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White Iceland
Saturday, March 11th, 2006, 06:50 AM
I posted this one in the AHF forum about 3 years ago. The only copy I could find has some damaged characters, but perhaps it is worth a look.

---

Is Saturday Black Sunday?

Now I refer to a discussion of the heathen days of the week. Saturday was always a bit of a puzzler. Then I found a German article concerned with the Black Sun: http://home.t-online.de/home/saxmut/bilbo1.htm

This is a long and interesting article, but what attracted my attention was the Wiligut spoken Halgarita number 27:

Sunur saga santur toe
Syntir peri fuir sprueh
Wilugoti haga tharn
Halga fuir santur toe

The article also includes an interpretation by Werner von B��, Grand Master of the Edda Society, and comes to the conclusion that "Der 'Santur' (auch Sand䲬 Hyperion, Vulkan) steht hier f��ie Schwarze Sonne," or, in English, "The 'Santur' stands here for the Black Sun."

B�� renders this name as "! Sanduhr" and I have adapted it to the Icelandic spelling "San��" It is certainly an engaging mantra or "power word."

I submit to you that Saturday is a corruption of "Santur" day. I developed this hypothesis and then went in search of corroborating evidence, the only way to work a hunch.

Here are a couple of citations I found. Tracy Twyman writes:

...the "Black Sun" is also a stage in the alchemical process, and there, it is associated with the planet Saturn, which in traditional occult systems has always been linked with the color black. Furthermore, the mythology of Saturn, or Kronos, says that he was the leader of the rebellious gods known as "Titans" which rebelled against Zeus and were cast into the Underworld, where Saturn became their Dark Lord, paralleling very closely the story of the Black Sun.

http://www.21stcenturyradio.com/celest! ialsea-twyman.htm

---
From the article "Which planet s played an important role in ancient civilizations?"

One person, Steve Ganot, noted that "Saturn was known as the Black Sun, a symbol of death and decay."

http://itss.raytheon.com/cafe/qadir/q2185.html


More probing into the naming of Saturday has turned up more evidence for such speculation.

No less source than Grimm's Deutsche Mythologie suggests that "a rare concurrence of isolated facts seems almost to secure [Saturn] a place in our native antiquities."

Grimm goes on to provide a record from Kaiserchronik or Kaiserbuch showing that the Roman's loaned their gods names Mars, Mercury, Jupiter and Venus to the 3-6 days, no names of German deities immediately appearing. These gods readily correspond with Zio, Wuotan, Donar and Fria, "but how was Saturn to be put into German?"

In the Kaiserchronik/Kaiserbuch it is written that:

An dem sam! eztage s⭭------------Then on the Saturday
einez heizet rotund⭭-------------Is a thing named rotunda
daz was ein h겥z beteh��-------That was a lofty temple,
der got hiez Saturn��------------The god was named Saturnus,
darn⣨ was iz aller tiuvel 겥----Thereafter was it to all devils' honour. Grimm identifies this temple as the Pantheon in Rome, built in honor of all the gods, with Saturn holding the high seat.

A list of names for the seventh day among Europeans proves convincing to Grimm that it was adapted from the Roman 'dies Saturni', but there is something more, perhaps an earlier parallel.

"Here is identity, not only of idea, as in the case of the other gods, but of name, and the absence of consonant-change seems to betray downright borrowing: or may the resemblence have been accidental, and a genuine German name have been modified in imitation of the foreign one?" While there is no readily similar German word from tho! se days, he offers that the Anglo-Saxon s津re, as Old High German s⺡ri, means "one who sits in wait."

Furthermore, "Edward the Confessor supplies us with the [Anglo-Saxon] name of a place S津resbyrig, quite on a par with W��sbyrig."

Many modern writings look back to Grimm's suggestion that a near-forgotten Teutonic god, now often called Seater, was a ready substitute for Saturn. To tie this in with the San�� I consider Grimm's last suggestion on the subject.

"We might even take into consideration a by-name of O��, Sa��r perhaps Sⰲ, though I prefer to take the first form as equivalent to Sannr (true) and Sanngetall."

See Names of Odin http://heathen.info/odennamn.html

Sannr, Sa��Sath........."Truth", "The Truthful"

If the Halgarita contain forgotten wisdom, I suggest that Santur is the "one who sits in wait."

Dr. Solar Wolff
Friday, May 19th, 2006, 07:41 AM
We were told that Saturday was Saturn's Day. We have a moon's day, and a sun's day, but no other planet in our solar system has a day. There is no Jupiter's day, or Mars' day. Maybe we have been looking in the wrong direction for Saturday.

In German it is Samstag. What is the derivation of Samstag? Does it have anything to do with the planet Saturn? What about other Germanic languages--how do they say this day?

Nagelfar
Monday, January 8th, 2007, 10:00 AM
We were told that Saturday was Saturn's Day. We have a moon's day, and a sun's day, but no other planet in our solar system has a day. There is no Jupiter's day, or Mars' day. Maybe we have been looking in the wrong direction for Saturday.

In German it is Samstag. What is the derivation of Samstag? Does it have anything to do with the planet Saturn? What about other Germanic languages--how do they say this day?

An old Norwegian name for Saturday was "Lauderdag", which basically meant 'laundry day'. Most etymologies say that 'Samstag' in German is a corruption of Sabbat day, or day of the sabbath. Though it could be related to some far fetched Germanic deity possibly; cognate to Samr 'the dark one' etc.

The names of all the other days of the week are traditionally Germanic in etymology I think is the major point of contention, not that there is only one for a planet (I think they are in respect to the deities anyhow as the planets themselves are for the Roman deities). All Germanic and one Roman name seems odd. So this 'Santar' origin seems at least intuitive.

Oswiu
Monday, January 8th, 2007, 06:47 PM
We were told that Saturday was Saturn's Day. We have a moon's day, and a sun's day, but no other planet in our solar system has a day. There is no Jupiter's day, or Mars' day.
Look to a Romance language, and you'll see that all the known planets were there.
The Germanic parallels [in Roman eyes?] of the eponymous Classical Deities were used in very early calques from the Latin.

Lundi - Moon
Mardi - Mars = Tiw
Mercredi - Mercury = Woden
Jeudi - Jove - Jupiter = Thunor
Vendredi - Venus = Frig
Samedi - God only knows! But it's obviously the same as in Samstag. Maybe it's a corruption of Sabbath [Saturday is 'Subbota' in Russian] which has overtaken the old form that obviously included Saturn's name.
Dimanche - another odd one! Earlier must have included Sol in some form?

I would love to hear from anyone who can explain these in a bit better detail, or provide the earlier pre-Christian forms in Latin!

The names of all the other days of the week are traditionally Germanic in etymology I think is the major point of contention, not that there is only one for a planet (I think they are in respect to the deities anyhow as the planets themselves are for the Roman deities). All Germanic and one Roman name seems odd. So this 'Santar' origin seems at least intuitive.
I am naturally HIGHLY sceptical here [but I don't normally wander onto this part of the forum].
Isn't it just that the Romans had trouble identifying a clear parallel for Saturn amongst the Germani?

Here's another interesting question - when did a seven day week appear amongst the Romans?!? :chinrub

Nagelfar
Monday, January 8th, 2007, 07:08 PM
I am naturally HIGHLY sceptical here [but I don't normally wander onto this part of the forum].
Isn't it just that the Romans had trouble identifying a clear parallel for Saturn amongst the Germani?

Here's another interesting question - when did a seven day week appear amongst the Romans?!? :chinrub

It is possible that the Germanic names were simply 'lifted' from the Roman ones and given corresponding deities. I don't think it would have been Romans doing it though. Also, it seems if they were post-Christian, it would be odd giving names to commemorate nonchristian objects of faith, with the amount of latin-loan influence via Christianity, you would think the Germanic peoples would simply use the latin named days of the week.

Oswiu
Monday, January 8th, 2007, 07:36 PM
It is possible that the Germanic names were simply 'lifted' from the Roman ones and given corresponding deities. I don't think it would have been Romans doing it though. Also, it seems if they were post-Christian, it would be odd giving names to commemorate nonchristian objects of faith, with the amount of latin-loan influence via Christianity, you would think the Germanic peoples would simply use the latin named days of the week.
It must have happened shortly after the Roman conquest of the Rhineland and the creation of the Provinces Germania Inferior and Superior.

Welsh and Irish took the Latin terms, but didn't 'translate' the Deities to their native versions.
Welsh (Cymraeg) dydd Llun dydd Mawrth dydd Mercher dydd Iau dydd Gwener dydd Sadwrn dydd Sul

Irish Gaelic Dé Luan Dé Mairt Dé Céadaoin Déardaoin Dé h-Aoine Dé Sathairn Dé Domhnaigh

Dr. Wolff asked for the other Germanic languages, so here's a link with many world languages for the days and months;
http://www.domesticat.net/misc/monthsdays.php

Swedish måndag tisdag onsdag torsdag fredag lördag söndag

Scots Monanday Tysday Wadensday Fuirsday Friday Seturday Sunday

Plautdietsch Moondag Dinjsdag Meddweak jDonnadag Friedag Sinnovend Sinndag

Norse, Old Mánadagr Tosdagr Óéinsdagr Flórsdagr Frjádagr Laugardagr Sunnudagr
Norwegian, Bokmål Mandag Tirsdag Onsdag Torsdag Fredag Lørdag Søndag

Luxembourgish Méindeg Dënschdeg Mëttwoch Donneschdeg Freideg Samschdeg Sonndeg

Icelandic mánudagur þriðjudagur miðvikudagur fimmtudagur föstudagur laugardagur sunnudagur

German, Low Maandag Dingsdag Middeweken Dunnersdag Freedag Sünnavend (or) Saterdag Sünndag
German, standard Montag Dienstag Mittwoch Donnerstag Freitag Samstag Sonntag

Frisian, West Moandei Tiisdei Woansdei Tongersdei Freed Sneon Snein

Faroese mánadagur týsdagur mikudagur hósdagur fríggjadagur leygardagur sunnudagur

Danish Mandag Tirsdag Onsdag Torsdag Fredag Lørdag Søndag

Dutch maandag dinsdag woensdag donderdag vrijdag zaterdag zondag

EnglishMondayTuesdayWednesdayThursdayFri daySaturdaySunday
English, Old Mōnandæg Tīwesdæg Wōdnesdæg Þunresdæg Frīgedæg Sæternesdæg Sunnandæg

Afrikaans Maandag Dinsdag Woensdag Donderdag Vrydag Saterdag Sondag

I'd love an explanation for the anomalous ones I've highlighted! :D

AH, here's the original Latin;
Latindiēs lūnaediēs martisdiēs mercurīdiēs iovisdiēs venerisdiēs saturnīdiēs solis

Nagelfar
Monday, January 8th, 2007, 08:31 PM
lördag

Dinjsdag

Laugardagr Lørdag

laugardagur

Dingsdag Dienstag

Lørdag

I'd love an explanation for the anomalous ones I've highlighted! :D


The ones beginning with 'L' all seem to be related to the 'Lauderdag' explaination I gave earlier. 'Diens-' seems to be another variant of Tyr/Ziu, maybe not in etymology but in meaning (lit. service day, duty day). Ding-/Dinjs- seems to be the same as 'Thing'/'Ding', literally 'assembly day'. Sinnovind/Sunnavend means basically sunday I'm guessing (in addition to the "other" sunday, that is, one is like sun-day, the other is like sun-noon, both denoting a period of time like 'a day'; this contributes to that theory that 'Satur-' could have been a name for a Germanic sun god being that there are other instances of the other day also being given to the sun).

I don't know about the ones beginning with an "F" and have no idea about the Frisian ones either.

Oswiu
Monday, January 8th, 2007, 08:53 PM
Sinnovind/Sunnavend means basically sunday I'm guessing (in addition to the "other" sunday, that is, one is like sun-day, the other is like sun-noon, both denoting a period of time like 'a day'; this contributes to that theory that 'Satur-' could have been a name for a Germanic sun god being that there are other instances of the other day also being given to the sun).

Silly me - it's Sunday-Eve! I.e. the night before Sunday! ~ Christmas Eve!
An even better comparison would be HallowE'EN! :doh

SO please stop this nonsense about a made up Satur God when the link with Saturn is SO BLINDINGLY obvious to anyone.

Nagelfar
Monday, January 8th, 2007, 09:01 PM
SO please stop this nonsense about a made up Satur God when the link with Saturn is SO BLINDINGLY obvious to anyone.

That's the whole point. When a name matches in proximity, the chances of a culture replacing it are less and adopting it unchanged are more.

Though for forum reasons, I believe reading into things more is always better even if you're wrong for the sake of exchange of ideas, such is the mode of informational conveyance on webforums. I wasn't thinking to connect it to the German -abend as eve/evening either, so my supposed meaning was a bit skewed, but at least I made the attempt.

Oswiu
Monday, January 8th, 2007, 09:06 PM
That's the whole point. When a name matches in proximity, the chances of a culture replacing it are less and adopting it unchanged are more.
:(
Saturni dies > Saturday.

There is no record of a Germanic God with such a name. Nor could there even have been. THe name doesn't even LOOK Germanic.

I don't want to get all argumentative about this, but making up Gods' names is hardly the sort of thing those with a respect for Germanic ancestors should be getting up to. THis is the sort of thing charlatans do to sell 'Wicca' books to 13 year old girls.

Nagelfar
Monday, January 8th, 2007, 09:13 PM
Saðr is indeed an attested gods name. Forsite was called 'seater' as well.

Oswiu
Monday, January 8th, 2007, 09:20 PM
Saðr is indeed an attested gods name. Forsite was called 'seater' as well.
It goes against all the tendencies of English historical linguistics for an ETH to become a T.
I've never even heard of Saddr so why would such an obscure figure get a day named after them.
Occam's Razor, Naglfar!

Nagelfar
Monday, January 8th, 2007, 09:31 PM
The 'black sun' followers would say that it is because it was a secretive, mysteriously hushed cultic deity. Again, I'm not arguing that the name had it's linguistic origins from such a deity, I'm saying it was taken unchanged from the Roman but could relay a different idea due to the closeness. Saðr is Old Norse anyway, so it is sensible a German version would be a 't'. Though, the more likely candidate is Forsite, who was actually a much more popular deity than is widely recognized today, and could have been more common by another name.

Carl
Monday, January 8th, 2007, 10:37 PM
Its simple! Saturn rules Satur-day and the Colour of Saturn is Black ; the entire history of Western Occultism confirms this! It is thought of as both grim and heavy ( the corresponding metal is of course Lead )...which traditionally links it to profound teaching, fundamental truths of life and death, and - by association - the black arts. This you will discover from mediaeval texts. Agrippa is as good a place to start as anywhere!:D Put it all together - and if a Black Sun does shine at all , it shines on Saturday. But beware!:(

White Iceland
Tuesday, January 9th, 2007, 07:49 AM
:(
Saturni dies > Saturday.

There is no record of a Germanic God with such a name. Nor could there even have been. THe name doesn't even LOOK Germanic.

I don't want to get all argumentative about this, but making up Gods' names is hardly the sort of thing those with a respect for Germanic ancestors should be getting up to.

Well, certainly Himmler surrounded himself with some very eccentric pseudo-historians and is accused in modern texts of trying to outright bend history to support German territorial claims &c.

I seem to recall that my aim when originally composing this was to fish for sound comparisons to ANYTHING remotely like Wiligut's Santur.

I wasn't making things up here so much as sensationalising a few loose ends. I am sorry that the non-English characters are missing from the only copy I have. I was quite proud that I found the Grimm citations which left an open end for speculation. There is nothing wrong with speculation. I don't think there is anything wrong with making up gods either, for that matter. I am sure that Forseti, which is also the Icelandic title for president, is simply a generic title for "one who is seated to the fore" or leader. Isn't Forseti to be the chief god after Ragnarök? In that sense, he might even inherit some of the many by-names of Oðinn, some of which sound a bit like Santur and Saturn.

Have you ever heard of the SATOR square and the fact that they occur across Scandinavia practically as early as anywhere. There is also the Satyr, which is something of a devil, a faun or something like a woodspirit or the god pan if I recall.

So, what Grimm was saying in the QUOTES I borrowed into a Black Sun context was that there may have been local associations with the name "Day of Saturn" which made it unnecessary to replace with, for instance Forsetadagur.

After all this, I admit that I am working to adapt or borrow from older sources in order to "make up" Black Sun concepts which people can use for inspiration. I don't think the old gods or our ancestors are offended by science.

I am sure there are plenty of academic types "getting up to" important things like memorializing our ancestors and fine-tuning lexicons to gather dust on more shelves in schools my grandchildren will never attend.

I would rather make something up if that's what it takes to turn our folk around on their heels. There is a sound archetype behind the Black Sun. I and a few others are simply trying to define it and add flesh to that skeleton. It is not perhaps a TRUE mythology, but it holds an appeal with certain of us and does not demand that we reject far-fetched notions outright when they may conjure positive images in our consciousness.

You are absolutely right to not argue... what sense does it make to argue over someone else's concept of gods, what was or what may have been? Especially when they admit that perhaps the chief reason for bringing it up in the first place was to excersize the imagination? I think it is doing that here... belatedly.

But mostly I wanted to clear up the fact that there ARE older sources than the 20th century which make a comparison between Wiligut's Santur and Saturn an interesting and worthwhile excersize... and not just inventing gods.

Oswiu
Tuesday, January 9th, 2007, 10:34 PM
Though, the more likely candidate is Forsite, who was actually a much more popular deity than is widely recognized today, and could have been more common by another name.
What's the authority to say that Forseti was more popular than usually thought?

I seem to recall that my aim when originally composing this was to fish for sound comparisons to ANYTHING remotely like Wiligut's Santur.

I wasn't making things up here so much as sensationalising a few loose ends. I am sorry that the non-English characters are missing from the only copy I have. I was quite proud that I found the Grimm citations which left an open end for speculation.
Okay! :)
Grimm is indeed an Authority.


Have you ever heard of the SATOR square and the fact that they occur across Scandinavia practically as early as an ywhere.
No I hadn't but I have now!
They found one in MY CITY! :-O
http://museum.man.ac.uk/collections/archaeology/romanempire.htm
A scrap of Roman amphora excavated in Manchester in 1978 in a building that went out of use in c.185AD, inscribed with a word-square which is probably the earliest evidence for Christianity in Britain.


http://museum.man.ac.uk/images/word.jpg

http://museum.man.ac.uk/furniture/tiny.gifWikipedia says the earliest one's found at Herculaneum. It's obviously from the Mediterranean world, so what does this have to do with Northern Gods? :shrug
Not only is it Latin, it's also Christian;
Anagrams

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/c/cb/Sator_Anagram.jpg/180px-Sator_Anagram.jpg (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Sator_Anagram.jpg) http://en.wikipedia.org/skins-1.5/common/images/magnify-clip.png (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Sator_Anagram.jpg)
Anagram formed by the letters of the sator square


It is possible to write a horizontal and a vertical 'Pater Noster (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lord%27s_Prayer)' with the letters of the sator square, forming a Greek cross (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_cross). The two As and two Os which remain are then taken as Alpha (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alpha_%28letter%29) and Omega (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Omega) (see above).
Other anagrams include Satan, ter oro te, reparato opes! (Satan, I bid you thrice: Return my fortune back to me!) and ' Petro et reo patet rosa sarona (the saronic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saronic) rose (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rose) is open (or obvious) to [Saint] Peter (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saint_Peter) and the guilty one.)
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/e/e7/Sator_square_oro_te.jpg/180px-Sator_square_oro_te.jpg (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Sator_square_oro_te.jpg) http://en.wikipedia.org/skins-1.5/common/images/magnify-clip.png (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Sator_square_oro_te.jpg)
Oro te, pater


There are also several other possible combinations of the letters in a square form. One of them is as follows. If we take the letter o as the basis and then move on the grid as one would move the knight in a game of chess, we get twice the Latin words Oro te, pater (I beg you, father). The unused letters are s, a, n, a, s, which form the word sanas (you heal).
***

There is also the Satyr, which is something of a devil, a faun or something like a woodspirit or the god pan if I recall.
Again an eastern Mediterranean thing. Nothing to do with our northern ancestors.

I would rather make something up if that's what it takes to turn our folk around on their heels. There is a sound archetype behind the Black Sun. I and a few others are simply trying to define it and add flesh to that skeleton. It is not perhaps a TRUE mythology, but it holds an appeal with certain of us and does not demand that we reject far-fetched notions outright when they may conjure positive images in our consciousness.
I half-sympathise, but to me it just seems you're leaving yourselves far too open to ridicule.

But mostly I wanted to clear up the fact that there ARE older sources than the 20th century which make a comparison between Wiligut's Santur and Saturn an interesting and worthwhile excersize... and not just inventing gods.
:thumbup
So let's have a look at the sources;

the Wiligut spoken Halgarita number 27:

Sunur saga santur toe

Syntir peri fuir sprueh

Wilugoti haga tharn

Halga fuir santur toe
I'm sure that I needn't bother outlining my position on this.

No less source than Grimm's Deutsche Mythologie suggests that "a rare
concurrence of isolated facts seems almost to secure [Saturn] a place in our
native antiquities."
Grimm goes on to provide a record from Kaiserchronik or Kaiserbuch showing
that the Roman's loaned their gods names Mars, Mercury, Jupiter and Venus to
the 3-6 days, no names of German deities immediately appearing. These gods
readily correspond with Zio, Wuotan, Donar and Fria, "but how was Saturn to
be put into German?"
In the Kaiserchronik/Kaiserbuch it is written that:
An dem sam! eztage s⭭------------Then on the Saturday
einez heizet rotund⭭-------------Is a thing named rotunda
daz was ein h겥z beteh��-------That was a lofty temple,
der got hiez Saturn��------------The god was named Saturnus,
darn⣨ was iz aller tiuvel 겥----Thereafter was it to all devils' honour.
Grimm identifies this temple as the Pantheon in Rome, built in honor of all
the gods, with Saturn holding the high seat.
A list of names for the seventh day among Europeans proves convincing to
Grimm that it was adapted from the Roman 'dies Saturni', .
Nothing new so far. Saturday IS a bit of an anomaly.

but there is
something more, perhaps an earlier parallel "Here is identity, not only of idea, as in the case of the other gods, but
of name, and the absence of consonant-change seems to betray downright
borrowing: or may the resemblence have been accidental, and a genuine German
name have been modified in imitation of the foreign one?"
So now he's musing over maybes...
I interpret this as a playful sort of daydreaming.

While there is no readily similar German word from those days, he offers
that the Anglo-Saxon s津re, as Old High German s⺡ri, means "one who sits
in wait."
I WISH we could see the LETTERS here! :P THEN I could comment! It seems like etymological grasping at straws though.

Furthermore, "Edward the Confessor supplies us with the [Anglo-Saxon] name
of a place S津resbyrig, quite on a par with W��sbyrig."
Irrelevant. Aagain, if I could read it, I'd look it up in my book of placenames. Being prefixed to -bury is no guarantee of Godhood!

Many modern writings look back to Grimm's suggestion that a near-forgotten
Teutonic god, now often called Seater, was a ready substitute for Saturn.
To tie this in with the San�� I consider Grimm's last suggestion on the
subject.
"We might even take into consideration a by-name of O��, Sa��r perhaps
Sⰲ, though I prefer to take the first form as equivalent to Sannr (true)
and Sanngetall."
He almost retracts it fully then.

See Names of Odin http://heathen.info/odennamn.html (http://heathen.info/odennamn.html)

Sannr, Sa��Sath........."Truth", "The Truthful"
Our 'sooth'?

If the Halgarita contain forgotten wisdom, I suggest that Santur is the "one
who sits in wait."
BIG if!

White Iceland
Wednesday, January 10th, 2007, 07:43 AM
I agree that to argue the validity of such pondering would indeed leave us open to ridicule. One only has to look at the number of silly claims made by varying factions of any religion to realize that this is a dangerous path.

I appreciate your researches on the Sator square. This is the most clear interpretation I had ever seen on the subject. I see that its origins are clearly not northern or heathen now. I'll see what I can do to find the Kaiserkronik segment with intact characters/terms for consideration.

I would like to see what Flowers says about the term Santur and also the entire essay by Werner von Bülow cited.

Here is a link which gives a poor English translation of the German interpretation of the Santur verse in question
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karl_Maria_Wiligut#Occult_writings
and here is the German article which also renders the term as Sanduhr or Sandär http://www.artfond.de/schwarzesonne.htm

I found a fairly interesting discussion on the names for days of the week at http://www.yourdictionary.com/cgi-bin/agora/agora.cgi?board=etymology;action=print;n um=1066041914
with particular interest in these segments:


Just curious, but I have long noted that 'Saturday' is not truly of Germanic or Norse origin. When did 'Saturday' first appear and what did it replace and why?
Some books list Sataere as a Germanic god of agriculture and suggest that the name is another name for Loki. Guerbers' Myths of the Norsemen is one of these books, stating:
Loki was confounded with Saturn, who had also been shorn of his divine attributes, and both were considered the prototypes of Satan. The last day of the week, which was held sacred to Loki, was known in the Norse as Laugardag, or wash-day, but in English it was changed to Saturday, and was said to owe its name not to Saturn but to Sataere, the thief in ambush, and the Teutonic god of agriculture, who is supposed to be merely another personification of Loki. Of course, Guerber does not provide us with a source. If we look at the Norse sources there are no references to Sataere or Saturn. Jan De Vries lists the Old English word Sataere as being derived from the word Saturn, thus not a separate deity, and it seems that Njord not Loki is the Norse god that more closely resembles Saturn. Could an association between Njord and Saturn be the cause of Scandinavians using Laugurdag -- bath or wash day -- in place of Saturday?
Grimm in his Teutonic Mythology reasons that Saturn was originally a Germanic deity and this is probably Guerber's source. Prof. E.G. Stanley in The Search for Anglo-Saxon Paganism states that Saturn is erroneously included among the gods of the Anglo-Saxons by some scholars (Grimm included) because of his appearence in an early Old English poem Solomon and Saturn. Moreover, Stanley relates the opinion of other scholars that the Saturn appearing in the poem represents the Chaldean god Saturn and not some Germanic deity.
Saturday = Washing day. The word itself is not Norse but the meaning is. The original version is Laugerdag or (as it is today) Lørdag, which means washing day (Lauger = Lavar, and Satur- as in "saturation").


Aha! I knew I had seen the Grimm segment online... here it is
http://www.northvegr.org/lore/grimmst/012_04.php
about halfway down to paragraph beginning, "Once again we must turn our attention to a name..."
The garbled terms included:


AS. sætere means insidiator (OHG. sâzari, conf. sâza, MHG. sâze insidiae, a sitting in wait, as lâga, lâga is lying in wait)

and

the name of a place Sæteresbyrig, quite on a par with Wôdnesbyrig

All considered, taking Saturday at face value it does seem to be Saturn's Day... but then again this wishful thinking has turned up a few interesting comparisons and helped shape my personal poetic consideration of the Black Sun. Two individuals (another from Heathen Front in reaction to the initial posting) suggested that this brought to mind Forseti... something which hadn't occurred to me... and if he was neglected or obscure in the past, just maybe he will find a more noteworthy place in the studies of Schwarze Sonne enthusiasts. Not a bad result.

Nagelfar
Wednesday, January 10th, 2007, 04:03 PM
What's the authority to say that Forseti was more popular than usually thought?

Alcuin, and examples from Frisian lore. Actually place him highest or mention him exclusively among the gods. Some sources say, though called the 'son of', is actually an early name for Baldur, and might represent the only traces of a cult of Baldur anywhere.


…Fosite seems to have been the chief god of the Frisians, and we do have tales about him and his cult from that area. According to the legend "Van da tweer Koningen Karl ende Radbod" (of the two kings Charles [Martel] and Radbod), when the Frankish Charles conquered Frisia, he tried to get the Frisians to reveal their laws to him so that he could judge them. The twelve Foerspreken (fore-speakers) from the Frisian lands stall him twice, but then must admit that they cannot. They are set out to sea in a rudderless ship. Thereupon a thirteenth man appears in the stern, carrying a golden axe (a later, and rather weak, attempt to christianize the tale has been made at this point), with which he steers the ship to land. He then takes the axe from his shoulder and throws it to the earth. It casts up a piece of turf and an underground spring bursts forth. The twelve Foerspreken sit around the spring and learn the law from him. Schwartz reads the historical motivation as being a later interpolation, thinking it more likely that the Foerspreken are gods (corresponding to the traditional twelve Ases of Norse mythology) and that the legend was already old before the Frankish invasion of Frisia.

The association of this myth with Fosite is based on an event in the Vita s. Willibrordi. Willibrord is driven ashore on the island between Frisia and Denmark which is called "Fositeland". Everything there was hallowed to Fosite: the folk did not dare to touch the animals or disturb anything, and water could only be drawn from the holy spring in silence. The location, the special worship given to Fosite by the Frisians, and the description of an island with a hallowed spring all fit closely with the above legend. His spring itself may have been a place of capital punishment, as the "Life of Wulfram" states that condemned men were sometimes drowned in fresh or salt waters.

From another source;


…They gave their name to Jutland, which actually lies near the South-Fyn Islands. Homer mentions Pylene in the Aetolian cities, which corresponds to today's Plön, in Northern Germany, not far from Jutland. Opposite this region, in the North Sea, the name of Heligoland, one of the North Frisian Islands, recalls Helike, a sanctuary of the god Poseidon mentioned in the Iliad (it is remarkable that an old name for Heligoland was Fositesland, where «Fosite», an ancient Frisian god, is virtually identical to Poseidon).

White Iceland
Saturday, January 13th, 2007, 08:34 AM
I may have always read some personal interest into the meaning or superstitions of Saturday. I was born on a Saturday and was told that fylgja (literally 'follower' and often described as an animal 'fetch' 'shadow' or 'familiar spirit') was particularly strong with people born on this day.

My wife's grandfather has always had a strong fylgja. On regular occassions several minutes before he would arrive at a place, folks waiting on him would hear the door open or footsteps on the walk... so in his case at least the 'follower' might actually go ahead of someone. I just put his birthdate into a day of the week calculator and it comes as no surprise that it was a Saturday.

Here is the site I used to find what day of the week a specific date fell on: http://scphillips.com/cgi-bin/day.cgi

For more on fylgja you can read Hilda R.E. Davidson's Road to Hel...

Also of interest is this citation I found in a web journal after a quick search. Interesting blog, by the way:

http://ensiokataja.blogspot.com/search/label/Ásatrú



Dag Strömbäck further states that útiseta was “the habit of the wise and farseeing man to sit outdoors in order to gain spatial information about hidden things”. Útiseta was also “always carried out without assistants”. In Northern Magic, as well as in The Nine Doors of Midgard, the Rune-Gild's Yrmin-Drighten Edred Thorsson, gives practical instructions for outdoor sitting that are based on the traditional knowledge. Thorsson explains that útiseta “is a kind of shamanic vision quest working” and “can be undertaken for a variety of magical purposes”. However, his example deals with its use as a way to get in touch with your personal fetch (fylgja) animal. It is notable that Thorsson says the ideal places for this ritual working to be “on grave mounds or lonely mountains, or at a crossroads of some kind”. The outdoor sitting is conducted in some wild area, far from human habitations, “in a place where you are unlikely to be disturbed for a long period of time”. Those advanced Runers interested to perform this rite, can look up the details in these works.

From my current perspective (stemming from my Work on the Germanic dichotomy of the holy (http://ensiokataja.blogspot.com/2006/06/magic-of-holy_13.html)), Útiseta is an example how the sacred becomes operative in connection with with boundary-crossing situations taking place inside and outside the human body and the inhabited territory. The successful útiseta working, undertaken in a separate sacred space, responds by producing *hailagaz, spiritual wholeness and healthiness: according to Thorsson, the practitioner will learn the identity of his fetch animal and become “deeply bound to the fetch animal and its natural species”. *Hailagaz is received as the contact with the fetch results with making practitioner filled with numinous power. This is not something that needs to be speculated over much here, as any advanced Runer can concretely experience these powers by doing the rite at an appropriate time. But I wouldn't recommend it for a beginner, though, as the fetch is not an omnibenevolent being...

Nagelfar
Saturday, January 13th, 2007, 09:30 AM
I too was born on a Saturday. Though I never let that figure in to my thoughts on feeling that it being named after a Roman god just didn't figure from a Germanic perspective.

Though, on topic, is there any traditional reason that the French Republican Calendar had ten days of the week rather than seven?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_Republican_Calendar

Oswiu
Saturday, January 13th, 2007, 02:15 PM
I appreciate your researches on the Sator square. This is the most clear interpretation I had ever seen on the subject.
:thumbup

I'll see what I can do to find the Kaiserkronik segment with intact characters/terms for consideration.
As I understood the extract, it says nothing about Germanic parallels with Saturn, but rather how the ROman Saturn was viewed by Germans.

All considered, taking Saturday at face value it does seem to be Saturn's Day... but then again this wishful thinking has turned up a few interesting comparisons and helped shape my personal poetic consideration of the Black Sun.
Okay, I'll give you that. :)

All the texts I've read on the supposition so far seem merely to be repeating Grimm [perhaps third or even fourth hand - with each step exaggerating his support], and desperately searching around for anything to confirm this initial fancy.

Alcuin, and examples from Frisian lore.
Alcuin's a countryman of mine, and thus worthy of note :D - but what exactly did he say? Ethnographically the Angles of his Northumbrian homeland were very close to the Frisians, after all, perhaps more so than any other Germanic folk.

So this God was especially venerated locally among the Frisians [or maybe just on Heligoland? Frisia was far larger than that at the time]. Could it be that they deemed Fosite their particular tribal ancestor/patron, and this was misunderstood by outsiders as something more? Could it be that their name Frisii was thought [even if only by folk-etymology] to be connected with the Theonym?

We have no connection to Saturn here, though. And it's interesting that the Frisians call his day 'Sneon', and don't even invoke the Roman God of that day, never mind their own.

Though, on topic, is there any traditional reason that the French Republican Calendar had ten days of the week rather than seven?
Just another sign of their wicked irreverence for millenia of culture. :shrug