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View Full Version : Is Borreby the Most Common Racial Type in Germany?



Prodigal Son
Wednesday, October 1st, 2003, 04:53 PM
TSo it is a stereotypical type, and perhaps those who are of that Phenotype are seen as quintessential Germans by the common observer.

I don't know where you get your data from. According to Coon, Borreby is the most common type in Germany.

Loki
Wednesday, October 1st, 2003, 05:17 PM
I don't know where you get your data from. According to Coon, Borreby is the most common type in Germany.

A few minutes ago you said Coon's theories should be binned as they are wrong.... lol.

Besides I think most of us (except you, apparently) know that Borreby is only common in northern Germany. Also, cite your source for this Coon quote, please. When you are done, I will quote Coon on Ladogans ;) :D

Polak
Wednesday, October 1st, 2003, 05:57 PM
I think Coon said that Falid was the most common type in Germany. And it is.

Pure Borrebys, according to Coon, were only found on some islands in the Baltic.

Allenson
Wednesday, October 1st, 2003, 06:11 PM
I think Coon said that Falid was the most common type in Germany. And it is.

Pure Borrebys, according to Coon, were only found on some islands in the Baltic.

I'll have to look but I seem to remember that Coon didn't really recognize the Falid type. I might be worng here but I don't think it was in his scheme. He might have paid a little 'lip service' to it in his photo section under "Nordics altered by NW European UP Mixture".

Specifically the middle two fellows:

http://www.fikas.no/~sprocket/snpa/index2.htm

I'm not convinced that it is a Nord x UP though....

Vojvoda
Wednesday, October 1st, 2003, 06:17 PM
I'll have to look but I seem to remember that Coon didn't really recognize the Falid type. I might be worng here but I don't think it was in his scheme. He might have paid a little 'lip service' to it in his photo section under "Nordics altered by NW European UP Mixture".

Specifically the middle two fellows:

http://www.fikas.no/~sprocket/snpa/index2.htm

I'm not convinced that it is a Nord x UP though....

Off topic, excuse me:)

I wonder why the website dalonord posted doesn't contain Coon's "Nordics of Danubian predominance" found on the "legion europa" website?

http://www.legioneuropa.org/Racediv/CSCoon/Papers/p28.htm

Loki
Wednesday, October 1st, 2003, 06:23 PM
Off topic, excuse me:)

I wonder why the website dalonord posted doesn't contain Coon's "Nordics of Danubian predominance" found on the "legion europa" website?



Perhaps because it is not the Bible, and thus cannot be expected to contain everything about the Nordish races. They (Dagfinn, Jarle & Vegard) usually post stuff to the site as they get the time. Not even the entire Races of Europe has been posted as yet. I hardly think it is any sort of conspiracy, as some would suggest.

Vojvoda
Wednesday, October 1st, 2003, 06:32 PM
Perhaps because it is not the Bible, and thus cannot be expected to contain everything about the Nordish races. They (Dagfinn, Jarle & Vegard) usually post stuff to the site as they get the time. Not even the entire Races of Europe has been posted as yet. I hardly think it is any sort of conspiracy, as some would suggest.

I don't think it's a conspiracy either, I mean they have "Neo-Danubians" so why not have "Danubian Nordids" as well?

Prodigal Son
Wednesday, October 1st, 2003, 07:22 PM
A few minutes ago you said Coon's theories should be binned as they are wrong.... lol.

When and where did I say that?


Besides I think most of us (except you, apparently) know that Borreby is only common in northern Germany. Also, cite your source for this Coon quote, please. When you are done, I will quote Coon on Ladogans ;) :D

Coon's ideas about so-called Ladogans have been refuted by 50 years of solid anthropological work; I am not so sure about his idead regarding Borrebies. One thing I do know for a fact is that Nordics do not predominate in Germany. There is a trend among Nordicists here to "pinkwash", or perhaps even to "dolio-wash" Germany, painting it as an area that is racially indistinguishable from Scandinavia. This whole notion, is of course utterly ridiculous. Germans are a predominantly UP population.

Loki
Wednesday, October 1st, 2003, 07:35 PM
When and where did I say that?

Here:

http://www.forums.skadi.net/showthread.php?t=3710&page=3


One thing I do know for a fact is that Nordics do not predominate in Germany. There is a trend among Nordicists here to "pinkwash", or perhaps even to "dolio-wash" Germany, painting it as an area that is racially indistinguishable from Scandinavia. This whole notion, is of course utterly ridiculous. Germans are a predominantly UP population.

Nobody here, as far as I can remember, said that Germany was indistiguishable from Scandinavia. Germany's most important element is the Falish type, whereas the Gothic and Tronder types are important and typical of Sweden and Norway (other types exist there too).

So you are attacking views which have never been uttered here, in effect ;)

However, on the other hand you are also guilty of oversimplifying Germany's racial history and composition. And you might be guilty of "dolio-washing" or "pink-washing" Russian and other Slavic populations yourself ;)

Prodigal Son
Wednesday, October 1st, 2003, 07:45 PM
Here:

http://www.forums.skadi.net/showthread.php?t=3710&page=3

"snub-nosed Ladogan fantasies" is an insult now? I think you're overly sensetive :)




Germany's most important element is the Falish type

What's your source for this claim?


So you are attacking views which have never been uttered here, in effect ;)

Not so. I've seen plenty of people here make the claim that Germany is predominanly Nordic, but I am not going to go "thread-hunting" right now.


However, on the other hand you are also guilty of oversimplifying Germany's racial history and composition.

I don't really think saying that Germans are predominantly of UP stock is an oversimplification.


And you might be guilty of "dolio-washing" or "pink-washing" Russian and other Slavic populations yourself ;)

No, I am just setting the record straight. Many people here seem to think that Russians look like Lapps or Samoyeds.

superonio
Wednesday, October 1st, 2003, 08:57 PM
I think the 3 most common types in Germany are Borreby/Falish, Keltic-Nordic and Alpine

Most of Germany is brachycephalic (upper paleolithic). The longest headed part of Germany is the west (near the border with the Benelux countries), this is a mesocephalic area.

South-Germany is alpine.

North-Germany is dominated by Borreby/Falish. I group them together because I dont think there is much difference between the 2.

Its funny that the most Nordic part of Germany (the West) is not the most blond part. The Nordic type found in West-Germany is of the Keltic-Nordic variety (darkhaired Nordics).

The blondest part of Germany is the part that borders Denmark, in this area blond Borrebies and Falians dominate (blond upper paleolithics).

Allenson
Wednesday, October 1st, 2003, 09:28 PM
Not so. I've seen plenty of people here make the claim that Germany is predominanly Nordic, but I am not going to go "thread-hunting" right now.

I don't really think saying that Germans are predominantly of UP stock is an oversimplification.


Neither do I. Falids, Borrebys and Alpines are all considered UP

No, I am just setting the record straight. Many people here seem to think that Russians look like Lapps or Samoyeds.

Don't worry, she's gone.

Neither do I. Falids, Borrebys and Alpines are all considered UP


Sure, those who are ill-informed and who harbour anti-Slav agendas. I'll go out on a limb here and wager that the majority of our 'regulars' are quite aware of the racial state of Russia and the other Slavic countries....due in large part to the 'Slavic surge' that has occured on any one of the racial/physical anthropolgy forums and list groups that have sprung up online over the past few years....which you have certainly played a part in. It has been interesting for me to read through the material that has been supplied and to learn about our kin to the east.

Loki
Wednesday, October 1st, 2003, 09:36 PM
Hello superonio!

How did you hear about this board? Tell us a little about yourself please ;)

Loki
Wednesday, October 1st, 2003, 09:45 PM
Sure, those who are ill-informed and who harbour anti-Slav agendas. I'll go out on a limb here and wager that the majority of our 'regulars' are quite aware of the racial state of Russia and the other Slavic countries....due in large part to the 'Slavic surge' that has occured on any one of the racial/physical anthropolgy forums and list groups that have sprung up online over the past few years....which you have certainly played a part in. It has been interesting for me to read through the material that has been supplied and to learn about our kin to the east.

Very true post dalonord. I will be very honest with you when I say anti-Germanism is much more common, even on these very boards, than anti-Slavicism. Proof of this is that when one even tries to discuss Germanic racial trends, then these guys will come chirp in, with all their various 25367 aliases (who account to only 3 people generally), and attempt to ruin the whole discussion.

Johnny Reb
Wednesday, October 1st, 2003, 11:51 PM
Why was Superonio banned?

cosmocreator
Thursday, October 2nd, 2003, 12:17 AM
Why was Superonio banned?


Yes. I banned him. Superonio, cbvnm and Julius_Caesar are the same person. You're not allowed to use multiple identities here.

Johnny Reb
Thursday, October 2nd, 2003, 12:24 AM
Fair enough. Is CBVNM still around, or was his account banned as well due to his infraction? He probably just wanted to start over without saying anything dumb.

Nordgau
Thursday, October 2nd, 2003, 12:42 AM
At least "Superonio shows some promise". :D

cosmocreator
Thursday, October 2nd, 2003, 12:42 AM
Fair enough. Is CBVNM still around, or was his account banned as well due to his infraction? He probably just wanted to start over without saying anything dumb.


cbvnm was put on probation. His posts were moderated. When Loki found out about the multiple identities, he banned cbvnm too. If he comes back with another identity, personally I would give him another chance. But if he starts posting the same thing over and over and over, he will be banned for good.

Gladstone
Thursday, October 2nd, 2003, 12:48 AM
At least "Superonio shows some promise". :D
Don't they all.;)

Nordgau
Thursday, October 2nd, 2003, 12:55 AM
No. Our Godfather Cosmocreator already "has begun to earn respect". ;)

cosmocreator
Thursday, October 2nd, 2003, 01:08 AM
No. Our Godfather Cosmocreator already "has begun to earn respect". ;)


That's funny. I have the highest number of reputation points and I was the one against it.

Polak
Thursday, October 2nd, 2003, 02:53 AM
Well, Cbvnm seems to have learned a few things since becoming Superonio.

Pity he got banned just when his enlightenement kicked in.


In regards to Coon and Germany...

Cooon really didn't make himself clear when it came to this, but if you read his book extremely carefully, you will see that he doesn't actually say most of Germany is populated by Borrebys.

What he says is that the basic stock in north and central Germany is Borreby altered by Nordic admixture.

On the other hand, he says the southwest is Keltic Nordic with some Alpine and Dinaric, while Bavaria is Alpine to the core (which I don't agree with because I've been there many times).

He makes it clear that real Borrebys are only found on one island as a population and as individuals everywhere else.

To me this is saying mot of Germany is Falish, without actually using the term.

cosmocreator
Thursday, October 2nd, 2003, 03:46 AM
while Bavaria is Alpine to the core (which I don't agree with because I've been there many times).


Maybe it was different when he was there. Lot can change in 30 years.

Prodigal Son
Thursday, October 2nd, 2003, 04:48 AM
Very true post dalonord. I will be very honest with you when I say anti-Germanism is much more common, even on these very boards, than anti-Slavicism.

I certainly hope this is not directed at me. I have never made any anti-Germanic remarks here, or anywhere else for that matter. If you think I have, then you're mistaken. I was simply pointing out that its very common for Nordicists of germanic ancestry to "pinkwash" or "Nordicize", if you will, all Germanic-speaking populations, with no regard whatsoever for the facts. I've heard absolutely ridiculous claims here, such as "Austrians are a predominantly blond people". The same person used pictures of Brighton Beach Jews as "evidence" of her hypothesis that "Russians are muds." As for your claim that anti-Germanism is more common than anti-Slavism here, that's pure hyperbole. I've yet to see anyone here call any Germanic-speaking ethnicity "muds" or advocate their genocide.


Proof of this is that when one even tries to discuss Germanic racial trends, then these guys will come chirp in, with all their various 25367 aliases (who account to only 3 people generally), and attempt to ruin the whole discussion.

Again, I hope you're not referring to me. I am sorry if you feel like I've "ruined the discussion"; I am simply skeptical when people make claims regarding the racial composition of an ethnicity, especially the Germans, without backing their claims up with any evidence. As far as I am aware, Upper Paleolithic influences are more important in Germany as a whole than are Nordic influences.

Glenlivet
Thursday, October 2nd, 2003, 07:00 PM
I believe that low-skulled, Western European (Atlantic), (West)-Nordids are from an Upper Paleolithic origin. But if I am not mistaken Nordids were formed in the Neolithic. A depigmented Mediterranid (Insular type) does not look Nordid. Furthermore, Phenotypes within one Swedish family differ from one and another, where the son in the family is e.g. a gracile "Götatyp" and the daughter a robust, Faloid squarish-faced, "Västmanlandstyp". These folk stocks in Sweden were at least distinctive enough, 60-70 years ago when they were studied, and they are named after the predominating type.

Borreby is not Nordid, and if I am not mistaken it is used for slightly different types, West Norwegian blond bracycephals (used by Arbo to include all blond brachycephals), some higher-skulled Baltids and Belgian Borreby (the same or related to the Walloon type?) types etc. The Danish anthropologist Kaj Birket-Smith used the term Borreby as an Ice Age race. It is thus a matter of paleoanthropology.

Some authors say that Falid is Nordid, and if not that, the type have the closest Phenotype to Nordids, with stronger chin, broader face, shorter and wider nose, smaller deep-set eyes, overall more archaic features, very strong browridges, big body with broad shoulders etc. Eyes approach the light colours, perhaps more gray eyes than blue. Hair is blond (with a minority who have chestnut brown), but more reddish. Skin is more rosy than the Nordid. So, the type is more or less described as a bigger, say overgrown Nordid.

Falid is one of my favourite types, so here two good links about it in German:

http://www.white-history.com/earlson/fal001.htm (leiblich)
http://www.white-history.com/earlson/fal002.htm (seelisch)

The part about the mental characteristics is of course more pseudo-scientific. It can still be interesting to read it.

Germany is predominantly Nordid, but not if narrowly defined to the very localised Göta type. Many Norwegians have Trönder features with stronger cheekbones and surprisingly enough, a lot of Falid types. Most are of course blond and blue-yed with a very fair and pinkish complexion.

Common folks with an untrained eye for Europid types will first look at the pigmentation. Most North Europeans are more blond than brunet, regardless of facial and head shape. The same goes for South Europeans, but with the opposite situation, more brunet than blond. This is why we have blond Dinarid (especially as children) and Alpinids, and even darker and lighter Nordids. The blondest (just meaning the hair here, not overall blondism) populations in Europe are probably not even the most Nordid.

All Germanics have different Nordid types, but some are more common in Sweden, others in Austria, and again others in the Netherlands. Migration patterns can explain most elements. The racial condition of Northern Netherlands is similar to Eastern England, and both are very Nordid lands, still not Göta types. German and English Nordids look more like how Anglo-Saxon is defined. Nordenstreng thought "Svea typ" (same as Trönder), although Nordenstreng claimed that Nordid in England is Göta type. That has not been what I have observed. However, I have not seen Northeastern England, which I think is very Nordid region, and I am pretty sure that Loki think the same.

The bracycephalisation process of Southern Germany and Austria is only from the Middle Ages. It is probably a brachycephalised Falid, and these types are fairly blond. Such types are also found in Switzerland. A French and Italian Alpinid is not the same as a German. These are only morphological-typological approaches, and population genetics is probably more useful to find actual relations between two people or populations. So we should speak of Phenotypes, rather than actual Europid sub-races.

Coon is of the belief that Brünn is an important element in Germany. Brünns share many features with Falids. The formation of the type is probably from a similar, or perhaps from the same origin. Falids may look a bit more Nordid. Those with a Brünn Phenotype in Ireland usually have more Mediterranid strains.

"The races of Europe derived in this manner comprise: the Palaeo-Atlantid, the Nordid (with North-Atlantid, Faelish, and Scando-Nordid subraces), the Taurid (with Dinarid, Armenid, and Mtebid subraces), the Carpathid, the Berid, the West-Mediterranean, the East-Mediterranean, the Volgid, the East-Baltid, the East-Alpine, the West-Alpine, and the Scando-Lappid.

Each of the above races or subraces is generally predominant in a specific region of Europe. Ancient and modern migrations, however, have spread many of these races outside of their original homeland. Consequently, each European nation or people is characterized by its own unique anthropological structur - i.e., frequency distribution of the various races and subraces. These structures were briefly outlined and described for the different nations and peoples of Europe.

The origins of the races of Europe can be traced back to the end of the last Ice Age and the beginning of the succeeding Mesolithic period. The retreating ice cover opened up for settlement new areas of Europe. Changing climate, expanding area of settlement, and more varied habitat provided the selective forces for differentiating and molding the living races of Europe.
The descendants of the West European and North African Cro-Magnid race followed the retreating ice into western and northern Europe. The earliest migrants were the Palaeo-Atlantids, followed by the Faelish and Scando-Nordids. The depigmentation of the Faelish and Scando-Nordid races appears to have occurred as an adaptation to the cold and cloudy climate of northern Europe."

I classified our friend Milesian as Paleo-Atlantid (same as Old-Atlantid, related to the Norwegian and Swedish Tydals).

The Races and Peoples of Europe (1977) by Bertil Lundman

Prodigal Son
Thursday, October 2nd, 2003, 07:08 PM
IAll Germanics have different Nordid types, but some are more common in Sweden, others in Austria, and again others in the Netherlands.

Do you think that Austrians and Swiss Germans are predominantly blonde and/or Nordid? If so, can you provide some evidence of this?

Glenlivet
Thursday, October 2nd, 2003, 07:17 PM
It depends how you define blond. There are certainly many Austrian (Falids) and Swiss (more similar to Dutch or Northwest German Nordids) Nordids (in the broader sense of the word). After all, the term is a convention (Nordids procreating with Nordids have more or less Nordid offsprings, so it does not mean that anyone can have a Nordid offspring!).

Germany 31.80% blonde, 14.05% brunette, 54.15% mixed.
Austria 19.79% blonde, 23.17% brunette, 57.04% mixed.
Switzerland 11.10% blonde, 25.70% brunette, 61.40% mixed.

THE GEOGRAPHICAL POSITION OF ANCIENT TEUTONDOM. THE STONE AGE OF PREHISTORIC TEUTONDOM by Viktor Rydberg

German anthropologist Ilse Schwidetzky also put Switzerland as a predominantly Nordid country.