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Aiko
Friday, February 17th, 2006, 10:41 PM
Chinese are interesting asian stating the first people with uniquely long history (5000 years old). The most common view of chinese origin is that they come from the Yangtze and Yellow river, however the recent scientific evidences suggest that they come from the south east(or south west) asia, and then expand to the northern parts of china.

Chinese (han) tends to say that japanese are from china, and everything (old) comes from china. Is that true?
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Y chromosomal DNA variation in east Asian populations and its potential for inferring the peopling of Korea.

Kim W, Shin DJ, Harihara S, Kim YJ.

Department of Biology, Dankook University, Cheonan, Choong-Nam, Republic of Korea. wookkim@ansco.dankook.ac.kr (wookkim@ansco.dankook.ac.kr)

We have examined variations of five polymorphic loci (DYS287, DXYS5Y, SRY465, DYS19, and DXYS156Y) on the Y chromosome in samples from a total of 1260 males in eight ethnic groups of East Asia. We found four unique haplotypes constructed from three biallelic markers in these samples of East Asians. The Japanese population was characterized by a relatively high frequency of either the haplotype I-2b (-/Y2/T) or II-1 (+/Y1/C). These dual patterns of the distribution of Y chromosomes (I-2b/II-1) were also found in Korea, although they were present at relatively low frequencies. The haplotype II-1 was present in Northeast Asian populations (Chinese, Japanese, Koreans, and Mongolians) only, except for one male from the Thai population among the Southeast Asian populations (Indonesians, Philippines, Thais, and Vietnamese). The Japanese were revealed to have the highest frequency of this haplotype (27.5%), followed by Koreans (2.9%), Mongolians (2.6%), and mainland Chinese (2.2%). In contrast, the frequency of the haplotype I-2b was found to be 17.1% in the Japanese, 9.5% in Indonesian, 6.3% in Korean, 3.8% in Vietnamese, and 2.7% in Thai samples. These findings suggested that the chromosomes of haplotype I-2b were likely derived from certain areas of Northeast Asia, the region closest to Southeast Asia. Phylogenetic analysis using the neighbor-joining tree also reflected a general distinction between Southeast and Northeast Asian populations. The phylogeny revealed a closer genetic relationship between Japanese and Koreans than to the other surveyed Asian populations. Based on the result of the dual patterns of the haplotype distribution, it is more likely that the population structure of Koreans may not have evolved from a single ancient population derived from Northeast Asians, but through dual infusions of Y chromosomes entering Korea from two different waves of East Asians.

PMID: 10721667 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

http://forums.skadi.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=51881&stc=1&d=1140215944

The distribution of Y-chromosomal variation surveyed here reveals significant genetic differences among east Asian populations. Haplogroup DE-YAP (the YAP+ allele) was present at high frequency only in the Japanese and was rare in other parts of east Asia (Table 2, Fig. 2). This result is consistent with previous findings of YAP+ chromosomes only in populations from Japan and Tibet in east Asia (Hammer and Horai 1995; Hammer et al. 1997; Kim et al. 2000; Tajima at al. 2002). However, haplogroup DE-YAP is also found at low frequencies in all the other northeast Asian populations sampled here (2.4% overall, excluding the Japanese; 9.6%, including the Japanese), but only in two of the southern populations (0.8% overall), suggesting that the Korean YAP+ chromosomes are unlikely to have been derived from a southeast Asian source. The prevalence of the YAP+ allele in central Asian populations suggests a genetic contribution to the east Asian populations from the northwest, probably from central Asia (Altheide and Hammer 1997; Jin and Su 2000; Karafet et al. 2001).

Haplogroups C-RPS4Y711 and K-M9 were widely but not evenly distributed in the east Asian populations. Haplogroup C-RPS4Y711 appears to be the predominant northeast Asian haplogroup, with high frequencies in Mongolians (Buryats, 37.3%; Khalkhs, 42.9%) and Manchurians (22.7%; Table 2, Fig. 2). The moderate frequency of haplogroup C-RPS4Y711 Y-chromosomes in Korea (15.0%) implies a genetic influence from northern populations of east Asia, starting possibly in east Siberia. Su and Jin (2001) suggest that the RPS4Y711-T chromosome originated in east Asia, probably in the southeast, and then expanded to the north (Siberia), based on the genetic diversity of Y-STR markers. However, the observed low Y-STR diversity of haplogroup C-RPS4Y711 chromosomes in their surveys of Siberian and central Asian populations compared with east Asian populations could also be explained by a more northern (Mongolian and/or Siberian) origin followed by genetic drift resulting from small effective population sizes (Pakendorf et al. 2002). Recently, Cavalli-Sforza and Feldman (2003) have suggested that haplogroup C-RPS4Y711 expanded both through a southern route from Africa (e.g., India) to Oceania, and a northern one to Mongolia, Siberia, and eventually to northwest America. Further genetic surveys are required to test these hypotheses, with additional markers and more samples from diverse regions of Asia.

In contrast, M9-G Y-chromosomes show an opposing distribution to those carrying RPS4Y711-T in east Asia: they are more frequent in southern populations than in northern ones, showing a clinal variation from about 90% to 60% (Table 1). The haplogroups carrying the M9-G mutation and additional sublineages of M9-G in Korea appear to be at an intermediate frequency (81.9%) between southeast and northeast Asian populations. This result implies that the Korean population may be influenced by both the northeast and southeast Asian populations. Even within haplogroup O, the most frequent Korean STR haplotype (23-10-13 with the markers DYS390-DYS391-DYS393, 19% of haplogroup O; Table 3) is the most frequent in the Philippines (27%), whereas the second most frequent Korean haplotype (24-10-12, 16%) is the most frequent in Manchuria (45%). Thus, the distribution of haplogroups K-M9 and C-RPS4Y711 may reflect dispersals from both north and south. The settlement of each region at different times needs to be considered in order to understand the peopling of east Asia. Recently, Karafet et al. (2001) have noted that realistic explanations for the peopling of east Asia have to accommodate more complex multidirectional biological and cultural influences than earlier models have allowed.

http://forums.skadi.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=51882&stc=1&d=1140215944

In this study, the Koreans appear to be most closely related overall to the Manchurians among east Asian ethnic groups (Fig. 2), although a principal components analysis of haplogroup frequencies reveals that they also cluster with populations from Yunnan and Vietnam (Fig. 3). The genetic relationship with Manchuria is consistent with the historical evidence that the Ancient Chosun, the first state-level society, was established in the region of southern Manchuria and later moved into the Pyongyang area of the northwestern Korean Peninsula. Based on archeological and anthropological data, the early Korean population possibly had a common origin in the northern regions of the Altai Mountains and Lake Baikal of southeastern Siberia (Han 1995; Choi and Rhee 2001). Recent studies of mtDNA (Kivisild et al. 2002) and the Y-chromosome (Karafet et al. 2001) have also indicated that Koreans possess lineages from both the southern and the northern haplogroup complex. In conclusion, the peopling of Korea can be seen as a complex process with an initial northern Asian settlement followed by several migrations, mostly from southern-to-northern China.

Aiko
Friday, February 17th, 2006, 10:44 PM
http://www.journals.uchicago.edu/AJHG/journal/issues/v77n3/42338/42338.h (http://www.journals.uchicago.edu/AJHG/journal/issues/v77n3/42338/42338.h)tml

Y-Chromosome Evidence of Southern Origin of the East AsianSpecific Haplogroup O3-M122

Hong Shi,1,2,6 Yong-li Dong,3 Bo Wen,4 Chun-Jie Xiao,3 Peter A. Underhill,5 Pei-dong Shen,5 Ranajit Chakraborty,7 Li Jin,4,7 and Bing Su1,2,7

1Key Laboratory of Cellular and Molecular Evolution, Kunming Institute of Zoology and 2Kunming Primate Research Center, Chinese Academy of Sciences, 3Key Laboratory of Bio-resources Conservation and Utilization and Human Genetics Center, Yunnan University, Kunming, China; 4State Key Laboratory of Genetic Engineering and Center for Anthropological Studies, School of Life Sciences, Fudan University, Shanghai; 5Department of Genetics, Stanford University, Stanford, CA; 6Graduate School of Chinese Academy of Science, Beijing; and 7Center for Genome Information, University of Cincinnati, Cincinnati

Received March 14, 2005; accepted for publication June 29, 2005; electronically published July 14, 2005.

The prehistoric peopling of East Asia by modern humans remains controversial with respect to early population migrations. Here, we present a systematic sampling and genetic screening of an East Asianspecific Y-chromosome haplogroup (O3-M122) in 2,332 individuals from diverse East Asian populations. Our results indicate that the O3-M122 lineage is dominant in East Asian populations, with an average frequency of 44.3%. The microsatellite data show that the O3-M122 haplotypes in southern East Asia are more diverse than those in northern East Asia, suggesting a southern origin of the O3-M122 mutation. It was estimated that the early northward migration of the O3-M122 lineages in East Asia occurred 25,00030,000 years ago, consistent with the fossil records of modern humans in East Asia.

It should be noted that when we discuss the origin and migration of human populations, a time periodwhich part of the human-population history is under scrutinyshould be clearly defined. Recent population movement and admixture could wipe out or significantly diminish the original genetic signatures of early population movements. Therefore, to extract information for modern human origin and early population movements that happened before the Neolithic period, population-specific markers, such as SNP markers on the Y chromosome, become useful for the study of regional population movements (Jobling and Tyler-Smith 2003). At the same time, recent gene flow between distantly related populations can also be identified and removed in an analysis based on population specificity. Hence, in this sense, extreme caution should be exercised in selection of genetic markers in the study of the origin and early migrations of a continental population, because genetic variations introduced through recent gene flow could create false interpretations, as in two previous studies (Ding et al. 2000; Karafet et al. 2001). The same logic also applies to the selection of populations; ethnic populations with long histories of inhabitation in a region are always preferred for inferring early population histories.

In East Asian populations, there are three regionally distributed (East Asianspecific) Y-chromosome haplogroups under the M175 lineage (fig. 1)O3-M122, O2-M95, and O1-M119together accounting for 57% of the Y chromosomes in East Asian populations (table 1). The O3-M122 has the highest frequency (41.8% on average) (fig. 2) in East Asians, especially in Han Chinese (52.06% in northern Han and 53.72% in southern Han) (table 1), and it is absent outside East Asia. Previous studies have shown that O2-M95 and O1-M119 are prevalent in SEAS and probably originated in the south (Su et al. 1999, 2000a; Wen et al. 2004a, 2004b) (table 1). Therefore, tracing the origin of O3-M122 became critical for a full understanding of the origin and early migrations of modern East Asians.

http://forums.skadi.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=51883&stc=1&d=1140216220

The frequency distribution of the O3-M122 haplotypes in East Asian and other continental populations. The data used were from published studies (Su et al. 1999, 2000a, 2000b; Qian et al. 2000; Semino et al. 2000; Underhill et al. 2000; Karafet et al. 2001; Lell et al. 2002; Jin et al. 2003; Wen et al. 2004a).

Aiko
Friday, February 17th, 2006, 10:48 PM
http://forums.skadi.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=51885&stc=1&d=1140216465
Fig. 2. Frequency distributions of the eight Y-chromosome haplotypes for the 14 global populations, with their approximate geographic locations. The frequencies of the eight haplotypes are shown as colored pie charts (for color codes, see upper left insert). JP Japanese

Only four Japanese populations exhibited ht1 (defined only by YAP+) at various frequencies (also see Table 1). The highest frequency (87.5%) was found in JP-Ainu, followed by JP-Okinawa (55.6%) living in the southwestern islands of Japan, JP-Honshu (36.6%), and JP-Kyushu (27.9%). The ht2 haplotype (defined by YAP+/M15+) was found in only two males, one each from Thais and Thai-Khmers; ht3 (defined by YAP+/SRY4064-A) was completely absent in the Asian populations examined, whereas Jewish in the Uzbekistan and African populations had this haplotype with a frequency of 28.3% and 100%, respectively. Thus, the YAP+ lineage was found in restricted populations among Asian populations, consistent with previous reports (Hammer and Horai 1995; Hammer et al. 1997; Shinka et al. 1999).

The ht4 haplotype (defined only by M9-G) was widely distributed among north, east, and southeast Asian populations, except for the Ainu. This haplotype was frequent (60.5%) in overall Asian populations (Table 1). Among them, the Han Chinese and southeast Asian populations were characterized by high frequencies ranging from 81.0% to 96.0%. In contrast to ht4, ht5 (defined by M9-G/DYS257108-A) and ht6 (defined by M9-G/DYS257108-A/SRY10831-A) were small contributors to Asian populations. The highest frequency of ht5 was observed in Nivkhi (19.0%) and that of the ht6 in Thai-Khmers (10.8%). The ht5 haplotype is widely distributed among European, Asian, and Native American populations and is proposed to be one of the candidates for founder haplotypes in the Americas (Karafet et al. 1999). Furthermore, high frequencies of ht6 were observed in north Europe, central Asia, and India (Karafet et al. 1999). Thus, the presence of ht5 in Nivkhi may account for the founder effect of peopling of the Americas.

The ht7 haplotype (defined by RPS4Y-T) was also widely distributed throughout Asia with the exceptions of Malaysia and the Philippines, whereas this was absent in two non-Asian populations. The highest frequency of ht7 was found in Buryats (83.6%), followed by Nivkhi (38.1%). Thus, the geographic distribution of ht7 in Asia appears to contrast with that of ht4.

Only eight individuals (1.4%) in Asia belonged to ht8, which was the major haplotype in Jewish population (Table 1). The ht8 haplotype may not be useful for inferring population relatedness among Asian populations because it is defined by no mutations. Additional Y-polymorphic markers such as M89 and M168 (Underhill et al. 2000; Ke et al. 2001) will be needed to investigate details of the formation of modern Asian populations.

Aiko
Friday, February 17th, 2006, 10:52 PM
J Hum Genet. 2004;49(4):187-93. Epub 2004 Mar 2. Related Articles, Links


Genetic origins of the Ainu inferred from combined DNA analyses of maternal and paternal lineages.

Tajima A, Hayami M, Tokunaga K, Juji T, Matsuo M, Marzuki S, Omoto K, Horai S.

Department of Biosystems Science, The Graduate University for Advanced Studies (Sokendai), Hayama, Kanagawa 240-0193, Japan.

The Ainu, a minority ethnic group from the northernmost island of Japan, was investigated for DNA polymorphisms both from maternal (mitochondrial DNA) and paternal (Y chromosome) lineages extensively. Other Asian populations inhabiting North, East, and Southeast Asia were also examined for detailed phylogeographic analyses at the mtDNA sequence type as well as Y-haplogroup levels. The maternal and paternal gene pools of the Ainu contained 25 mtDNA sequence types and three Y-haplogroups, respectively. Eleven of the 25 mtDNA sequence types were unique to the Ainu and accounted for over 50% of the population, whereas 14 were widely distributed among other Asian populations. Of the 14 shared types, the most frequently shared type was found in common among the Ainu, Nivkhi in northern Sakhalin, and Koryaks in the Kamchatka Peninsula. Moreover, analysis of genetic distances calculated from the mtDNA data revealed that the Ainu seemed to be related to both the Nivkhi and other Japanese populations (such as mainland Japanese and Okinawans) at the population level. On the paternal side, the vast majority (87.5%) of the Ainu exhibited the Asian-specific YAP+ lineages (Y-haplogroups D-M55* and D-M125), which were distributed only in the Japanese Archipelago in this analysis. On the other hand, the Ainu exhibited no other Y-haplogroups (C-M8, O-M175*, and O-M122*) common in mainland Japanese and Okinawans. It is noteworthy that the rest of the Ainu gene pool was occupied by the paternal lineage (Y-haplogroup C-M217*) from North Asia including Sakhalin. Thus, the present findings suggest that the Ainu retain a certain degree of their own genetic uniqueness, while having higher genetic affinities with other regional populations in Japan and the Nivkhi among Asian populations.

PMID: 14997363 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

Aiko
Friday, February 17th, 2006, 10:55 PM
http://mbe.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/co...ull/19/10/1737 (http://mbe.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/co...ull/19/10/1737)
Free Online Journal Edition

The Emerging Limbs and Twigs of the East Asian mtDNA Tree
Toomas Kivisild*, Helle-Viivi Tolk*, Jüri Parik*, Yiming Wang, Surinder S. Papiha, Hans-Jürgen Bandelt and Richard Villems*

*Department of Evolutionary Biology, Tartu University and Estonian Biocentre, Estonia;
Department of Medical Genetics, Sun Yat-Sen University of Medical Sciences, People's Republic of China;
Department of Human Genetics, University of Newcastle-upon-Tyne;
Department of Mathematics, University of Hamburg, Germany

We determine the phylogenetic backbone of the East Asian mtDNA tree by using published complete mtDNA sequences and assessing both coding and control region variation in 69 Han individuals from southern China. This approach assists in the interpretation of published mtDNA data on East Asians based on either control region sequencing or restriction fragment length polymorphism (RFLP) typing. Our results confirm that the East Asian mtDNA pool is locally region-specific and completely covered by the two superhaplogroups M and N. The phylogenetic partitioning based on complete mtDNA sequences corroborates existing RFLP-based classification of Asian mtDNA types and supports the distinction between northern and southern populations. We describe new haplogroups M7, M8, M9, N9, and R9 and demonstrate by way of example that hierarchically subdividing the major branches of the mtDNA tree aids in recognizing the settlement processes of any particular region in appropriate time scale. This is illustrated by the characteristically southern distribution of haplogroup M7 in East Asia, whereas its daughter-groups, M7a and M7b2, specific for Japanese and Korean populations, testify to a presumably (pre-)Jomon contribution to the modern mtDNA pool of Japan.

http://forums.skadi.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=51886&stc=1&d=1140216911

Fig. 3.—Phylogenetic reconstruction and geographic distribution of haplogroup M7. a, A network of HVS-I haplotypes, which comprises the superposition of the most parsimonious trees for the three postulated sets of M7a, M7b, and M7c sequences. The mutations along the bold links were only analyzed for a few Japanese sequences (Ozawa et al. 1991 ; Ozawa 1995 ; Nishino et al. 1996 ) and—toward the root of M—for some Chinese sequences (this study): the corresponding individuals with (partial) coding region information are boxed. Numbers along links indicate transitions; recurrent HVS-I mutations are underlined. The age of mtDNA clades is calculated (along the tree indicated by unbroken lines) according to Forster et al. (1996) , with standard errors estimated as in Saillard et al. (2000) . Sample codes (and sources): AI—Ainu (Horai et al. 1996 ); CH—Chinese (Betty et al. 1996 ; Nishimaki et al. 1999 ; Qian et al. 2001 ; Yao et al. 2002 ; this study); IN—Indonesian (Redd and Stoneking 1999 ); JP—Japanese (Ozawa et al. 1991 ; Ozawa 1995 ; Horai et al. 1996 ; Nishino et al. 1996 ; Seo et al. 1998 ; Nishimaki et al. 1999 ); KN—Koreans (Horai et al. 1996 ; Lee et al. 1997 ; Pfeiffer et al. 1998 ); MA—Mansi (Derbeneva et al. 2002 ); MJ—Majuro (Sykes et al. 1995 ); MO—Mongolians (Kolman, Sambuughin, and Bermingham 1996 ); PH—Philippines (Sykes et al. 1995 ; Maca-Meyer 2001 ); RY—Ryukyuans (Horai et al. 1996 ); SB—Sabah (Sykes et al. 1995 ); TW—Taiwanese Han (Horai et al. 1996 ) and aboriginals (Melton et al. 1998 ); UI—Uighur (Comas et al. 1998 ; Yao et al. 2000 ); YA—Yakuts (Derenko and Shields 1997 ). b, Frequencies of the subgroups of M7 in Asian populations are inferred from the preceding HVS-I as well as partial HVS-I and RFLP data (VN—Vietnamese: Ballinger et al. 1992 ; Lum et al. 1998 ). Mainland Han Chinese are denoted as follows: GD—Guangdong, LN—Liaoning, QD—Qingdao, WH—Wuhan, XJ—Xinjiang, YU—Yunnan (Yao et al. 2002 ), SH—Shanghai (Nishimaki et al. 1999 ). The number of M7 sequences in relation to the sample size is indicated under each pie slice proportional to the M7 frequency

Aiko
Friday, February 17th, 2006, 11:03 PM
According to genetic results, apporx. 60% or more Japanese are of continental origin (korean/chinese). However, there are significant jomon/ainu bloods in them.

I think on average, japanese appearances are nowhere in east asian. My guess is due to the the distorsion introduced by jomon/ainu bloods, and their unique facial structures. I guess, there must be some japanese who could be almost deemed as chinese or korean, but there are japanese who is completely outside the chinese/korean facial features.

The first modern East Asians? another look at Upper Cave

101, Liujiang and Minatogawa 1
Peter Brown , Department of Archaeology and Palaeoanthropology , University of New England , Armidale, NSW 2351, Australia

http://forums.skadi.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=51887&stc=1&d=1140217173

Lower left is close to the present day han chinese.

MINATOGAWA 1 - The Minatogawa 1 male skeleton was found in 1970 at the Minatogawa limestone quarry on Okinawa (Suzuki and Hanihara 1982).

The first modern East Asians?: another look at Upper Cave 101, Liujiang and Minatogawa 1

Three female skeletons, in varying states of preservation, and assorted other fragments were also recovered. The Minatogawa skeletons have been described in detail in Suzuki and Hanihara (1982), with Suzuki (1982) describing the crania. Additional comparative information can be found in Baba and Nerasaki (1991). The Minatogawa 1 cranium is not as complete as Liujiang and Upper Cave 101, particularly in the basi-cranium, facial skeleton and temporal regions. Several of the dimensions used in the analysis to follow had to be estimated.

Unlike Liujiang and Upper Cave there does not appear to have been any concern over the reliability of the dating of Minatogawa. Radiocarbon dates of 18,250 ±650 to 16,600 ±300 years BP were obtained from charcoal inside the fissure (Kobayashi et al. 1974). Fluorine content of human and non-human bones within the site suggested that they were contemporaneous (Matsu’ura 1982). Assuming that the site was well stratified, that the carbon dates do bracket the skeletons and that the skeletons were not intrusive, then Minatogawa remains do have a strong claim to being the earliest modern human skeletons in East Asia.

http://forums.skadi.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=51889&stc=1&d=1140217380

Overall, the scatter plot of Functions 1 and 2 indicate the relative morphological similarity of the modern and Neolithic Chinese groups, while the modern Japanese are closer to a wider range of East Asian and Native American populations. Plots of the total group dispersions associated with Figure 3 revealed the large degree of overlap between the Neolithic and modern Chinese and between the modern Japanese, Anyang, Hainan and Native American groups. The Eskimo and Ainu were more distinct, as were both of the Australian Aboriginal groups.

Please note that northern and southern japanese are in the middle point between N/S chinese and ainu/jomon/minatogawa. This represents the japanese population divided into the two completely diverged skull/facial structures.

Aiko
Friday, February 17th, 2006, 11:08 PM
I presume that on the northernmost japan (aomori, akita, etc), people's face can have many features like ainu, jomon, minatogawa, but no chinese like facial structures could be expected, because of the genetic distributions of YAP+ and DE-YAP and some mtDNA markers. The rest will be defined as yayoi coming from the continent through korean peninsula.

http://forums.skadi.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=51890&stc=1&d=1140217656

The results show the average faces of east asian (and some other related)populations.

Please notice that N/S japanese faces are slightly different from N/S chinese. I think this is due to the ainu/jomon population and/or mixtures of both natives and continentals.

Northern chinese are independent of modern yayoi japanese facial structures. Southern chinese are somewhat similar, so the southern chinese tribes may have immigrated to japan through korea 2kya, which now comprises the 60% of total japanese population.

Please note the ainu/jomon (native japanese islanders) which should represent roughly 40% or less of total japanese population (by the results of genetic analysis) are really nothign like the N/S chinese.

Aiko
Friday, February 17th, 2006, 11:11 PM
My Ainu friend (got permission to publish here)

Janus
Friday, February 17th, 2006, 11:16 PM
The simplified facial structure sheet is just great but nevertheless I have some questions:You said that 60% of the Japanese population has a continental background.Does that include the palaemongolid and tungid part or is it just about the sinids?And is your friend fully Ainu because he looks quite different from those I've seen.Maybe the lack of beard makes the difference but also his eyes and face shape seem more mongolid than what I've seen of the Ainu.
Anyways it was a great post.

Aiko
Friday, February 17th, 2006, 11:22 PM
Courtesy of National Science Museum at Ueno/Shinjuku

http://forums.skadi.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=51892&stc=1&d=1140218024

Mainstream hypothesis of migrations into the Japanese islands from Sibelia and Korea. Red=Jomon/Ainu (native islanders), Yellow=Yayoi (korean/chinese)

http://forums.skadi.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=51893&stc=1&d=1140218055

Predicted distribution of Ainu/Jomon Japanese. The red stands for the Ainu ethnicity in modern japanese in molecular levels, and the yellow indicates the yayoi japanese.

http://forums.skadi.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=51894&stc=1&d=1140218055


Method of matching up the morphological data with samples:

So what does Ainu and Northern Japanese really look like?

Superficially, we have to consider the representative of the population rather than averaging out. I think the person from the noble family seems to be the most suitable sample for dissecting the phenotype of northern japanese. This is due to the traditional japanese system that samurai or any noble class belong to the lords so the number of years these lords govern means that the samurai under the hierachy has lived with them and rather stay in one place for the long period of time.

Traditional samurai (bushi) and aristocrat (kuge) are hereditary. It's not like your boss fussing around his people, and throw them away. They have very limited capability to even fire off their workers. Except a few dictators like Oda Nobunaga, and Taira no masakado, local lords have to take care of people as much as they do to their family. You can verify this by looking at the cheap furnitures of the lords, if you ever had a chance to visit shiro au japon. In cases the noumin (farmers) complain to the central authority (Tenno or Shogun), they themselves be replaced with other guys.

From heian to edo period, japanese feudal systems impose severe restrictions (shouen seido to baku han taisei) on moving of people. People belongs to shou (or han), and are not allowed to move to other prefectures. This is why japanese calls their society, mura (village). They don't accept outsiders, for if they do it, they will be punished by the highest authority to illegally admit people from the outside.

Taking samples based on locations are justified given that northern han and southern han chinese are sometimes merely classified by their birthplaces, although researchers claim that they do more surveys, but in countries other than japan, you have to make quiet a strong assumption. How about Caviella at Stanford? He's using this method with chinese population so as long as we stick to the old Japanese population, our method does not go beyond the conventional research method. You just need to take the oldest pictures of the oldest family people, then I think the method is accurate enough.

The figure above of the National Science Museum at Ueno shows the predicted distributions of modern japane ethno-demography. We see the strong support for assuming that eastern, north eastern, northern japan, and southern japan has the higher frequency of habitation of native islanders. The comparison of skulls with, say, central japanese may reveal some morphological differences between each of japanese populations.

I think some renowned or famous guys in this field like Philip Deitiker use more radical approaches for classifying people by looks, and that's similar to mainstream genealogist. I used more conventional approaches than these people. I used the Brown's resutls (posted above) based on Howell's approaches and tried to match up the results with some historical figures who has more information known than J-POP or K-POP singers who only has the birthplace on their profiles. These samurai has a history of some up to 1000 years or more , and this makes me feel that they are representative of both ainu/jomon and yayoi japanese.

Northern Japanese

Mutsu Munemitsu, A minister of Foreign Affair

http://forums.skadi.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=51895&stc=1&d=1140218174

He is nothern japanese from the noblest family in northern japan.
His family tree is from Hiraizumi-Fujiwara clan (Emishi related Ainu).
His ancestor includes some figures like Date Masamune, and the origin of family dates back more than 1000 years ago,

The same person

http://forums.skadi.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=51899&stc=1&d=1140218537

Iinuma Sadakichi (1853-1931) born in Aizu-han

http://forums.skadi.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=51896&stc=1&d=1140218362


Eastern Japanese

Katsu Kaishu, Admiral of the Shogun's fleet

http://forums.skadi.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=51897&stc=1&d=1140218425
http://forums.skadi.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=51900&stc=1&d=1140218539

Aiko
Friday, February 17th, 2006, 11:30 PM
Now, having said about the nothern japanese (northern can be replaced by northernmost). I would like to mention about the southernmost japanese.
They are known to be related to Ryukyuan/Okinawan, and their phenotypes seem to be fairly ainu, but they seem to be mixed with continentals, so they show more varieties. Prime Minister Koizumi's family comes from the noble family in Kagoshima-ken, and he belongs to this class of people.

Togo Heihachiro, An admiral, A national hero in Japan-Russo War (no involvement in WWII)
http://forums.skadi.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=51901&stc=1&d=1140218991

Southernmost Japanese. His ancestor was a neighbor of koizumi's.

Togo Heihachiro in his 58 years old
http://forums.skadi.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=51902&stc=1&d=1140218991

Okubo Toshimichi, Revolutionary, A founder of Meiji Government
Born in Kagoshima, Southernmost Japan
http://forums.skadi.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=51903&stc=1&d=1140218991

He is the suppoter of domestic development and resisted the
"Conquering of Korea".

He suppressed regional rebellions by the former
samurai class that ended with the Satsuma Rebellion,
but was assassinated by a former samurai in 1878.

His background is middle-ranking samurai, and his phenotype
seems to be from the relation to Ryukyuan, native islanders.

The same person
http://forums.skadi.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=51904&stc=1&d=1140218991

Aiko
Friday, February 17th, 2006, 11:33 PM
Let's now look at KOREAN population.

Average (not necessarily typical) Korean face

http://forums.skadi.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=51905&stc=1&d=1140219183

Korean scientists allegedly produced what they call, "the average Korean face". The Korean Institute of Science and Technology information (KISTI) working together with the Catholic Institute for Applied Anatomy made computer tomographic scans of Koreans last year and with the aid of a supercomputer produced a "digital Korean" -- a 3-D video of the average Korean's physical structure.

Do you see much differences from the northen japanese?

Aiko
Friday, February 17th, 2006, 11:38 PM
Now, Let's look at northern han CHINESE face.

http://www.angle.org/anglonline/?req...e=05&page=0393 (http://www.angle.org/anglonline/?req...e=05&page=0393)

Perception of Facial Esthetics by Native Chinese Participants by Using Manipulated Digital Imagery Techniques
Sample population

The Chinese rater group consisted of 85 native Chinese participants from Beijing. Of these raters, 38 were women, and 47 were men (45% women and 55% men). Their mean age was 26.3 ± 5.3 years.

Manipulated digital imagery technique

An adult native Chinese male and female stimulus face (A) was selected for digital distortion (Figures 1 and 2 ). Both subjects were 24 years old and were chosen because they exhibited Class I occlusions with average dental proclination and balanced lower facial skeletal proportions previously established as norms for this population. They were meant to be representative of the average facial profile for this ethnic group. Because the Chinese have a shorter than average anterior cranial base and a dental proclination greater than Caucasian norms, their “normal” profile would be classified, by Caucasian standards, as bimaxillary protrusive.29,30 This profile was selected as representative of the “normal” Chinese participant.

http://forums.skadi.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=51906&stc=1&d=1140219473
FIGURE 1. The “normal” Chinese male stimulus face (A) with a balance of dental and skeletal proportions

http://forums.skadi.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=51907&stc=1&d=1140219473
FIGURE 2. The “normal” Chinese female stimulus face (A) with a balance of dental and skeletal proportions

Aiko
Friday, February 17th, 2006, 11:45 PM
Now the pics from Japan, Left is Yayoi (korean/chinese) and Right seems to be Jomon (Native islanders) Japanese, though her face
is still intermediate between ainu and chinese faces.

http://forums.skadi.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=51910&stc=1&d=1140219860
Can you see the similarity of Yayoi Japanese to Chinese on the above figure? But do you think they can be like northern japanese?

Aiko
Friday, February 17th, 2006, 11:50 PM
Komura Jutaro, Minister of Foreign Affair, Harvard Graduate
http://forums.skadi.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=51912&stc=1&d=1140220197

Akiyama Saneyuki, Hero in Japan-Russo, he retired immediately after the war, and commited harakiri
http://forums.skadi.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=51913&stc=1&d=1140220208

Akiyama Yoshifuru
http://forums.skadi.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=51914&stc=1&d=1140220208

Last two people are not having any record of being jomon. They are southern japanese. I posted this because their phenotype is somewhere between japanese and chinese. Very interesting

The first pic of komura can be representative of any japanese (he looks both chinese and japanese), but his background seems to be jomon.

Aiko
Friday, February 17th, 2006, 11:53 PM
http://forums.skadi.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=51916&stc=1&d=1140220370
Group of Ainu people, 1904 photograph, taken in Hokkaido Japan

Due to intermarriage with the Japanese and ongoing absorption into the predominant culture, few living Ainu settlements exist. Many "authentic Ainu villages" advertised in Hokkaido are simply tourist attractions.

Aiko
Friday, February 17th, 2006, 11:55 PM
tagaki Taisuke, Born in Tosa, Home minister, Leader of Liberal Party, Precursor of LDP
http://forums.skadi.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=51917&stc=1&d=1140220535
He is a southern japanese in Shikoku. Likely to be Jomon japanese.

Aiko
Friday, February 17th, 2006, 11:58 PM
Murata Shinpachi, Born in Kagoshima, Politician
http://forums.skadi.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=51918&stc=1&d=1140220697

He is a southernmost japanese most likely related to Ryukyuan.

Aiko
Saturday, February 18th, 2006, 12:04 AM
I made a rough assumption that:

60-70% of japanese are from china/korea.
30-40% of japanese are from the north of sibelia.

which is confirmed by the results in genetic analysis.

Now I will complete my posts by quoting the japanese people who are born in the country which is one of the closest to Korean Peninsula. Choshu.

Japanese Modernization actually comes from the union of Choshu (Yamaguchi-ken, Korea or Continental) and Satsuma (Kagoshima-ken, Native islanders such as Ainu, Ryukyuan, Jomon) Clan. It may be possible to compare the two? I think it is a nice idea to see the immediate differences with the earlier posted picture capturing only native islanders.

Let's now look at the central japanese people (Yayoi aka Korean/Chinese).

Ito Hirobumi, the first prime minister of Japan
http://forums.skadi.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=51921&stc=1&d=1140221053

He is a central japanese from Yamaguchi-ken. Geographically, Yamaguchi is one of the closest country to Korea. He could be one of the Korean-origin Japanese.

His interest in Korea is known by his famous annexation of Korea.

Aiko
Saturday, February 18th, 2006, 12:12 AM
Another Yayoi (aka Korean/Chinese descent) Japanese

Okuma Shigenobu, The minister of Foreign Affair
http://forums.skadi.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=51922&stc=1&d=1140221448
He is from Choshu, Yamaguchi. He is a typical central Japanese.
His look is in contrast to those Shimazu-clan and northern japanese noble.


Katsura Taro, Prime Minister, Born in Choshu (Korean related)
http://forums.skadi.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=51923&stc=1&d=1140221492

He is the most tactful politician devising the overthrow of Shogun Regime, and hand the power back to imperial family. He was sent to Germany to learn strategy and tactics.

As with Ito Hirobumi, the first prime minister of Japan, his background is humble, and from not so wealthy background.

Japanese politician until Koizumi's (southernmost japanese)takeover of the government was Choshu-dominant, and most influential politicians are from this area of Japan (Choshu).


Yamagata Aritomo, Prime Minister of Japan, Born in Choshu (Korean/Chinese-Related)
http://forums.skadi.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=51924&stc=1&d=1140221492
His background is the low-ranking samurai. He is most likely a Yayoi Japanese.

Aiko
Saturday, February 18th, 2006, 12:15 AM
Now Let's assess the REAL Chinese appearance. We'll look at the historical figure again

Yuan Shikai, Han Chinese General, Republic president, dictator and chinese emperor
http://forums.skadi.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=51926&stc=1&d=1140221716

Yuan Shikai again
http://forums.skadi.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=51925&stc=1&d=1140221716

Aiko
Saturday, February 18th, 2006, 12:25 AM
CHINESE: Eyes are generally placed flat to the facial surface with the double eyelids. Also notice that eye and eyebrows are positioned on almost the same level, giving even flater impressions. The epicanthic fold are heavily expressed.

JAPANESE: Eyes are placed deeper inside the skull, giving the sunken eyes with single eyelid, or double eyelids formed along with skull (in chinese face, double eyelids are simply formed with eye folds). Epicanthic folds not highly expressed, but idyosyncrasies of eyes are expressed as the narrowly visible are of the eyes.

KOREAN: thinner, lighter eyebrows, flatter faces and noses, rounder faces, and the rear parts of their jawbones are more square


Comparison of Average Korean-Japanese-Thai Face.

KOREAN FACE (LEFT) - JAPANESE FACE (MIDDLE) - THAI FACE (RIGHT)
http://forums.skadi.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=51927&stc=1&d=1140222260

Average face stands for the standardization of face measurements typically comprising
of more than 20 facial features, and superimposed on just one face.

Cnooc
Saturday, February 18th, 2006, 01:59 AM
STOP GENERALIZING CHINESE AND JAPANESE PEOPLE. They are not races but nationalities, and both nationalities are a mixture of various mongoloid races who have inhabited China and Japan in the past. THERE IS NO AVERAGE "Chinese" nor "Japanese" as phenotypical differences differ widely from region to region, and even among populations in the same regions. A quick glance at any eastern Chinese city from Beijing from Hongkong will reveal a great diversity of phenotypes.

Not all Chinese people look like the faces you just posted. Here is Chiang Kai-Shek's son, who actually fought in the Wehrmacht and was a German officer:

http://forums.skadi.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=51931&stc=1&d=1140226089


other Chinese individuals northeast types:

http://forums.skadi.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=44625&d=1131817854http://forums.skadi.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=44624&stc=1&d=1131873170

northwest type:

http://forums.skadi.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=51934&stc=1&d=1140227167

to more southern looking types:

pictured here is a southwester tibeto-burmic type:
http://forums.skadi.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=50661&d=1138904014

Mon-Khmer Southeast type

http://forums.skadi.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=50649&d=1138903873http://forums.skadi.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=51935&stc=1&d=1140227520


It is the same deal with Japanese people, they can look anywhere from looking rather polynesian

http://forums.skadi.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=51938&stc=1&d=1140227818

to looking rather caucasoid:

http://www.geraldpeary.com/interviews/mno/mifune.jpghttp://forums.skadi.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=47360&stc=1&d=1135508413

Janus
Saturday, February 18th, 2006, 10:56 AM
It is indeed generalizing because it does not provide us with informations about the exact continental racial background of the Japanese and generalizes that continental background as Chinese whereas that is not wrong because actually all those races found in Japan (except the native people there) exist also in the present China which is full of different ethnicities.

Asianist
Thursday, February 23rd, 2006, 09:05 PM
If my memory serves me right, there are five genetically different types of peoples found in Japan: the Yayoi from China/Korea (2/3), the Jomon from Siberia (northern Asia, close to 1/3), the Polynesians, the Eskimo...Anyway I don't think it's a good idea to generalize the Chinese population. It might be an easier task to do so with the Koreans or Japanese.

Dombvi
Sunday, February 26th, 2006, 10:33 AM
so many japanese are proto-caucasoid?

Nomad
Saturday, March 4th, 2006, 05:06 PM
The Japanese and especially Koreans seem to be paedomorphic in comparison to northern Chinese.


Northern/central Chinese

Jiang Wen (north Chinese, 185cm tall)
http://images.qianlong.com/mmsource/images/2005/02/28/wll20.jpg

Yang Kun (northern)
http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/2004-04/14/xinsrc_1704011411077392639527.jpg

Zhang Fengyi (central, 185cm)
http://img.epochtimes.com/i4/2003-5-3-138-zhangfengyi.jpg

Liu Ye (northeastern, 186cm)
http://en.chinabroadcast.cn/mmsource/image/2005-5-13/liu-ye.jpg

The Japanese in general do seem to have deeper-set eyes and longer, thinner noses than Chinese. But at the same time much have more subcutenous fat on the face, more neotenic features, and a smaller build and height.

Dombvi
Sunday, March 5th, 2006, 11:22 PM
Hitler said that the Japanese had strong Aryan influence, many considered that to be silly back then, but later Japanese anthropologists made it official that the people of Japan were somewhat proto-caucasoid.

So hitler was right? maybe not so accurate but somewhat right.

Nomad
Monday, March 6th, 2006, 09:29 AM
Hitler said that the Japanese had strong Aryan influence, many considered that to be silly back then, but later Japanese anthropologists made it official that the people of Japan were somewhat proto-caucasoid.

So hitler was right? maybe not so accurate but somewhat right.

More precisely the Japanese have influence from the Ainu--who are basically depigmented Australoids. The features of Australoids and Caucasoids are rather similar (tall nose bridge, deep set eyes, thick bodily and facial hair) but the tropical features of the former-- proganthism, thick lips and broad nose--set them apart from the latter. After mixing with the Japanese, the Ainu appearance became more aquiline, resulting in caucasoid-like facial features.

Agrippa
Monday, March 6th, 2006, 05:36 PM
Comparison of Average Korean-Japanese-Thai Face.

KOREAN FACE (LEFT) - JAPANESE FACE (MIDDLE) - THAI FACE (RIGHT)
http://forums.skadi.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=51927&stc=1&d=1140222260

Average face stands for the standardization of face measurements typically comprising
of more than 20 facial features, and superimposed on just one face.



This is a really excellent composition and I can say that they can be directly classified as Tungo-Sinid (Korean), Nordsinid (Japanese) and Palaemongolid or Palaemongolid-Suedsinid) - in fact they are excellent representatives for the great differences, variation there. However, it would be interesting to know how representative they were. Korean and Thai seems to be ok, but if Japanese are really that Nordsinid on average...

Asianist
Tuesday, March 7th, 2006, 10:51 PM
This is a really excellent composition and I can say that they can be directly classified as Tungo-Sinid (Korean), Nordsinid (Japanese) and Palaemongolid or Palaemongolid-Suedsinid) - in fact they are excellent representatives for the great differences, variation there. However, it would be interesting to know how representative they were. Korean and Thai seems to be ok, but if Japanese are really that Nordsinid on average...

I am also wondering if the Japanese one is representative, just did a search on the web for the common Japanese people's faces:


http://ice.s.cs.yamanashi.ac.jp/~nabe/face000821.JPG

http://www.trans.civil.nagoya-u.ac.jp/~toshi/photo/Face.JPG


http://www.yuasa.kuis.kyoto-u.ac.jp/~yuasa/yuasa.jpg

http://www.people.virginia.edu/~mk3u/mk_lab/images/mk_face2.jpg


http://www.fuka.info.waseda.ac.jp/Project/CBSE/fukabeans/face.jpg

http://staff.aist.go.jp/yoshizawa-akio/image/face.jpg

http://www.bmc.riken.jp/~tosh/images/mukai.jpg

http://www.mmm.muroran-it.ac.jp/~fjmt/staff/fjmt/fjmt.jpg

The sixth and seventh ones look like Machurians but with thicker eyebrows and the last one sort of Ainu.

Nomad
Wednesday, March 8th, 2006, 10:00 AM
The second guy has a very "southern" look, with his broad nose, thick lips and darker pigment. Quite similar to the typical coastal southern Chinese.

Asianist
Wednesday, March 8th, 2006, 04:02 PM
The second guy has a very "southern" look, with his broad nose, thick lips and darker pigment. Quite similar to the typical coastal southern Chinese.

The second guy? yeah, he does have darker pigment, but still with sort of up-lifted nose by the eastern Asian standard. There are quite many guys similar to him in southern China but with lighter skin.

Asianist
Wednesday, March 8th, 2006, 04:17 PM
Cantonese faces:

http://www.ktsf.com/ktsf_e/images/picture/meiling.jpg


http://www.ktsf.com/ktsf_e/images/picture/yalek.jpg

http://www.ktsf.com/ktsf_e/images/picture/angelina.jpg

http://www.ktsf.com/ktsf_e/images/picture/cecelia.jpg

http://www.ktsf.com/ktsf_e/images/picture/kwokshu.jpg

http://www.ktsf.com/ktsf_e/images/picture/hellas.jpg

http://www.ocf.berkeley.edu/~ecmok/OhYes/Bios/Group3/ivy.jpg

Asianist
Thursday, March 16th, 2006, 04:30 PM
Just found an interesting web site with a lot of photos of common Japanese university students:


http://comm.hum.ibaraki.ac.jp/englishworkshop/studentprofiles/studentprofiles.htm

Asianist
Friday, March 17th, 2006, 04:58 PM
The distribution of Y-chromosomal variation surveyed here reveals significant genetic differences among east Asian populations. Haplogroup DE-YAP (the YAP+ allele) was present at high frequency only in the Japanese and was rare in other parts of east Asia (Table 2, Fig. 2). This result is consistent with previous findings of YAP+ chromosomes only in populations from Japan and Tibet in east Asia (Hammer and Horai 1995; Hammer et al. 1997; Kim et al. 2000; Tajima at al. 2002). However, haplogroup DE-YAP is also found at low frequencies in all the other northeast Asian populations sampled here (2.4% overall, excluding the Japanese; 9.6%, including the Japanese), but only in two of the southern populations (0.8% overall), suggesting that the Korean YAP+ chromosomes are unlikely to have been derived from a southeast Asian source. The prevalence of the YAP+ allele in central Asian populations suggests a genetic contribution to the east Asian populations from the northwest, probably from central Asia (Altheide and Hammer 1997; Jin and Su 2000; Karafet et al. 2001).

======================

YAP+ finding is the real beef in Hammer and Horai's research. It's very interesting that only the Japanese and the Tibetans have high frequencies of YAP+, and those two peoples are so apart! The explanations for this fact may be different. Aiko's sources guess that the YAP+ originated from somewhere in central Asia and arrived in Tibet by south route and in Japan via Sibera by north route (Jomon), however, it failed to solve the puzzle: why the Mongolians and other northern Asians got so low frequency of YAP+? Here I am puting forward a thought about the Japanese YAP+: according to the Shi-ji, the official Chinese chronicle series of Han Dynasty, two princes of Zhou state (1100 BC~226 BC) in northwest China and thousands of their followers moved southeast to east China by the Han River and the Yangtze River around 1000 BC, and set up a new state Wu in nowadays Suzhou-Shanghai area. Some theories believe the Yayoi people showed up in Japan Islands between 300 AD~250 AD were actually from state Wu of east China----those wet rice-farming people moved to south Korea and Kyushu almost at the same time after their country was destroyed by the military powers Chu and Chin/Han from west China. It's well-known that the Zhou people were very close to the Tibetans. This is another story about the mysterious YAP+, heheh.

Tryggvi
Friday, March 17th, 2006, 11:11 PM
STOP GENERALIZING CHINESE AND JAPANESE PEOPLE. I comprehend from which shore you sound your warning cry but isn't, on the other hand, race precisely a process of generalization by grouping people according to certain characteristics they share while ignoring other traits in which they differ?


They are not races but nationalities, and both nationalities are a mixture of various mongoloid races who have inhabited China and Japan in the past. Very true, and I don't think she claimed otherwise, as her posts about various subtypes that can be found in Japan show.


THERE IS NO AVERAGE "Chinese" nor "Japanese" There I differ because I think there is an average, indeed. Just imagine one could take the photos of all Chinese people and morph them into one picture. This average Chinese face would look very different compared to the German average, for example, and, presumably, would also differ somewhat from the Japanese average.

Of course, getting the pictures of more than a billion people might be a bit unpractical, but if one would randomly or representatively select only a few thousand from the whole pool, the created average face would still be almost identical.


as phenotypical differences differ widely from region to region, and even among populations in the same regions. A quick glance at any eastern Chinese city from Beijing from Hongkong will reveal a great diversity of phenotypes. Very well said, Sir, and thanks for the images. I enjoyed them as much as Aiko's selection from Japan.


Not all Chinese people look like the faces you just posted. I think she refers to the Han Chinese (see her first post) when she talks about "the Chinese" or "the typical Chinese." This might be a Chinese of Sinid type that maybe is particularly numerous or forms the core of the Chinese people? It's probably a type similar to what everybody imagines if one pictures a "typical Chinese" in one's mind.

Well, that's just my assumption. I only know little about China and the Han Chinese, so maybe you could be so kind to give us some background information?

moogas
Saturday, March 18th, 2006, 01:27 AM
I think she refers to the Han Chinese (see her first post) when she talks about "the Chinese" or "the typical Chinese." This might be a Chinese of Sinid type that maybe is particularly numerous or forms the core of the Chinese people? It's probably a type similar to what everybody imagines if one pictures a "typical Chinese" in one's mind.

Well, that's just my assumption. I only know little about China and the Han Chinese, so maybe you could be so kind to give us some background information?
Han Chinese is very diverse in itself. It's a cultural ethnicity (it's defined as those who use Chinese characters exclusively), not a genetic or kinship ethnicity. It's impossible to imagine a "typical Chinese" for Westerners because the Han Chinese people they see in their countries typically come from Cantonese-speaking areas (in far southern China). Cantonese people (who are also considered Han Chinese) make up only 5% of China's total population and are geographically isolated from other Chinese populations. The distance between Beijing and Hong Kong is more than 1000 miles! Hence these generations of "Japanese people look more Aryan/white/Europid than Chinese" is absolutely ridiculous, narrow-minded and without factual basis. It's as ridiculous as saying British people look more Aryan than Continental Europeans, because the British look more Aryan than the Spanish. Any German and Dane will have problems with that kind of logic.


Hitler said that the Japanese had strong Aryan influence, many considered that to be silly back then, but later Japanese anthropologists made it official that the people of Japan were somewhat proto-caucasoid.
This is absolutely fictional. There are actually far more percentage of Chinese with proto-caucasoid features than Japanese, it makes sense also because China is CLOSER to the Caucaus and West than Japan. During Tang Dynasty, the Chinese aristocracy commonly intermarried with the Persian royalty (who are Aryan). And Hitler never said "Japanese had strong Aryan influence"; Hitler considered the Japanese untermensch just like the Chinese and Mongolians. The Nazis later toned down some after they allied with the Japanese during WWII (which turned out to be a huge mistake considering Japan had no useful resources and also invaded Pearl Harbor).

Japanese anime is not representative of the Japanese people in their appearance; it instead represents their inferiority complex and their desires to become white.

Tryggvi
Saturday, March 18th, 2006, 03:22 AM
Han Chinese is very diverse in itself. It's a cultural ethnicity (it's defined as those who use Chinese characters exclusively), not a genetic or kinship ethnicity. It's impossible to imagine a "typical Chinese" for Westerners Not quite, that's at least my impression.

While I agree that a variety of types can be found within the Chinese people, the "typical Chinese" in my mind is definitely a Sinid, apparently with Central Sinid types dominating. By this I mean that these types are, even if only relatively, dominating, and that they stretch to some degree over the bulk of the Chinese people.

That's very similar to Germans. While a variety of types can be found within Germans, the "typical German" in my (and many people's mind) has Faelid features. That's because the Faelid type (and related UP types that by themselves or in combination with Nordid types result in a pseudo-faelid appearance) is an important type amongst the bulk of Germans that probably outweighs every other component that can be found within the German people. Take the Danish girl on our forum banner. She has a significant Faelid influence and thus "looks German." Arnold Schwarzenegger "looks German." It's, I believe, the Faelid component that makes people look "typically Germanic" in general.

Of course, there are Germans -- Dinarids, Alpinids, even Mediterranids -- that look nothing like this, like there are Chinese that look nothing like Central Sinids, but we shouldn't overlook the type of the forest because of some different plants that grow in it.

It's impossible for me to imagine a typical Brit, on the other hand, because Britain is composed of various types -- such as Nordid, Mediterranid, UP -- in not unequal proportions. There isn't really any type that dominates, as in the case of the Germans and, as I presume, the Chinese. One can still define the Brits negatively, however: a Faelid or a Dinarid is very unlikely to be British, like a Mediterranid is unlikely to be German (he "doesn't look German".)

You argue, however, that the Chinese are more like Brits than like Germans, as far as I understand you? That there is no type that really dominates? All I can say is that this doesn't correspond with my personal experiences which are, of course, more or less limited by the phenotypes of the Chinese immigrants I encounter in the West and which might, for various reasons, not be a racially representative sub-section of the Chinese people.


because the Han Chinese people they see in their countries typically come from Cantonese-speaking areas (in far southern China). Cantonese people (who are also considered Han Chinese) make up only 5% of China's total population and are geographically isolated from other Chinese populations. The distance between Beijing and Hong Kong is more than 1000 miles! Hence these generations of "Japanese people look more Aryan/white/Europid than Chinese" is absolutely ridiculous, narrow-minded and without factual basis. It's as ridiculous as saying British people look more Aryan than Continental Europeans, because the British look more Aryan than the Spanish. Any German and Dane will have problems with that kind of logic. I don't think that Japanese look more Europoid and I don't think the term "Aryan" is very useful when it comes to physical anthropology.

What I say is that the Japanese look, on average, different. One might be able to find the same types in both people but the proportions seem to differ. The type that Aiko described as "Native Islander" (Jomon) seems to be much more prevalent amongst the Japanese than amongst the Chinese. On average, I also get the impression that the skin of the Japanese is somewhat darker.

Cnooc
Saturday, March 18th, 2006, 04:17 AM
I comprehend from which shore you sound your warning cry but isn't, on the other hand, race precisely a process of generalization by grouping people according to certain characteristics they share while ignoring other traits in which they differ?


Yes, races and subraces can be generalized in that manner, but not nationalities. You must understand that a nationality says nothing of race, it is merely a cultural contrust (although it may be racial construct when dealing with completely different races). This holds true for especially large countries such as China, but even the countries of Europe as well. There is no average French, Italian, or German face. Certain stereotypes may come to mind when we think of a typical face for above nationalities, such as Erich Hartmann for an average German, but we would be forgetting the other important alpinid, cro-magnid constituents in Germany. For more well-defined ethnic groups, however, such as Anglo-Saxons, Bavarians, Padanians, Sicillians, etc, I believe there exists such a "face" that generalizes the average of those people.



Often the media have played a large role in shaping up "a typical face" for some nationalities, and most of the time, it is far from accurate. This is often the case with depictions of Chinese in western media. Traditionally, almost all the Chinese immigrants in western countries and Chinese whom westerners have worked with are from south China. This is due to the traditional openness and high capacity of the southern Chinese to engage in trade and commerce, and thus giving southern Chinese, especially the Cantonese, a much higher profile than other Chinese groups. The term Han is strictly a cultural construct, as it includes Chinese of diverse different racial backgrounds, such as the mon-Khmer Cantonese and Fujianese, and various sinid subraces. Like the Spaniards and Portuguese, the Chinese themselves are a people not averse to race-mixing. And this is evident throughout Chinese history, as the ancestors of Chinese, the Huaxia tribe, expanded from their base in the Yellow River valley in all directions (primarily south and east), absorbing and assimilating countless native tribes and nations. Conquest, colonization, and conversion of native peoples have been the hallmarks of the 5,000 years of Chinese civilization, and by process, non-Chinese(including those of different racial groups) become Han Chinese.

Chinese history is pockmarked with brutal, internecing wars of conquest (when competing Chinese states or noble families jockeyed for the mandate of Heaven), devastating barbarian invasions, famines, and catastrophic natural disasters(such as the periodic flooding of the Yellow and Yangtze rivers). During these periods, millions of Chinese would migrate en masse from the north to the south, colonizing, and mixing with the natives in the way. Most of native inhabitants of southern China the Yi, Wu, and Yueh (ancestor of modern Cantonese and Vietnamese) peoples often accepted Chinese culture to gain legitimacy among the Chinese states, and thus by doing so, they lost their "barbarian" status and became, essentially Han Chinese.




Very true, and I don't think she claimed otherwise, as her posts about various subtypes that can be found in Japan show.

There I differ because I think there is an average, indeed. Just imagine one could take the photos of all Chinese people and morph them into one picture. This average Chinese face would look very different compared to the German average, for example, and, presumably, would also differ somewhat from the Japanese average.

Of course, getting the pictures of more than a billion people might be a bit unpractical, but if one would randomly or representatively select only a few thousand from the whole pool, the created average face would still be almost identical.



One can morph all the pictures of Chinese into one, but the resulting picture would be hardly indicative of the Chinese population as a whole. In statistical analysis, sometimes taking the average isn't as accurate in representing data, as the median, especially when data falls all over the place.





Very well said, Sir, and thanks for the images. I enjoyed them as much as Aiko's selection from Japan.



no problems, there are more such examples in the Mongoloid section for your perusual.

some examples of nordsinids here:

http://forums.skadi.net/showpost.php?p=362593&postcount=76


From a phenotypical point of view, the Chinese are somewhat distinct from Japanese. Certain Japanese to tend to seem more europid than the continental east asians, but they have substantial malayid admixture as well, thus some Japanese resemble Philipinos or Malaysians than east Asians. Thus it is important to not generalize the Japanese population as well. Koreans, the other east asian nationality, tend to look distinct from Chinese as well, even northeast Chinese. They come across to me as having a much higher percentage nordsinid traits, such as elevated foreheads, high nose bridges, strong cheekbones and jaws (pictures below), than even northeast Chinese, although you must remember than most of the Chinese in the northeast are not natives to region, but rather, having immigrated there en masse from Shandong, and other more southerly Chinese provinces. Again, you can see for the difference for yourself in the mongoloid section.




Well, that's just my assumption. I only know little about China and the Han Chinese, so maybe you could be so kind to give us some background information?

I hope I have given you a good introduction, the preceding paragraphs.

Nomad
Wednesday, March 22nd, 2006, 07:48 PM
Koreans, the other east asian nationality, tend to look distinct from Chinese as well, even northeast Chinese. They come across to me as having a much higher percentage nordsinid traits, such as elevated foreheads, high nose bridges, strong cheekbones and jaws (pictures below), than even northeast Chinese, although you must remember than most of the Chinese in the northeast are not natives to region, but rather, having immigrated there en masse from Shandong, and other more southerly Chinese provinces. Again, you can see for the difference for yourself in the mongoloid section.



You've got it the wrong way around. Koreans have the flattest nose bridges and are much more infantile than the typical Han Chinese. The pretty boys you've posted aren't representative of Koreans as a people.

Nomad
Wednesday, March 22nd, 2006, 08:25 PM
Anyway--plenty of Koreans, Japanese and Chinese have high nose bridges, but I've seen enough of all three in my time to conclude that the latter two have higher noses in general.

Some examples of Chinese celebs with tall noses, it wouldn't be hard to find regular people who look similar.

Chen Kun
http://www.c-c-club.net/actor/chenkun.jpg
Chang Cheh
http://changchen.ciao.jp/images/img7.jpg
Yu Rong guang
http://www.dzwww.com/synr/dzft/W020050718304797032726.jpg

Euclides
Sunday, September 10th, 2006, 07:37 PM
1: Acta Anthropogenet. 1984;8(1-2):149-58.

Origins and affinities of Japanese viewed from cranial measurements.Hanihara K.

The origins and affinities of Japanese were analysed by means of cluster analysis using nine cranial measurements which were statistically selected as those representing a large proportion of the variance. As a result, the following hypotheses are proposed: Japanese are basically descendants of Jomon people, a fairly large amount of admixture between migrants from the Korean Peninsula and Jomon people took place during the Yayoi and protohistoric ages, particularly in western Japan, the migrants were close to north Asians in cranial morphology, Ainu and Ryukyus (Okinawan people) seem to be direct descendants of Jomon people without any or with very little influence of the migrants and geographical variations in modern Japanese quite likely are the result of differences in the magnitude of admixture.

Euclides
Sunday, September 10th, 2006, 07:38 PM
1: Am J Phys Anthropol. 1989 Jan;78(1):93-113.

Reflections on the face of Japan: a multivariate craniofacial and odontometric perspective.Brace CL, Brace ML, Leonard WR.
Museum of Anthropology, University of Michigan, Ann Arbor 48109.

Craniofacial variables for modern and prehistoric Japanese were subjected to multivariate analysis to test the relationships of the people of Japan with mainland Asian and Oceanic samples. The modern Japanese are tied to Koreans, Chinese, Southeast Asians, and the Yayoi rice agriculturalists who entered Japan in 300 B.C. Together they make up a Mainland-Asia cluster of related populations. The prehistoric Jomon foragers, the original inhabitants of the Japanese archipelago, are the direct ancestors of the modern Ainu, who made a recognizable contribution to the warrior class--the Samurai--of feudal Japan. Together, they are associated with Polynesians and Micronesians in a Jomon-Pacific cluster of related populations. Jomon-to-Ainu tooth size reduction proceeded at the same rate as that observable in the post-Pleistocene elsewhere in the Old World.

gin_tonic
Wednesday, October 11th, 2006, 01:50 PM
Sorry to post another post about something else so quickly after the first one, but these collages posted on attachment with this post are photos of male adult film stars which I got from my friend’s collection.

Anyway the main thing I wanted to discuss was... That... since a few years ago, I can see differences between the looks of Japanese and Chinese people, therefore I became fascinated by the reason behind it...And from that period onwards I am determined to bialy think they are different from Chinese hence they did not come from china as many chinese suggests.

I also got addicted to Chinese history, on movements and migration, but more on the artistic virtues of Chinese history… I looked at many sculptures and paintings from ancient china… I also studied about other cultures but not quite as extensively...

About Japanese people looking different, I sometimes spot the differences in faces a few years ago.. But is confused and know not enough to determine... Therefore can and did easily change my mind when I see other Japanese which look different to the difference I once thought they had, or have similarity to a Chinese person I have seen etc.

Then due to great fortunately, after quite a few years of wondering about those issues and to express knowledgably of those differences in the sculpture’s faces or with modern east asians, I have came across this forum where much more explanation are given to the different type of looks east Asians process. And the reason or origin behind it.

From the desciptions of the origins of the different looks of east asia in context to all the ancient sculpture of Chinese I have saw , I gathered that the sculptures had mostly and many Tungid look and also mostly and many northsinid looks.

Obviously due to my internal interest on ancient Chinese art I have more ordeals and vested interests to know what type of look ancient Chinese have... But on the other hand I am equally as interested in what different look Chinese people have; and finally Japanese and Koreans… Because the way they look like may have connections to the context of ancient chinese… in different aspects such as movements etc…

However my personal beliefs for many years are that Koreans and Japanese came from mainland Asia way before advance civilisation has developed in china. And sources suggest that many early south Korean and Japanese come from the Yangtze river of china.. And that a Japanese reporter who saw some of the modern day groups of people which was of the original inhabitants of that area 2000 years ago look much like modern Japanese people.
But after that I have gathered that they also came from the north due to linguistic.. But in my opinion linguistic is only of minor importance as it can be imposed on a group of people or community.



I don’t think I have much problem at all in seeing who is a Chinese, Japanese or Korean, although I would say the difference between a Chinese and a Korean is at times much harder to see. But I think Japanese really do look quite different to the Chinese people in general... Many Japanese people I have talked to; this is because of jomon people influence, however in my own interpretation I think a jomon influenced japanese person have in looks much more in common but not quite the same with a Chinese than a typical yayoi or later period Japanese person , if they came from koree.

The collage of those male is the typical differences which I think is between a Japanese person and Chinese… I think to emphasis the point on my view of the major differences mostly come from the eyes as they are very sharp and hawk like …It is very distinct and I have not yet seen them in Koreans or Siberians or Mongolians and Eskimos etc.

That’s the major atmosphere of the difference, but obviously there are other points too.

But I think if they had bigger ones I then could then see not as much and sometimes even no differences.
But that is because I am still not pro enough on studying different types of looks.

I am relatively uncomfortable when I see what I call qin dynasty warriors tendencies in some of these males … As I cannot accept that they resemble, therefore determine to find other differences, which I successfully have found.
However if one individual look similar to a warrior , I paste the image right next to it.
Please confirm if these similarities are real or if they are real, then he will look different to the modern person?
But privately I think that this is due to inter-marriage between different groups of people which did not come from qin china;
which yield a look more similar but not exactly like those qin soldiers???

Can you tell me what kind of look these males have and whether you will find it in china and most importantly ancient china??

And also about the qin warrior influenced Japanese faces?? Is this just an illusion caused by inter-marriage of certain groups of people who has little or northing to do with ancient Chinese (qin)…?

By this I also mean warring kingdoms, yan, qi, han, song, wei, chu, etc kingdoms north of the Yangtze and also the proceeding (han) and (tang) dynasty

I think my best explanation to why tungid faces was found in some sculptures of han china 2000 years ago is the fact that all the citizens of these warring kingdoms have adopted the old Chinese cultures around 5000 years ago when many individuals were of different ethnicity and by the formation of han they all automatically became a han.. And movements to the economic centres meant that tungid and different type of northsinid faces can be seen in the sculptures.

PS: I personally think I am rather nosy and rude on asking at what different look Japanese people have and even rather selfish due to my own vested interest to the context of ancient Chinese peoples… But I am genuinely interested. Too on the other hand, but also it is really none of my business as I am not a Japanese person.

gin_tonic
Wednesday, October 11th, 2006, 01:57 PM
:P sorry the attachments i wanted to make together but somehow i can't so i upload the remianing photos

PS:sorry the same error occured:(

gin_tonic
Friday, November 3rd, 2006, 12:20 PM
Thanks Agrippa!!

I think that Chinese minority ethnics also look like chinese ethnicities! I think I’ll try to find the photo of those celebrities and paste them next to each other. , although I can’t find all of ‘lookalikes’ for all of them. The similarities is very shocking as these individuals live miles away from each other..

I’m also fascinated to know if there are ‘male and female versions of specific looks ‘lol’ Lol.. is it actually true?
Although I can’t always find a male or female version of them!! or do males always look different to females? Lol

I find it very interesting that male look like females.. becos many of the time male always look different to females.. !!! haha!


In the photo ‘chinese celeb collages’ is the 3rd female is tungide faced influenced? Also do Chinese ‘celebs (1) and (2) and Chinese waitress look tungide?

Is ‘japanese dude’ also tungide faced lol… and is the Chinese celebrity a female version of that kind of look?? And is the general facial similarities of the different sexes accurate? Lol.. is Chinese woman and Chinese student also tungide faced?
Also the collage of Japanese males.. although they are not so handsome… what type of face do they have?

In the photo ‘cn male and cn male and female’ are the people in those photos mainly northsinide and tungid influenced faces?And with every kind of faces (i.e tungide , north-middle-south sinid etc)
there are ‘ugly and ‘beautiful’ individuals … is that correct?

PS: i posted in the thread 'sinoid spectrum of east asia.. but it doesn't somehow the post disappeared.

gin_tonic
Monday, November 13th, 2006, 03:48 PM
Thanks Agrippa!

I was wondering whether you know much in general about the Japanese peoples? Even though im not a Japanese ; im generally very keen and interested to know more about the way they look and if you know some and much or slight about their migratory history etc etc!?

I use to be so fasinated about Japanese people, becuz I think in general they are a very beautiful peoples.
I’ve seen many Japanese people abroad and at home... and I think they do look very different to the general chinese people.

But now im much more fasinated about the Chinese peoples! hahaha

In my personal view in the past and even to some certain degree now.. I think they are more beautiful than the Chinese people I have seen; at least at an visual sense.

But to me visual impact is only of secondary importance as I believe a person’s true beauty lies on their nature.

i.e their personalities and behaviour is much more important than their facial characteristsics!!!

Lol ; becos I think you can’t help with the way you look !?Even though you can change with surgeory etc to transform yourself into one of the most beautifuls.

But with personalities I think you can always be a nice and kind and polite &sympathethic person at least in the surface.

Correct me if im wrong!! Becos I know I am as:

I’ve met many rude / and or selfish or annoying or combination of this and that in terms of their irritating behaviour!

I use to be fasinated by and even now.. at why all the japanese people I’ve seen in person &tv dramas &photos etc have very pale skintone ..
I use to think they are always paler than Chinese people. I think that it is almost always true in terms of photos where Japanese people are paler than Chinese people ,.. but not always true when you see them in person.

A friend which study photography once told me , under the same circumstances a person always look not as pale in a photo than in real life.

But obviously that is not true becuz I have seen very very pale Chinese people.
Even though I think in general , the Japanese people of England is paler than the general Chinese people of England.

Agrippa
Tuesday, November 14th, 2006, 12:01 AM
I was wondering whether you know much in general about the Japanese peoples?

Whats 'much'? More than the average European yes, more than specialists on the issue or Japanese themselves: Of course not ;)


if you know some and much or slight about their migratory history etc etc!?

Yes, already wrote about that partly.


In my personal view in the past and even to some certain degree now.. I think they are more beautiful than the Chinese people I have seen; at least at an visual sense.

Neither the Japanese nor the Chinese are one block, I'd say it depends on variant + individual, not to forget environmental factors like better living conditions of Japanese, medical treatment and things like braces etc.


i.e their personalities and behaviour is much more important than their facial characteristsics!!!

Body and mind, both is important. But the personality is more important in general, yes.


Lol ; becos I think you can’t help with the way you look !?Even though you can change with surgeory etc to transform yourself into one of the most beautifuls.

Hardly. We are not that far with cosmetic surgeries.


But with personalities I think you can always be a nice and kind and polite &sympathethic person at least in the surface.

Right. The "nice character" of a person can be as faked as its face.


A friend which study photography once told me , under the same circumstances a person always look not as pale in a photo than in real life.

Depends largely on lighting but oh well...

For the Chinese a Nordsinid and Suedsinid-Palaemongolid will hardly have always the same skin tone...

http://forums.skadi.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=86139&d=1163432923

Those are Satsuma-type Japanese, so rather Tungid-Palaemongolid, especially the girls.

Spjabork
Wednesday, November 15th, 2006, 07:28 AM
Those are Satsuma-type Japanese, so rather Tungid-Palaemongolid, especially the girls.
Is this to say that tungid and palaemongolid did (or in a way still do) form a unity? But they are at the opposite ends of the "spectre".

This would mean the sinids once had been a wedge, splitting them in two.

Similar to the "Arians" in Europe (i.e. the eastern part of Eurasia), who mixed up and confused the "palae"-euro-races, geographically.

Or does it mean Satsuma is a tungid-palaemongolid mixed form?? Maybe the face from the former, the body from the latter?

I feel among the Japanese some could be (mis)taken for Philippinos, many like Chinese, and some are unique, that means you are sure they must be Japanese and can't be anything else.

Agrippa
Wednesday, November 15th, 2006, 08:41 PM
Is this to say that tungid and palaemongolid did (or in a way still do) form a unity? But they are at the opposite ends of the "spectre".

This would mean the sinids once had been a wedge, splitting them in two.

No. But Korea and Japan was more special. Over Korea came both Tungids (which seem to have brought the Japanese language too), later and with them came Sinid elements. In meantime and before of that Palaemongolids came from the South, they entered both Korea and Japan from the coastal areas and islands. So all this three movements of the different types met in Korea and Japan, with Japan having more Palaemongolid, Korea more Tungid components.

Especially under the poor peasantry the same happened like in Europe with Alpinisation, which resulted in a peasant type being more Tungid and/or Palaemongolid than Sinid and Yakonid, which was more common in the upper class both because of social selection and the fact that many Sinids came as more educated and socially important people from China and Korea to Japan, worked in the administration, intellectuals, warriors, craftsmen, specialists of all kinds from early times on (positive Sinid social selection came to Japan from China and Korea).
So the more reduced-infantilised Japanese peasants inherited more Tungo-Palaemongolid than other traits because of later selective processes and contraselection.


Or does it mean Satsuma is a tungid-palaemongolid mixed form?? Maybe the face from the former, the body from the latter?

In fact somewhat smaller than both original forms quite often, but in general you are right, more gracile Palaemongolid but short legged Tungid etc. Its really the result of peasant-type selection.

Euclides
Sunday, December 31st, 2006, 10:16 PM
Now the pics from Japan, Left is Yayoi (korean/chinese) and Right seems to be Jomon (Native islanders) Japanese, though her face
is still intermediate between ainu and chinese faces.
http://forums.skadi.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=51910&stc=1&d=1140219860
Can you see the similarity of Yayoi Japanese to Chinese on the above figure? But do you think they can be like northern japanese?


The ''aiunu'' girl on the right has not only a intermediate
face between ainu and chinese faces, but her body is much more Yayoi (gracile) than Ainu ( robust).

teutonicscult
Tuesday, March 30th, 2010, 07:54 AM
tagaki Taisuke, Born in Tosa, Home minister, Leader of Liberal Party, Precursor of LDP
http://forums.skadi.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=51917&stc=1&d=1140220535
He is a southern japanese in Shikoku. Likely to be Jomon japanese.

Wow That's a very leptorhine nose. Never new Japanese have such long and thin faces.