generated the nowadays Cantonese and north Vietnamese. The recent genetic research also verified the Chinese history chronicle Shi-ji's record----the northern Vietnamese are genetically close to the northern Asians in many aspects (sampling around Hanoi city), totally different from their neighbors, the peoples of Thai, Cambodia, Lao,...etc.

Agrippa
Thursday, March 16th, 2006, 06:38 PM
Well, there was a constant expansion from the North but a lot of mixture too, so it really depends on the exact region, exact ethnic group and racial type how mixed SEA are, since some look phenotypically rather pure but are still genetically mixed, the Sinoid features were just selected or even small admixture can lead to strong deviations if those traits being selected.

moogas
Thursday, March 16th, 2006, 06:57 PM
Those half million northern men had to marry the local Malay women and generated the nowadays Cantonese and north Vietnamese. The recent genetic research also verified the Chinese history chronicle Shi-ji's record
You are right. It's not just Vietnamese, the Cantonese in China in a recent study published in Nature has been shown to have 60-80% similarity with Northern Han on their paternal side (Y-chromosome), but only 20-30% on the maternal side (mtDNA) within a series of haplotype markers. So the Vietnamese are expected to have similar genetic patterns (that is, paternally a lot of Northern Han admixture; and maternally more local blood). The same goes for Korea too.

Vietnam and what is today Guangdong (Cantonese-speaking area) were originally a single province called Nanyue (Vietnam in Chinese is pronounced Yuenan, just a reverse of the two syllables from the original Nanyue province).

http://www.zanhe.com/nature02878-f1.jpg
Figure 1 Geographic distribution of sampled populations. Shown are the three waves of north-to-south migrations according to historical record. The identifications of populations are given in Supplementary Table 1. Populations 1–14 are northern Hans, and 15–28 are southern Hans. The solid, dashed and dotted arrows refer to the first, second and third waves of migrations, respectively. The first wave involving 0.9 million (approximately one-sixth of the southern population at that time) occurred during the Western Jin Dynasty (AD 265–316); the second migration, more extensive than the first, took place during the Tang Dynasty (AD 618–907); and the third wave, including 5 million immigrants, occurred during the Southern Song Dynasty (AD 1127–1279). Nature, 16 September 2004

Asianist
Friday, March 17th, 2006, 04:11 PM
The first wave involving 0.9 million (approximately one-sixth of the southern population at that time) occurred during the Western Jin Dynasty (AD 265316)

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The 0.9 million people were in fact the elite group of ancient Han Chinese. They moved south to the Yangtze River area from the Yellow River of north China to avoid those horseback-riding barbarians/archers' invasions from the northwest, Mongolia Steppe and Siberia. This fact could explain why the Yangtze River Delta (around Shanghai) became the richest area of China and the area contributed around 80% members of the Academic Sinica, the highest society for science and technology of China. Each year in the National Examination for university (sort of like the SAT in the USA), the average scores of high school graduates there dominate China.

Agrippa
Friday, March 17th, 2006, 04:25 PM
If you would be able to read German I would strongly recommend v. Eickstedts book "Rassendynamik von Ostasien" which describes in detail the subsequent expansions from a racial-physical and racial-theoretical as well as cultural perspectives.

Asianist
Monday, March 20th, 2006, 04:09 PM
If you would be able to read German I would strongly recommend v. Eickstedts book "Rassendynamik von Ostasien" which describes in detail the subsequent expansions from a racial-physical and racial-theoretical as well as cultural perspectives.

I am very sorry not being able to read german...does this book have a English version?

Agrippa
Monday, March 20th, 2006, 04:16 PM
I am very sorry not being able to read german...does this book have a English version?

No, and its quite old already too...but still very interesting to read.

Janus
Tuesday, March 21st, 2006, 07:36 PM
No, and its quite old already too...but still very interesting to read.

I'd be interested to read it,or atleast some parts of it,so have you any source for me?

Agrippa
Wednesday, March 22nd, 2006, 05:10 PM
I'd be interested to read it,or atleast some parts of it,so have you any source for me?

Egon Frhr. von Eickstedt, Rassendynamik von Ostasien, Berlin 1944.

He was not right about everything and corrected some views himself later too, however, its still a great work and worth reading with many true assumptions and explanations.

moogas
Wednesday, March 22nd, 2006, 05:43 PM
The 0.9 million people were in fact the elite group of ancient Han Chinese. They moved south to the Yangtze River area from the Yellow River of north China to avoid those horseback-riding barbarians/archers' invasions from the northwest, Mongolia Steppe and Siberia. This fact could explain why the Yangtze River Delta (around Shanghai) became the richest area of China and the area contributed around 80% members of the Academic Sinica, the highest society for science and technology of China. Each year in the National Examination for university (sort of like the SAT in the USA), the average scores of high school graduates there dominate China.

Yes, this same area (Jiangnan = Lower Yangtze Delta) is also very loyal to the idea of "China." A lot of battles are fought there. For example when the Manchus came, people in Jiangnan fought to the death. The entire Jiangnan city of Jiangyin fought until only 50 people remained, not a single person from the city surrendered to the Qing/Manchu troops. The Taiping Rebellion also climaxed there. Resistance against the Japanese in WWII was also concentrated there, strongest fight at the Battle of Shanghai. You can consider Jiangnan to be the "Han core."