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visigodo
Saturday, November 19th, 2005, 12:16 AM
I would like to post some pictures of Nordid or pred. Nordid italians. I will start with examples from anthropology books. More examples are welcome.

https://forums.skadi.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=44978&d=1132359340

https://forums.skadi.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=44979&d=1132359340

https://forums.skadi.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=44980&d=1132359340

https://forums.skadi.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=44981&d=1132359340

https://forums.skadi.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=44982&d=1132359340

https://forums.skadi.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=44983&d=1132359340

https://forums.skadi.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=44984&d=1132359340

https://forums.skadi.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=44985&d=1132359340

https://forums.skadi.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=44987&d=1132359340

Agrippa
Saturday, November 19th, 2005, 01:01 AM
Though he has certain morphological traits I consider being Nordid and has a Nordid component, he is a very bad example with this headshape and obviously high CI, already more Norid with slight Alpinoid than Nordid...
I would describe him as Norid rather:
http://forums.skadi.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=44985&d=1132359340

Glenlivet
Saturday, November 19th, 2005, 05:33 AM
85,2 is high and brachycephalic. That does not make him Dinarid though. He resemble more the men from K.E. Sschreiner's BIDRAG TIL ROGALANDS ANTROPOLOGI. SNPA put them under Borreby.

http://www.snpa.skadi.net/bilder/bidragV2a.jpg


Though he has certain morphological traits I consider being Nordid and has a Nordid component, he is a very bad example with this headshape and obviously high CI, already more Norid with slight Alpinoid than Nordid...
I would describe him as Norid rather:
http://forums.skadi.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=44985&d=1132359340

visigodo
Saturday, November 19th, 2005, 07:15 AM
Though he has certain morphological traits I consider being Nordid and has a Nordid component, he is a very bad example with this headshape and obviously high CI, already more Norid with slight Alpinoid than Nordid...
I would describe him as Norid rather:
http://forums.skadi.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=44985&d=1132359340

Thanks Agrippa. Not best example for sure. I scanned the picture from THE RACES OF EUROPE, the work made by Ripley (1899) and was classify as a Teutonic type. The problem at that time is that Ripley had only tree main options to classify the European races: The Teutonic, the Alpine and the Mediterranean race.

https://forums.skadi.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=44989&d=1132384435

Agrippa
Saturday, November 19th, 2005, 12:35 PM
85,2 is high and brachycephalic. That does not make him Dinarid though. He resemble more the men from K.E. Sschreiner's BIDRAG TIL ROGALANDS ANTROPOLOGI. SNPA put them under Borreby.

http://www.snpa.skadi.net/bilder/bidragV2a.jpg

This is a different variants, speaking about the guy from above, he has no Borreby morphology though, this facial features look more similar to Norids, secondly Nordid and Alpinoid. He has this typical expression I know from my country and automatically associate with Norids, which are usually mroe narrow faced-headed than he is though, but otherwise almost the same.

Glenlivet
Saturday, November 19th, 2005, 01:01 PM
I trust your judgement, but I do not associate the shape of his nose and occiput with Dinarid or Noric. It is possible that I am also confused by his broader face.

Have you read anything on racial expressions (some say it is only cultural) which you can share with us?


He has this typical expression I know from my country and automatically associate with Norids, which are usually mroe narrow faced-headed than he is though, but otherwise almost the same.

Agrippa
Saturday, November 19th, 2005, 01:21 PM
I trust your judgement, but I do not associate the shape of his nose and occiput with Dinarid or Noric. It is possible that I am also confused by his broader face.

Have you read anything on racial expressions (some say it is only cultural) which you can share with us?

V. Eickstedt wrote something about that, but not too much and its too long ago that I read his main work already in which he had some sides about that (especially comparing the major races and their facial muscles, he claimed that certain types have a more primitive, or more complex facial muscles) and of course the work of Clauß, which Feldherr posted in the German section.

However, there are various peculiarities I automatically associate with Norid, Nordid-Dinarid if looking at his face from experience mostly (Norids are not that uncommon here...though their numbers are lower than claimed by some).

CountBloodSpawn
Saturday, November 19th, 2005, 07:38 PM
just the genetic evidence that the Visigoths and Lombards cleaned up after what was left of the Roman empire

android
Sunday, November 20th, 2005, 11:46 AM
just the genetic evidence that the Visigoths and Lombards cleaned up after what was left of the Roman empire

well most of Italy is Med still..

Glenlivet
Sunday, November 20th, 2005, 04:18 PM
A lot of that view around the world is based on what kind of Italians have emigrated. Most of these Italians are from Southern Italy and they are on average more gracile, shorter and darker. The Mediterranid component in them is indeed strong but from what I have seen in Italian-Americans also Armenoid and minor Arabid/Orientalid.

NE Italy is predominantly Dinarid. NW Italy Alpinid, except Liguria where there is a strong Atlanto-Mediterranid element. There are supposedly Alpinids down to Central Italy.

There are also Norics in Northern Italy and a small number of Nordids.


well most of Italy is Med still..

Huzar
Sunday, November 20th, 2005, 05:42 PM
A lot of that view around the world is based on what kind of Italians have emigrated. Most of these Italians are from Southern Italy and they are on average more gracile, shorter and darker. The Mediterranid component in them is indeed strong but from what I have seen in Italian-Americans also Armenoid and minor Arabid/Orientalid.

NE Italy is predominantly Dinarid. NW Italy Alpinid, except Liguria where there is a strong Atlanto-Mediterranid element. There are supposedly Alpinids down to Central Italy.

There are also Norics in Northern Italy and a small number of Nordids.


Yes, your basilar analysis is substantially right. Less or more, Northern Italy anthropological make up is just like you write.

I can add a couple of precisations ; 1) Atlanto-Med is rather strong in northItaly and its influence cover a good part of north-west, where in combination with Alpinid and Cromagnid strains, create a strange but notable number of dinarids. Like someone said in the past, Atlantomed type, appears to be transitional to the Dinarid type. The same in the nearest regions of France.
2) Dinarids in north-est of the country, aren't exactly like dinarids from Balkans area : they share a lighter pigmentation and more softened facial traits etc. Dinarid type tend to be more Norid, than "classic" Dinarid (Adriatid, i mean).


About italians in the world , and in Europe (especially in Germany and northeurope) , almost all are from central-Southern Italy, and obviously share a marked southern european look. Cause that, the major part of northern europeans all around the world, associate strongly Italy with a look we would define ,on this site, as Gracile-Mediterranean in combination with other various influences (some from the near-east). Btw, we must note that north and south, share a notable cultural difference too.

Frans_Jozef
Monday, November 21st, 2005, 12:12 PM
Though he has certain morphological traits I consider being Nordid and has a Nordid component, he is a very bad example with this headshape and obviously high CI, already more Norid with slight Alpinoid than Nordid...
I would describe him as Norid rather:
http://forums.skadi.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=44985&d=1132359340

That headshape is imo anything but Norid, aside that of an a-typical Dinarid. His broad forehead is slightly curved and slopes gently, but insignificantly to the vault, and the lower part of the forehead lacks even an abrupt recession before it arches back to the vault; in profile, one may see a bump-like prominence located on the upper part of the forehead.

One could imagine to view his head contour in norma verticalis and behold a more or less spheroid shape, large by all means, the temporals not expressively protuding unlike the pariental area; in other words, in form and with great probability metrically as well, very akin to the SW Norwegian Borreby and the Sogne Brachycephals. It misses the terse and compressed qualities attributed to Dinarids.

If one wants to insists on Dinarid, an Alpin(o)id influence can't go unnoticed and lends this head a much more curvilinear and smoother tracing, like e.g. the Alpinid-Dinarid Bell Beaker skulls in SW Germany -- Alpinid understood as comprising the "North Alpinid"/Moen type and its derivative Borreby form (Nordid-Moen hybrid characterized by pseudo-dinaricism). Even the Steudnitz I skull, in which Gerhard finds an almost complete and essential array of Dinarid landmarks, blends imo some rugged Borreby features, which the Beaker populations and later the Celts introduced in Central Europe.

Of course, Gerhard and his German consorts are quick to dismiss the whole issue of a "Borreby" race, but I can't help to find their opinion unconvincing.

Agrippa
Monday, November 21st, 2005, 02:56 PM
in other words, in form and with great probability metrically as well, very akin to the SW Norwegian Borreby and the Sogne Brachycephals.

Like some Atlantomediterranids tend to go in an already rather Dinaroid direction (just compare with Baskids), some Borreby-like types go fluently into the Dinaroid spectrum as well - and most likely out of the combination and evolution out of a mixed population the Dinarid core in Europe came up. However, I can just agree with what you said, metrically and in general form he is more Borreby than anything else, but still his facial features aren't Borreby, that might be more subjective what was my mistake in his case, but his facial features are just Nordid, whereas his overall headshape is Borreby/Nordalpinoid.

And yes, to totally ignore the Borreby-like variants is a mistake of many German anthropologists, they should have at least formed a subtype in the Alpinoid spectrum for this combination of traits, like I did ;)

Glenlivet
Monday, November 21st, 2005, 09:50 PM
Visigodo, can you please tell me the source of the second picture, "Italian Nordid 1"?

visigodo
Monday, December 5th, 2005, 05:02 PM
Visigodo, can you please tell me the source of the second picture, "Italian Nordid 1"?

Hi Glenlivet.

Sorry to answer you so late but I was not at home the last two weeks.

I took the picture from the book "L'âme des races". A sumary of the work made by Ludwig Ferdinand Clauss.

visigodo
Monday, December 5th, 2005, 05:06 PM
Here another picture of a pred. Nordid Italian that I forgot to add the last time.

https://forums.skadi.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=45974&d=1133802332