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View Full Version : Reconstructions and Maps: Early East-Nordids and East-Cromagnids



Gareth
Tuesday, November 8th, 2005, 04:53 AM
Map: Corded Ware and Bell Beaker cultures
http://img206.imageshack.us/img206/791/cordedbellbeaker8pc.th.jpg (http://img206.imageshack.us/my.php?image=cordedbellbeaker8pc.jpg)

A chronology dealing with the Central and North European Neolithic:
http://www.comp-archaeology.org/Central_European_Neolithic_Chronology.ht m

The area of the Pamarian Corded Ware culture and other cultures, the ancestors of the Baltic nations:
http://img199.imageshack.us/img199/8702/theareaofthepamariancordedware.th.jpg (http://img199.imageshack.us/my.php?image=theareaofthepamariancordedw are.jpg)
1. Pamarian culture,
2. Upper Dnieper culture,
3. Fatyanovo culture,
4. Balanovo culture.
Arrows show the directions of the Indoeuropean spreading.

Indo European expansion according to Hirt (Slavic modified)
http://img224.imageshack.us/img224/3469/indoeuropeanexpansionaccording.th.jpg (http://img224.imageshack.us/my.php?image=indoeuropeanexpansionaccord ing.jpg)

Another map after Coon:
http://img224.imageshack.us/img224/1858/troemap3a9ho.th.jpg (http://img224.imageshack.us/my.php?image=troemap3a9ho.jpg)http://img224.imageshack.us/img224/323/troemap3b1gu.th.jpg (http://img224.imageshack.us/my.php?image=troemap3b1gu.jpg)

Typical skulls of the Central European Proto-Nordids
http://img188.imageshack.us/img188/2796/centraleuropeanneolithicskulls.th.jpg (http://img188.imageshack.us/img188/2796/centraleuropeanneolithicskulls.jpg)

Corded female from Stetten a. d. Donau:
http://img301.imageshack.us/img301/686/stettenaddonaucorded28002200bc.jpg

Fatyanovo Battle Axe people (sometimes called the same as Corded) from Central Russia (ranging from Dniepr to Kama):
http://img127.imageshack.us/img127/5223/fatjanovotypefromdnieprtokama2.jpg

http://img297.imageshack.us/img297/8531/fatyanovo5gt.th.jpg (http://img297.imageshack.us/my.php?image=fatyanovo5gt.jpg)http://img297.imageshack.us/img297/7450/fatyanovo26zb.th.jpg (http://img297.imageshack.us/my.php?image=fatyanovo26zb.jpg)

Fatyanovo culture reconstruction
courtesy of Ross

Many authors stress that Fatyanovo is important for Slavic ethnogenesis
and that they were East-Cromagnids and Nordids

Fatyanovo is afaik closest to the Paleoeuropid race but not exactly representing this race (according to Wojciech Koc’ka – the Fatyanovo population consists to 49% of Paleoeuropid (I haven't found higher % in any other group)).

That's why I posted the reconstruction in this thread.

Fatyanovo skulls average measurements (Akimowa 1949):
CI 71,5 UFI 48,2 NI 56,2 OI 76,7 H(M)I 80,9

The closeness to Corded- CI -is rather delusive in this case. Actually Paleoeuropid is long headed (btw much more longer headed (73) then contemporary Nordic –76 or rather 79)

Let's compare Fatyanovo and very long headed (high Mediterranean admix) CE Corded group. (Maue’39)
CI 69,9 UFI54,3 NI46,3 OI77,5 HMI 87,0

As we can see:
1) CI of Fatyanovo is slightly higher
2) Upper Face Index evidently lower (Fatjanovo faces were shorter)
3) NI of skulls evidently higher (Fatyanovo noses were broader)
4) Ocullus is not so low (should be 70 in extreme Cromagnonid Paleoeuropids) but lower than Corded
5) Medium Height Index is average (80,9) between Corded – 87 and Nordid -75

Boat Axe culture (sometimes called the same as Corded) in the Balticum:
http://img147.imageshack.us/img147/3065/kajafig22su.th.jpg (http://img147.imageshack.us/my.php?image=kajafig22su.jpg)

Andronovo type (from Volga to Baikal):
http://img127.imageshack.us/img127/1268/andronovotypefromvolgatobaikal.jpg

Mesolithic Uralic types (from Karelia):
http://img224.imageshack.us/img224/3369/kajafig17se.th.jpg (http://img224.imageshack.us/my.php?image=kajafig17se.jpg)

An early Finn? ("Pekka")
http://img291.imageshack.us/img291/4656/earlyfinnpekka3mj.jpg

Late neolithic Comb Ceramics culture, from the Vologda region:
http://img182.imageshack.us/img182/4215/karavaicha24qe.th.jpg (http://img182.imageshack.us/my.php?image=karavaicha24qe.jpg)
http://img171.imageshack.us/img171/7470/karavaicha15yq.th.jpg (http://img171.imageshack.us/my.php?image=karavaicha15yq.jpg)

Someone from the Pit-Grave culture (that's the one that was (in earlier times) thought to have given rise to Corded/Battle Axe culture and Indoeuropeanized the more western living people):
http://img182.imageshack.us/img182/9178/altgruben6eu.th.jpg (http://img182.imageshack.us/my.php?image=altgruben6eu.jpg)

A Skythian:
http://img182.imageshack.us/img182/1420/skythe4mc.th.jpg (http://img182.imageshack.us/my.php?image=skythe4mc.jpg)

Reconstructions of ancient Slavs:
http://img174.imageshack.us/img174/2589/paleoanthropologybelrasaarch10.jpg
http://img174.imageshack.us/img174/6993/paleoanthropologybelrasaarch22.jpg
http://img32.imageshack.us/img32/2986/3obraz4bm.jpg

Fig.1. A man from Vologda 10-11 A.D. Reconstruction of T.S. Balueva
http://img32.imageshack.us/img32/3842/5obraz3tr.jpg

Fig.2. A man from Tver' 12-13 A.D. Reconstruction of G. V. Lebedinskaya
http://img32.imageshack.us/img32/7610/6obraz1nl.jpg

Fig.3. A woman from Vyatichi tribe 10-11 A.D. Reconstruction of V.P. Darkevich
http://img32.imageshack.us/img32/1919/2obraz3ij.jpg

Fig.4. A woman from Vyatichi tribe 10 - 11 A.D. Reconstruction of M.M. Gerasimov
http://img32.imageshack.us/img32/5321/1obraz7zf.jpg

Coon's info on the Corded-Danubian complex:
http://img238.echo.cx/img238/690/thenordicraceexamplesofcordedp.th.jpg (http://img238.echo.cx/my.php?image=thenordicraceexamplesofcord edp.jpg)
Text: The Nordic Race: Examples of Corded Predominance (http://web.archive.org/web/20031205170237/http://www.legioneuropa.org/Racediv/CSCoon/Papers/p27.htm)

http://img45.echo.cx/img45/7135/thenordicraceexamplesofdanubia.th.jpg (http://img45.echo.cx/my.php?image=thenordicraceexamplesofdanu bia.jpg)
Text: The Nordic Race: Examples of Danubian Predominance (http://web.archive.org/web/20031205170237/http://www.legioneuropa.org/Racediv/CSCoon/Papers/p28.htm)

Coon's Neolithic Mediterranoid types:

(1) Mediterranean Proper (hereafter meant when the word "Mediterranean" is used alone): Short stature, about 160 cm.; skull length 183-187 mm. male mean; vault height 132-137 mm. mean; cranial index means 73-75; browridges and bone development weak, face short, nose leptorrhine to mesorrhine. Type already met in Portugal and Palestine in Late Mesolithic. Represents the paedomorphic or sexually undifferentiated Mediterranean form, and often carries a slight negroid tendency.

(2) Danubian: The same in body size and build, skull length and cranial index the same; individually, the index goes to 80. Vault is higher than breadth, means 137-140 mm. Nose mesorrhine to chamaerrhine.

(3) Megalithic: Tall stature, means 167-171 cm., slender build; skull length over 190 mm.; cranial index 68-72 means, individual range below 78; vault moderate in height, less than breadth; forehead modrately sloping, browridges often of moderate heaviness, muscular markings stronger, skull base wider, face medium to long, nose leptorrhine, mandible often deep and moderately wide. The East African Elmenteitans represent an individual and extreme form of this. It represents a gerontomorphic or sexually differentiated Mediterranean or Galley Hill form, and in cranial features is closer to Galley Hill itself than any other branch.

(4) Corded: Tall stature, means 167-174 cm.; build linear but muscular, perhaps heavier than the Megalithic; extremely long-headed, 194 mm. mean. Vault of great height, means over 140 mm., exceeding breadth; browridges and muscular markings medium to strong; face very long, and of slight to moderate breadth; mandible deep and chin marked, but narrow through the gonial angles. Nose leptorrhine, often prominent. This type, in western and northern Europe, approaches in some respects the Upper Palaeolithic type with which it mixed.
A picture of Galley Hill:
http://img314.imageshack.us/img314/244/galleyhillpiltdownlachapelleau.gif
Galley Hill, Piltdown, La Chapelle-aux-Saints, Pithecanthropus

Two more pictures of early Indo-Europeans, can someone translate the Russian description?
http://img146.imageshack.us/img146/4315/firstie1lm.th.jpg (http://img146.imageshack.us/my.php?image=firstie1lm.jpg)http://img146.imageshack.us/img146/6106/oldryazan0vk.th.jpg (http://img146.imageshack.us/my.php?image=oldryazan0vk.jpg)

Pictures of Scandinavian East-Nordids from Lundman:
http://img174.echo.cx/img174/6675/dalarna070ky.jpghttp://img174.echo.cx/img174/4404/dalarna087es.jpghttp://img174.echo.cx/img174/5839/dalarna328ri.jpg
http://img148.echo.cx/img148/2932/trndetyper2face8eb.jpghttp://img148.echo.cx/img148/1295/trndetyper26nr.jpghttp://img92.echo.cx/img92/6852/tr27wz.jpg
http://img92.echo.cx/img92/2046/oretrnder7jx.th.jpg (http://img92.echo.cx/my.php?image=oretrnder7jx.jpg)http://img92.echo.cx/img92/1536/oretrnder27xk.th.jpg (http://img92.echo.cx/my.php?image=oretrnder27xk.jpg)http://img92.echo.cx/img92/6371/vstrarttviktrnder26lf.th.jpg (http://img92.echo.cx/my.php?image=vstrarttviktrnder26lf.jpg)h ttp://img92.echo.cx/img92/5849/vstrarttviktrnder2cy.th.jpg (http://img92.echo.cx/my.php?image=vstrarttviktrnder2cy.jpg)

The Eastern Gravettian culture in western Russia (30,000-22,000 BC), Capellid type:
Sunghir 1:
http://img299.imageshack.us/img299/8350/1712et.th.gif (http://img299.imageshack.us/my.php?image=1712et.gif)
http://img299.imageshack.us/img299/9183/1724rz.th.gif (http://img299.imageshack.us/my.php?image=1724rz.gif)

Sunghir 5, a female:
http://img299.imageshack.us/img299/1786/170324zy.th.gif (http://img299.imageshack.us/my.php?image=170324zy.gif)

Sunghir 2, a boy:
http://img299.imageshack.us/img299/5867/24013qn.th.gif (http://img299.imageshack.us/my.php?image=24013qn.gif)

Sunghir 3, a girl:
http://img299.imageshack.us/img299/6159/2402a17gg.th.gif (http://img299.imageshack.us/my.php?image=2402a17gg.gif)

Anthropological complexes of European Russia, Baltic States, Belarus and Ukraine, see also:
http://forums.skadi.net/showthread.php?p=337183#post337183
http://img237.imageshack.us/img237/1148/evsmap72eng4yr.th.gif (http://img237.imageshack.us/my.php?image=evsmap72eng4yr.gif)

http://img229.imageshack.us/img229/5168/polessyetype6lz.th.jpg (http://img229.imageshack.us/my.php?image=polessyetype6lz.jpg)
Type #1. Polessye type, short, brachycephalic, relatively dark, platyprosopic (broad-faced)

http://img224.imageshack.us/img224/1958/valdai8vn.th.jpg (http://img224.imageshack.us/my.php?image=valdai8vn.jpg)http://img295.imageshack.us/img295/5437/valdaic5wg.th.jpg (http://img295.imageshack.us/my.php?image=valdaic5wg.jpg)
Type #2, Valdai type, medium statured, relatively depigmented, sub-brachycephalic to brachycephalic, medium-faced

http://img224.imageshack.us/img224/4575/type3ilmendneprtype1qa.th.jpg (http://img224.imageshack.us/my.php?image=type3ilmendneprtype1qa.jpg)
Type #3, Ilmen-Dnepr type. Tall, blond, mesocephalic, leptorhine and leptoprosopic. Approximately 25% of the Belarussian population belongs to this type

Dr. Solar Wolff
Tuesday, November 8th, 2005, 05:57 AM
This is a great post on the Corded type. The female skull from Stetten looks perfectly Med. to me, although I don't know her metrics. This brings up a question I have always had. When I look at the Corded and Atlanto-Med. types, I really can't tell the difference in overall outline. Someone usually tells us where the skull is from and, in my mind, some geographical typology is done fitting it into one or the other category. It looks to me as if both really belong to the same type, skeletal type at least, with only slight variation from East to West---and in this post, the difference seems even smaller than I had imagined. Comments????

Polak
Tuesday, November 8th, 2005, 02:31 PM
This is a great post on the Corded type. The female skull from Stetten looks perfectly Med. to me, although I don't know her metrics. This brings up a question I have always had. When I look at the Corded and Atlanto-Med. types, I really can't tell the difference in overall outline. Someone usually tells us where the skull is from and, in my mind, some geographical typology is done fitting it into one or the other category. It looks to me as if both really belong to the same type, skeletal type at least, with only slight variation from East to West---and in this post, the difference seems even smaller than I had imagined. Comments????


Eastern types, from about Scandinavia and East Germany eastward, are high skulled.

West European types, roughly from Scandinavia and East Germany westward, are much lower skulled.

Edwin
Tuesday, November 8th, 2005, 03:23 PM
In discussions with Agrippa at Dodona this was considered, and I stated that to me it seems that Europids fall into five types:

1. Cromagnoid
2. Irano-Atlanto-Nordoid (better just Nordoid?)
3. Dinaroid
4. Alpinoid
5. Mediterranoid

Someone had asked whether Nordids should be considered depigmented Mediterranids, and this was assumed for a while, until Agrippa stepped in to say that Nordids and Atlantids are really quite far away from Mediterranids. I then agreed, and proposed an Irano-Atlanto-Nordoid type which is relatively distinct from the Mediterranoid. Several members then questioned my use of the word "distinct", including Agrippa, but none argued with the above scheme. This is most likely due to the fact that it is more or less the same as Dienekes' Five Metrical Types, but arrived at differently, though of course I had them in mind.

This scheme also agrees with Dienekes' and with mainstream anthropology in having Alpinoid distinct from Cromagnoid. If Nordids and Atlantids are not Mediterranoid, then Alpinids are not Cromagnoid. That term is reserved for relatively unreduced and unaltered hunter-gatherer types, including brachycephalized "variants" like Borreby and Balkanid.

Corded and Megalithic would both be considered Nordoid.

I must be the most fearless comparative mythologist ever, with no training in anthropology whatsoever. But feel free to dismiss my arguments at your own peril! :D


This is a great post on the Corded type. The female skull from Stetten looks perfectly Med. to me, although I don't know her metrics. This brings up a question I have always had. When I look at the Corded and Atlanto-Med. types, I really can't tell the difference in overall outline. Someone usually tells us where the skull is from and, in my mind, some geographical typology is done fitting it into one or the other category. It looks to me as if both really belong to the same type, skeletal type at least, with only slight variation from East to West---and in this post, the difference seems even smaller than I had imagined. Comments????

Glenlivet
Tuesday, November 8th, 2005, 04:27 PM
"The Long Barrow population formed a distinct, homogeneous type; one different from any which, to our knowledge, had previously inhabited the British Isles since the days of Galley Hill; and one which cannot be duplicated, except as an element in a mixed population, anywhere on the western European continent. One is, therefore, led to conclude that the Megalithic cult was not merely a complex of burial rites which diffused without visible carriers; and also that the bearers of this complex avoided mixture by coming by sea.

In stature and bodily build, the Megalithic people belong to a large variety of Mediterranean. The stature for a large number of males58 from England ranges about a mean of 167 or 168 cm.; which is not contraverted by the meager evidence from Scotland and Ireland. Four male skeletons from a single burial in Kent59 may represent, more nearly than most, the Windmill Hill group; they are somewhat shorter than the rest.

The Long Barrow skulls are large for a Mediterranean sub-race, but not as large as those of the Upper Palaeolithic peoples. They are particularly long, moderately narrow, and of medium height. Unlike that of the Corded skulls, the height is less than the breadth. In most instances, the occiput projects far to the rear; the parietals are parallel; the forehead is moderately sloping, and, in contrast to the restricted skull width, very straight and broad.

The face is of medium length and of moderate width; the orbits are of medium dimensions, and in many instances slope downward and outward, as if the confines of the face were too narrow for them. The nasion depression is of medium depth, under browridges of medium development; and the straight-profiled nose is leptorrhine. In its totality, the Long Barrow type is both extreme and striking.

In looking for related populations of equal age, we may eliminate at once the smaller, less dolichocephalic branches of the Mediterranean race proper, including the Danubian. A few individual crania in Neolithic Spain and Italy would qualify, but none of the series from these countries. The standard Egyptian crania, as groups, are all too small, as is the single lady from Greece. In one particular feature, the nasal index, the Long Barrow people resemble the Egyptians more than most of the more northerly Mediterraneans, for the Long Barrow crania are leptorrhine.

In their extreme dolichocephaly, the Long Barrow skulls resemble the Corded group, but the comparison does not hold for all features - the Long Barrow skulls are slightly longer, considerably broader, and much wider of forehead, than the Corded specimens, and, of course, the vault of the Long Barrow skulls is much lower.60 As far as one can tell, the orbits in the two series are much the same, while in regard to the faces, there is not enough evidence in the Corded group for a valid comparison.

A true and valid similarity, however, may be found between the English Long Barrow series and the early skulls from al 'Ubaid in Sumeria, which, whether belonging to the fourth or third millennium B.C., are in either case older than their British counterparts. The only difference, which prevents identity, is that the Mesopotamian faces and noses are somewhat longer."

http://www.snpa.skadi.net/chapter-IV10.htm

http://x10.putfile.com/10/29112331275.jpg

I can see a few differences only by looking at the drawings.

The Long Barow has a straighter lower forehead and unlike the Corded the top of the head is flat. The mandible of the Corded is deeper. The skull look longer and the occiput does not project as much. The Corded skull is much longer-faced with a deeper jaw. It is a more rugged type. The zygomata seem to be higher too and the orbits do not slope downwards in the same characteristic way as they do in the Long Barrow drawing. I wonder if the size of the drawings are correct. The Corded look much bigger.


It looks to me as if both really belong to the same type, skeletal type at least, with only slight variation from East to West---and in this post, the difference seems even smaller than I had imagined. Comments????

Glenlivet
Tuesday, November 8th, 2005, 04:29 PM
HLI is low in most of Norway and it is significantly higher in Western Finland than in Eastern Sweden.




West European types, roughly from Scandinavia and East Germany westward, are much lower skulled.

Polak
Wednesday, November 9th, 2005, 02:50 AM
HLI is low in most of Norway and it is significantly higher in Western Finland than in Eastern Sweden.


I agree. But high-skulled types begin appearing in Norway (ie. Tronder), and then increase greatly as one moves east.

Dr. Solar Wolff
Thursday, November 10th, 2005, 06:30 AM
Thanks to Polak and Glenlivet, especially the diagram showing both the Med., Corded and Long Barrow types on one page. The visual makes Polaks points concrete. The Corded type comes off looking more Nordic.

Gareth
Thursday, November 10th, 2005, 07:06 AM
I forgot to translate the subtitles of this picture:

http://img188.imageshack.us/img188/2796/centraleuropeanneolithicskulls.th.jpg (http://img188.imageshack.us/img188/2796/centraleuropeanneolithicskulls.jpg)

1. Danubian
2. Corded
3. Bell Beaker


I can see a few differences only by looking at the drawings.
This does not hold for all skulls but Coon considered not only this single one, so his summary is valuable.