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Tryggvi
Monday, January 23rd, 2006, 04:37 AM
... quite gerontomorphic. :)In what respect? :)

SouthernBoy
Monday, January 23rd, 2006, 04:43 AM
In what respect? :)
His facial bones are very refined and prominent; his nose, his cheek-bones, his jaw, his forehead, and his facial shape are quite ontogenically-developed.

I would call him an archetypal Europoid. :)

Tryggvi
Monday, January 23rd, 2006, 05:11 AM
His facial bones are very refined and prominent; his nose, his cheek-bones, his jaw, his forehead, and his facial shape are quite ontogenically-developed. Ontogeny towards gerontomorphosis. There is an easier English word for it and it is called ageing. :P

I'm kidding here but I'm trying to help people who are not as familiar with scientific terms to understand what you mean. Gerontomorphosis is the opposite of neoteny or paedomorphosis. Development of (or towards) specialized adult structures in individuals (or in populations). The key term is specialization. Assuming the traits you described are an adult specialization in the course of the biological development (ontogeny) of North-Atlantids -- their gerontomorphosis -- as you stated, for what sort of specialization are they needed? What purpose do they serve? That was my question. :)


I would call him an archetypal Europoid. :) That claim shall remain unchallenged. ;)

SouthernBoy
Monday, January 23rd, 2006, 05:23 AM
Ontogeny towards gerontomorphosis. There is an easier English word for it and it is called ageing. :P Would I be as spectacular a psuedo-intellectual if I used words like "ageing"? :D

Assuming the traits you described are an adult specialization in the course of the biological development (ontogeny) of North-Atlantids -- their gerontomorphosis -- as you stated, for what sort of specialization are they needed? What purpose do they serve? They are most likely the result of "sexual selection"; I am less well-read into the evolutionary-processes behind certain traits as are some members though. ;)

Tryggvi
Monday, January 23rd, 2006, 05:49 AM
Would I be as spectacular a psuedo-intellectual if I used words like "ageing"? :D Ha-ha, no, but you would be better understood. ;)


They are most likely the result of "sexual selection"; I am less well-read into the evolutionary-processes behind certain traits as are some members though. ;) When you wrote about gerontomorphosis -- a term that's not used often and it was, besides, an excellent observation -- immediately the warning bells began to ring in my head. Wouldn't you agree that evolutionary progress is paedomorphic? Aren't Asians and Europeans more paedomorphic than Negroes and Australids? Isn't the sapiens more paedomorphic than the erectus? How have vertebrates been formed from sea squirts if not through paedomorphosis? Gerontomorphosis, on the other hand, cannot bring evolutionary progress, for it never leads to radical changes and departures. It can only carry an already specialized evolutionary line one more step further in the same direction--as a rule into the dead end of the maze....

Sexual selection is an excellent point. I think it's rather undisputed that European males tend towards selection based on neoteny (the Asian female) while women do the opposite (the black male). Why? Maybe you have some thoughts.... it's a bit off-topic anyway but it popped into my mind.

SouthernBoy
Monday, January 23rd, 2006, 06:28 AM
When you wrote about gerontomorphosis -- a term that's not used often and it was, besides, an excellent observation -- immediately the warning bells began to ring in my head. Wouldn't you agree that evolutionary progress is paedomorphic?No; phylogenetic-progression is the result of neomorphism, which can result from either paedomorphisis or gerontomorphisis. :)

Aren't Asians and Europeans more paedomorphic than Negroes and Australids? Isn't the sapiens more paedomorphic than the erectus? How have vertebrates been formed from sea squirts if not through paedomorphosis? The process known as "hominidization" is largely the result of paedomorphisis; there have been several important traits that have been the result of gerontomorphisis though.

Gerontomorphosis, on the other hand, cannot bring evolutionary progress, for it never leads to radical changes and departures. It can only carry an already specialized evolutionary line one more step further in the same direction--as a rule into the dead end of the maze.... This is arguable; has the human specialization into larger-brains been a "dead end"?

Mental "ontogeny [does] reflect phylogeny"; thus gerontomorphisis, while the opposite is correct for the vast-majority of human traits.

Sexual selection is an excellent point. I think it's rather undisputed that European males tend towards selection based on neoteny (the Asian female) while women do the opposite (the black male). Why? Maybe you have some thoughts.... it's a bit off-topic anyway but it popped into my mind. There is an unconcious association of physically-paedomorphic traits to mentally-paedomorphic traits; it has been shown in some studies that men prefer women who are less intelligent than themselves. The opposite perception is true of gerontomorphic traits.

The vast majority of sexual-dimorphism can be delineated as thus: female forms are generally more paedomorphic; male forms are generally more gerontomorphic.

The disproportionalities in interracial mate-selection also reflect the levels of t ("testosterone") in the respective populations; sub-Saharan African populations have the highest levels of t (thus: "masculine") and East Asian populations have the lowest levels of t (thus: "feminine"). Hormonal-constitution is itself a form of gerontomorphisis though. ;)

Dr. Solar Wolff
Monday, January 23rd, 2006, 07:54 AM
Paedomophism and neoteny are the retention of juvenile characteristics. Gerontomorphism is the opposite, the mature characteristics or, as it is sometimes used, the retention of hyper-male characteristics such a bony crests. An example is the paedomorphism/neoteny skull of a juvenile chimp as compared to the gerontomorphic skull of the adult chimp. Anthropologists have sometimes argued that human evolution used neoteny as its basis for producing a generalized primate. To show this they compared the skull of an adult human to the juvenile and adult chimp and concluded that humans were more similar to the juvenile chimp.

As far as races go, the problem is that most races have both paedomorphic and gerontomorphic traits. Europeans, for instance, are hairy, a gerontomorphic trait, yet lightly pigmented, a neotenous trait. Negroes are dark, gerontomorphic, yet their skulls have no sharp angles, neotenous, while their teeth and jaws are procumbant, neotenous, as well as prognathic, gerontomorphic. Some races are more one way than the other. Australoids tend to be gerontomorphic while Bushmen are thought of as paedomorphic. But some Australoids are born blond and Bushmen retain odd aspects of their sex organs which must be considered primitive and so gerontomorphic.

Neanderthals as compared to modern races were gerontomorphic as were all previous fossil forms. This caused the speculation in evolutionary theory. I think human evolution has chosen some paedomorphic forms and retained some gerontomorphic forms.

Please, someone define neomorphic for me.

SouthernBoy
Monday, January 23rd, 2006, 11:35 PM
Please, someone define neomorphic for me. A "new trait"; it is antonymous to "archemorphic".

Agrippa
Monday, January 23rd, 2006, 11:55 PM
There is a fundamental difference between unbalanced paedomorphy and balanced progressive tendencies which show a partial retention of neotenic features.

http://forums.skadi.net/showthread.php?t=43471
http://forums.skadi.net/showthread.php?t=44712

Just as an example, Homo floriensis was reduced and had partly infantile characteristics too, but was obviously the result of a rather degenerative reduction process, whereas Homo sapiens was, if compared with Homo erectus, especially in some features on the skull and if its about the braincase in particular more Neotenic, but if its about the general physical appearance mature.