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Galaico
Monday, December 26th, 2005, 04:21 PM
The human colonization of Europe was mainly done in four different stages in Prehistoric times. The first colonization of Europe was done in the Upper Paleolithic, around 45,000 years ago. These first Cro-Magnon settlers came from North-West Asia, where they had developed the R1 haplotype in the Y Chromosome. They established themselves in the European Glacier refuges of Iberia and North Caucasus. The Iberian Cro-Magnons developed the R1b haplotype, while those established between the Black Sea and the Caspian Sea developed the R1a haplotype.

20,000 years ago, at the end of the Upper Paleolithic and the beginning of the Mesolithic, the second stage took place. Human populations established themselves in the Glacier refuge of the Balkans. These Cro-Magnons came from the Middle East, where they had developed the I haplotype, closely related to the G, J, and K Neolithic haplotypes, as all of them were mutations of the ancient F haplotype.


http://www.dnaheritage.com/images/masterclass/europe_haplogroups_1.jpg

The third stage took place 12,000 years ago. The Glacial ice began moving back to the polar regions. The three populations established in Iberia, the Balkans, and the Caucasus, began the colonization of the rest of Europe. The “R1b Iberians” colonized the European Atlantic coast, from Gibraltar to Jutland including the British Isles and some parts of Italy and Germany; the “R1a Caucasics” colonized all Eastern Europe; and finally the “I Balkanics” colonized Central Europe and the Scandinavian Peninsula.

http://www.dnaheritage.com/images/masterclass/europe_haplogroups_2.jpg

The fourth and final stage took place in the Neolithic. 8,000 years ago people from the Middle East carrying Neolithic haplotypes (mainly E3b, G, J and K) expanded all over the Mediterranean coast. 4,500 years ago, people coming from Asia and carrying the N haplotype established themselves in the Eastern Baltic Regions.

http://www.dnaheritage.com/images/masterclass/europe_haplogroups_3.jpg

All these different populations didn’t remain completely isolated and European inter-mix took place, leaving us the following map of Europe:
http://www.scs.uiuc.edu/~mcdonald/Wo...groupsMaps.pdf (http://forums.skadi.net/redirector.php?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.scs. uiuc.edu%2F%7Emcdonald%2FWorldHaplogroup sMaps.pdf)

Nagelfar
Saturday, December 23rd, 2006, 08:00 AM
So, whereas R1b made it to southern Europe first. Haplogroup I made it to scandinavia first?

Klegutati
Sunday, December 24th, 2006, 06:27 PM
And there has been mixing between these three major Y-haplogroups of Europe ever since...:thumbup

Galaico
Sunday, December 24th, 2006, 06:44 PM
So, whereas R1b made it to southern Europe first. Haplogroup I made it to scandinavia first?
Well, I don't know who arrived first to Scandinavia. During the Last Age, R1b populations took refge in Iberia, while I populations did it in the Balkans.

I haplogroup is majoritary in Sweden and Norway, while R1b is majoritary in Denmark, West Norway and Iceland. I suppose both populations arrived more or less at the same time.

Nagelfar
Sunday, December 24th, 2006, 11:54 PM
R1b seems like it is densest at the tips of Scandinavia, coming presumably from the much more dense western British isles;
http://www.relativegenetics.com/genomics/images/haploMaps/originals/R1b_large_RG.jpg
I1a seems much more concentrated in Norway & Sweden, seems to be centered in Trondheim, actually. Which makes me think it was 'squeezed' in by the others, and was thus there originally;
http://www.relativegenetics.com/genomics/images/haploMaps/originals/I1a_large_RG.jpg
R1a looks pretty much centered in several areas in eastern Europe. In Scandinavia, it is 'thickest' around the area of Oslo, Norway. Though that is also its most major city and major population area. Could be related to more modern population movements.
http://www.relativegenetics.com/genomics/images/haploMaps/originals/R1a_large_RG.jpg

Klegutati
Friday, December 29th, 2006, 02:17 AM
It appears there is a significant R1b population in the Caucasus.. How is this, since it is from West? Could it be that R1b is recent Indo-European from Caucasus?:|
http://www.relativegenetics.com/genomics/images/haploMaps/originals/R1b_large_RG.jpg

Oswiu
Friday, December 29th, 2006, 03:40 AM
It appears there is a significant R1b population in the Caucasus.. How is this, since it is from West? Could it be that R1b is recent Indo-European from Caucasus?:|
http://www.relativegenetics.com/genomics/images/haploMaps/originals/R1b_large_RG.jpg
It seems to be associated with the Ossets [who as you know are the descendants of Alans, Sarmatians, Scythians and such folk].
Perhaps the unusual look of the map might be explained by a bottle necking of the male population during the 'de-Iranicisation' of the steppes, followed by a chance founder effect among the subsequently resurgent Ossets?
Or maybe simpler - I doubt that sufficient genetic study has been made of the huge spaces in question in the Ukraine and southern Russia!
Or else the very high incidence of R1A in the Steppe there is obscuring things.

Galaico
Friday, December 29th, 2006, 10:34 AM
There may be two possibilities:

1. Last studies say that R1b probably didn't appear in Iberia. It already existed 35,000 years ago, and that while the bulk of the R1b population settled in Iberia during the last Ice Age, a few of them remained in Eastern Europe, representing the current R1b influence in the Caucasus, Anatolia and Eastern Europe. This would explain the fact that the R1b subclades found in Eastern Europe are much older than those found in Western Europe.

Indo-European remnants could also be an answer if we follow any of the Euro-centric theories, which I personally accept. I started my own theory on Aryan invasions, but it is difficult to sustain if we accept the information of the previous paragraph.
http://forums.skadi.net/my_theory_aryan_invasions-t45548.html?&highlight=theory

2. The other possibility could simply be that the map is not accurate enough. For example, the map shows a rate of almost 0% of R1b in Galicia and Asturias according to the light colour, when the real numbers are of 56% in Galicia and 60% in Asturias.

Klegutati
Friday, December 29th, 2006, 04:52 PM
There may be two possibilities:

1. Last studies say that R1b probably didn't appear in Iberia. It already existed 35,000 years ago, and that while the bulk of the R1b population settled in Iberia during the last Ice Age, a few of them remained in Eastern Europe, representing the current R1b influence in the Caucasus, Anatolia and Eastern Europe. This would explain the fact that the R1b subclades found in Eastern Europe are much older than those found in Western Europe.

Indo-European remnants could also be an answer if we follow any of the Euro-centric theories, which I personally accept. I started my own theory on Aryan invasions, but it is difficult to sustain if we accept the information of the previous paragraph.
http://forums.skadi.net/my_theory_aryan_invasions-t45548.html?&highlight=theory

2. The other possibility could simply be that the map is not accurate enough. For example, the map shows a rate of almost 0% of R1b in Galicia and Asturias according to the light colour, when the real numbers are of 56% in Galicia and 60% in Asturias.

So, it is proven that R1b in Western Europe is Paleolithic European? What about the sub-clades of R1b like the 23/11 on STRs 390 and 391 (Frisian type).. I know they represent a mainland Celtic haplotype in and around Germany area. Would they be from the reindeer Hamburger-, Federmesser,- Bromme,- and Ahrensburg-Cultures from 12500-8900 BCE? Would they (R1b1c9*) in a general aspect be from the Iberian refuge? The descendant culture of the reindeer cultures is the Ertebølle culture of Denmark, and North-West Germany. Would this culture represent the Frisian R1b?:)

Galaico
Friday, December 29th, 2006, 07:01 PM
So, it is proven that R1b in Western Europe is Paleolithic European? What about the sub-clades of R1b like the 23/11 on STRs 390 and 391 (Frisian type).. I know they represent a mainland Celtic haplotype in and around Germany area. Would they be from the reindeer Hamburger-, Federmesser,- Bromme,- and Ahrensburg-Cultures from 12500-8900 BCE? Would they (R1b1c9*) in a general aspect be from the Iberian refuge? The descendant culture of the reindeer cultures is the Ertebølle culture of Denmark, and North-West Germany. Would this culture represent the Frisian R1b?:)
Sincerely, I have no idea. I assume they descend from the population that took refuge in Iberia, but you should ask someone better informed.

Klegutati
Sunday, December 31st, 2006, 04:52 AM
Sincerely, I have no idea. I assume they descend from the population that took refuge in Iberia, but you should ask someone better informed.

I think it's remarkable that the only major haplogroups from Central Asia/ southern Siberia in the Upper Paleolithic in Europe are R1b and R1a.. N is the other, but it isn't as common.. Q and R are brothers from P, the original South Siberian mammoth hunters..;)

Euclides
Sunday, December 31st, 2006, 11:20 PM
...

Huzar
Tuesday, August 14th, 2007, 10:49 AM
I start with posting some maps................


Y- chromosome



http://i15.tinypic.com/68i4qx0.gif



mtDNA haplogroups:




http://i15.tinypic.com/4v6nh4x.gif



Differences between Europeans and non-europeans.





http://i14.tinypic.com/5xhp4es.jpg

Nagelfar
Tuesday, August 14th, 2007, 03:45 PM
I've never liked that map, why do they separate R1a & R1b but not the highly differentiated I1a & I1b? (They just clump them all as I)

I1a:
http://www.relativegenetics.com/genomics/images/haploMaps/originals/I1a_large_RG.jpg

I1b:
http://www.relativegenetics.com/genomics/images/haploMaps/originals/I1b_large_RG.jpg

I1b2a:
http://www.relativegenetics.com/genomics/images/haploMaps/originals/I1c_large_RG.jpg

teutonicscult
Thursday, January 28th, 2010, 12:44 AM
Isn't this information now outdated???? I1 haplotype is refered to as the cro-magnon man, whereas R1b and R1a represent the Indo-europeans!!! -___-

Teutonicus Fury
Thursday, January 28th, 2010, 12:53 AM
Isn't this information now outdated???? I1 haplotype is refered to as the cro-magnon man, whereas R1b and R1a represent the Indo-europeans!!! -___-

Exactly !

kingdans
Thursday, January 28th, 2010, 09:22 PM
Isn't this information now outdated???? I1 haplotype is refered to as the cro-magnon man, whereas R1b and R1a represent the Indo-europeans!!! -___-

Is it the current view that I1 is cro-magnon, or is that what you're referring to as being outdated information?

Anlef
Thursday, January 28th, 2010, 09:58 PM
Like I said in the other thread (http://forums.skadi.net/showthread.php?p=991438#post991438), the idea that R1b is Indo-European is highly unlikely in light of the fact that the Basques (the only Western-Europeans speaking a non-Indo-European language) have the highest amount of R1b in the world.

kingdans
Friday, January 29th, 2010, 02:22 AM
Like I said in the other thread (http://forums.skadi.net/showthread.php?p=991438#post991438), the idea that R1b is Indo-European is highly unlikely in light of the fact that the Basques (the only Western-Europeans speaking a non-Indo-European language) have the highest amount of R1b in the world.
I think I agree with you on that one, though this guy makes a good argument:

source: http://forums.familytreedna.com/showthread.php?t=2890&page=3



The reason some geneticists believe R1b is the aboriginal W. Euro y-haplogroup comes down to a single people: the Basques.

Historians in the 18th and 19th centuries were proposing that the Basques represented the remnants of the original native Western European population. That thinking has persisted. So, when it was discovered that the Basques are mostly (although not entirely) R1b, geneticists leapt to the conclusion that R1b is the aboriginal Western European y-haplogroup. It seems they did not stop to consider whether or not the original premise concerning the Basques was correct in the first place. They also apparently did not stop to consider whether or not the Basques have always been mostly R1b.

As Ellen Levy Coffman has pointed out on the Rootsweb DNA List (her soon-to-be published paper deals with this topic) the Basques are not the pristine, isolated, aboriginal European population some consider them to be. Studies of ancient mtDNA from an old Basque cemetery revealed the presence of a mixture of mtDNA haplogroups and a connection to the Middle East. That connection does not exist for y-haplogroup R1b, however.

The old Basque marriage custom of the groom coming to live with the bride's family is tailor-made for the introduction of outsider y-dna and the simultaneous preservation of the bride's language and culture.

If Basque R1b represents the aboriginal W. Euro y-dna, it seems incredible that nowhere else in Western Europe, with its overwhleming level of R1b, was any similar non-Indo-European speech preserved. How odd.

Not in insular Ireland or even the fastnesses of the Scottish Highlands or the Swiss or Bavarian Alps.

Weird, huh?

The Basque language has been classed by some linguists as a member of the Dene-Caucasian language family, a controversial viewpoint. If true, it would seem likely that the Basques were not originally R1b.

I believe the unquestioning acceptance of an old, wrongheaded, 18th and 19th century tautology (i.e., that the Basques are the aboriginal W. Europeans) has led to the current misunderstanding of the place of R1b in the prehistory of Western Europe.

Another problem with the current state of genetics papers in Western Europe is that none of them is value neutral. Everything is political. There is a certain amount of political capital for Irish researchers and others to maintain that the y-dna that predominates in Ireland has always been there. It is more appealing to some to think their ancestors are the longsuffering "natives" than to admit they might be relative newcomers in Western Europe. Such a view is also much more in keeping with the current fashion for political correctness than the old, traditional idea that the ancestors of most Western Europeans arrived as Indo-European invaders from the East.

At any rate, a better understanding of the Basques, their dna, and their place in European prehistory should help clear things up.

It would also be wise for researchers to remember that the Basques are an extremely small ethnic minority in Western Europe. It was never a good idea to base theories about the single most prolific y-haplogroup in Western Europe upon such an exceptional group.

Archeopteryx
Sunday, February 14th, 2010, 10:51 AM
Isn't this information now outdated???? I1 haplotype is refered to as the cro-magnon man, whereas R1b and R1a represent the Indo-europeans!!! -___-

If you look at the thread before you, you will see that it was posted in 2007. So yes it is now out of date.

You can't ascribe a particular prehistoric human to a y-haplogroup. There were Cormagnids who were R1a as well as I1 and R1a and possibly other extinct haplogroups. The upperpaleolithic peoples of Europe might have been predominantly one type of haplogroup but never exclusively just that haplogroup.

Roderic
Tuesday, October 19th, 2010, 11:20 PM
Maps of Neolithic and Bronze Age migrations in Europe and the Near East

http://www.eupedia.com/europe/neolithic_europe_map.shtml


Origins, age, spread and ethnic association of European haplogroups and subclades

http://www.eupedia.com/europe/origins_haplogroups_europe.shtml

MichaelOH
Friday, July 29th, 2011, 01:55 AM
Is the Bourbon dynasty descended from the Alans, an ancient Sarmatian tribe?

The modern day descendants of the Alans are the Ossetians. The North Ossetians in the mid northern Caucasus area of Russia belong overwhelmingly to the G2a1 subgroup (70-80% based upon available samples). The G Y-haplogroup has also been found to link the earlier Etruscans of Italy with Anatolia and the Caucasus region, particularly with Ossetians and Georgians. Today in Turkey, the southern Caucasus and Iran, where the Sarmatians originated, haplogroup G reaches the highest percentage of a regional population worldwide.

Louis XVI Y-DNA was supposedly tested from blood in a cloth purported to have been collected at his beheading and maintained in an ornate gourd decorated with French Revolution themes, and found to be most consistent with Y-DNA type G2a3b1a.

The Alans were overwhelmed by the Huns circa 370 AD and migrated west into Gaul and across the Pyrenees mountains into Spain. In the 5th century, Flavius Aëtius settled large numbers of Alans in various areas of Gaul in order to quell unrest. The location of Bourbonnais from where the Bourbon dynasty is located along the migratory path of the Alans through Gaul and into Spain.

The senior Bourbon line descending from Robert, Count of Clermont, became extinct with the death of the Constable of France Charles de Bourbon in 1527. The junior line of La Marche-Vendôme remained, from which descends Henry III of Navarre, later becoming Henry IV of France. Henry's junior Bourbon line descends directly from the pre-Capetian House of Bourbon paternally so as to transmit Y-DNA characteristics.

Henry's line continue in direct paternal descent to Louis XVI of France, and to Juan Carlos of Spain. :thumbup