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norda
Friday, September 12th, 2003, 12:47 PM
Some Kashubian types -modern

http://www.zk-p.pl/xoops/modules/myalbum/viewcat.php?cid=10&min=10&orderby=titleA&show=10

and older :D

http://www.karwia.pl/sfoto/galeria2.htm

Polak
Saturday, September 13th, 2003, 04:29 AM
Welcome to the forum.

Yes, many Kashubs look very Nordic. But many also look East Baltic.

The most Nordic part of Poland is, IMO, Wielkopolska. :)

norda
Thursday, September 25th, 2003, 08:41 AM
I do not know on which sources you base. The most blond part of Poland is evidently Kashubia-Pomerania. According to Prussian statistic only 3 counties in northern Poznan province (Wagrowiec, Szubin, Oborniki) was equally blond as Pomerania/West Prussia (over 40% of pure blonds, and less than 10% of brunets). Also the average height grow from south to north.
Regards from norda



Welcome to the forum.

Yes, many Kashubs look very Nordic. But many also look East Baltic.

The most Nordic part of Poland is, IMO, Wielkopolska. :)

Loki
Thursday, September 25th, 2003, 08:52 AM
Welcome, norda!

Very nice pictures, and interesting information about these folk.

@ Polak - do you know if this "Wielkopolska" has any relation to the area where the "Wielbark" Gothic culture appeared?

norda
Thursday, September 25th, 2003, 10:34 AM
The name Wielkopolska means Greater Poland (heart of Poland) and have nothing to do with the name Wielbark (after the archeological site at Wielbark). Gothic Wielbark culture was a common in northern Poland and included also a northern part of Wielkopolska/ Poznan province. There are some links to the gothic culture in Pomerania- of course archeological and also in the names of places like Oksywie, Hela etc. Moreover the area and folk around Tczew- Starogard on the south of Gdansk have had a common name Kociewie (Gociewie) still.

some pictures of gothic stone circles in Pomerania:
http://www.zk-p.pl/xoops/modules/myalbum/viewcat.php?cid=34

Wielbark culture info:
http://www.muzarp.poznan.pl/archweb/gazociag/title5.htm



Welcome, norda!

Very nice pictures, and interesting information about these folk.

@ Polak - do you know if this "Wielkopolska" has any relation to the area where the "Wielbark" Gothic culture appeared?

Polak
Thursday, September 25th, 2003, 02:44 PM
I do not know on which sources you base. The most blond part of Poland is evidently Kashubia-Pomerania. According to Prussian statistic only 3 counties in northern Poznan province (Wagrowiec, Szubin, Oborniki) was equally blond as Pomerania/West Prussia (over 40% of pure blonds, and less than 10% of brunets). Also the average height grow from south to north.
Regards from norda


Extreme blondism need not be a Nordic trait, as you may be aware.

In fact, the blondest populations in Europe are East Baltic, or at least partly East Baltic.

Nordics, on the other hand, are often dark ashen and brown haired.

Also, stature in Poland does not have a north-south gradient any longer. It is influenced by socio-economic conditions rather than geography, as latest studies in Poland clearly prove.

But Wielkopolska has always been one of the tallest regions of Poland anyway.

The Kashubs strike me as having quite a bit of East Baltic blood, which is not as pronounced in Wielkopolska.

Mazowsze is also quite a Nordic area of Poland.

But the really surprising thing for me is how Nordic Bialystock is. It must be one of the fairest and most long-headed cities in the country.

I have no idea why, as it is in the deep north-east, near the Belarus border.

Regards

Loki
Thursday, September 25th, 2003, 04:14 PM
But the really surprising thing for me is how Nordic Bialystock is. It must be one of the fairest and most long-headed cities in the country.

I have no idea why, as it is in the deep north-east, near the Belarus border.

Regards

Very interesting, and useful information. If I visit Poland one day, I will go have a look...

Pomor
Thursday, September 25th, 2003, 05:50 PM
Visit Belarus too. Its nordisher than Poland, especially Northern Belarus.

norda
Friday, September 26th, 2003, 12:20 AM
Visit Belarus too. Its nordisher than Poland, especially Northern Belarus.
I could not agree with your statement. Your observations are right-N.Belarus has small brunet minority -6-7% even comparing to other groups but pure blonds are not as common as in Lithuania, or N.Poland. CI is rather similar. Of course N.Belorusians are strongly depigmenteted but it is mostly due strong Finish (East Baltic?) influence. See: 9. Strong finish feature of snub/flat nose (and blond?) comes from the north-east (Russians- 44%, Belorussians- 38, Lithuanians/ Latvians- 29, Ukrainians- 21, Podlasians - 12, Mazovians- 7, Estonians/Livs??)

I enclose combined accessible tables regarding racial structure of South-East Baltic peoples. Most of my sources comes from the end of XIX c. Great disadvantages are: incomplete dates, different methodology approach and great race changes. After 1939 race structure of South-East Baltic region changed significantly due to:
· Extermination of 1-2mln Jewish population
· Extermination and expulsion of Slavic and Baltic population
· Expulsion of 2,5mln of Germans from South-East Baltic region
· Resettlement of 1,5mln of Poles from Lithuania and Belarus to South- East Prussia, and Pomerania
· Immigration of Russians to North-East Prussia
· Immigration of Russians to Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania (25-50% of population). High mixture tendency.
· Inner migrations in Soviet Union and Poland
· Urbanization and mixing of race types (darkening)

I hope that in spite of all the faults this information will be useful.




Few notes:

1. Slavic and Baltic populations in region are closely related (language and race). Both groups preserves ancient features –high degree of light element 70-80%, tendency to mesocephaly 79-81, narrow facial features, short/medium height
2. Equal percentage of blond elements on the South Baltic coast was placed parallel to latitudes (see school children statistics). – most blond – Schleswig-Holstein, II group- Mecklenburg, Pommern, East+West Prussia, Lithuania, III group Brandenburg, Posen, Masovia, Podlasie.
3. There was no significant differences in pigmentation between German and Slavic/ Baltic element among one geographical group. The only one difference was stronger tendency to darkening of Slavic/ Baltic adults. Most of East German population was germanicized Slavic/Baltic stock.
4. Brunets and people with dark features makes loose groups, without sharp centers, being foreign and late element. There are also older dark elements, which disappear in pure form and exist only in strong tendency to darkening hairs (dark blond, brown), or eyes (gray).
5. Late brunet element immigrated mostly from south – Alps, Balkan, Carpathian region along great rivers –Oder, Vistula, Dnepr.
6. Strong tendency to dolichocephalism, blond, and tall height among Estonians/Livs and Pommeranians/Cassubians, could be relics of Scandinavian influences.
7. Very short blond dolichocephalic type (ci-77, fi –88,4) which makes 9% of East Lithuanians, appears among Ests, Latvians, Poles, and possibly Prussians could be reduced Nordic relic.
8. There was strong source of light, short, brachycephalic type (1640, 84ci) in Pripet Marches (Polesians) (old?)
9. Strong finish feature of snub/flat nose (and blond?) comes from the north-east (Russians- 44%, Belorussians- 38, Lithuanians/ Latvians- 29, Ukrainians- 21, Estonians/Livs??)
10. From South-East comes tendency to broad occiput. (brunet?)



Best regards
norda

Polak
Friday, September 26th, 2003, 01:05 AM
norda,

Some very good information there. I've always been fascinated by the Polish anthropological old school, but could never get my mits on any of the stuff.


7. Very short blond dolichocephalic type (ci-77, fi –88,4) which makes 9% of East Lithuanians, appears among Ests, Latvians, Poles, and possibly Prussians could be reduced Nordic relic.

But I would not take their stature readings very seriously. All this type is a Nordic with depressed stature due to poor diet and/or hard physical work. Their descendants are probably over 190cm now.

Polak
Friday, September 26th, 2003, 05:21 AM
norda,

I have a question for you. It seems you know enough about the topic to be able to answer it.

I've always wondered what kind of a "race" change took place after WWII in East Pomerania and East Prussia.

As you said, most of the Germans (most of whom were Germanized Slavs and Balts) left the region, and were replaced by Poles from Lithuania and Belarus.

Now, since many of those Poles were probably Polonized Liths and Belorussians, what does that mean for the contemporary race structure of Pomorze and Mazury?

Looking at all the data, both Polish and western, it seems that eastern Liths and northern Belorussians were/are quite Nordid. The Cephalic Index comes down to about 80 in these areas, and blondism is quite pronounced.

Even Coon, who had some very peculiar ideas about Slavs, seemed to have acknowledged this.

So does this actually mean that Pomorze and are actually more Nordid now then they were before the war?

As far as I can see, the former German speaking settlers in the area were mostly East Baltic and Borreby. This is well documented by anthropological research.

Sure, they were very blond, probably blonder than any German group, but hardly very Nordid.

norda
Friday, September 26th, 2003, 07:54 AM
It is very hard to answer your question, because of lack of any contemporary anthropologic data available. Surly there are some statistics, but anthropology became rather “unpopular” science after IIWW all over the Europe. I do no like to speculate without stronger data base.
I could only guess that since East Prussians were mostly descendants of Prussians (close to Lithuanians) and Slavic Mazovians in southern part, resettlement of Poles from Lithuania and Belarus to South- East Prussia, and stronger immigration from Mazovia to the north hadn’t had stronger impact on race structure of southern E. Prussia.
Immigration of “Soviet people” to North-East Prussia could make stronger impact due to higher race differences in consist of Soviet migrations. Only as observations I can prove that there are many (maybe 5-7%) people of Altaic, Caucasus and other with un-european look in Kaliningrad/Konigsberg (the same which I observed in Viborg/Vippuri former Finish area.)
I would also remind that every migration and mixing of race types, urbanization processes etc, have had impact on darkening and it was probable also in E Prussia.

Regards
norda


norda,

I have a question for you. It seems you know enough about the topic to be able to answer it.

I've always wondered what kind of a "race" change took place after WWII in East Pomerania and East Prussia.

As you said, most of the Germans (most of whom were Germanized Slavs and Balts) left the region, and were replaced by Poles from Lithuania and Belarus.

Now, since many of those Poles were probably Polonized Liths and Belorussians, what does that mean for the contemporary race structure of Pomorze and Mazury?

Looking at all the data, both Polish and western, it seems that eastern Liths and northern Belorussians were/are quite Nordid. The Cephalic Index comes down to about 80 in these areas, and blondism is quite pronounced.

Even Coon, who had some very peculiar ideas about Slavs, seemed to have acknowledged this.

So does this actually mean that Pomorze and are actually more Nordid now then they were before the war?

As far as I can see, the former German speaking settlers in the area were mostly East Baltic and Borreby. This is well documented by anthropological research.

Sure, they were very blond, probably blonder than any German group, but hardly very Nordid.

Pomor
Friday, September 26th, 2003, 03:58 PM
I could not agree with your statement. Your observations are right-N.Belarus has small brunet minority -6-7% even comparing to other groups but pure blonds are not as common as in Lithuania, or N.Poland. CI is rather similar. Of course N.Belorusians are strongly depigmenteted but it is mostly due strong Finish (East Baltic?) influence. See: 9. Strong finish feature of snub/flat nose (and blond?) comes from the north-east (Russians- 44%, Belorussians- 38, Lithuanians/ Latvians- 29, Ukrainians- 21, Podlasians - 12, Mazovians- 7, Estonians/Livs??)

I enclose combined accessible tables regarding racial structure of South-East Baltic peoples. Most of my sources comes from the end of XIX c. Great disadvantages are: incomplete dates, different methodology approach and great race changes. After 1939 race structure of South-East Baltic region changed significantly due to:
· Extermination of 1-2mln Jewish population
· Extermination and expulsion of Slavic and Baltic population
· Expulsion of 2,5mln of Germans from South-East Baltic region
· Resettlement of 1,5mln of Poles from Lithuania and Belarus to South- East Prussia, and Pomerania
· Immigration of Russians to North-East Prussia
· Immigration of Russians to Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania (25-50% of population). High mixture tendency.
· Inner migrations in Soviet Union and Poland
· Urbanization and mixing of race types (darkening)

I hope that in spite of all the faults this information will be useful.




Few notes:

1. Slavic and Baltic populations in region are closely related (language and race). Both groups preserves ancient features –high degree of light element 70-80%, tendency to mesocephaly 79-81, narrow facial features, short/medium height
2. Equal percentage of blond elements on the South Baltic coast was placed parallel to latitudes (see school children statistics). – most blond – Schleswig-Holstein, II group- Mecklenburg, Pommern, East+West Prussia, Lithuania, III group Brandenburg, Posen, Masovia, Podlasie.
3. There was no significant differences in pigmentation between German and Slavic/ Baltic element among one geographical group. The only one difference was stronger tendency to darkening of Slavic/ Baltic adults. Most of East German population was germanicized Slavic/Baltic stock.
4. Brunets and people with dark features makes loose groups, without sharp centers, being foreign and late element. There are also older dark elements, which disappear in pure form and exist only in strong tendency to darkening hairs (dark blond, brown), or eyes (gray).
5. Late brunet element immigrated mostly from south – Alps, Balkan, Carpathian region along great rivers –Oder, Vistula, Dnepr.
6. Strong tendency to dolichocephalism, blond, and tall height among Estonians/Livs and Pommeranians/Cassubians, could be relics of Scandinavian influences.
7. Very short blond dolichocephalic type (ci-77, fi –88,4) which makes 9% of East Lithuanians, appears among Ests, Latvians, Poles, and possibly Prussians could be reduced Nordic relic.
8. There was strong source of light, short, brachycephalic type (1640, 84ci) in Pripet Marches (Polesians) (old?)
9. Strong finish feature of snub/flat nose (and blond?) comes from the north-east (Russians- 44%, Belorussians- 38, Lithuanians/ Latvians- 29, Ukrainians- 21, Estonians/Livs??)
10. From South-East comes tendency to broad occiput. (brunet?)



Best regards
norda


I'd rather trust my own observations, rather than your tables. I've been to Minsk and a couple of other towns in Northern Belarus, and I can tell for sure that people there look much more nordic than the ones in the photos you have provided. And I am not talking only about hair pigmentation. I am talking about entire phenotype. Belarus has the lowest amount of finno-ugric blood out of all the north-eastern Europe, *much* less than the Baltic States and less than Poland.



Mongoloid mtDNA

Russians - 1.25%
Ukrainians - 1.5%
Polaks - 2%
Lithuanians - 0.8%
Bielorussians - 0%


The following post was made by Polak



http://www.ut.ee/Ural/wel.html


It is clear that the Finno-Ugrians share their maternal lineages with other Europoids (Caucasoids in the genetic terminology) and not with Mongoloids, at least in any larger extent. The results of the genetic research allow also to question the origin of Tat C allele of the Y chromosome and to suggest that it has first occurred in Finno-Ugric population and only considerably later found its way to (some) Siberian populations. The Tat C allele was found to be frequent not only among the European Finno-Ugric populations but also among Latvians and Lithuanians, who are linguistically both Indo-Europeans. Richard Villem’s work team write that "it turned out that frequencies of the Tat C allele in both Latvian (Lahermo et al. 1999) and Lithuanian (our results) Y chromosomes are close to those among Estonians, Karelians and Finns: i.e. significantly higher than among Russians and much higher than among western Slavs: around 29% for Latvians and 33% for Lithuanians. We consider this finding very interesting from the point of view of the ethnogenesis of the extant Baltic and Finno-Ugric populations. There is no apparent north-south frequency gradient of Tat C allele from the Arctic Sea (Saamis) to Lithuanians but a sharp east-west cline both in Scandinavia and on the Baltic area." (Rootsi et al. 2000: 152). The work team also suggests that a high Tat C frequency among Latvians and Lithuanians, in contrast to almost all other Indo-European-speaking Europeans. Particularly, both Poles and Belorussians differ sharply in this respect from the two indicated Baltic populations, as well as from Russians. That suggests very extensive admixture of Latvians and Lithuanians with Finno-Ugric-speaking populations – up to an extent that language change hypothesis can be discussed.

According to new scientific research, the ancestors of modern population of the Baltic area arrived in this area at the end of the Last Maximum of the Last Ice Age from the more southern regions of Europe. They were Euripides by race and settled the territory of the Baltic area after the glacier receded about 19,000–13,000 years ago.


Either your sources are outdated or just not correct.

Here are some Belarussians for you.

http://www.forums.skadi.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=2907

Pomor
Friday, September 26th, 2003, 05:12 PM
Here is a Haplogroup map of Europe where you can see that Poland has a higher level of finno-ugric admixture than Belarus.

http://baz.perlmonk.org/haplogroups.jpg

Loki
Friday, September 26th, 2003, 05:48 PM
Here is a Haplogroup map of Europe where you can see that Poland has a higher level of finno-ugric admixture than Belarus.

http://baz.perlmonk.org/haplogroups.jpg

The difference between Poland and Belarus regarding Finno-Ugric elements is almost too small to mention in an argument, especially since it is really irrelevant to take the mean breakdown per country -- which does not even reflect regional breakdowns. So I fear one cannot draw any definite conclusion from this. This genetic map is based on modern political identities, which are superficial in any way.

Pomor
Friday, September 26th, 2003, 05:58 PM
The difference between Poland and Belarus regarding Finno-Ugric elements is almost too small to mention in an argument, especially since it is really irrelevant to take the mean breakdown per country -- which does not even reflect regional breakdowns. So I fear one cannot draw any definite conclusion from this. This genetic map is based on modern political identities, which are superficial in any way.
I agree, but that was just a reply to the post which stated quite the opposite.

Loki
Friday, September 26th, 2003, 06:07 PM
I agree, but that was just a reply to the post which stated quite the opposite.

Ok. What is quite noticeable in this map is that the Greeks/Cypriots have a high degree of North African/Middle Eastern blood, and are not really very different from Turks. I wonder what Mr Pontikos would say about this. ;) Needless to say, I doubt he will parade this map on his "blog". :D

Pomor
Friday, September 26th, 2003, 06:14 PM
Actually they are different from Turks. Turks seem to have a higher percentage of 'white' haplogroups :D I also wonder what dark-red north-afrikan haplogroup is. I dont really think it is Negroid. I think it could be middle-eastern.

norda
Friday, September 26th, 2003, 11:28 PM
Can u provide any other site with pictures of average belorussians? I tried to find but my connections with .by is very slow. Btw. i really like this country.
Is is said but the fact is that soviet migrations to large cities changed race structure. In Minsk there are many people un-european look too. :(
Maybe we should clasify some girls which pic. u attached.
There is something strange in eyes and facial features for me. Maybe the same as in Putin's and Lebed's faces.
Regards

[QUOTE=Wend]I'd rather trust my own observations, rather than your tables. I've been to Minsk and a couple of other towns in Northern Belarus, and I can tell for sure that people there look much more nordic than the ones in the photos you have provided. And I am not talking only about hair pigmentation. I am talking about entire provided. Belarus has the lowest amount of finno-ugric blood out of all the north-eastern Europe, *much* less than the Baltic States and less than Poland.



The following post was made by Polak



Either your sources are outdated or just not correct.

Here are some Belarussians for you.

Polak
Saturday, September 27th, 2003, 02:06 AM
Wend,


Mongoloid mtDNA

Russians - 1.25%
Ukrainians - 1.5%
Polaks - 2%
Lithuanians - 0.8%
Bielorussians - 0%

Actually, there was one study which showed that Poles in one part of the country had 1.8% of mtDNA haplogroup M - all of which may not be of Mongoloid origin anyway.

I've never seen any other studies showing 2% of Mongoloid admixture in the Polish population overall.

In terms of Tat-C, Belorussians have 2%, while Poles 4%.

Russians have about 14% and Liths 47%, so you can see the difference between Poles and Belorussians is pretty small.

In terms of phenotypes, I have to say that I've been looking at pics of Belorussians and my verdict is that there is a difference between them and Poles.

The Belorussians look more like Russians, but I wouldn't say they were more Nordic than Poles.

I think Poles look more central European, like the Czechs.

Pomor
Saturday, September 27th, 2003, 03:31 PM
Hi, Norda.
I will try to look and find some more pictures of Belarussians. After spending several hours browsing the mail-bribe sites I've come to a conclusion that only the ugliest girls from all over ex-USSR republics post their pics on those sites. Only those who can't find guys in Russia for some particular reason.
The girls I've attached are Russian, the crowd pic is Belarussians. I cant really understant what you find strange in this pic with 5 out of 10 being pure Nords of Corded variety and the rest Nord/Up mixes. Can you show me a pic with Poles with the same percantage of pure Nords? I doubt that.
You are also right about the fact that there a lot of mongrels living in Minsk, and yes that is caused by immigration from other republics. If you want to see some real Belarussians you should go to some northern town.

Polak,
you know who's source I was using :D However I agree with you that the actual percentage is lower.
Belarussians imo, look differently from both Russians and Poles. Their language is closer to Russian, but they understand Polish much better than Russians. And I still think that Belarus is nordisher. Poland might be blonder, but taking in account CI's and overall phenotypes Belarussians are closer to Nordics, imo.

Odin Of Ossetia
Friday, January 23rd, 2004, 05:07 AM
Wend, "Polaks" are more Mongoloid than Russians or Ukrainians?!


This only could have been written by a retard.

Jethro Tull
Friday, January 23rd, 2004, 05:22 AM
Mongoloid mtDNA

Russians - 1.25%
Ukrainians - 1.5%
Polaks - 2%
Lithuanians - 0.8%
Bielorussians - 0%


The only Belorrussian i know, here in Brazil, is cleary Ladogan.

xakep
Friday, January 23rd, 2004, 05:53 AM
Wend,

There is only a minor difference in that mtDNA and from my point it is not enough to support your argument.

xakep
Friday, January 23rd, 2004, 05:56 AM
The only Belorrussian i know, here in Brazil, is cleary Ladogan.
What are you suggesting ?

Jethro Tull
Friday, January 23rd, 2004, 06:38 AM
What are you suggesting ?
Nothing more than what i said.
If you want to make a conclusion based on my comment, go ahead.

xakep
Friday, January 23rd, 2004, 06:45 AM
Nothing more than what i said.
If you want to make a conclusion based on my comment, go ahead.
Nah, I will pass, there is enough flaming on this board already.

Jethro Tull
Friday, January 23rd, 2004, 06:49 AM
Nah, I will pass, there is enough flaming on this board already.
hehe it was really just a comment. I didn't intend to conclude anything. ;)