PDA

View Full Version : "Mathematical Proof that the "Quran" is the Word of God"



Thorburn
Wednesday, September 17th, 2003, 12:05 AM
MATHEMATICAL PROOF THAT THE QURAN IS THE WORD OF GOD


In the name of God, Most Gracious, Most Merciful.


"Over it are Nineteen." (Quran, 74:30)

"And We have set none but angels as Guardians of the Fire; and We have fixed their number only as a trial for Unbelievers,- in order that the People of the Book may arrive at certainty, and the Believers may increase in Faith,- and that no doubts may be left for the People of the Book and the Believers, and that those in whose hearts is a disease and the Unbelievers may say, 'What symbol doth Allah intend by this?' Thus doth Allah leave to stray whom He pleaseth, and guide whom He pleaseth: and none can know the forces of thy Lord, except He and this is no other than a warning to mankind." (Quran, 74:31)


ONE OF THE GREAT MIRACLES [74:35]

For the first time in history, we have a built-in proof that the Quran is the unaltered, original and complete word of God. A proof that is verifiable by anyone. So powerful is the proof, that in a few generations it will become obvious, that any religion or any group of people, which advocates faith, as a pre-requisite or basis for belief will immediately be exposed as a false religion. Since we now have proof, blind faith is no longer valid.

"You shall not accept any information, unless you verify it for
yourself. I have given you the hearing, the eyesight, and the
brain, and you are responsible for using them." (17:36)

The mathematical structure of the Quran was discovered by Dr. Rashad Khalifa, an Egyptian born American biochemist, in the 1970's. Dr. Khalifa, started translating the Quran into English with the determination to find an explanation for the mysterious initials prefixing 29 Suras. He initiated an extensive research on these initials (for example: the Arabic letter "Qaaf" in Suras 42 and 50), after placing the Quranic text of the initialed Suras into a computer. His objective was to find a mathematical pattern which would explain the significance of the initials, although he had no idea where and what to look for. After several years of research, Dr. Khalifa published his first results in a book entitled MIRACLE OF THE QURAN, Significance of the Mysterious Alphabets (Islamic Productions), in 1973. It was in 1974 that Dr. Khalifa discovered that there was a common denominator in the initials and throughout the Quran - the number 19.

Subsequently Dr. Khalifa published, THE COMPUTER SPEAKS: GOD'S MESSAGE TO THE WORLD (Renaissance Productions, 1981), QURAN: Visual Presentation of the Miracle (Islamic Productions, 1982); and the translation of the Quran in English (Islamic Productions, 1989). All these publications are good tools to verify the mathematical structure. (The books can be ordered from ICS, PO Box 43476, Tucson, Az 85733-3476).


SOME SIMPLE FACTS

1. The first verse (1:1), "Basmalah" consists of 19 Arabic letters.

2. Each of the four Arabic words of "Basmalah" are repeated in the Quran in multiples of 19 in numbered verses.
The first word..."Ism" (Name).....occurs...19 times
The second word.."Allah" (God)....occurs...2698 times (19x142).
The third word..."Al-Rahman" (Most Gracious)...57 times (19x3)
The fourth word.."Raheem" (Most Merciful)..114 times (19x6)

The above can be verified by the following:

A. In the Concordance of the Quran by Abdul Baqy on page 362 the word ISM is listed with 19 occurrences. The peculiar spelling of the word ISM as BISM is repeated in the Quran three times in verses 1:1, 27:30 & 11:41. (1+1+27+30+11+41 + number of occurrences 3 =114 or 19x6)

B. The count of the word ALLAH can best be verified by Dr. Rashad Khalifa's translation of the Quran which carries the cumulative total occurrences of ALLAH on each page. Abdul Baqy gets the same count when the numbered verse 1:1 is included in his count.

C. On page 307 on Abdul Baqy's concordance we find AL REHMAN to be 57 as total occurrences.

D. The word AL RAHEEM is listed on page 307 as occurring 95 times, while RAHEEM is listed on page 309 as occurring as 20 times. The total occurrence is 114 (95 -1 + 20 = 114). AL RAHEEM in verse 9:128 is not counted (Note: verses 9:128 & 129 were falsely injected into the Quran after the death of the prophet. The subject will be discussed in another topic).

3. The Quran consists of 114 suras, which is ...19 x 6

4. The total number of verses in the Quran is 6346, or ..19x334.

6346 is the total of 6234 numbered verses and 112 un-numbered verses (Basmalah)
Also 6 + 3 + 4 + 6 = 19

5. From the missing Basmalah in sura 9 to the extra Basmalah in sura 27, there are precisely 19 suras.

6. The first revelation (96:1-5) consists of 19 words and 76 letters (19 x 4)

7. First sura revealed (sura 96) consists of 19 verses and 304 Arabic letters (19 x 16).

8. The Quran mentions 30 different numbers.(Eg: 300 & 9 in verse 18:25). The sum of the 30 numbers is 162,146 or 19 x 8534.

9. The sum of all verse numbers where God "Allah" is mentioned is 118,123 or 19 x 6,217.


QURANIC INITIALS

There are 29 suras in the Quran with prefixed initials. All the initials are linked to the common denominator - 19.

"Q" (Qaaf) is initialed in suras 42 and 50. In both the suras,"Q" is repeated 57 times or 19 x 3.

"Nun" (Noon) is initialed in sura 68 and the name of the letter is spelled out as - "noon wow noon" - in the original text. The total count of "Nun" is 133 or 19 x 7.

"S" (Saad) is initialed in suras, 7, 19, 38, and the total occurrence in the three suras is 152 or 19 x 8.

"Y.S" (Ya Seen). These two letters are prefixed in Sura 36 and the total occurrence for both of them is 285 or 19 x 15.

"H.M" (Ha Mim). These letters prefix suras 40 through 46 and their total occurrence in the seven "H.M" initialed suras is 2147 or 19 x 113.

"`A.S.Q" ('Ayn Seen Qaf). These initials constitute Verse 2 of sura 42 and are repeated in the sura 209 or 19 x 11 times.

"A.L.M" (Alef Laam Mim). These most frequently used letters in the Arabic language are prefixed in six suras - 2, 3, 29, 30, 31 and 32 and the total occurrence of the three letters in each of the six suras in 9899 (19x521), 5662 (19x298), 1672 (19x88),1254 (19x66), 817 (19x43) and 570 (19x30) respectively.

All other Quranic initials, without exception, show similar patterns of being multiples of 19.


GEMATRICAL VALUE

When the Quran was revealed, 14 centuries ago, the numbers known today did not exist. Alphabets of Arabic, Hebrew, Aramaic and Greek languages were used as numerals with a value for each alphabet. For example, "alef" had a value of 1, "wow" had a value of 6, etc. The total sum of the 19 letters of "Basmalah" is 786, a number known to muslim masses all over the world by God's will. It is beyond the scope of this article to give the mathematical patterns in the Quran, taking into consideration the Gematrical Value of Arabic letters. Only one example will be given. The total sum of the 14 Arabic letters which participate in the formation of Quranic initials in 29 suras is 693.....693 + 29 = 722 or 19 x 19 x 2.


COMPLEX NUMBERS

The use of a computer becomes mandatory in certain complex aspects of the mathematical miracle of the Quran. For example, the sum of the number of verses in each of the 114 suras plus the sum of every single verse number in all the suras is equal to 339,644 or 19 x 17,876.

If we take the same number used in getting the total of 339,644 and put them all, side by side, from the first sura to the last sura, we obtain a 12,692 digit number. The number 12,692 is divisible by 19 (19 x 668). But more importantly, the entire 12,692 digit number is also a multiple of 19.

7 1234567 286 1234....285286 200 123......5 12345 6 123456.


OVER IT IS NINETEEN (74:30)

We now know the meaning of verse 30 of sura 74. God has chosen the number nineteen as his signature on his creation - the Glorious Quran. Anyone who cares to study and verify the mathematical structure of the Quran will know with certainty that such a book can never be authored by anyone, other than by God. When this mathematical structure is taken together with the literary excellence of the Quran, one can appreciate God's assertion in the following verses in the same sura 74, that this is one of the God's great miracles.

"Absolutely, (I swear) by the moon.
"And the night as it passes.
"And the morning as it shines.
"THIS IS ONE OF THE GREAT MIRACLES." (74:32-35)


REASON FOR THE MIRACLE OF QURAN

Verse 74:31 gives five reasons for the miracle of the Quran with number 19 as the common denominator.
1. To disturb the disbelievers.
2. To convince the Christians and the Jews (that this is divine scripture).
3. To strengthen the faith of the faithful.
4. To remove all traces of doubt from the hearts of Christians, Jews, as well as the believers; and
5. To expose those who harbor doubt in their hearts, and the disbelievers; who will say, "What did God mean by this allegory?" (or "So What?").


NEW ERA IN RELIGION

With mankind having a verifiable proof, that the Quran, the Final Testament, is the unaltered word of God, we have entered a new era in religion. Verse 17:36 quoted above mandates, that we use our hearing, eyesight and brain to verify all information, including the miracle of the Quran by ourselves.

This new era also mandates that we seek proof for any religious law or practice dictated upon us. What makes the religion of Submission (Islam) so easy, is the proof, we now have, that the Quran is the unaltered and complete word of God. As submitters (Muslims) to God, we have to accept God's assertion in the Quran; that the Quran is complete, fully detailed and the only source of religious law.


LINKS

Beyond Probability (http://www.submission.org/beyond.html) - Study Presenting Many More Examples of the Quranic Code With Emphasis on the Miracle of the Basmallah and Sura 1.
Mathematical Miracle of the Quran (http://www.submission.org/miracle/) - Extensive Text Library on the Divine Number Code in the Quran.

Francis_Benson
Wednesday, September 17th, 2003, 03:24 AM
Although, I am not convinced that the Quran is the ABSOLUTE word of GOD, I did find your post fascinating. I have a conception of GOD quite different from the majority of people of all religions, I did greatly appreciate the way that Islam speak of GOD. I do not accept Allah nor Jehovah as the supreme personality of the Godhead. One of my favorite sites refutes Allah and Jehovah as scientific religions.
I would be interested to hear how others view the site. (http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Ithaca/3440/islamdial.html)
Is it true that when you cut and paste from another site you steal bandwidth from that site? I am not very computer or internet savy.

Thorburn
Wednesday, September 17th, 2003, 08:49 AM
Although, I am not convinced that the Quran is the ABSOLUTE word of GOD, I did find your post fascinating. I have a conception of GOD quite different from the majority of people of all religions, I did greatly appreciate the way that Islam speak of GOD. I do not accept Allah nor Jehovah as the supreme personality of the Godhead. One of my favorite sites refutes Allah and Jehovah as scientific religions.
I would be interested to hear how others view the site. (http://forums.skadi.net/redirector.php?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.geoc ities.com%2FAthens%2FIthaca%2F3440%2Fisl amdial.html)
The site does not work for me. It displays absolutely nothing with Opera. Probably created using IE quirk codes.


Is it true that when you cut and paste from another site you steal bandwidth from that site? I am not very computer or internet savy. No, that's an urban legend. ;)

Be welcome to copy & paste from the site, as I can't view it.

Francis_Benson
Wednesday, September 17th, 2003, 04:30 PM
Sorry, I stopped using Opera because it wouldn't work on MSN Sites for posting using their hacks. Here is the address
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Ithaca/3440/islamdial.html

Francis_Benson
Wednesday, September 17th, 2003, 04:33 PM
Actually, your post was so long I thought you may have cut and pasted it and as a religious man I know you wouldn't one to steal as it would be detrimental to your karma.

Moody
Wednesday, September 17th, 2003, 05:43 PM
Forgive my ignorance, but how does deriving the number 19 from a text constitute 'proof' that the text in question is the 'word of God'?

Grimr
Wednesday, September 17th, 2003, 09:07 PM
If this is a case of mathematics in the greater scheme of things then I propose the number 1, 1 race, to rule above all others as the only true and highest divine law!

Religion is but an escape from reality but perhaps there is a connection between mathematics and the true lords of the universe however it certainly does not involve Islamic scum or any form of Semitic ideal.

Jack
Thursday, September 18th, 2003, 12:04 AM
I was wondering exactly the same thing, Moody. And I'm with Prospero, btw. I don't know why people here got excited about such a fatalistic, openly multiracialist religion such as Islam being 'proven' as the 'word of God'. Please explain...?

Francis_Benson
Thursday, September 18th, 2003, 12:57 AM
I simply stated that I wasn't convince that the "PROOF" was proof that the Quran was the word of God and it was ironic that the poster probably stole bandwidth in his or her religious post. The site I post is anti christian, judaism, islam, hinduism, etc.

cosmocreator
Thursday, September 18th, 2003, 01:34 AM
Don't you find it funny that they say it's the word of God? These books are the word of man who think, and maybe do, have some insight to the Creator. In a hundred years or so, people will be talking about the prophet Cosmo. :halo :D

OnionPeeler
Thursday, September 18th, 2003, 02:56 AM
It can also be used as a calculator - replacing the .1 Hertz abacus.

Evolved
Thursday, September 18th, 2003, 06:33 AM
Interesting. It's no more crazy than seeing the Virgin de Guadalupe appear on a taco shell. :hispanic

Brit Muslims (http://www.radwan.cwc.net/britishmuslims.html)

I like Azeez, Mubarak and Basheer. :heartbeat

Rahul
Thursday, September 18th, 2003, 01:19 PM
MATHEMATICAL PROOF THAT THE QURAN IS THE WORD OF GOD


In the name of God, Most Gracious, Most Merciful.


"Over it are Nineteen." (Quran, 74:30)

"And We have set none but angels as Guardians of the Fire; and We have fixed their number only as a trial for Unbelievers,- in order that the People of the Book may arrive at certainty, and the Believers may increase in Faith,- and that no doubts may be left for the People of the Book and the Believers, and that those in whose hearts is a disease and the Unbelievers may say, 'What symbol doth Allah intend by this?' Thus doth Allah leave to stray whom He pleaseth, and guide whom He pleaseth: and none can know the forces of thy Lord, except He and this is no other than a warning to mankind." (Quran, 74:31)


ONE OF THE GREAT MIRACLES [74:35]

For the first time in history, we have a built-in proof that the Quran is the unaltered, original and complete word of God. A proof that is verifiable by anyone. So powerful is the proof, that in a few generations it will become obvious, that any religion or any group of people, which advocates faith, as a pre-requisite or basis for belief will immediately be exposed as a false religion. Since we now have proof, blind faith is no longer valid.

"You shall not accept any information, unless you verify it for
yourself. I have given you the hearing, the eyesight, and the
brain, and you are responsible for using them." (17:36)

The mathematical structure of the Quran was discovered by Dr. Rashad Khalifa, an Egyptian born American biochemist, in the 1970's. Dr. Khalifa, started translating the Quran into English with the determination to find an explanation for the mysterious initials prefixing 29 Suras. He initiated an extensive research on these initials (for example: the Arabic letter "Qaaf" in Suras 42 and 50), after placing the Quranic text of the initialed Suras into a computer. His objective was to find a mathematical pattern which would explain the significance of the initials, although he had no idea where and what to look for. After several years of research, Dr. Khalifa published his first results in a book entitled MIRACLE OF THE QURAN, Significance of the Mysterious Alphabets (Islamic Productions), in 1973. It was in 1974 that Dr. Khalifa discovered that there was a common denominator in the initials and throughout the Quran - the number 19.

Subsequently Dr. Khalifa published, THE COMPUTER SPEAKS: GOD'S MESSAGE TO THE WORLD (Renaissance Productions, 1981), QURAN: Visual Presentation of the Miracle (Islamic Productions, 1982); and the translation of the Quran in English (Islamic Productions, 1989). All these publications are good tools to verify the mathematical structure. (The books can be ordered from ICS, PO Box 43476, Tucson, Az 85733-3476).


SOME SIMPLE FACTS

1. The first verse (1:1), "Basmalah" consists of 19 Arabic letters.

2. Each of the four Arabic words of "Basmalah" are repeated in the Quran in multiples of 19 in numbered verses.
The first word..."Ism" (Name).....occurs...19 times
The second word.."Allah" (God)....occurs...2698 times (19x142).
The third word..."Al-Rahman" (Most Gracious)...57 times (19x3)
The fourth word.."Raheem" (Most Merciful)..114 times (19x6)

The above can be verified by the following:

A. In the Concordance of the Quran by Abdul Baqy on page 362 the word ISM is listed with 19 occurrences. The peculiar spelling of the word ISM as BISM is repeated in the Quran three times in verses 1:1, 27:30 & 11:41. (1+1+27+30+11+41 + number of occurrences 3 =114 or 19x6)

B. The count of the word ALLAH can best be verified by Dr. Rashad Khalifa's translation of the Quran which carries the cumulative total occurrences of ALLAH on each page. Abdul Baqy gets the same count when the numbered verse 1:1 is included in his count.

C. On page 307 on Abdul Baqy's concordance we find AL REHMAN to be 57 as total occurrences.

D. The word AL RAHEEM is listed on page 307 as occurring 95 times, while RAHEEM is listed on page 309 as occurring as 20 times. The total occurrence is 114 (95 -1 + 20 = 114). AL RAHEEM in verse 9:128 is not counted (Note: verses 9:128 & 129 were falsely injected into the Quran after the death of the prophet. The subject will be discussed in another topic).

3. The Quran consists of 114 suras, which is ...19 x 6

4. The total number of verses in the Quran is 6346, or ..19x334.

6346 is the total of 6234 numbered verses and 112 un-numbered verses (Basmalah)
Also 6 + 3 + 4 + 6 = 19

5. From the missing Basmalah in sura 9 to the extra Basmalah in sura 27, there are precisely 19 suras.

6. The first revelation (96:1-5) consists of 19 words and 76 letters (19 x 4)

7. First sura revealed (sura 96) consists of 19 verses and 304 Arabic letters (19 x 16).

8. The Quran mentions 30 different numbers.(Eg: 300 & 9 in verse 18:25). The sum of the 30 numbers is 162,146 or 19 x 8534.

9. The sum of all verse numbers where God "Allah" is mentioned is 118,123 or 19 x 6,217.


QURANIC INITIALS

There are 29 suras in the Quran with prefixed initials. All the initials are linked to the common denominator - 19.

"Q" (Qaaf) is initialed in suras 42 and 50. In both the suras,"Q" is repeated 57 times or 19 x 3.

"Nun" (Noon) is initialed in sura 68 and the name of the letter is spelled out as - "noon wow noon" - in the original text. The total count of "Nun" is 133 or 19 x 7.

"S" (Saad) is initialed in suras, 7, 19, 38, and the total occurrence in the three suras is 152 or 19 x 8.

"Y.S" (Ya Seen). These two letters are prefixed in Sura 36 and the total occurrence for both of them is 285 or 19 x 15.

"H.M" (Ha Mim). These letters prefix suras 40 through 46 and their total occurrence in the seven "H.M" initialed suras is 2147 or 19 x 113.

"`A.S.Q" ('Ayn Seen Qaf). These initials constitute Verse 2 of sura 42 and are repeated in the sura 209 or 19 x 11 times.

"A.L.M" (Alef Laam Mim). These most frequently used letters in the Arabic language are prefixed in six suras - 2, 3, 29, 30, 31 and 32 and the total occurrence of the three letters in each of the six suras in 9899 (19x521), 5662 (19x298), 1672 (19x88),1254 (19x66), 817 (19x43) and 570 (19x30) respectively.

All other Quranic initials, without exception, show similar patterns of being multiples of 19.


GEMATRICAL VALUE

When the Quran was revealed, 14 centuries ago, the numbers known today did not exist. Alphabets of Arabic, Hebrew, Aramaic and Greek languages were used as numerals with a value for each alphabet. For example, "alef" had a value of 1, "wow" had a value of 6, etc. The total sum of the 19 letters of "Basmalah" is 786, a number known to muslim masses all over the world by God's will. It is beyond the scope of this article to give the mathematical patterns in the Quran, taking into consideration the Gematrical Value of Arabic letters. Only one example will be given. The total sum of the 14 Arabic letters which participate in the formation of Quranic initials in 29 suras is 693.....693 + 29 = 722 or 19 x 19 x 2.


COMPLEX NUMBERS

The use of a computer becomes mandatory in certain complex aspects of the mathematical miracle of the Quran. For example, the sum of the number of verses in each of the 114 suras plus the sum of every single verse number in all the suras is equal to 339,644 or 19 x 17,876.

If we take the same number used in getting the total of 339,644 and put them all, side by side, from the first sura to the last sura, we obtain a 12,692 digit number. The number 12,692 is divisible by 19 (19 x 668). But more importantly, the entire 12,692 digit number is also a multiple of 19.

7 1234567 286 1234....285286 200 123......5 12345 6 123456.


OVER IT IS NINETEEN (74:30)

We now know the meaning of verse 30 of sura 74. God has chosen the number nineteen as his signature on his creation - the Glorious Quran. Anyone who cares to study and verify the mathematical structure of the Quran will know with certainty that such a book can never be authored by anyone, other than by God. When this mathematical structure is taken together with the literary excellence of the Quran, one can appreciate God's assertion in the following verses in the same sura 74, that this is one of the God's great miracles.

"Absolutely, (I swear) by the moon.
"And the night as it passes.
"And the morning as it shines.
"THIS IS ONE OF THE GREAT MIRACLES." (74:32-35)


REASON FOR THE MIRACLE OF QURAN

Verse 74:31 gives five reasons for the miracle of the Quran with number 19 as the common denominator.
1. To disturb the disbelievers.
2. To convince the Christians and the Jews (that this is divine scripture).
3. To strengthen the faith of the faithful.
4. To remove all traces of doubt from the hearts of Christians, Jews, as well as the believers; and
5. To expose those who harbor doubt in their hearts, and the disbelievers; who will say, "What did God mean by this allegory?" (or "So What?").


NEW ERA IN RELIGION

With mankind having a verifiable proof, that the Quran, the Final Testament, is the unaltered word of God, we have entered a new era in religion. Verse 17:36 quoted above mandates, that we use our hearing, eyesight and brain to verify all information, including the miracle of the Quran by ourselves.

This new era also mandates that we seek proof for any religious law or practice dictated upon us. What makes the religion of Submission (Islam) so easy, is the proof, we now have, that the Quran is the unaltered and complete word of God. As submitters (Muslims) to God, we have to accept God's assertion in the Quran; that the Quran is complete, fully detailed and the only source of religious law.


LINKS

Beyond Probability (http://www.submission.org/beyond.html) - Study Presenting Many More Examples of the Quranic Code With Emphasis on the Miracle of the Basmallah and Sura 1.
Mathematical Miracle of the Quran (http://www.submission.org/miracle/) - Extensive Text Library on the Divine Number Code in the Quran.



This greatly-aspired ideal for a "god" is nothing but pure self-denial and self-deception. It appears in Arab and subsequently in all Islamists, as well as jewish prophets, this famed vision of God. This is an expression of the Magian will-to-extension, in Spenglerian terms.

The trouble is that most people are truly cowards that they cannot accept the idea that God does not exist as reality. For then they will not have anything to live by, no excuses for their depradations, no excuses for their befuddled acts etc.

Then finally but most important is the need to understand or at least respect if not entirely understood by the feeble grasp of mind of this age, of what our ancestors adhered to when they spoke or talked of a God. But the past is, it seems, lost, unlike the proud declaration at the bottom of link to this Forum.
I could have been wrong.

Moody
Thursday, September 18th, 2003, 06:09 PM
Is it not so, Rahul, that Aryans began to see through any purported literalism of the Vedic gods thousands of years ago?
They then began to look into such valid philosophical concepts as Atman, long before western philosophers did so.

However, we cannot expect all men to be philosophers, and literalist religion is a necessity for some.
To that end, let those who adhere to such religions be guided to fight against the Judaic anti-Aryan deception and its inherent slavery.

Grimr
Thursday, September 18th, 2003, 07:35 PM
Have you ever thought that if you looked at the very core of Mars, that it might still be active, thus creating magnetism and such like, enough for a small form of life to live there, like a Martian worm? And then if you continued on such a path of thinking, through the theoretical and onto the theological you might wonder what if it could would this form of life worship?

This might seem a very odd idea, but it allows one to understand that religion is formed by a basic input and output of our primitive understandings and senses, for example; the worm is a simple creature it wiggles its body into the earth and creates holes thus a worm might worship hole formations if it had the memory to record such formations or it could worship a type of soil or even the vibrations in the earth?

As white people, being a very practical and honest race, it is sometimes hard for us to grasp the fact that religion is created by the input and output of a culture of creatures, worms or other races thus it is impossible for a plain of racial equilibrium.

Grimr
Thursday, September 18th, 2003, 07:35 PM
Have you ever thought that if you looked at the very core of Mars, that it might still be active, thus creating magnetism and such like, enough for a small form of life to live there, like a Martian worm? And then if you continued on such a path of thinking, through the theoretical and onto the theological you might wonder what if it could would this form of life worship?

This might seem a very odd idea, but it allows one to understand that religion is formed by a basic input and output of our primitive understandings and senses, for example; the worm is a simple creature it wiggles its body into the earth and creates holes thus a worm might worship hole formations if it had the memory to record such formations or it could worship a type of soil or even the vibrations in the earth?

As white people, being a very practical and honest race, it is sometimes hard for us to grasp the fact that religion is created by the input and output of a culture of creatures, worms or other races thus it is impossible for a plain of racial equilibrium.

torrent
Thursday, September 18th, 2003, 11:22 PM
This greatly-aspired ideal for a "god" is nothing but pure self-denial and self-deception. It appears in Arab and subsequently in all Islamists, as well as jewish prophets, this famed vision of God. This is an expression of the Magian will-to-extension, in Spenglerian terms.

The trouble is that most people are truly cowards that they cannot accept the idea that God does not exist as reality. For then they will not have anything to live by, no excuses for their depradations, no excuses for their befuddled acts etc.

Then finally but most important is the need to understand or at least respect if not entirely understood by the feeble grasp of mind of this age, of what our ancestors adhered to when they spoke or talked of a God. But the past is, it seems, lost, unlike the proud declaration at the bottom of link to this Forum.
I could have been wrong.

the origin of faith begins with the need of explanation. where do we go when we die?
those numbers depend on an ancient tradition called kabbalism. it is rather pythogarasian and bachaian. indeed the middle eastern mysticism and the fertility concept is very continuous. Holy Myriam is a fertility symbol too. she gave birth to (son of the God) for sure i am excluding nestorius and Arius.
Religion and dogmas, we perceive things a bit different than our ancestors. secularity is a totally new invention. in the old days religion is the life. it is politics, it is tradition, religious ways must be regarded in thier own conditions and their political inclinations should be considered. in that sense antireligionism is nothing but a political motivation and it is meaning lies in the social target of this policy.
a true sceptic would not claim the nonexistence of God so surely.
best regards

Rahul
Friday, September 19th, 2003, 09:04 AM
Is it not so, Rahul, that Aryans began to see through any purported literalism of the Vedic gods thousands of years ago?
They then began to look into such valid philosophical concepts as Atman, long before western philosophers did so.

However, we cannot expect all men to be philosophers, and literalist religion is a necessity for some.
To that end, let those who adhere to such religions be guided to fight against the Judaic anti-Aryan deception and its inherent slavery.

Personally, I do feel the unity of all expressions containing the manas' aspiration for natural and cosmic forces called the bright ones or the Devas.

And infact I do, like the Hiranyagarbha Sukta, realise a God of all Gods(Deveshvaadhideva), but its adherence does not involve any fanatical faith of the zealot. That zealot could be the Muslim, the deceptive jew, the crusading christian, the Hindu, or even the humane-sentimentalist communist/leftist 'liberal'.

I don't consider the God of All Gods to be anything meant specially for these human animals and not for those other animals. My lord of creation is for all, it is comprised of the known and the unknown.

Even as the Voluspa mentions at its end of the higher one from above, which reminds us of the Adhyaksha of the Paramevyoman(RV 10:129), we know that it exists but in form we know not and even that may know or know not!

The true Aryan ideal is of Satya and Reta. Without these two the Aryan cannot simply exist, the otherwise will only be his nihilist delusion. This is above the supreme as well. And conduct is the key in this realm, that in itself is a faith. To understand and strive for the Reta, we have guidance in the form of all the wealth of tradition and lores, from Aryaverta to Northvegr, from the Jaya to the Skadic Lores & of the Celts, of King Arthur and his Knights of the Round Table.

The Arya revers his forefathers, he sacrifices to his forefathers, his forefathers, his ancestry and blood is above the all-powerful God.

And most of all he even goes where his ancestors have gone before him, we know that. And following the fathers and ancestors, he can never be wrong.

The great divine ideal is simple, in my case. The Vedanta philosophising, the Yoga development, although no one admits, was a nihilist tendency.

It is still a hundred times dear to me than is a middle eastern Abrahmaic theology.

And mostly the modern man revels in the same god, adopting the same magian semitic will to extension, which was a product of the babylonian city-based inherently decadent civilisation.

The modern man has the same standard for life as was the standard for the Magian thinker. The modern man comprises of human-creatures in all lands and countries on this planet earth. When one is made to walk this path, herded into it, I cannot help but say that this herd's 'God'(read the elohe) does not exist.

Even the IE Persian word for god Khuda implies a multiple.

Jack
Friday, September 19th, 2003, 04:19 PM
Personally, I do feel the unity of all expressions containing the manas' aspiration for natural and cosmic forces called the bright ones or the Devas.

And infact I do, like the Hiranyagarbha Sukta, realise a God of all Gods(Deveshvaadhideva), but its adherence does not involve any fanatical faith of the zealot. That zealot could be the Muslim, the deceptive jew, the crusading christian, the Hindu, or even the humane-sentimentalist communist/leftist 'liberal'.

I don't consider the God of All Gods to be anything meant specially for these human animals and not for those other animals. My lord of creation is for all, it is comprised of the known and the unknown.

Even as the Voluspa mentions at its end of the higher one from above, which reminds us of the Adhyaksha of the Paramevyoman(RV 10:129), we know that it exists but in form we know not and even that may know or know not!

The true Aryan ideal is of Satya and Reta. Without these two the Aryan cannot simply exist, the otherwise will only be his nihilist delusion. This is above the supreme as well. And conduct is the key in this realm, that in itself is a faith. To understand and strive for the Reta, we have guidance in the form of all the wealth of tradition and lores, from Aryaverta to Northvegr, from the Jaya to the Skadic Lores & of the Celts, of King Arthur and his Knights of the Round Table.

The Arya revers his forefathers, he sacrifices to his forefathers, his forefathers, his ancestry and blood is above the all-powerful God.

And most of all he even goes where his ancestors have gone before him, we know that. And following the fathers and ancestors, he can never be wrong.

The great divine ideal is simple, in my case. The Vedanta philosophising, the Yoga development, although no one admits, was a nihilist tendency.

It is still a hundred times dear to me than is a middle eastern Abrahmaic theology.

And mostly the modern man revels in the same god, adopting the same magian semitic will to extension, which was a product of the babylonian city-based inherently decadent civilisation.

The modern man has the same standard for life as was the standard for the Magian thinker. The modern man comprises of human-creatures in all lands and countries on this planet earth. When one is made to walk this path, herded into it, I cannot help but say that this herd's 'God'(read the elohe) does not exist.

Even the IE Persian word for god Khuda implies a multiple.

I understood that :). One question though: Satya and Reta, what do those terms mean? My guess is something like Eternity and Tradition? Your help would be much appreciated.

Evolved
Monday, September 22nd, 2003, 02:30 AM
And verily, you will find them (the Jews) the greediest of mankind for life and (even greedier) than those who - ascribe partners to Allâh (and do not believe in Resurrection - Magians, pagans, and idolaters, etc.). Everyone of them wishes that he could be given a life of a thousand years. But the grant of such life will not save him even a little from (due) punishment. And Allâh is All-Seer of what they do....

...Is it not (the case) that every time they make a covenant, some party among them throw it aside? Nay! the truth is most of them believe not.

I'm convinced! :D Allahu Akbar! :worship

Jack
Monday, September 22nd, 2003, 05:22 AM
I'm convinced! :D Allahu Akbar! :worship

That's not funny, that's sick. At the Siege of Constantinople, ten thousand European knights fought over 80,000 Turks who had cannon. They lost. And the Turks killed 400,000 civilians afterwards. The Arabs and Berbers occupied Spain for over 500 years, and demanded 100 white Spanish virgins a year. At the Battle of Nicopolis, the Turks executed most of the European prisoners, after both sides lost c80,000 men. The Turks demanded a thousand European boys a year out of the Balkans to indoctrinate them in Islam and turn them into Janissaries.

Way to show your alliegences, Lady Goethe. I'm a quarter Spanish. I grew up amongst Greeks. I hate Turks. I know what side I'm on, and I don't go praising a semetic 'God' every time a part of their 'holy' text speaks out against the Jews. Did you know it also supports blood-mixing with slaves? And in context, did you know what means Mohammed said Muslims get double reward in heaven for screwing African slaves? You're sick. No one has explained why people here are fascinated about a dirty semite religion whose followers have brougth untold damage and destruction to our people. There are still over 20 million Muslims in Western Europe, and then you can add Bosnians and Albanians to the count. I knew there was something strange about you. I'm not a Christian but I sure as hell won't turn my back on my ancestors and accept brown faced towel-headed Muslims as my 'brothers'. Great to know you seem to see things differently.

Ken.

OnionPeeler
Monday, September 22nd, 2003, 06:06 AM
Aloha Snackbar to you too, LG33.

Satya and Reta are 'truth' and 'cosmic order' though these are simplifications. To this Rahul adds the third element, action, conduct. It is less about understanding the individual words than learning a little about the intertwining of the the existent, animate and the thoughtful. And here a knowledge of our past helps out.

We find it powerfully operable in ancient Aryans even when their mythology hadn't systmatized it. What is often mistaken as 'fatalism' in the ancient Greeks and Vikings is really part of a world view that is nearly lost today. Hector can not surrender to the Aecheans and still be Hector. It is not a death wish but a determination to serve honor (personal and 'cosmic'). To do otherwise would betray his ancestors and condemn his son.

There were attempts to define it. Rahul mentions the Yogas, three of which were the paths of faith, deed and knowledge. The Zoroastrian motto, Good Thought, Good Deed, Good Word reflects it.

To shorten what could take, well, a lifetime....

In a sense, it is a non-religious religion in that there's no need to call on the fantastic. Or a very religious religion in that requires serious faith in Rta, fanatical committment to right action and ruthless devotion to truth.

torrent
Monday, September 22nd, 2003, 10:55 AM
That's not funny, that's sick. At the Siege of Constantinople, ten thousand European knights fought over 80,000 Turks who had cannon. They lost. And the Turks killed 400,000 civilians afterwards. The Arabs and Berbers occupied Spain for over 500 years, and demanded 100 white Spanish virgins a year. At the Battle of Nicopolis, the Turks executed most of the European prisoners, after both sides lost c80,000 men. The Turks demanded a thousand European boys a year out of the Balkans to indoctrinate them in Islam and turn them into Janissaries.

Way to show your alliegences, Lady Goethe. I'm a quarter Spanish. I grew up amongst Greeks. I hate Turks. I know what side I'm on, and I don't go praising a semetic 'God' every time a part of their 'holy' text speaks out against the Jews. Did you know it also supports blood-mixing with slaves? And in context, did you know what means Mohammed said Muslims get double reward in heaven for screwing African slaves? You're sick. No one has explained why people here are fascinated about a dirty semite religion whose followers have brougth untold damage and destruction to our people. There are still over 20 million Muslims in Western Europe, and then you can add Bosnians and Albanians to the count. I knew there was something strange about you. I'm not a Christian but I sure as hell won't turn my back on my ancestors and accept brown faced towel-headed Muslims as my 'brothers'. Great to know you seem to see things differently.

Ken.

hello aloysha,
you have several points Islam is radical equalitarian who sees no difference between rich and poor and against slavery. freeing slaves was a big target of Islam and Islamic frontiers had a lot of populism on slaves.
there is one thing i did not understand why ten thousand soldiers were defending constantinople, were greeks so few in number? and 400000 civilians were they in constantinople so turks killed them right after the siege? why did not they fght? how much does it take to kill 400000 civilians and why stay civil in times of war? a bunch of civilians who had not seen an arrow all their lives? from the founders of math i would at least expect them to be able to use an arrow. do not sublook an arrow, it is a product of technology, it is hard to achieve a stable arrow who follows a straight way with minimum air resistance.
how many men does it take to kill 400 000 people i guess turks were far more crowded than greeks that would be inconsistent with other greek proposals that turks are greek bastards. or do we assume that greeks (a culture of thousand years) in a few decades forgot greek and became turkicized and killed thier cousins?
say you are taken at the age of 6-11 from your parents would you forget the whole parental language? what kind of a language is this?
we may go on later.
best regards

Jack
Monday, September 22nd, 2003, 01:07 PM
hello aloysha,
you have several points Islam is radical equalitarian who sees no difference between rich and poor and against slavery. freeing slaves was a big target of Islam and Islamic frontiers had a lot of populism on slaves.
there is one thing i did not understand why ten thousand soldiers were defending constantinople, were greeks so few in number? and 400000 civilians were they in constantinople so turks killed them right after the siege? why did not they fght? how much does it take to kill 400000 civilians and why stay civil in times of war? a bunch of civilians who had not seen an arrow all their lives? from the founders of math i would at least expect them to be able to use an arrow. do not sublook an arrow, it is a product of technology, it is hard to achieve a stable arrow who follows a straight way with minimum air resistance.
how many men does it take to kill 400 000 people i guess turks were far more crowded than greeks that would be inconsistent with other greek proposals that turks are greek bastards. or do we assume that greeks (a culture of thousand years) in a few decades forgot greek and became turkicized and killed thier cousins?
say you are taken at the age of 6-11 from your parents would you forget the whole parental language? what kind of a language is this?
we may go on later.
best regards

The Greek (Byzantine) Armies were largely depleted - as usually happens towards the end of a Civilization, they weren't breeding a great deal, they had lost a lot of the agricultural territory in Anatolia to the Turks. The elites (the very intelligent sections of the population) had few children, and the Empire slowly declined. Late Roman (i.e. Byzantine) Civilization was heavily religious, and was fertile ground for Islamic fanaticism, though patriotism and nationality was tied to Orthodox Christianity which prevented total cultural take over. Taking a child who is raised in a thoroughly religous atmosphere from his parents and raising him in a Janissary academy is possible. Towards the fall of the Ottoman Empire though, the Janissaries revolted against Turkey several times (recognising their own roots?), and they were violently suppressed. The Turks killed the 400,000 after the European fighters were killed off. So yes, when they lost, they were annihilated. About parental religion, I've heard that if you move to a foreign country before you reach 13 you will adopt that accent and keep it for the rest of your life. I've got a friend at school who moved from Ireland to Australia three years ago, and he still talks with a heavy accent. Aquiring another language, being raised amongst a nationality different from your parents, beign indoctrinated to a new religion certainly adds to a growing chasm between yourself and your native nationality.

torrent
Monday, September 22nd, 2003, 02:16 PM
The Greek (Byzantine) Armies were largely depleted - as usually happens towards the end of a Civilization, they weren't breeding a great deal, they had lost a lot of the agricultural territory in Anatolia to the Turks. The elites (the very intelligent sections of the population) had few children, and the Empire slowly declined. Late Roman (i.e. Byzantine) Civilization was heavily religious, and was fertile ground for Islamic fanaticism, though patriotism and nationality was tied to Orthodox Christianity which prevented total cultural take over. Taking a child who is raised in a thoroughly religous atmosphere from his parents and raising him in a Janissary academy is possible. Towards the fall of the Ottoman Empire though, the Janissaries revolted against Turkey several times (recognising their own roots?), and they were violently suppressed. The Turks killed the 400,000 after the European fighters were killed off. So yes, when they lost, they were annihilated. About parental religion, I've heard that if you move to a foreign country before you reach 13 you will adopt that accent and keep it for the rest of your life. I've got a friend at school who moved from Ireland to Australia three years ago, and he still talks with a heavy accent. Aquiring another language, being raised amongst a nationality different from your parents, beign indoctrinated to a new religion certainly adds to a growing chasm between yourself and your native nationality.
hello aloysha,
especially what you say about the fall of greek empire is what i would agree. byzance was already decaying when turks came there. in fact the decline of turks began after the conquer of the byzance the decaying soul of byzance influenced the turks, that decaying soul was supressed for a hundred years but decay had begun and lasted for long.
when Istanbul fell it was inhabited by 55 thousands of people such a miserable number for what remains from an empire. under the rule of mehmet ll ıstanbul reached a population of 300.000, the last glorious days of a maiden of ages. the armenian patriarchy was formed by mehmet ll and was moved to istanbul. massacres may have happen here or there but the people of Istanbul was carefull preserved to continue the international design of Istanbul wheres oon the safardic who were expelled from spain were incorporated too. i can tell you that you may feel better the people of Istanbul were preserved and not destroyed.
best regards

Loki
Monday, September 22nd, 2003, 03:12 PM
Way to show your alliegences, Lady Goethe.

Ken, I believe ladygoeth33 was joking. :) You cannot blame her or Islam for what the Turks have done more than 5 centuries ago. That is a bit extreme. Sometimes we need to lighten up serious discussions with a smile or two :)

Jack
Monday, September 22nd, 2003, 06:19 PM
Loki - :D Thought so, but the philosemetism was getting a bit over-the-top. And some of LG's posts are disturbing, lol.

Asparukh, for the same reasons I won't call the country which has recently been torched by Mugabe by its modern name, but instead Rhodesia, I still call that city Constantinople, regardless of its modern Turkish name. Pride :) Perhaps Constantinople wasn't as severely crushed as I had the impression, yet a great European city was lost to the Turks, who then went on to maul a large section of Europe.


You cannot blame... Islam for what the Turks have done more than 5 centuries ago.

I just did. The battle of Badr, a much celebrated event in the Qu'ran, was an attack by Mohammed and his followers against an unarmed caravan convoy heading into Mecca. The city guard came out, there was a battle, Mohammed's forces won, and it is glorified. If Islam is not a warlike, barbarian semite religion, I'm not sure what it is. Without Islam, the Turks would've never done it. Without the Turks, Islam would've taken another tribe and forged it into an action unit to accomplish its ends.


You cannot blame her... for what the Turks have done more than 5 centuries ago.

"Allahu Akbar!" - LG33. ;) I didn't blame her for it. But the comment, from my viewpoint, was in bad taste. That's all.

Evolved
Tuesday, September 23rd, 2003, 03:09 AM
:calm

Perhaps my posts which favor Turks over Greeks bother you. We all have our preferences it seems. :)

I'm not going to jump on the anti-Turk hate train, I don't see the point. How far are we going to take the past injustices theme? Are UPs going to start hating Neolithics?

All people are capable of being barbaric and stupid. I'm not making excuses for that kind of behavior no matter who it is.

I went to the Aloha Snackbar yesterday. Great pineapple there. :)

Jack
Tuesday, September 23rd, 2003, 04:36 AM
lol. It's ok, but yes, I do prefer Greeks over Turks. Ah well :)

Vojvoda
Tuesday, September 23rd, 2003, 04:50 AM
The Balkan kingdoms and principalities did not fall right away to the Ottoman Turks.The Serbian Kingdom disintegrated 100 years after the battle of Kosovo in 1389.After Czar Lazar was killed the Serbian despots were feuding amongst each other for control of the kingdom.Vlad Tepes gave the Ottomans much trouble as well.

People forget that the Ottoman conquest of the Balkans was a significant part of history.Christopher Columbus "found" a new route to India...

torrent
Tuesday, September 23rd, 2003, 10:39 AM
hello,
i will ty my post to be replies to several posts.

as generalizations get commoner, the deduction part gets longer if this elongation is not done , it will be superficial.

*you cannot blame... Islam for what the Turks have done more than 5 centuries ago.
I just did. The battle of Badr, a much celebrated event in the Qu'ran, was an attack by Mohammed and his followers against an unarmed caravan convoy heading into Mecca. The city guard came out, there was a battle, Mohammed's forces won, and it is glorified. If Islam is not a warlike, barbarian semite religion, I'm not sure what it is. Without Islam, the Turks would've never done it. Without the Turks, Islam would've taken another tribe and forged it into an action unit to accomplish its ends*
indeed i am not sure when you say islam. islam world has many diversities. i do not know if the same situation goes for christians too. the early islamic settlements were done in egypt and syria so the remains of the paraohs and the syrian grecobyzantins were the first christianized. the first islamic state the umayya (the ones in spain are a part of them) is indeed rather grekopersian in bureaucracy. the islamic writers blame the umayyas turning the democratic federalist islamic state into a grecopersian empire. the nestorious seperation indeed helped the islamization of the area. arameans played an important role because these people who wer christianized in an eraly era had close connections with greeks and with the islamization of them the greek cultural products which ahd been already transslated into aramaic was translated in to arabic which is a close relative of aramaic. at the same time the neoplatonic influences began. the islamization of turks are later than the islamization of iranians. indeed the islamization of turks are done by persians mostly. the common religious words in turkish are persian in origin.
for the inspiration of ideal states platon is the source. the christian church is the isntitutionalized form of the philosopher ruler of platon, in shiite islam imamu masum is a personalized from of this philosopher. indeed what the tribal chiefs of turks brought to islam at a degree looks like the early christianization of various nomadic tribes in the north. for the turks a stable solution was created in the 16th century. since tradition is important for a tribal chief(because he gains his power from this tradition not by RAb) at first the conflict was between the men for other world and the men for this world. sultan Mehmet as a rule said that if the government encounters a problem which is related with the material world and if it is not clear what religion says, staying loyal to religious principle you can use tradition as a solution. he ,who was confident in his own powere, found an earthly solution for the problems and in a way introduced laicism and freed himself from a foreing ruler in disguise of religion. here what we see is the usage of relgion as a polcy to rule over nations. he was a true believer as perhaps kalven is, at least in their own ways. the introduction of national churches functionally served the same ideal.
badr war well it was done after muslims were exiled from mecca and muslims gained powere out of kabe and sieged macca. in a desrt you do not need to run a circle around a city, just to watch the movement is a good idea. and yes it was a great victory. btw that caravan convoy belonged to the father of the later umayya rulers. the warliklyness of islam is usually the period till 750 AD. those days one of the atraction of islam(besides it is interior design) was a the offering of a stable state where rules are certain and the ruler of the country had to obey the words of a higher being which would mean that the farmers are safe from raids and caravans could walk free. and i do doubt that thor and corded ware people were farmers and first christians were scandinavians. btw if you are not interested in islam and all you need is general prejudices please let us not go further, for in the next step i will have to tell you the tevvabun (repentants)
who gave rise to shiites and olcayto a later mongolian empre who was shiite, and the mevali (folks movement) .

you said you were groewn among greeks, hmm. i infact, i doubt that LG has thought clearly if she preferred greeks to turks. a pushing for a quick answer was indeed unnecessary.

for Ottoman in balkans, we are talking about a precapitalistic form of colonization where in fact monetary system is backwards for the introduction of preciaous metals from the new world has not taken place and the all feodalistic precapitalistic states are depending on the usage of arable land and the transfer of the redundant production to the government. the reduncancy is relative vision and this was the main resaon of conflicts in the feodals. if we define istanbul as a center of gravity the lebensraum of Istanbul was balkans untill the alps region and central anatolia untill the high grounds. feeding of the industrialists (precapitalistic so may be called primitive superficially) and traders and the expenses of a government which had to be pouplistic and had to cake care of roads and waterways large arable land was needed.
indeed, ottoman were imperials and colonials on the Balkans but since mining and exploting the naturals sources for industry was not yet invented the soil was the one and only source so it had to be taken care of.
so the policy of Ottoman was not wasting men or oppressing them inorder to avoid the lowering in the production rates. so thos estories of big massacres, virgins etc are indeed far away from reality and why a hunred virgins why not a thousand?
another thing that is usually not much talked is the presence of petchenegs and kumans in balkans. we know their presence because otherwise alparslan could not win over the byzantines. the asen family of the second bulgarian kingdom were half kumans. indeed this part is mot much talked about for whatever the reason is these kumanids were not or slightly mongoloid (not more than any average bell beaker celtic) so it seriously damages the thoery that turkish presence in balkans is limited to turanids.
i have seen illustrations of tepec. what is the meaning of tepez,c?

Vojvoda
Tuesday, September 23rd, 2003, 03:09 PM
ottoman were imperials and colonials on the Balkans but since mining and exploting the naturals sources for industry was not yet invented the soil was the one and only source so it had to be taken care of.

i have seen illustrations of tepec. what is the meaning of tepez,c?

You mean mining was not yet invented? Correct me if I am wrong. As far as I know the mines in the Balkans are probably the oldest in Europe.People from all over Europe settled there to work in the mines , including thousands of Saxons that settled in the Sumadija region.

A little bit about Vlad Dracula(son of Dragon) the Impaler(tsepesh) who was part of the Societatis Draconistrarum-Order of the Dragon:


"In 1462 Dracula fled to Transylvania to seek the aid of the King of Hungary when a Turkish army overwhelmed Wallachia. Instead of receiving the assistance he expected Dracula was imprisoned by the Hungarian king. He remained a prisoner of Matthias Corvinus of Hungary for several years. For most of the period of Dracula's incarceration his brother, Radu the Handsome, ruled Wallachia as a puppet of the Ottoman sultan. When Radu died (ca. 1474-1475) the sultan appointed Basarab the Old, a member of the Danesti clan, as prince.

Eventually, Dracula regained the favor and support of the Hungarian king. In 1476 he once again invaded Wallachia. His small force consisted of a few loyal Wallachians, a contingent of Moldavians sent by his cousin Prince Stephen the Great of Moldavia, and a contingent of Transylvanians under their prince, Stephen Bathory. The allies succeeded in driving Basarab out of the country and placing Dracula on the throne (November 1476). However, after Dracula was once again in control, Stephen Bathory returned to Transylvania taking most of Dracula's army with him. The Turks soon counterattacked with overwhelming force. Dracula was killed fighting the Turks near Bucharest in December of 1476. His head was sent to Constantinople where the Sultan had it displayed on a stake to prove that the terrible Impaler was really dead."

Yes, you are right about the Petchenegs and Kumans in the Balkans.Wasn't Asparukh(Gasparuk) a Kuman?

torrent
Tuesday, September 23rd, 2003, 03:34 PM
about the mines sure they are oldest but still they were not used so agressively becuase they were old they had been used for ages especially the urartus in anatola were excellent miners. there are mountains of lead and cupper remnants in antolia. i mean it was nevr utilized like the iron and coal in the ruhr valley. or as told in that novel so green was my valley(well it is a retranslation the original name must be sth like that
btw why is he named basarab, what is the origin of that danesti tribe?

Vojvoda
Tuesday, September 23rd, 2003, 04:07 PM
about the mines sure they are oldest but still they were not used so agressively becuase they were old they had been used for ages especially the urartus in anatola were excellent miners. there are mountains of lead and cupper remnants in antolia. i mean it was nevr utilized like the iron and coal in the ruhr valley. or as told in that novel so green was my valley(well it is a retranslation the original name must be sth like that
btw why is he named basarab, what is the origin of that danesti tribe?

I'm sure the Rembas coal mine in Serbia was in use during the Ottoman period.My ancestors on my paternal side were all miners.

Not sure, Basarab family was divided into two clans, Danesti and Draculesti.They were probably Hungarian in origin but what do I know?:)

Unregistered
Wednesday, September 24th, 2003, 01:42 PM
I'm sure the Rembas coal mine in Serbia was in use during the Ottoman period.My ancestors on my paternal side were all miners.

Not sure, Basarab family was divided into two clans, Danesti and Draculesti.They were probably Hungarian in origin but what do I know?:)

really? basarab is a quite turkish name, an avar name.

torrent
Wednesday, September 24th, 2003, 02:00 PM
really? the name basarab is quite turkish. what does danesti mean in slavic.

Stríbog
Wednesday, September 24th, 2003, 10:57 PM
really? the name basarab is quite turkish. what does danesti mean in slavic.

Danesti sounds Romanian and not Slavic to me. Don't forget we are talking about a region where Hungary and Romania meet, so linguistically it's not Slavic at all.

Evolved
Thursday, September 25th, 2003, 02:01 AM
The International Community of Submitters - The followers of the false prophet Rashad Khalifa who rejected both the Qur'an and the Sunnah. This cult is marked by their obsession with the number 19.

The International Community of Submitters

The Submitters are followers of the late Rashad Khalifa, a man who claimed to be a Messenger of Allah. This claim in itself is sufficient to remove the Submitters from Islam as the Qur'an states (translation):

"O people! Muhammad has no sons among ye men, but verily, he is the Messenger of Allah and the last in the line of Prophets. And Allah is aware of everything." (33:40)

The true Prophet of Islam, Muhammad :saw , observed:

"The tribe of Israel was guided by prophets. When a prophet passed away, another succeeded him. But no prophet will come after me; only caliphs will succeed me." (Sahih Bukhari)

Much of Rashad Khalifa's misguidance can be traced to his obsession with numerology, an obsession which has misguided many different people throughout history. Khalifa alleged that the Qur'an contained a mathematical code which revolved around the number 19. He went to the extent of removing two verses from the Qur'an because according to him "the word `God' ... is not a multiple of 19, unless we remove [it]", and the "sum of all verse numbers where the word `God' occurs is ... 19x6217 ... If the false verse 9:129 is included, this phenomenon disappears." By rejecting a single verse of the Qur'an, the Submitters bring themselves under the judgement of another verse,

... Do you believe in part of the Book and disbelieve in another part? And what is the reward of those who do so save ignominy in the life of the world, and on the Day of Resurrection they will be consigned to the most grievous doom ... (2:85)

It is interesting to note that Khalifa was a numerologist who did his blighted profession justice: he predicted the end of the world. However, Allah says in the Qur'an:


They ask you about the (last) hour, when will be its taking place? Say: The knowledge of it is only with my Lord; none but He shall manifest it at its time; it will be momentous in the heavens and the earth; it will not come on you but of a sudden. They ask you as if you were solicitous about it. Say: Its knowledge is only with Allah, but most people do not know. (7:187)

The Submitters also reject the Sunnah of Prophet Muhammad :saw - not part of it, but the whole of it. For the Submitters, the Sunnah is not a source of Islam. The problems this presents are overwhelming, for by doing so the Submitters have effectively destroyed their ability to perform:

Salaat (obligatory prayers), the second pillar of Islam
Zakat (obligatory tax), the third pillar of Islam
Sawm (fasting), the fourth pillar of Islam
Hajj (pilgrimage), the fifth pillar of Islam

With four out of the five pillars of Islam removed, the Submitters have little to back their claim to being "Muslim". The true Messenger of Islam :saw warned Muslims of falling into this trap,

Narrated AbuRafi':
The Prophet :saw said: "Let me not find one of you reclining on his couch when he hears something regarding me which I have commanded or forbidden [i.e. from the Sunnah -ed.] and saying: 'We do not know. What we found in Allah's Book [i.e. the Qur'an] we have followed.'" Book 40, Number 4588 of Sunan Abu-Dawud.

Vojvoda
Thursday, September 25th, 2003, 03:41 PM
really? the name basarab is quite turkish. what does danesti mean in slavic.

You mean Ba-Sarab? No, Danesti is not Slavic.Transylvania,or Erdely, is quite mixed, ethnically and sub-racially,Slavs,Hungarians,Germans,Slovak s , Romanians etc..They could have been an Avar family.This Serb from northern Vojvodina looks peculiar, what do you think he is, asparukh?

http://www.psg.fr/fr/club/current_team_toplevel/boskovic.jpg

Stríbog
Thursday, September 25th, 2003, 05:21 PM
You mean Ba-Sarab? No, Danesti is not Slavic.Transylvania,or Erdely, is quite mixed, ethnically and sub-racially,Slavs,Hungarians,Germans,Slovak s , Romanians etc..They could have been an Avar family.This Serb from northern Vojvodina looks peculiar, what do you think he is, asparukh?

http://www.psg.fr/fr/club/current_team_toplevel/boskovic.jpg

He looks Hun/Avar to me.

Akimo
Thursday, September 25th, 2003, 08:53 PM
Would it be far-fetched to believe that there is indeed one God and that He has for Himself made a race/s?

Although most of us are of a pure, noble and supreme race, I fear in our pride and arrogance we may lose sight of the One that created us to be so?

I do not believe in Allah, and 19 has always ben my unlucky numer.


How bout 13? 13 works. Or 3... 3 is nice...

Maybe mathematics is a kind of religion? One designed to make itself a god and lead man to blieve that it is the true god and not our original Creator! HA-HA

:)

Loki
Thursday, September 25th, 2003, 09:09 PM
Would it be far-fetched to believe that there is indeed one God and that He has for Himself made a race/s?





Not at all. :) We all know very well that the Jews are God's Chosen People, and to disagree with this is an unforgivable sin. ;) :D

Akimo
Thursday, September 25th, 2003, 09:31 PM
Hehehe

Oh yes eternal damnation and hellfire to anyone who would think otherwise! :)

But maybe the Jews are a god's chosen nation...
If you consider Lucifer to be a god...

Tryggvi
Friday, September 26th, 2003, 12:10 AM
Khalifa alleged that the Qur'an contained a mathematical code which revolved around the number 19. He went to the extent of removing two verses from the Qur'an because according to him "the word `God' ... is not a multiple of 19, unless we remove ", and the "sum of all verse numbers where the word `God' occurs is ... 19x6217 ... If the false verse 9:129 is included, this phenomenon disappears."

Nineteen years after the Prophet Muhammad's :saw death, during the reign of Khalifa `Uthman, a committee of scribes was appointed to make several copies of the Quran to be dispatched to the new Muslim lands.

This committee was supervised by `Uthman Ibn `Affaan, `Ali Ibn Abi Taaleb, Zeid Ibn Thaabet, Ubayy Ibn Ka`ab, `Abdullah Ibn Al-Zubair, Sa`eed Ibn Al-`Aas, and `Abdul Rahman Ibn Al-Haareth Ibn Heshaam. The last sura revealed in Medina was Sura 9. Only Sura 110, a very short sura, was revealed after Sura 9, in Mina.

The committee of scribes finally came to Sura 9, and put it in its proper place. One of the scribes suggested adding a couple of verses to honor the Prophet :saw. The majority of scribes agreed. `Ali was outraged. He vehemently maintained that the word of God, written down by the hand of His final prophet :saw, must never be altered.

Ali's protest is documented in many references, cited and reproduced here the classic reference AL ITQAAN FEE 'ULUM AL QURAN by Jalaluddin Al-Suyuty, Al-Azhareyyah Press, Cairo, Egypt, 1318 AH, Page 59:


http://www.submission.org/images/hadith.GIF
Translation: `Ali was asked: [i]"Why are you staying home?" He said, "Something has been added to the Quran, and I have pledged never to put on my street clothes, except for the prayer, until the Quran is restored."

The last two verses of Sura 9 which are labeled in the traditional Quran printings as "Meccan" were always suspect. Any one may ask how could a Medinan Sura contain Meccan verses, when the universal convention has been to label as Medinan all revelations after the Prophet's :saw hegira from Mecca?

The hadith says that those two verses were found only with Khuzeimah Ibn Thaabet Al-Ansaary. How could Meccan verses be found with a Medinan Muslim?

It is known that every single verse in the Quran was verified by a multiplicity of witnesses except for those two verses. Why the scribes who were in charge to make copies of the Quran accepted this exception?

Let us examine the story related by al-Bukhari about the collection of the Quran during the Caliphate of Abu Bakr.

Zaid ibn Thabit says: "So I pursued collecting the Quran from bare palm branches, thin, flat, white stones, and the hearts of men until I found the end of Surat al-Tawba with Abu Khuzaima al-Ansari. I did not find it with anyone other than him: Indeed a messenger has come to you from among yourselves. Your suffering is hard on him... to the conclusion of Baraa" (al-Bukhari, Matn vol. 3, 225).

In the Itqan, Al-Suyuti discussed the number of witnesses and quoted the following from Ibn Ashta's Kitab al-Masahif:

"The people would come to Zaid ibn Thabit and he would only write a verse from two upright witnesses. Even though the end of Sura al-Baraa was not found except with Khuzaima ibn Thabit, he said: Write it, for God's messenger :saw made his testimony as the testimony of two men. So it was written, even though Umar brought the verse of stoning and it was not written because he was alone." (Ibn Ashta in Al-Suyuti vol. 1,58).

19 years after the death of Muhammed :saw, the scribes wanted to honor the prophet :saw by adding two fake verses at the end of Sura 9. Ali was outraged and vehemently maintained that the word of God, written down by the hand of His final prophet :saw, must never be altered. When he was installed as the fourth Khalifa, a 50-year war erupted between the new Khalifa and his supporters on one side, and the distorters of the Quran on the other side. The distorters of the Quran finally won the war, and the "official" history that came to us represented the victors' point of view.

The first peacetime ruler after this lengthy and disastrous war was Marwan Ibn Al Hakam (died 65 AH/684 AD). One of the first duties he performed was to destroy the original Quran, "fearing it might become the cause of new disputes".

The question an intelligent person must ask is: "If the original Quran were identical to the Quran in circulation at that time, why did Marwan Ibn Al-Hakam have to destroy it?"

The mathematical discoveries proved beyond any doubt that the verses [9:128-129], as always suspected, are an addition and not from God. The documented history of the writing of the Quran always doubted these two verses and there was no solid proof until the mathematical miracle of the Quran brought one.

1400 years ago God told His true believers to follow only the Quran or else they will lose. Then God, the knower of the future, refused to post His name in the Basmallah on top of Sura 9. It is the only Sura that does not begin with: "In the name of God ..."

Excerpts From:
http://www.submission.org/tampering.html
http://www.submission.org/false-verses.html

Evolved
Friday, September 26th, 2003, 01:10 AM
Shh.. :hush You're giving away our secret Quranic scholar identities. :read :worship

torrent
Friday, September 26th, 2003, 09:34 PM
Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally Posted by providenje
You mean Ba-Sarab? No, Danesti is not Slavic.Transylvania,or Erdely, is quite mixed, ethnically and sub-racially,Slavs,Hungarians,Germans,Slovak s , Romanians etc..They could have been an Avar family.This Serb from northern Vojvodina looks peculiar, what do you think he is, asparukh?

http://www.psg.fr/fr/club/current_t...el/boskovic.jpg
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


He looks Hun/Avar to me.

__________________
i took some to think so please excuse me for my delayed answer, indeed i am at loss for words after i have seen loubeauty, (in fact with a kind of new sight, recently), (the lady who was classified as protoeuropid by polak) , i would say he is some sort of kurganid, so he may be possibly original slavic or avar for it seems kurganids were absorbed by both populations. what makes me confused is obercassell is indeed very mediterranean long face, dolichocephaly.
it is highly probable danesti were perhaps wallachian sometimes they have interestingly altaic names. there are strange eurasiatic words for example the altaic correspondent of leopard is loobars (ancient), yolbars which means as a totem roadfriend. the word used for sun in asia is kun, gun, kin (japanese) is almost the same in many amerinds.
best regards

Stríbog
Friday, September 26th, 2003, 09:56 PM
You copied my post verbatim. ;)

Iron Fist
Saturday, September 27th, 2003, 06:20 AM
Islam is lifted heavily from Judaism and Christianity, as well as the native pagan belief of the Sabeans and their Al-lat moon-god faith.

Evolved
Saturday, September 27th, 2003, 07:11 AM
Then I take it you won't be circulating around the Ka'bah with me and Imam Thorburn? :(

Siegfried
Saturday, October 11th, 2003, 01:32 PM
I haven't read the entire thread, so forgive me if this has been mentioned before, but this Rashad Khalifa had to remove two verses of Sura 9 from the Qur'an (claiming it was a 'blasphemous addition'), as these verses disrupted the 'divine structure' of the Qur'an. :anieyes Anyone can find a mathematical structure in any text if he/she is allowed to cut verses.
It's crap, IMHO.

civan
Friday, March 31st, 2006, 03:21 PM
http://www.simetrikkitap.com/images/simetrik_kitap_en.jpg





In the name of Allah, Most Gracious, Most Merciful.


Quran is the book of Allah that was announced by revelations to Muhammad (p.b.u.h), Prophet, in 23 years of his prophet hood. It starts with the opening chapter al-Fatiha and ended with the chapter of al-Nas. Since the revelations were made it has been transmitted from one generation to another by way of both in written and orally.

The exalted Allah regards himself as superior on mathematics stating in a chapter that:

And Sufficient are We as a Reckoner (Al-Anbiya/47)

In another chapter He states that his calculation is infallible:

Certainly, Allah is Ever a Careful Reckoner of all things (Al-Nisa/86)

By another chapter he let us know that He is the fastest in calculations:


He is the Swiftest among the Reckoners! (Al-Anam/62)

There is no wonder that He, who is very sure of Himself on calculation, organized a book that is called by His name in a way that it attracts attention of the people who have knowledge about mathematics.

We are observing the transcendental knowledge of Allah on mathematics in every point of the universe. The human race makes use of mathematics as it studies substance. The wondering admiration of mankind that it feels for its Creator has been increased as it has figured out the art that has been engraved in everything created by Allah.

Why dont we make a similar kind of investigation which we have made on his creatures also on his Book which was sent by the same Essence? This study herein has been prepared by setting out from this starting point.

Symmetric Book 1 constitutes some part of the studies that we have made in this field. As the expression of symmetric is the result of our mathematical researches on the Holy Quran it is the specification which was used by Allah who sent the Holy Quran by himself for his own book at the same time:


Allah has sent down the best Statement as a binary symmetric book. The skins of those who fear their Lord shiver from it. Then their skin and their heart soften to the remembrance of Allah. That is the guidance of Allah. He Guides therewith whom He wills; and whomever Allah sends astray, for him there is no guide. (Al-Zumar/23)

Binary Symmetric Book 1 consists of establishments at a level so that everyone whether is on good terms with the figures or not can get benefit. The analyses were performed by only using the four arithmetical operations. Any result that is an outcome of advance mathematics is not included in this book on purposely.

Surahs which are regarded as randomly sorted at the first glance expose an extraordinary order according to the investigations. A stupendous numerical construction is seemed to be hided behind the scene as dispersed as possible.

Responding the number of ayats of the surahs which are seemed to be dispersed randomly, to different numerical analysis and exposing a symmetric balance every time, consist of the appearance of the existent relation between the numbers. Although we do not know what sort of a relation is this and how it has been constructed yet, we can observe the results clearly.

The possibility of the establishment of this incredible harmony of various numbers of the 114 surahs, by someone during the time when Holy Qur’an had sent down is meaningless; since such mathematical approaches are not known by anyone in the world during that time.

Only Allah is left, who had sent down the Holy Qur'an and had undertaken its collection (Al-Qiyamah/17) and protection (Al-Hijr/9); Allah himself must have provided such an exceptional structure for His book.

One of the proofs is the clear declaration that was given by Allah about the numerical order which the Holy Qur'an contains as a book:
“Allah has sent down the best Statement as a binary symmetric book.” (Al-Zumar/23)

The wording of the figures is simple and clear. If this numerical construction is just a hallucination that we have seen or wish to see, it is easy to ascertain this case: If there are errors in the calculations, then they can be figured out and that is it. This is not a fact that we are afraid of, just the opposite, the main purpose of this survey is to attract the attention of the people who has mathematical knowledge to Allah’s book.

My belief is that, the ones who refer to the Holy Qur’an to check the symmetrical overlappings that were set forth will recognize that the determinations in the symmetric book 1, are only the visualized part of the ice-berg.




Topics of the Book:

• Odd and Even Numbers
• Surahs of which the number of ayats are greater than sequence number
• Surahs of which the number of ayats are smaller than sequence number
• Prime Numbers
• Sequence Numbers Set and Number of Ayats Set
• The numbers which are divided by two and not divided by three
• The numbers which are divided by three and not divided by two
• The numbers which are neither divisible by two nor by three
• The numbers which are divisible by two and three
• The numbers which are divisible by two
• The numbers which are divisible by three
• Sum of the Prime Factors
• Perfect Numbers
• Abundant Numbers
• Deficient Numbers

www.symmetricbook.com


Salam


key words: The amazing Quran Qur'an Holy Koran miracle of Quran miracles in Quran miracles of islam symmetric book miracle of 19 Dr. Eng. Halis Aydemir ikili simetrik kitap kuran mucizeleri kur'an kerim

Peter
Sunday, November 26th, 2006, 10:20 PM
Well, I prefer not commeting the thread, it´s so funny, I am a catholic christian and I am with Jack, he is very right.