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Awar
Friday, October 10th, 2003, 05:44 PM
Here are some pics of Montenegrians ( and kin ) I found on the net, searching by typical montenegrian surnames.

Awar
Friday, October 10th, 2003, 05:48 PM
some more:

Glenlivet
Saturday, October 11th, 2003, 06:38 PM
From upper left, Pontid, Dinarid, 3 reminds me of a Serb politician that I forgot the name of, whom ruled during the time of Milosevic. Number 4, the woman on the upper right corner look almost Karpathid with Turanid. 5 is predominantly East-Baltid. 6 is Dinarid. 7 is almost Armenoid, and he is surprisingly dark for an European.

I would like to know what Providenje and Frans think.



Here are some pics of Montenegrians ( and kin ) I found on the net, searching by typical montenegrian surnames.

Glenlivet
Saturday, October 11th, 2003, 06:40 PM
The man on the right is very dark! Who is he? Some non-Arab Middle Easternerns look the same. I guess that he is predominantly Pontid.



some more:

Prodigal Son
Saturday, October 11th, 2003, 06:46 PM
The man on the right is very dark! Who is he? Some non-Arab Middle Easternerns look the same. I guess that he is predominantly Pontid.

No, can't be. Pontids are relatively light pigmented (many shhave pigmentation simmilar to yours, in fact)

Glenlivet
Saturday, October 11th, 2003, 06:53 PM
That is interesting. I knew that e.g. a Bulgarian and Russian Pontid is not the same. Do you use Pontid, meaning those in Southern Russia (perhaps elsewhere too) as being partially East-Nordid? I saw some Russian online writing in another forum that they have similar looks to the Keltic Nordids (North-Atlantid) found in mainly the Celtic parts of Britain and Ireland.

Do you mean fair, ruddy skin, light-mixed eyes and medium brown hair. Reddish hair, in Russia?

By the way, do you think that the golden series of ashen is more common in Russia. Lundman wrote that Central Russians have as light hairs as Eastern Swedes, but with darker hair.



No, can't be. Pontids are relatively light pigmented (many shhave pigmentation simmilar to yours, in fact)

Prodigal Son
Saturday, October 11th, 2003, 07:28 PM
Do you use Pontid, meaning those in Southern Russia (perhaps elsewhere too) as being partially East-Nordid?

Yes, that's what I meant. Sorry for the confusion. Bunak distinguishes between the Southern Pontic race (Bulgaria, Trukey, etc...) and doliochroscopic Northern Pontid race, which is partially to significantly depigmented, and thus can be seen as a Nordid variant. In fact, many Russian and Western anthropologists (including G. F. Debetz and C. S. Coon) repeatedly mentioned simmilarities between Southern Russians and Scandinavians.


I saw some Russian online writing in another forum that they have similar looks to the Keltic Nordids (North-Atlantid) found in mainly the Celtic parts of Britain and Ireland.

The ones from the Tambov area are, with 20% light hairs and and 37% pure light eyes. The ones from the Ryazan area (30% light hairs, 50% pure light eyes) deviate in a more Nordid direction.


Do you mean fair, ruddy skin, light-mixed eyes and medium brown hair.

Yes.


Reddish hair, in Russia?

Perhaps somewhat reddish, yes. I think this guy is a good example of a Nordid Russian (his hair seems to have a reddish tint to me):
http://www.big-group.ru/eg_big/tema_m/4/karpov.gif



By the way, do you think that the golden series or ashen is more common in Russia.

Full or partial rufosity is quite rare, ranging from 0 to 4%. I'd say that ashen hairs are definitely more common. Of course, rufosity is not equally distributed - the Kostroma region, for example, has 80+% light hairs, all of which are of the ashen variety, whereas the Ryazan area, with 30% light hairs has more golden-blonde shades (I can't recall how many off the top of my head).


Lundman wrote that Central Russians have as light hairs as Eastern Swedes, but with darker hair.

I wouldn't be surprised. Unfortunately, I don't have any of Lundamn's works, so I can't corroborate those figures.

Awar
Saturday, October 11th, 2003, 08:37 PM
So, the general agreement was that I'm pontid too, but what pontid?

rusalka
Saturday, October 11th, 2003, 09:03 PM
So, the general agreement was that I'm pontid too, but what pontid?Yes, I saw another thread discussing the Pontid elements and I was interested too. I actually sent volksdeutsche a private message, because it was his post and the thread was really old, but he hasn't cleared his inbox! so he can't receive it :)

I'm interested in the whole "Pontid" classification myself, since my sub-race was classified as Pontid and/or Sub-Nordic by the majority here. Can someone elaborate the "Pontid" element a bit more? Maybe in more "laymen's" terms too. (meaning please try to avoid the math for me since I'm a dumb art student :dork )

Prodigal Son
Saturday, October 11th, 2003, 09:39 PM
Yes, I saw another thread discussing the Pontid elements and I was interested too. I actually sent volksdeutsche a private message, because it was his post and the thread was really old, but he hasn't cleared his inbox! so he can't receive it :)

I'm interested in the whole "Pontid" classification myself, since my sub-race was classified as Pontid and/or Sub-Nordic by the majority here. Can someone elaborate the "Pontid" element a bit more? Maybe in more "laymen's" terms too. (meaning please try to avoid the math for me since I'm a dumb art student :dork )


Pontic = Eastern Mediterranean sub-race, inhabiting Bulgaria, parts of Greece, Turkey and the Caucasus. The term was first coined by V.V. Bunak. The most typical representatives of the Pontic race are Bulgarians. Northern Pontic = depigmented Pontic variant (essentially Nordic), common in Russia and Poland and predominant in Southeastern Russia.

rusalka
Saturday, October 11th, 2003, 10:13 PM
Pontic = Eastern Mediterranean sub-race, inhabiting Bulgaria, parts of Greece, Turkey and the Caucasus. The term was first coined by V.V. Bunak. The most typical representatives of the Pontic race are Bulgarians. Northern Pontic = depigmented Pontic variant (essentially Nordic), common in Russia and Poland and predominant in Southeastern Russia.
Then, does that mean I would be included in the Northern Pontic classification? Since my father's side of the family is from SE Russia. More specifically the North West Caucasus. Are there any Nordic elements in the Pontids? I remember volksdeutsche referring to something like that in another post of his..

Prodigal Son
Saturday, October 11th, 2003, 10:15 PM
Then, does that mean I would be included in the Northern Pontic classification? Since my father's side of the family is from SE Russia. More specifically the North West Caucasus. Are there any Nordic elements in the Pontids? I remember volksdeutsche referring to something like that in another post of his..

Well, you're not as depigmented as most Northern Pontics, but you wouldn't stand out in the Tambov area, so yes, I would classify you as Northern Pontic. Your combination of dark hair, light-mixed eyes and a somewhat concave nasal profile is quite typical of the Penza-Tambov area.

rusalka
Saturday, October 11th, 2003, 10:23 PM
Well, you're not as depigmented as most Northern Pontics, but you wouldn't stand out in the Tambov area, so yes, I would classify you as Northern Pontic.
Okay, thanks so much Eendracht Maakt Mag :) I was really confused about the whole Pontid thing. The only thing I knew for sure was that Pontus is the Black Sea. Well, my father's family is more or less from the Krasnoday Kray and a little north to that, so I suppose the geography is fitting too. I just looked up Tambov, they're not so off.

Thanks for clearing that up, again.

Vojvoda
Sunday, October 12th, 2003, 03:01 AM
The man on the right is very dark! Who is he? Some non-Arab Middle Easternerns look the same. I guess that he is predominantly Pontid.

He looks more Atlanto-Med, typical For the Adriatic/Western Balkans and Greece. Others have UP elements, such as Radovan Karadzic.

The first man that volksdeutsche classified as Pontid looks more Danubian, very typical for Central Balkans. This is vastly overlooked:

http://www.legioneuropa.org/Racediv/CSCoon/Papers/p28.htm

Glenlivet
Sunday, October 12th, 2003, 06:58 PM
Perhaps I have confused the Balkano-Caspian type for Pontid. The type have a narrow face, doliocephalic skull, strong pigmentation, gracile body with "bony" features and thick growth of hair. I do not know if it is the same as the Iranian plateau race.

I am not so well read about the anthropology of Russia. I plan to read more though. It does not make it better that Swedish and German physical anthropologists were not so fond of Slavs. Lundman got a map where he simply labelled part of Central/Eastern Europe (excluding Austria) as mixed, which does not help me much. Nordenstreng wrote that Eastern Europe had a racial mixture which never found peace, and that it has not yet stabilised. He also said that Russians are not exactly among the high standing people of Europe. He went on by saying that Slovenians, Croatians and Bosnians are more assimilable to the ideals of West. Then he continue by claiming that the Serbs are the lowest and most violent people of the Balkans.

So this is an example of what happens when anthropology is affected by personal preferences, ideas of superiority and politics.

I have decided to see what Russian physical anthropologists think about the racial condition of Russia.

Nordid is a convention, like all other Europid types. It is always easier to define
the present racial condition of various European lands than to find out the origin.
I have read few physical anthropologists whom are not full of question marks on
every page. Lundman must have the record. Sometimes you get the feeling as if he is talking to himself. However, this cannot stop us to research. All sciences have to deal with the same issue. The reality is there, we seek it, and scientist create theories and models, which are simplified and popularied (also for political reasons in physical anthropology).

So what I really want to say with the background above is that I am confused about the origin of Russian Nordids. I have for sure seen Russians whom one can definitely classify as Nordid. Maybe Nordid was developed in Inner Scandinavia, and then spread through the nomadic nature of the Germanic tribes in Southern Sweden. The question is if Nordid is native of the north.

Races are probably developed locally, through isolation and inbreeding in a selected population (note the Hardy-Weinberg law which study the allele frequencies within a population), evolution and specialisation. The interplay between genes and environment is dynamic and not established as a simple cause-and-effect process. Studies on twins help us to discover the reality. Nurture can have determining effect on the the outcome of nature when it comes to psychological diseases. So the environment can play a role in the expression of the genes.

Many Scandinavians are blond and light-eyed, although usually not as fair-skinned as the people in Ireland and Britain. Many Scandinavians, even Swedes whom are supposed to be the most Nordid folk on earth, have facial features which deviate from the classic description of Nordid. I am mostly thinking about concave and obtuse noses. Some examples are Tydals (more pronounced among the females of this type), pseudo-Alpinid (called Strandid) blond (more intermediary though) bracycephals on the Norwegian west coast and even similar strains in Southwesternmost Sweden. Uppland and Dalarna have an East-Baltid element.

Blondism in different combinations exist wherever, even in partially Mongolid, thus Mongoloid or Europoid Central Asia. So the origin of Nordid cannot be traced by blondism, and we know that Siberia was once more blond than it is now.

Nordid is associated with the Germanic people, although the Finnic people are probably lighter, with a greyish blond hair, very pale skin and watery grey eyes. Persons of Finnish ancestry in Uppland (a region in Eastern Sweden) are blonder than those of Swedish descent.

Or is it only so that Nordid existed among all European people, Indo-European whom later became Celtic, Germanic, Baltic, Iranic and Slavic and so forth.
Even the Finno-Ugric people, at least Finns, Estonians and Hungarians are
predominantly Europid, whom may have picked up more semi-Mongoloid elements.
The European people with the least Nordid element are of course the people
in the Mediterranean world whom speak Romance/Neo-Latin languages. Northern
France have a Nordid element through German settlements and from fleeing Celts
in Brittany (where North-Atlantid are thought to be common). Northern Italy,
mainly Lombardy/Lombardia (named by a Germanic tribe, Lombards or Langobards) have also Nordids, although I have heard that they are becoming a rare sight in these days, not the least because of emigration from empoverished Southern Italy to the industrial Lombardy.

So what about the Slavic Russians? Are they from East Goths (Ostrogoths) and
later Volksdeutschers (more specific, Russlandsdeutschers) in Southern Russia?
Or also from the Viking Rus. Novgorod was created by Ulrich. Ingermanland, named after the Ingrians, Finnic tribe in Northwestern Russia. It was Swedish till 1702 and then St: Petersburg was built as the new capital. It was formally ceded to Russia by the Treaty of Nystad (1721). What is the influence of those non-Slavic people? E.g. Finnic and Germanic tribes. I just want to eliminate the standard of error. I do not claim that all Russian Nordids are of Germanic (ancient or modern) origin whom have become Slavicised and Russianised.

Lundman divide the long-headed and high-skulled Europids into a blond and a dark group. Aistin, which is found in Western Estonia and Latvia, and another related type he call Arin (Frans Eurasian steppe type, Sarmatic?) without a description in the book that I read. The only thing said is that it is present more south, in Eastern Europe. Aistin and Arin are the blond, high-skulled East-Nordids. The dark group are called East-Mediterranid or Caspid, and the types are Pontid, Indid, Afghanid and Saharid.

I will tell you how the Swedish anthropologist Bertil Lundman wrote about the Aistins in his work "Raser och Folkstockar i Balto-Skandia" (Physical Races and Ethnic Groups in the Baltic and Scandinavian Countries, 1946) and "Jordens Människoraser och Folkstammer" (The Physical Races and Ethnic Groups of the World, 1943).

Aistin, Battle-Axe people came to eastern Sweden through SW Finland and Åland. Another group of Battle-Axe people came from central Europe to the Jutish peninsula, also others, insignificantly later, over Skåne in to western Scandinavia, where they gradually met the eastern stream.

Now about the scheme and where Pontics and Aistins are put.

East-Europids or Caspids

a) Long-headed

1. Dark: East-Mediterranean or Caspid race. Average stature, sometimes over it, often fairly small, sharp face. Many sub-races under this race, that have a spreading, although partly in big mixture, over big parts of Asia, Africa and Europe.

The most important sub-races are the Pontic, Saharid, Indid (all gracile with fine faces, narrow, straight nose, with the latter two weak beard development). The Afghanid (very big-bodied, but thicker, slightly beaked nose, fairly thin lips, heavy beard development).

2. Blond: East-Nordic (except the head height so extraordinarily alike the west-Nordics, that it could be put as a sub-race of it in another draw up)

Is besides that made up by an Aistin sub-race in W. Finland and Estonia, and an Arin, spread in E. Europe and W. Asia, both tall.

So in conclusion, that is how Pontid was defined for me. I have to relearn that
the type is much lighter than I thought, at least in Russia, which is not all
surprising, as Russians are blonder than the European average. Only some smaller
populations in the North Sea might be blonder than Russians on average.

Plate 26
THE PONTIC MEDITERRANEANS:

http://www.legioneuropa.org/Racediv/CSCoon/Papers/p26.htm

Coon is basically saying that they are between the Iranian plataeu race and the
Atlanto-Mediterraneans. But are the Pontids not high-skulled? Do you have pictures of other examples?

Here is another Pontid: http://www.dienekes.com/blog/archives/000165.html

Do you know about the racial condition of Krasnodar?

Awar
Sunday, October 12th, 2003, 10:09 PM
Thanks Volksdeutsche.

Vojvoda
Sunday, October 12th, 2003, 11:30 PM
Thanks Volksdeutsche.

The picture AWAR posted bears a resemblance to this man classified as "Keltic Nord" by Coon. Volksdeutsche,what do you think?

Awar
Monday, October 13th, 2003, 12:06 AM
somewhat, I guess the Coon's guy has got a more sloped forehead.

Prodigal Son
Monday, October 13th, 2003, 03:59 PM
So what about the Slavic Russians? Are they from East Goths (Ostrogoths) and
later Volksdeutschers (more specific, Russlandsdeutschers) in Southern Russia?
Or also from the Viking Rus. Novgorod was created by Ulrich. Ingermanland, named after the Ingrians, Finnic tribe in Northwestern Russia. It was Swedish till 1702 and then St: Petersburg was built as the new capital. It was formally ceded to Russia by the Treaty of Nystad (1721). What is the influence of those non-Slavic people? E.g. Finnic and Germanic tribes. I just want to eliminate the standard of error. I do not claim that all Russian Nordids are of Germanic (ancient or modern) origin whom have become Slavicised and Russianised.

Actually, it's quite impossible for even a substantial minority of Nordid Russians to be of Germanic origin, for several reasons.

First of all, Nordics in Russia are concentrated in the Southeast, which never had any significant Germanic elements (you must be thinking of the Ukraine and Kazakhstan, which did have large volksdeutsche communities). Second, the Germans who did live in those areas were of predominantly Alpine stock. For example, Ukrainian volksdeutschen are darker-pigmented than Ukrainians themselves. Third, Russian Nordics are far too numerous to be of any foreign origin - the Don-Sursk (Nordic) type is the third most important type among ethnic Russians, according to Bunak. Finally, Russian Nordics are quite different from Germanic Nordics; they are darker haired and high-skulled. Igor Shuvalov is a good example of a Nordid Russian:
http://www.grankin.ru/images/shuvalov.jpg

Notice the extreme skull-height.