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Prodigal Son
Monday, September 29th, 2003, 05:29 PM
196.1

Red-haired Finno-Ugrics in Russia
One usually associates red hair with norhwestern Europe and Scots, British, or Vikings, but there seems to be another center of red hair in Russia. Herodotus described a red-haired people called the Boudinoi. Some have speculated that they were a Slavic tribe but below is a link which claims that they were a Finno-Ugric tribe ancestral to the modern Komi.

"So long existence of the pre-Permians couldn't remain unnoticed in the ancient sources (ancient Greek, Arabian). The fullest count of the European peoples, lived to the North from the ancient Greek colonies in the Black Sea Coast, is given in the work of the ancient Greek historian Herodotes, "The Father of History" (between 490-480 B.C. - about 425 B.C.). The scientists believe the ancestors of the Finno-Ugric peoples are presented in the list of the peoples, given by Herodotes. It's possible, Herodotes' "Jirks" are the ancestors of the modern Hungarians, "Tissagets" - the ancestors of the Mansi, "Budins" - the Permians, "Helanhlens" - ancestors of the Mari. Herodotes writes about the Budins, as following:
"The Budins are the large and numerous tribe, everybody has light-blue eyes and red hair. The wooden town Gelon is located in their area. The houses and sanctuaries have been built of wood, too. The Budins, the indigenes are nomads. These are only people in this area, which eat pike cones. The Gelons, however, occupy agriculture, cultivate gardens and eat bread. All their area is covered with the dense forests of the different kind. In the center of the thicket there is an enormous lake surrounded with moors and thicket of reed. They catch otters, beavers and other animals in this lake. The Budins sew their fur-coats using the fur of these animals." The period, which is related this description written by Herodotes about the Budins to, - I millenium B.C.
The academic P.Haidu comments the words of Herodotes on the following way: in I millenium B.C. the Permians (the Budins) lived in the closed neighborhood with the Scythians (the Gelons). In that time the Budins, hunting and fishing, started already to adopt the agriculture from their southern neighbors: the Kimmerians, Scythians, Alani: Nearer to the end of the pre-Permian period one of the Turkic tribes - the Old Bolgars, which were the ancestors of the modern Chuvashs, moved to Volga. They created a powerful state in VII century A.D., which the southern part of the Permians, the ancestors of the modern Udmurts, depended on. "

Quoted from:Finno-Ugric language family
Address:
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/2282/finno.html
Here are the perecentages that Coon gives for red hair in Udmurts and Irish, respectively:

"In head hair color however, a difference may be seen, for Maliev's series shows that but 2 per cent are black, 32 per cent dark brown, 29 per cent brown, 15 per cent light brown, and 7 per cent flaxen. Of the rest, 11 per cent are listed as reddish-brown. Chomiakov confirms this high incidence of rufosity, with 6 per cent of red hair color. Among Maliev's subjects only 15 per cent had black or brown beards; of the others 47 per cent were listed as red. These Votiaks, then, are not as blond as the Carelians, but blondism is frequent and characteristic; rufosity, notably absent from both the Carelian group and from the Iron Age Nordic race, and not important among the two tribes of Volga Finns, becomes a major factor among Permians."

Source: Coon, Carleton Stevens, The Races of Europe, Chapter IX, Section 9, "Racial Characteristics of the Easterns Finns."

And now for the Irish:

"The hair color of the Irish is predominantly brown; black hair accounts for less than 3 per cent of the total, while the ashen series (Fischer #20-26) amounts to but one-half of one per cent. Forty per cent have dark brown hair (Fischer #4-5); 35 per cent have medium brown (Fischer #7-9); reddish brown hues total over 5 per cent (closest to Fischer #6, #10), while clear reds (Fischer #1-3) run higher than 4 per cent. "

Source: Coon, Carleton Stevens, The Races of Europe, Chapter X, Section 2, "Ireland."


A picture of some Komi maidens:
http://www.finugor.komiinform.ru/info/foto/f2_5.JPG

How would you classify this one?
http://www.finugor.komiinform.ru/info/foto/f2_1.JPG

xa
Monday, September 29th, 2003, 10:20 PM
Perhaps the person on the bottom is a woman of the Ural/Volga region Mari-Khanty, or from the clothes, she looks like the other Komi. Either Finnic - or Turkic, where the red or golden hair is a prominent feature.

Red hair is not that frequent in the Baltic Finnish population.

Prodigal Son
Monday, September 29th, 2003, 10:40 PM
Perhaps the person on the bottom is a woman of the Ural/Volga region Mari-Khanty, or from the clothes, she looks like the other Komi.

yes she's a Komi. She is in the far left of the bottom row of the first picture.


Red hair is not that frequent in the Baltic Finnish population.

It's very infrequent indeed. Most people are unaware that there is a center of rufosity on the extreme Northeast periphery of Europe.

xa
Tuesday, September 30th, 2003, 03:39 AM
From reading this article and other postings at this site, and what I have seen, the golden/reddish tone is not common in the Nordic Population.

http://www.fikas.no/~sprocket/snpa/chapter-IX9.htm

In this article they mention only 4 men out of a thousand in Carelia, show any rufosity. My mother is Karelian (perhaps with ad-mixture of both Finnish and Saami) and she does not have ash-blond hair, it is a combination between a dark strawberry blond to light brown. Although, it isnt the goldness what I have - and most likely from my Balkan father.

From reading old mythology; The Viking Sagas or the Kalevala, we can hear about women with their golden hair.

Maybe it was only a myth, that the blondish colour was seen upon as Gold.





It's very infrequent indeed. Most people are unaware that there is a center of rufosity on the extreme Northeast periphery of Europe.

Dr. Solar Wolff
Tuesday, September 30th, 2003, 07:13 AM
The last I heard there was a rising frequency of blondism in Laps. It was said this must be due to contact with Swedes (this was Sweden) and some unknown selective pressure for blondism in the far North. Has anyone else heard of this or have any references?

Dr. Solar Wolff
Tuesday, September 30th, 2003, 07:18 AM
As far as the redhaired Finns are concerned, one would think this was a case of genetic drift except for the statement that this was a large population. There is no real reason on biologic grounds why red hair would not occur in a cold, damp climate as stated by the rules of Allen or was it Bergmann, I forget which.

xa
Saturday, October 4th, 2003, 02:04 AM
http://www.fikas.no/~sprocket/snpa/chapter-IX2.htm

xa
Saturday, October 4th, 2003, 02:18 AM
:-O