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Hardwig
Tuesday, November 8th, 2005, 12:49 AM
What exactly happened with the German aristocracy after the war? Even the preposition "von" is rarely seen in modern surnames that become shorter than before.Is there any association with the dismantling of the Prussian State or are separate facts? In my opinion much of this caotic "identity crisis" that is occurring in Germany is due to the lack of patriotism that especially in Prussia was very strong.I know that everywhere in Europe and North America the circumstances are deplorable but in Germany things seen worse,because not only racial proud is scarce right there but even national proud is very rare.If there is no more elites like that,how can they be replaced? Their combative "eager for power" that protected the German "enterprise" may be very missed in present days.Opinions from Germans will be very welcome of course.

Deling
Tuesday, November 8th, 2005, 02:03 AM
According to Walther Darré, the future Germanic Reich would do away with the nobility titles, just as the Weimar Republic did away with its privilegies. So I guess it was Hitler's government that finished-off the old bourgeoisified nobility identity. To replace it with a high-value racial neuadel.

Nordgau
Wednesday, November 9th, 2005, 04:15 PM
What exactly happened with the German aristocracy after the war? Even the preposition "von" is rarely seen in modern surnames that become shorter than before.Is there any association with the dismantling of the Prussian State or are separate facts?

Well, there are plenty people in Germany with a "von" in their name. Even if the aristocracy lost power and importance through the egalitarian and levelling tendencies of the last 200 years (especially since 1918), the families as such still exist, as long as they weren't extinguished or strongly decimated through war and expulsion. What do you mean with the names becoming shorter than before?

There exists no aristocracy in the actual sense since the Weimar constitution (1919). The former nobility titles and the "von" in the names are since then nothing but a element of the surname. Even if the yellow press may call Ernst August Prinz von Hannover and Richard Freiherr von Weizsäcker a "prince" or a "baron", respectively, and even if they may regard themselves as such and ae regarded by the people--properly they are not a prince and a baron, but Prinz and Freiherr are just parts of their surnames (that's also why the former titles appear after their Christian names). A German nobility may still exist as a sociological and as a consciousness class, but not in the legal sense.

In Austria, the nobility lost even the "von" with the fall of the monachy.

Huzar
Wednesday, November 9th, 2005, 04:31 PM
Well, there are plenty people in Germany with a "von" in their name. Even if the aristocracy lost power and importance through the egalitarian and levelling tendencies of the last 200 years (especially since 1918), the families as such still exist, as long as they weren't extinguished or strongly decimated through war and expulsion. What do you mean with the names becoming shorter than before?

There exists no aristocracy in the actual sense since the Weimar constitution (1919). The former nobility titles and the "von" in the names are since then nothing but a element of the surname. Even if the yellow press may call Ernst August Prinz von Hannover and Richard Freiherr von Weizsäcker a "prince" or a "baron", respectively, and even if they may regard themselves as such and ae regarded by the people--properly they are not a prince and a baron, but Prinz and Freiherr are just parts of their surnames (that's also why the former titles appear after their Christian names). A German nobility may still exist as a sociological and as a consciousness class, but not in the legal sense.

In Austria, the nobility lost even the "von" with the fall of the monachy.



Interesting. The same here after the end of the last war.

From what i can understand under the lines in your brief post, phenotypical composition too, has changed in Germany during the last 200 years (and especially in the last 100) : in few words, after every single, historical, military defeat, German Folk has lost somewhat of its most original racial/phenotypical stock. Some kind of gradual decadence, starting with the dissolution of elite social classes. Aristocracy, for example, in this case.

Edwin
Wednesday, November 9th, 2005, 04:46 PM
Elite is not proper term for nobility, because it generally refers to the educated and metropolitan upper class of the middle class, which has to some extent removed itself. Nobles are many things, but elite they are not, as all their power comes from engagement, not withdrawal. But the elite tradionally attach themselves to the nobility as courtiers, hence the confusion. Their purpose naturally becomes the distancing of the nobility from the landed gentry, and this always ends badly. Similar circumstances led to the Viking Age.

Wichmann
Wednesday, November 9th, 2005, 05:27 PM
From what i can understand under the lines in your brief post, phenotypical composition too, has changed in Germany during the last 200 years (and especially in the last 100) : in few words, after every single, historical, military defeat, German Folk has lost somewhat of its most original racial/phenotypical stock. Some kind of gradual decadence, starting with the dissolution of elite social classes. Aristocracy, for example, in this case.

I would be careful with such rash conclusions!

It is true that the Nordid component has been decreasing for a long time, but the reasons are a bit more complicated! I think that disappearance of the aristocracy hasn't that strong influence as you suggested.

When you look at the contemporary German functional elite especially in science, engineering and economy (except the established politicians! :P )
then you will recognize still an huge amount of "Nordic" (in the wider sense) traits within this group.

I think one very underestimated reason for the denordisation is the enhanced social mobility since at least three generations now. BTW Adolf Hitler was an very important accelerator if not initiator of this development! So it is more easily possible for a gifted member of the lower class to move up in society. The main problem now is that this functional elite has just to less children!!!! Almost 40% of all female German Academics aged 35 are childless! In the other 60% all teachers are included! So imagine if you substract these female teachers how many succesful hence gifted women will remain! It's just plain insane: The more succesful as woman you are in this society the less children you have!

This is pure counterselection! :| :thumbdown

Waarnemer
Wednesday, November 9th, 2005, 06:33 PM
From what i can understand under the lines in your brief post, phenotypical composition too, has changed in Germany during the last 200 years (and especially in the last 100) : in few words, after every single, historical, military defeat, German Folk has lost somewhat of its most original racial/phenotypical stock. Some kind of gradual decadence, starting with the dissolution of elite social classes. Aristocracy, for example, in this case.
Bullshit. Your talking jibberisch lately :thumbdown . Over and over you just repeat what Agrippa is saying. Nordgau wasn't talking about subrace what so ever, but you had yet again to show your own viewpoint and drag so called less progressive elements through the mud - and label them as lower classes, like you know how aristocratic families subracially look like! Way to go!! :thumbdown I've been trying to understand your words, you know.. but overall the have simply no real meaning. BTW in what way did the german aristocracy lost his original racial/phenotypical stock? You think aristocratic families or the elite send their own son's to war? Your delusional.

Huzar
Wednesday, November 9th, 2005, 06:38 PM
(except the established politicians! :P )



Uh, you're right !:P ;)

Hardwig
Thursday, November 10th, 2005, 06:08 AM
What do you mean with the names becoming shorter than before? I recognise that I made a unaccurate comment,maybe is just a wrong impression but I was referring to names like "Helmut Johann Ludwig von Moltke" or "Gerhard Johann David von Scharnhorst" that in terms of extension would be rare these days,in my opinion.

Hardwig
Thursday, November 10th, 2005, 06:29 AM
Interesting. The same here after the end of the last war.

From what i can understand under the lines in your brief post, phenotypical composition too, has changed in Germany during the last 200 years (and especially in the last 100) : in few words, after every single, historical, military defeat, German Folk has lost somewhat of its most original racial/phenotypical stock. Some kind of gradual decadence, starting with the dissolution of elite social classes. Aristocracy, for example, in this case. Kull,I must say that I have this same sensation,I went in Bavaria some years ago and there are plenty of blondes,but I think that in present days this can be among the "blondest" regions of Germany.Comparing some pictures of Germans from different regions,I don't know why but I always see more blondes in Munich.I know some people who claims that many modern Germans has foreign blood,maybe this had changed the original composition,especially in Northern parts.

Dr. Solar Wolff
Thursday, November 10th, 2005, 07:05 AM
It seems that all those people with "von" in their names immigrated to America. Actually, this is somewhat of a joke since it appears that many German immigrants simply added a "von" to their name upon arrival. I love to question suspects about this when I encounter them.

Agrippa
Thursday, November 10th, 2005, 12:52 PM
You think aristocratic families or the elite send their own son's to war? Your delusional.

The losses of the aristocracy were quite high in all wars, especially in the last two. Alone if you look how many officers died in combat, were executed after the coup and after the war or commited suicide in desperate situations and after the war was lost...

Huzar
Thursday, November 10th, 2005, 01:07 PM
The losses of the aristocracy were quite high in all wars, especially in the last two. Alone if you look how many officers died in combat, were executed after the coup and after the war or commited suicide in desperate situations and after the war was lost...


Obvious. A defeat means , for the ruling class, the lost of their traditional privileged role. Instead, lower classes are much less propense to the extreme sacrifice : indeed their position doesn't change too much ; they're "doomed" to be ruled in every case (or better : this is what marxism teaches : "class war" rather than health nationalism).

Aptrgangr
Thursday, November 10th, 2005, 01:19 PM
You think aristocratic families or the elite send their own son's to war? Your delusional.

All my male ancestors who were aristocratics wore uniform, went to war and served duty for their fatherland! My grandpa e.g was severely wounded by defending the Atantik-Wall, his father served as captain in the Imperial German Navy.
I think I know what you mean, during the 18th cent. e.g (noble) officers often were spared from direct fire etc.

Agrippa
Thursday, November 10th, 2005, 01:34 PM
Obvious. A defeat means , for the ruling class, the lost of their traditional privileged role. Instead, lower classes are much less propense to the extreme sacrifice : indeed their position doesn't change too much ; they're "doomed" to be ruled in every case (or better : this is what marxism teaches : "class war" rather than health nationalism).

Thats absolutely true, especially if the defeat is "total" and the war that desperate like it was especially in WW2 but in WW1 as well. The main reason why the elite types die out or get at least reduced in a decadent society is simply that they get less children on average for various reasons. But I elaborated that in many posts already. Facts speak for itself.

Ragnaroek
Thursday, November 10th, 2005, 02:14 PM
Germany's Elites

Somebody ask about me? :D

Nordgau
Thursday, November 10th, 2005, 02:35 PM
I recognise that I made a unaccurate comment,maybe is just a wrong impression but I was referring to names like "Helmut Johann Ludwig von Moltke" or "Gerhard Johann David von Scharnhorst" that in terms of extension would be rare these days,in my opinion.

People--"vons" or not--often still have two or three Christian names today, but most people just use the first one. You also find Moltke for example in history books normally just appearing as Helmuth von Moltke.

It could be that in former days, however, people tended more to really call themselves and to let themselves be called with all their Christian names.

I also have got a second Christian name, but it is "inactive" normally, and I only shake it out of my sleeve when I have to give my full name in official documents etc. There's much dust lying on it. :P

Waarnemer
Friday, November 11th, 2005, 09:54 PM
The losses of the aristocracy were quite high in all wars, especially in the last two. Alone if you look how many officers died in combat, were executed after the coup and after the war or commited suicide in desperate situations and after the war was lost...

The number of ordinary soldiers in the military is always much higher than among officers, so likewise casualties is the highest in the former.. and thus if there is an impact after all, the biggest would come from the common man.
Some say that aristocratic families, subracially would be more "progressive" than the men in the street. And that's the question, and whole idea behinde Kull's sick opinion.

Agrippa
Saturday, November 12th, 2005, 05:42 AM
The number of ordinary soldiers in the military is always much higher than among officers

That can only be true for officers in staff, officers in combat have very high, often even the highest losses in modern wars.

Elite
Saturday, November 12th, 2005, 08:54 AM
Germany still has royalty but they are quiet dissapointing as role models and racially too. :P

Waarnemer
Saturday, November 12th, 2005, 10:39 AM
That can only be true for officers in staff, officers in combat have very high, often even the highest losses in modern wars.
No they don't.

Slå ring om Norge
Friday, January 20th, 2006, 03:36 PM
General Dietl and his troops are highly respected in the North.

The German troops were known as disciplined , social, and clever persons. Many became friends.

http://www.ibiblio.org/hyperwar/UN/UK/UK-NWE-Norway/UK-NWE-Norway-13.html