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Evolved
Monday, September 1st, 2003, 08:47 AM
These nearly extinct people are interesting for sometimes having fair hair, light eyes & skin (by Pakistani standards :P), their resistance to abandon their culture, and their supposed Macedonian/Greek/Cretan origin. Like most small minorities -there are only 3000-4000 of them :( - they have absorbed genes from the majority population.

http://us.news2.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/p/nm/20030806/mdf329902.jpg
A young woman from the Kalasha tribe in the northern valley of Bumburet near Chitrall, shows her traditional facial tattoos made using mulberry juice on July 7, 2003. The Kalasha are a tiny non-Muslim tribe some believe descend from the ancient armies of Alexander the Great. The tribe has clung to traditional ways of life in the face of energetic attempts to convert them to Islam or Christianity.

http://www.brain.net.pk/~pedd/kalash.jpg
http://www.nba.fi/MUSEUMS/KULTMUS/pakistan.JPG
http://home6.inet.tele.dk/nitschke/images/kalash_stort.jpg
http://www.phf.sdnpk.org/Images/Kalash12.jpg

In French with pictures (http://perso.wanadoo.fr/aventures.voyages/passions/Peuples%20du%20monde/Kalash/Kalash.htm)
In Dutch (http://utopia.knoware.nl/users/ststef/kalash1.htm)
A bit about them here (http://www.sfakia-crete.com/sfakia-crete/outsidecrete.html)
Kalash Valley (http://www.hgp.com.pk/kalashvalley.htm)

PAGAN KALASH REGIONAL FESTIVALS
It is believed that the people numbering 3 to 4 thousand living in the Chitral District of NWFP are connected to the old Greek civilization. The tourists visiting NWFP also visit one of the world's ancient tribe of Kalash people and their civilization during their following festivals each year.

Name of Festival/Dates
Cheelim Jusht (Spring Festival)/2nd week of May
Uchal (Summer Season Festival)/2nd week of August
Pur (Autumn Festival)/2nd week of October
Cheetermas (Winter Festival)/3rd week of December

Evolved
Monday, September 1st, 2003, 08:50 AM
On the subject of Pakistan, I also found this warrior from Northern Pakistan. I classified him as Nordish and was laughed at... :scratch
http://www.malcolmmacgregor.com/mujihadeen.jpg

Loki
Monday, September 1st, 2003, 09:16 AM
Very interesting info about the Kalasha... I didn't know remnants of Alexander's Greeks still lived so far out east in the old empire. Truly amazing.

Your second picture looks definitely Europid...

Frans_Jozef
Monday, September 1st, 2003, 10:51 AM
Very interesting info about the Kalasha... I didn't know remnants of Alexander's Greeks still lived so far out east in the old empire. Truly amazing.

Your second picture looks definitely Europid...

Both are Europid for sure and their fair skin can hide away that they partially belong to the Armenid race, this is apparent by the fleshy, broadish noses , with wide alae and thickened but depressed nose tip; the nose bridge might well be convex and the Kalasha man seems typical in the absence of a nasion depression, a Bogennase?
But neither in general countenance nor in facial outline, do they represent the actual Armenid race.
Big, hooked or bent noses are dominantly inherited, so we may surmise that the original stratum consisted of Nordids and Cromagnids, who gradually absorbed Orientalid blood of which the thick, eversed lips, wide open eyes with its curiously sickly lanquidity and convex noses are evidence.

Vojvoda
Monday, September 1st, 2003, 05:27 PM
Very interesting info about the Kalasha... I didn't know remnants of Alexander's Greeks still lived so far out east in the old empire. Truly amazing.

Your second picture looks definitely Europid...

Interesting but probable. Reminds me of the Cincari in Serbia and elsewhere in the Balkans who claim to be descendants of the Roman Legionnaires.

ScotchTape
Monday, September 1st, 2003, 07:30 PM
THis was posted at another discussion forum

http://www.piczonline.com/client/pictures/kalahs9475.jpg

child from the wakhan area of pakistan(what is that, is it inhabited by tajiks?)
http://www.piczonline.com/client/pictures/wakhit9.jpg
alhthough i am not really sure, these ladies might be pathan
http://www.piczonline.com/client/pictures/prev9.jpg
afghan pathan
http://www.piczonline.com/client/pictures/afghanpathan.jpg
girl from ayun, near chitral
http://pro.corbis.com/images/watermark/67/10805410/EK001873.jpg
boy from Pasu
http://www.piczonline.com/client/pictures/boy_mtns_Pasu_jpgpak.jpg
girl from baltistan
http://www.piczonline.com/client/pictures/baltistan.jpg
pathan boys in peshawar
http://www.piczonline.com/client/pictures/peshpak1.jpg
kalash
http://pro.corbis.com/images/watermark/67/12730243/QU001354.jpg
chitral
http://pro.corbis.com/images/watermark/67/14009359/0000383717-004.jpg
gulmit
http://pro.corbis.com/images/watermark/67/10201258/WR002561.jpg
people in hunza
http://pro.corbis.com/images/watermark/67/10790864/JB001966.jpg
man from hunza(the very short one)
http://pro.corbis.com/images/watermark/67/10643950/RH010019.jpg
kids from hunza
http://pro.corbis.com/images/watermark/67/10734606/SU002813.jpg
man from hunza
http://pro.corbis.com/images/watermark/67/10658510/GR010414.jpg
hunza kids
http://pro.corbis.com/images/watermark/67/10688487/UB004519.jpg

Isobel Shaw in her book Pakistan said that the people of Hunza reminded her of Irish people back home with their auburn hair, light eyes and ruddy cheeks.
Nuristanis, the cousins of Kalash have 30% blondism. It could be the same case with the Kalash.

Tore
Monday, September 1st, 2003, 11:11 PM
the cousins of Kalash have 30% blondism.

Hmmm...

What is "blondism" defined as in this case?

ScotchTape
Tuesday, September 2nd, 2003, 12:14 AM
Hmmm...

What is "blondism" defined as in this case?

I think it said blond hair combined with blue/green eyes. I'll try to find the link.

ScotchTape
Tuesday, September 2nd, 2003, 12:18 AM
Here's one link. I'll try to find a more scientific one.
Also, blondism is probably more prevalent in children who probably account for the 30%
http://club.telepolis.com/trotamon/afgan/af_et_i.htm

Anyways, I have some pictures of Pakistani people who exhibit "white" traits if anyone wants to see them.(in my special folder Whites in Nonwhite lands)

ScotchTape
Tuesday, September 2nd, 2003, 12:28 AM
Actually, the Kalash are losing their culture but they are still the same people. I mean, Nuristanis number 500,000 or something(correct me if I am wrong) and though they are muslim, they are basically the same people.
According to one theory, Kalash were the people who fleed the forced conversion to Islam by some Afghan ruler and went to hide in the high mountains of the Hindu Kush.
Oh, and I am sorry, the article said that they exhibit blondism exceeding 30% in CERTAIN REGIONS not as a whole.

Evolved
Tuesday, September 2nd, 2003, 01:36 AM
I got an account at Corbis, it's a great source of anthropology photos. :cool

This girl is beautiful. :angel

Evolved
Tuesday, September 2nd, 2003, 01:55 AM
More pink skinned Pakistanis
:smilies

ScotchTape
Tuesday, September 2nd, 2003, 02:15 AM
I got an account at Corbis, it's a great source of anthropology photos. :cool

This girl is beautiful. :angel

REally?? I find her odd looking.

cosmocreator
Tuesday, September 2nd, 2003, 07:08 PM
I got an account at Corbis, it's a great source of anthropology photos. :cool

This girl is beautiful. :angel


The nose isn't attractive.

Loki
Tuesday, September 2nd, 2003, 07:35 PM
The nose isn't attractive.

I guess nobody's perfect. She looks amazingly Nordish, though. Fair hair and very European features... could be mistaken for a Slav anytime. Now don't :crucified me for this observation please. :cig

Loki
Tuesday, September 2nd, 2003, 07:38 PM
Jeez... I would never have guessed this one is a Pakistani. How do you know he is, LG?

http://www.forums.skadi.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=2955

ScotchTape
Tuesday, September 2nd, 2003, 11:53 PM
One of my friend(pakistani) has a Webshot account of Pakistani people pictures, a lot of them are light eyed or light skinned. I'll ask him for the link and will post it up soon.
2 attached pictures of Pakistani people. The girl is from the north and the boy is from the southern city of Karachi.
By the way, LG, how did you know the pinkfaced guy was a Pakistani?

Evolved
Tuesday, September 2nd, 2003, 11:59 PM
A girl sent his picture into one of the physical anthropology groups on Yahoo. :)

Evolved
Wednesday, September 3rd, 2003, 12:02 AM
http://www.forums.skadi.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=2964

Is this pre-rhinoplastic Gweneth? :D

Loki
Wednesday, September 3rd, 2003, 12:11 AM
http://www.forums.skadi.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=2964

Is this pre-rhinoplastic Gweneth? :D

Europid or not, she's not my idea of a hot date....

ScotchTape
Wednesday, September 3rd, 2003, 12:26 AM
A girl sent his picture into one of the physical anthropology groups on Yahoo. :)

Really?? What was the reply?

Oh and the girl certainly does have an ugly nose. A lot of people from that area have noses like that.

ScotchTape
Wednesday, September 3rd, 2003, 12:41 AM
Here is the link. http://community.webshots.com/user/ol_skool_josh
There are lots of pictures in here and I took the time to look at all of them. LOL got lots of free time on my hand.




The picture attached is the one I liked the most. The other one was too big to attach.

Evolved
Wednesday, September 3rd, 2003, 06:01 AM
Is someone going to lynch me for saying some of those Pakis are very cute? The cute ones are never those online at 2:00AM. :wsg So yes, I admit honestly a physically appealing (Nordish or classic Med-like) non-European caucasoid is preferable IMO to an ugly person of European-descent (for instance Danny Devito). :D

2 more Eastern Aryans:

First: A young Afghan refugee wears a turban to Muslim Friday prayers in Chitral. North West Frontier Province, Pakistan. (he's adorable :love but I wouldn't wear a burqa for him. :insulted).

Second: An Afghan man sits in the Karim Abad quarter in the city of Zahedan, in southeastern Iran, which is mainly populated by Afghan refugees, 7 November 2001. (nice eyes, otherwise not too special).

Loki
Wednesday, September 3rd, 2003, 07:11 AM
Is someone going to lynch me for saying some of those Pakis are very cute?

Heh, this statement is watering down the one you made about Jesus!! :D

Evolved
Wednesday, September 3rd, 2003, 08:29 AM
Jesus is really not my type, that whole goody-goody martyrdom "turn the other cheek" thing is a big turn off, too. :D

Frans_Jozef
Wednesday, September 3rd, 2003, 10:31 AM
Jesus is really not my type, that whole goody-goody martyrdom "turn the other cheek" thing is a big turn off, too. :D


It's all in the Eye of the Beholder how ideas are conceived and interpretations are taken.

You can see this "turn the other cheek" theme in a positive way, negating the worthyness and plump bullying of your opponent by mocking his assaults, he would be taken aback, albeit furious stopped in the middle of his new swerve, which gives you the chance to have a grip on his wrist and whack him alternative to the floor...

Another way to meditate this submission, could very well be that you ignore evil done to you, because you believe in a higher form of retaliation mediated by your opponent wrongdoing; it's related to the principle known in Taoism as wei-wu-wei, to act without acting, and without smutting your own hands, the opponent suffers from his action by the very nature of his evil deed, washed down by its effect; unlike in Christianity, this abstinence has an aristocratic nature, a virtue by which one doesn't abase oneself to low actions and remains unperturbated by chaotic emotional distress.

ScotchTape
Thursday, September 4th, 2003, 12:29 AM
First: A young Afghan refugee wears a turban to Muslim Friday prayers in Chitral. North West Frontier Province, Pakistan. (he's adorable :love but I wouldn't wear a burqa for him. :insulted).


HAHAHAH! LOL!

Evolved
Thursday, September 4th, 2003, 10:55 PM
Blue eyed Afghan boy :)
http://www.hotornotafghans.com/pics/4345.jpg

They're mostly like this, bad fashion sense and trying too hard to be cool or look like gangsta rappers.
:smoke ---> :fist
http://www.hotornotafghans.com/pics/4305.jpg

That site is not so much about judging levels of "hotness" but trying to find at least 5 people who aren't hideous. :lol

ScotchTape
Wednesday, September 10th, 2003, 03:13 AM
Blue eyed Pakistanis

http://www.piczonline.com/client/pictures/dscn2084.jpg
http://www.piczonline.com/client/pictures/balochi3465.jpg


I dont know if this one is a real kalasha or a tourist.
http://www.piczonline.com/client/pictures/kalash4234.jpg

Evolved
Thursday, September 11th, 2003, 09:22 AM
The first guy I attached to this thread because I didn't want to waste a new thread on it. He's a Pakistani, and I've never seen a modern human look like him!


Tribalman Adam Khan makes a point in Jamrud, near the eastern Pakistani city of Peshawar, on October 1, 2001. Against sophisticated U.S. military might, tribal support for their Afghan neighbours across the border might only include automatic assault rifles and a few rocket launchers, but they also bring a solidarity of faith. "We have bigger missiles ... we have faith in Allah and for Islam I am ready to lay down my life," Khan said.

He looks like a very primitive humanoid, the shape of his mouth and teeth, and especially his skull. It is almost as if he's a modern human crossbred with this (http://www.geocities.com/ladygoeth33/600000.jpg ) 600,000 year old East African creature. You can't see it completely, but you can tell how low it is by looking at the curve of his forehead. I doubt his brain is the same size as a modern human. I'm going to have nightmare about him I think. :scared

The second pic is of a green-eyed female Pakistani Taliban supporter.


A pro-Taliban Muslim woman wears a headband with the Arabic words "No God But Allah" during a protest by Pakistani women in Lahore, October 16, 2001. The women were demonstrating against the U.S. bombing campaign in Afghanistan

The other features can't be seen, however, but from the looks of things they are not worth mentioning anyway. If only the guys had to cover their faces too, talk about an aesthetic utopia. :D

Evolved
Thursday, September 11th, 2003, 09:58 AM
Some interesting discussion going on here (http://forumhub.com/tnhistory/19107.04.40.40.html). :D

Pomor
Thursday, September 11th, 2003, 04:03 PM
Either it is some kind of an optic illusion or this guy was born with some really bad birth-defect. Actually I've seen something of this kind amongst some azeris (not that scary though), so maybe it is genetical but unlikely.

torrent
Thursday, September 11th, 2003, 07:34 PM
Either it is some kind of an optic illusion or this guy was born with some really bad birth-defect. Actually I've seen something of this kind amongst some azeris (not that scary though), so maybe it is genetical but unlikely.
yes Wend i have seen this kind of man too. he was blue eyed and light haired. probably some kurganid type.

Evolved
Saturday, September 13th, 2003, 02:10 AM
This thread has inspired new levels of racial paranoia in a certain former member. :arab :paranoid And seeing as I started the thread, I am being blamed even though I wasn't the one who mentioned him. :sway

Euclides
Friday, March 5th, 2004, 04:34 AM
http://www.forums.skadi.net/showthread.php?t=8619

Razmig
Friday, March 5th, 2004, 08:42 AM
lady, it doesnt take you too long to take anthropology and turn it into a joke :(

Hindi
Friday, March 5th, 2004, 02:12 PM
http://www.b4utv.com/modelwatch/images/abhinav1.jpg



http://www.b4utv.com/modelwatch/abhinav.html


Red haired Brahmin from India
All light haired Indians and Pakis are actually descendant from Aryans even the Pathans. Some state tribes are descendant from Greeks or Scyths while this isn't really certain. Blondism in Pakistan and North India among young children isn't an unusual thing, the hair gets darker after they grow older though.
Interesting topic Ladygoeth.

Hindi
Friday, March 5th, 2004, 02:30 PM
Light eyed Indians..
1st. pic Kashmiri children (the most beautiful eyes i have ever seen)
Further , some Hindi film stars.(no coloured contacts, lol)

Agrippa
Friday, March 5th, 2004, 06:24 PM
Indo "Aryan" type. Mainly Nordindid, some Mediterranid and Asian Alpines. Some look even like they may have Nordid admixture.

http://www.forums.skadi.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=2970

This one is a good example for a Nordindid, although they usually have narrower noses and seldom that blue eyes.

Razmig
Friday, March 5th, 2004, 10:37 PM
you people dont seem to realize something, that if these people did not have "light eyes" you would completely dismiss them as "non-whites"...also your forgetting there are 1.2 billion people in india alone, every 1 light eyed person in india is equal to .0001 light eyed people in say, greece or italy...if your going to take anthropology seriously and study anthropologists, realize that Coon had reason for saying that pigmentation does not tell race, and also, before making comments like "he looks ok to me" or "i think they look good/cute" realize that your making a mockery of anthropology

i dont see how else to say it, but attraction has nothing to do with the matter, simply because people find light eyes more attractive does not mean that these indians are any "whiter" than other indians, most indians are of similar types, and even the Kalash in Pakistan have more similarities to other Indo-Aryans, and less so to Greeks, Thracians or Anatolians

im sick of seeing people post pictures of bollywood actors/actress' and hand picked national geographic photos, all indo-aryan indians and pakis are CAUCASIAN, and that means EUROPID! more so than some inhabitors of modern day europe (turkmens), remnants of asiatic invasion

ScotchTape
Saturday, March 6th, 2004, 03:09 AM
Light eyed Indians..
1st. pic Kashmiri children (the most beautiful eyes i have ever seen)
Further , some Hindi film stars.(no coloured contacts, lol)

THe first picture you posted is of Marsh Arabs not Kashmiris.
Secondly, not all Pashtuns kids born with light hair have dark hair as adults. As a matter of fact most of the Pashtuns I have encountered in life had very light hair and some of the women especially had blond hair.

ScotchTape
Saturday, March 6th, 2004, 03:16 AM
you people dont seem to realize something, that if these people did not have "light eyes" you would completely dismiss them as "non-whites"...also your forgetting there are 1.2 billion people in india alone, every 1 light eyed person in india is equal to .0001 light eyed people in say, greece or italy...if your going to take anthropology seriously and study anthropologists, realize that Coon had reason for saying that pigmentation does not tell race, and also, before making comments like "he looks ok to me" or "i think they look good/cute" realize that your making a mockery of anthropology

i dont see how else to say it, but attraction has nothing to do with the matter, simply because people find light eyes more attractive does not mean that these indians are any "whiter" than other indians, most indians are of similar types, and even the Kalash in Pakistan have more similarities to other Indo-Aryans, and less so to Greeks, Thracians or Anatolians

im sick of seeing people post pictures of bollywood actors/actress' and hand picked national geographic photos, all indo-aryan indians and pakis are CAUCASIAN, and that means EUROPID! more so than some inhabitors of modern day europe (turkmens), remnants of asiatic invasion

Razmig there's a very widely believed theory that Kalasha people are descended from Greeks. I dont particularly believe it but its very widely believed.
Turkmens are almost completely Mongoloid and they dont live in modern day Europe.
Light eyes are usually a good indicator that someone has Caucasian blood to some degree. If the eyes are accompanied with light skin, tall stature and finer features than the person is probably more "white".
I dont believe the crap that light eyes are caused by mutations. If that was so, why dont we see many fully mongoloid people with blue eyes but mixed people are more likely to.

Razmig
Saturday, March 6th, 2004, 10:01 AM
Razmig there's a very widely believed theory that Kalasha people are descended from Greeks. I dont particularly believe it but its very widely believed.
Turkmens are almost completely Mongoloid and they dont live in modern day Europe.
Light eyes are usually a good indicator that someone has Caucasian blood to some degree. If the eyes are accompanied with light skin, tall stature and finer features than the person is probably more "white".
I dont believe the crap that light eyes are caused by mutations. If that was so, why dont we see many fully mongoloid people with blue eyes but mixed people are more likely to.
there ARE fully blown mongoloids with light eyes, in regions of japan such as Rumoi, there are depigmented Japanese who have been there for many years, and we studied them in one of my classes, there are also tribes of africans who have bred albino types and there are PLENTY of albino africans, who have freckles, blonde hair and blue eyes...so do you mean to tell me, that a blue eyed half mongoloid is more "caucasoid" than a greek? bullshit...and more bullshit...

Razmig
Saturday, March 6th, 2004, 10:03 AM
THe first picture you posted is of Marsh Arabs not Kashmiris.
Secondly, not all Pashtuns kids born with light hair have dark hair as adults. As a matter of fact most of the Pashtuns I have encountered in life had very light hair and some of the women especially had blond hair.
when have you met pashtuns? btw pashtun is a language not a people...so is farsi...amidst farsi and pashtun speaking groups there are different tribes...
also, dont be confused by national geographic photos, the sun can change the color of hair very much so, considering the afghanis spend just about all day in the sun, youll notice many of them have dark roots (they are still caucasoids tho, despite what color hair they have)

Graeme
Saturday, March 6th, 2004, 12:23 PM
I haven't been to Afghanistan or Pakistan and probably never will. So I have to rely on what others have investigated. What I have found out is that the Kalash are Kafirs who speak Kalasha and claim to be descended from the original, Macedonian Greek men. I have also tried to find lots of photographs of these black Kafirs and found plenty, but none are blond, blue eyed or fair skinned. By and large they look quite brown skinned and in features, Indic. The Hunza valley people also claim ancient Macedonian forefathers and are said to be fair in phenotype. Some are light eyed but fair skinned or fair haired is definitely exaggerated. Studies of Pushtuns (Pathans) have shown that they are as blond and light eyed as todays Greeks; Blondism is a minority phenotype in Greece.

So I guess I believe the claims of Nordic like people in Afghanistan and Pakistan to be exaggerated. Light eyed people when found tend to be dark haired and dark skinned, and in other features, look like their dark eyed neighbours.

Turkmen (not the Iraqi Turkomen) refugees have been taken in by Turkey, and some of them may probably be living in Europe today, especially Germany. Turkmen are very mongoloid in appearance similar to Mongols. There are certainly Turkmen immigrants from Turkey living in Australia.

Hindi
Saturday, March 6th, 2004, 01:09 PM
These are Kashmiri gypsies, lol@ Marsh Arabs

Frans_Jozef
Sunday, March 7th, 2004, 01:08 AM
What's Gypsy about the Ma'Daan or Marsh Arabs?
They inhabitate on floating reed villages the moorlands north of Basra(Iraq); what makes them so interesting is that are likely to descend in a straight line from the Sumerians and Babylonians, and while they turned to Shiia Islam, their lifestyle refects a continious semi-nomadic way of living based on reed gathering, water buffalo herding and fishing for 5000years.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/dna/h2g2/A762716

Two drawings of Marsh Arabs, an old lady and a young boy; note the almond-shaped form of the eyes and the long-bridged, slightly snubbed nose of the woman:

Razmig
Sunday, March 7th, 2004, 01:11 AM
These are Kashmiri gypsies, lol@ Marsh Arabs
How can a Gypsy (Hindi) be a Gypsy in his own nation? ;(

Razmig
Sunday, March 7th, 2004, 01:20 AM
I haven't been to Afghanistan or Pakistan and probably never will. So I have to rely on what others have investigated. What I have found out is that the Kalash are Kafirs who speak Kalasha and claim to be descended from the original, Macedonian Greek men. I have also tried to find lots of photographs of these black Kafirs and found plenty, but none are blond, blue eyed or fair skinned. By and large they look quite brown skinned and in features, Indic. The Hunza valley people also claim ancient Macedonian forefathers and are said to be fair in phenotype. Some are light eyed but fair skinned or fair haired is definitely exaggerated. Studies of Pushtuns (Pathans) have shown that they are as blond and light eyed as todays Greeks; Blondism is a minority phenotype in Greece.

So I guess I believe the claims of Nordic like people in Afghanistan and Pakistan to be exaggerated. Light eyed people when found tend to be dark haired and dark skinned, and in other features, look like their dark eyed neighbours.

Turkmen (not the Iraqi Turkomen) refugees have been taken in by Turkey, and some of them may probably be living in Europe today, especially Germany. Turkmen are very mongoloid in appearance similar to Mongols. There are certainly Turkmen immigrants from Turkey living in Australia.

I think your evaluation is fair, however, Afghanis as a whole are NOT dark skinned, but that is besides the point. What is important here is people don't seem to realize the Afghans are the decendants of the Indo-Aryans regardless, blue eyes and blonde hair does not indicate "whiteness" because the Greeks were not Nordics, and the majority of Greeks had Med pigmentation, this does not mean that they could carry traits of blondism, because like Coon said, ALL Caucasoid races are capable of all types of pigmentation. The Macedonians (not Hellenes, but Thracians) settled in Tajikistan, mainly, and throughout remote regions of Afghanistan, since then, considering that Aleksander orders his men to have as many relations with as many women as he could (essentially have sex with all the women in Iran and Afghanistan) to combine the people of Anatolia and the Balkans, with those in Iran and Afghanistan as one people, and prevent further outbreaks for freedom, the Afghans have mingled with those settlers, and are descendants of them as well.

Not to forget that TURKOMANS, and TURKMENS are the same people,

"The Turkoman remained for centuries a nomadic people, physically and psychologically distant from the comfortable life of cities, from assimilation into anybody else's world. I believe that this absolute sense of identity, achieved at whatever cost, provides the foundation for their art."

The Turkomans in Iraq are either remnants of early Turkmen invaders, or recent Turkmen/Uzbek immigrants to Iraq...also, there is heavy Chinese immigration to Central Asia, and is probably an indication that China will soon dominate Western Turkmenistan as well as currently controlling much of Eastern Turkmenistan and Tibet.

ScotchTape
Sunday, March 7th, 2004, 01:32 AM
Hindi, you can go to corbis.com and do a search for marsh arabs and that picture will come up.
I have certainly seen blond haired pashtuns and no its not the sun lightening their hair. I have lived in South Asia and South East Asia and the Pashtuns especially the women are often very fair skinned and light eyes and hair are observed. BTW, the women stay indoors a lot. A lot of travellers have also noted the fair pigmentation and "European" looks of the northern Pakistanis.

Razmig
Sunday, March 7th, 2004, 01:55 AM
Hindi, you can go to corbis.com and do a search for marsh arabs and that picture will come up.
I have certainly seen blond haired pashtuns and no its not the sun lightening their hair. I have lived in South Asia and South East Asia and the Pashtuns especially the women are often very fair skinned and light eyes and hair are observed. BTW, the women stay indoors a lot. A lot of travellers have also noted the fair pigmentation and "European" looks of the northern Pakistanis.
If you did infact live in the region, you would know that Afghani women are forced to work outside, be it preparing food or what have you, the women and children are the ones who build houses, and only the men are allowed in the fields. I'm not doubting that there are light haired pashtuns, that has 0% significance.

Take a look at this family, seemingly dark haired parents with a light haired child.

http://www.womenscommission.org/images/ss_af/afss03.jpg

Such hair can be caused by a) mal-nutrition, or b) over exposure to sunlight, which can cause thinning of the hair, and loss of permanent pigmentation (much like what happens when hair greys). Ever wonder why some Africans, or Maoris have blonde tips or light brown hair? In any case, like I said, this has nothing to do with the race of the Afghans, they are Indo-Aryans and nothing other than.

http://www.ariseproject.org/images/global_afghans%20copy.gif

ScotchTape
Sunday, March 7th, 2004, 09:35 PM
I mentioned going to Pakistan not Afghanistan.
Razmig, its kinda annoying how if Afghans or other Eastern countries are light haired then its because of malnutrition or the sun but if its Armenians with light hair its because of their purity.
A lot of Pakistani Pashtuns work outdoors too and a lot of them have dark hair but I am just pointing out the fact that some have a tendency to have light hair and its not because of malnutrition or the sun or anything.

And the picture you posted, maybe the little boy has light hair that will darken as he ages. How come the girl next to him doesn't have light hair too? Its a fact in many places of Afghanistan that boys are better fed than girls.

Transformer
Sunday, March 7th, 2004, 11:55 PM
Razmig says it's malnutrition and ScotchTape says the boy is well fed?

Can better food cause a loss or gain of pigmentation?

which one is right?;(

In order to produce a protein (melanin) extravagntly (darkening your hair serves no purpose in this age) you need to be well fed, I think.

Persons similar to "Pre-historic" pathan are seen 'rarely' only in the northern population; which remained isolated too long from the main population of Pakistan, mainly because of geographical barriers.

Because of intermarriages with the indigenous pakistani people (belonging to indus valley civilisation; the darker people) most light skinned invaders have gained the pigmentation for the good. Mostly, the urban successful people look like a hybrid, while in backward rural populations, people are either very dark or very light skinned.

cannistraro
Monday, March 8th, 2004, 12:17 AM
ALL Caucasoid races are capable of all types of pigmentationThat's not true.....first of all, he said the rediculous claim of Arabids as being Caucasoids. And then he says the false claim that Arabs can have all types of pigmentation. That's not true, all pure arabids have black hair, and dark eyes. There is no binding "caucasoid" element ANYWHERE whatsoever. All Indo europeans share a common light type element, but Arabids aren't Indo Europeans. There is no "Caucasoid" binding factor....Only a Indo European one. Don't put Arabid Semitics from the desert peninsula of Southwest Asian Gulf into a category of Indo Europeans from Europe, and central asia.

Afghanis, Iranians and many central asian groups are Indo Aryan speakers. Many seem to have light hair, especially pronounced in childhood. Some are mixed with Dravidian, or Arabid or Mongolid giving them a mixed look with their kids can be of any appearance. Central asian Indo Europeans are Nordid like their European descendants.

ScotchTape
Monday, March 8th, 2004, 02:16 AM
Razmig says it's malnutrition and ScotchTape says the boy is well fed?

Can better food cause a loss or gain of pigmentation?

which one is right?;(

In order to produce a protein (melanin) extravagntly (darkening your hair serves no purpose in this age) you need to be well fed, I think.

Persons similar to "Pre-historic" pathan are seen 'rarely' only in the northern population; which remained isolated too long from the main population of Pakistan, mainly because of geographical barriers.

Because of intermarriages with the indigenous pakistani people (belonging to indus valley civilisation; the darker people) most light skinned invaders have gained the pigmentation for the good. Mostly, the urban successful people look like a hybrid, while in backward rural populations, people are either very dark or very light skinned.
Transformer, I dont know if the boy is well fed or not. I am just trying to point out the fact to Razmig, that blond hair can and does appear among pashtuns and doesn't necessarily mean that the person is underfed.
I agree with the rest that you said except I dont understand what you mean by the "prehistoric pathan"? What do they look like?

Razmig
Monday, March 8th, 2004, 03:03 AM
I mentioned going to Pakistan not Afghanistan.
Razmig, its kinda annoying how if Afghans or other Eastern countries are light haired then its because of malnutrition or the sun but if its Armenians with light hair its because of their purity.
A lot of Pakistani Pashtuns work outdoors too and a lot of them have dark hair but I am just pointing out the fact that some have a tendency to have light hair and its not because of malnutrition or the sun or anything.

And the picture you posted, maybe the little boy has light hair that will darken as he ages. How come the girl next to him doesn't have light hair too? Its a fact in many places of Afghanistan that boys are better fed than girls.

How are Armenians in the cities comparable to starving Afhgan refugees? Like I said, there are plenty of Afghans with light hairs, but the fact remains that many of the children have these discolored hairs because of malnutrition and over exposure to sun. There might be some Armenian refugees in Azerbaijan, but as a whole, Armenians are no where comparable to the poverty of the Afghan people.

Please point out anywhere were I claimed the misleading fact that if an Armenian had "light" hairs, that he was somehow "pure" ? Like I said many times before, which was the original point of me commenting on the issue, that the color of an Afghans hair should NEVER play a role in his/her classification, because like I pointed out, there are Africans who are Albino, therefor making them more Caucasoid than a dark skinned Afghan? Eh, I don't think so. The Afghans are the direct decendants of the Indo-Aryans, more so than any Northern European will ever be.


Razmig says it's malnutrition and ScotchTape says the boy is well fed?

Can better food cause a loss or gain of pigmentation?

which one is right?;(

In order to produce a protein (melanin) extravagntly (darkening your hair serves no purpose in this age) you need to be well fed, I think.

Persons similar to "Pre-historic" pathan are seen 'rarely' only in the northern population; which remained isolated too long from the main population of Pakistan, mainly because of geographical barriers.

Because of intermarriages with the indigenous pakistani people (belonging to indus valley civilisation; the darker people) most light skinned invaders have gained the pigmentation for the good. Mostly, the urban successful people look like a hybrid, while in backward rural populations, people are either very dark or very light skinned.

You do need proteins to produce melanins, but then again the Nordics ate MOSTLY proteins and not carbs like those in the south. So I think its more regional climate and other factors that will essentially effect the overall pigmentation of an inbred group. But the fact remains, malnutrition will definnetly cause improper depigmentation (that means that this depigmentation is not a gene that was handed down from the parents) rather a failure for the body to create proper protection from the sun. Do you honestly think that the majority of people in Greece and Afghanistan didn't need pigmentation to protect them from the sun? Again, pigmentation has nothing to do with race, much like all anthropologists have said, it is due to intermarriages between certain peoples (inbreeding) and selective partnerships in Europe, and surprising enough, even in Northern Japan.

Razmig
Monday, March 8th, 2004, 03:07 AM
That's not true.....first of all, he said the rediculous claim of Arabids as being Caucasoids. And then he says the false claim that Arabs can have all types of pigmentation. That's not true, all pure arabids have black hair, and dark eyes. There is no binding "caucasoid" element ANYWHERE whatsoever. All Indo europeans share a common light type element, but Arabids aren't Indo Europeans. There is no "Caucasoid" binding factor....Only a Indo European one. Don't put Arabid Semitics from the desert peninsula of Southwest Asian Gulf into a category of Indo Europeans from Europe, and central asia.

Afghanis, Iranians and many central asian groups are Indo Aryan speakers. Many seem to have light hair, especially pronounced in childhood. Some are mixed with Dravidian, or Arabid or Mongolid giving them a mixed look with their kids can be of any appearance. Central asian Indo Europeans are Nordid like their European descendants.

You couldnt be more wrong. The Arabids ARE a Mediterannean race, I don't know what your thinking. So there is now more than 3 races? Caucasoid, Mongoloid, Negroid, and Arabid? Hmm...Arabid children do have very dark hair, but like I said, all Caucasoids, even all RACES (ever heard of albinism?) are capable of all different types of pigmentation. How does this make "black haired" Arabs non Caucasoid? I understand not being white (blonde haired, blue eyed, pink skinned, long faced) but why non-Caucasoid? There are Arabs in Syria, and Lebanon, who are mostly born with very light hairs, does that make them more caucasoid then dark haired children in Sicily?

Sometimes language doesnt indicate race very well. The Turks speak an Altaic (Asiatic language), as do the Finns and Hungarians, although you will often times find amongst them partialy mongoloid types, the majority of them will have absorbed the original inhabitors of those lands (Caucasoids). If you study the face of many Southern Arabs (Bedouins) you will see that if it was not for their dark pigmentation, they could very much pass for Northern Europeans.

Razmig
Monday, March 8th, 2004, 03:09 AM
Transformer, I dont know if the boy is well fed or not. I am just trying to point out the fact to Razmig, that blond hair can and does appear among pashtuns and doesn't necessarily mean that the person is underfed.
I agree with the rest that you said except I dont understand what you mean by the "prehistoric pathan"? What do they look like?
If you read my post carefully, you will see that I attatched a photo of a naturally partially blonde Afghani boy (Pashtun are not a people but a language btw).

cannistraro
Monday, March 8th, 2004, 04:28 AM
If you study the face of many Southern Arabs (Bedouins) you will see that if it was not for their dark pigmentation, they could very much pass for Northern Europeans.You have it all wrong. First of all, many europeans and middle easterners are mixed with each other. If you find the purest, original examples of each type, there is no more similarity then between a Nigerian and a Swede.
The negro boy doesn't look any less white then this most pure example of a Arabid to the right of him http://activities.almawakeb.sch.ae/gallery/Activities%20of%202001-2002/Campus%20Life/Around%20School%20(Al%20Barsha%20Boys)/102.jpg (http://activities.almawakeb.sch.ae/gallery/Activities%20of%202001-2002/Campus%20Life/Around%20School%20(Al%20Barsha%20Boys)/102.jpg) When you apply total seperation of the Indo European Nordid and the Pure Arabid you see no such greater similarity then a negroe with a Nordid. http://activities.almawakeb.sch.ae/gallery/Activities%20of%202001-2002/Campus%20Life/Around%20School%20(Al%20Barsha%20Boys)/150.jpg http://us.i1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/i/fifa/gen/tr/pl/s/179515.jpg http://activities.almawakeb.sch.ae/gallery/Activities%20of%202000-2001/Campus%20Life/Science%20Fair/39.gif I have arabs twice as pure as Osama.

ScotchTape
Monday, March 8th, 2004, 06:39 AM
If you read my post carefully, you will see that I attatched a photo of a naturally partially blonde Afghani boy (Pashtun are not a people but a language btw).
Yes, I agree. Pashtuns are people of very diverse origins who speak a common language.
I agree with most of what you said but in your original response I got the message that you think all Afghans/Pathans are lighthaired only because of their malnutrition.

Razmig
Monday, March 8th, 2004, 09:51 AM
You have it all wrong. First of all, many europeans and middle easterners are mixed with each other. If you find the purest, original examples of each type, there is no more similarity then between a Nigerian and a Swede.
The negro boy doesn't look any less white then this most pure example of a Arabid to the right of him http://activities.almawakeb.sch.ae/gallery/Activities%20of%202001-2002/Campus%20Life/Around%20School%20(Al%20Barsha%20Boys)/102.jpg When you apply total seperation of the Indo European Nordid and the Pure Arabid you see no such greater similarity then a negroe with a Nordid. http://activities.almawakeb.sch.ae/gallery/Activities%20of%202001-2002/Campus%20Life/Around%20School%20(Al%20Barsha%20Boys)/150.jpg http://us.i1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/i/fifa/gen/tr/pl/s/179515.jpg http://activities.almawakeb.sch.ae/gallery/Activities%20of%202000-2001/Campus%20Life/Science%20Fair/39.gif

Dude, your so far out there. Picking and choosing doesnt really work, unless youve actually BEEN to Saudi Arabia, please do not talk. Coon described the Bedouins as the purest form of Mediterannean, and if you doubt that Med Arabids are of the Europid race, then your questioning anthropology as a whole, and speaking purely out of some built up self hate. I may not like the majority of Arabs, but I happen to find their lifestyle and customs interesting, and by traveling the purest form of Arabic nations (Saudi Arabia, Yemen, Oman) and other Bedouin inhabited regions, I can say myself, the levels of admixtures of negroid judging by the geographical location of the Arabs and dealing with African slaves is VERY low, if not only concentrated in the southern regions and Egypt.

Razmig
Monday, March 8th, 2004, 09:53 AM
Yes, I agree. Pashtuns are people of very diverse origins who speak a common language.
I agree with most of what you said but in your original response I got the message that you think all Afghans/Pathans are lighthaired only because of their malnutrition.
Again, Scotchtape, re-read my post, I clearly stated that there will always exists natural blondes amongst that, that only to be aware of the fact that the majority of these children are malnurished, over exposed to elements, and have imporer living habits. Afghans, and Pakis are Aryans through and through.

cannistraro
Monday, March 8th, 2004, 07:56 PM
Dude, your so far out there. Picking and choosing doesnt really work, unless youve actually BEEN to Saudi Arabia, please do not talk. Coon described the Bedouins as the purest form of Mediterannean, and if you doubt that Med Arabids are of the Europid race, then your questioning anthropology as a whole, and speaking purely out of some built up self hate. I may not like the majority of Arabs, but I happen to find their lifestyle and customs interesting, and by traveling the purest form of Arabic nations (Saudi Arabia, Yemen, Oman) and other Bedouin inhabited regions, I can say myself, the levels of admixtures of negroid judging by the geographical location of the Arabs and dealing with African slaves is VERY low, if not only concentrated in the southern regions and Egypt.You do not have a family that has Pure Arabid do you? I happen to have a father that is around Purely Arabid. I know what Arabid is, and I know how extreme it can get and I know all the specific traits of Arabids by that, personally. I can tell you them, and the differences in Arabids and Nordids, and I know for fact the "purely arabs" Coon used in his publication was in fact, falsely chosen.

Razmig
Tuesday, March 9th, 2004, 05:42 AM
You do not have a family that has Pure Arabid do you? I happen to have a father that is around Purely Arabid. I know what Arabid is, and I know how extreme it can get and I know all the specific traits of Arabids by that, personally. I can tell you them, and the differences in Arabids and Nordids, and I know for fact the "purely arabs" Coon used in his publication was in fact, falsely chosen.
Then you doubt all that anthropology stands for...why bother picking and choosing, create your own theory.

cannistraro
Tuesday, March 9th, 2004, 10:13 PM
Then you doubt all that anthropology stands for...why bother picking and choosing, create your own theory.
;)
Race Orientalid The Arabids from the Arabian peninsula and the Jews
Race Nordindid Comprises the Indo European Aryans Of Asia and Europe
Race Hamitid Aboriginal North African Berberids. Original Iberians
Race Indid Dravidic South Indians, bearers of the Indus Valley civilization
Race Mongolid East Asians
Race Negrid Sub Saharan Africa
Race Australid Aboriginal australians and South Indian tribals
Race Americanid Aboriginal Native americans

Razmig
Wednesday, March 10th, 2004, 07:32 AM
;)
Race Orientalid The Arabids from the Arabian peninsula and the Jews
Race Nordindid Comprises the Indo European Aryans Of Asia and Europe
Race Hamitid Aboriginal North African Berberids. Original Iberians
Race Indid Dravidic South Indians, bearers of the Indus Valley civilization
Race Mongolid East Asians
Race Negrid Sub Saharan Africa
Race Australid Aboriginal australians and South Indian tribals
Race Americanid Aboriginal Native americans
Don't worry, most people fail on their first attempt.

Firstly, Orientalid does not = Arab, and the fact that you considered a religion (Judaism) a racial class tells me you lack backing in your anthropological knowledge. Secondly, Indid is NOT a Dravidic, but is a stabilized admixture. And lastly, Americanids (I'm assuming means "Native American") seems that odd considering the oldest bones found in the Americas was that of a caucasoid, and not a Mongoloid (there are no aboriginis in America, the inhabitors have migrated there far too recently to be aboriginal).

cannistraro
Wednesday, March 10th, 2004, 09:10 PM
Don't you realise that's just the name I picked to name the races?


Secondly, Indid is NOT a Dravidic, but is a stabilized admixture That is the name I used for the original Dravidian inhabitants of India. I called them Indid, all that is, is a name. I put a lot of thought in the race system I concluded, it's based on looks, languages are very important too.

Race Orientalid The Arabids from the Arabian peninsula and the Jews
Race Nordindid Comprises the Indo European Aryans Of Asia and Europe
Race Hamitid Aboriginal North African Berberids. Original Iberians
Race Indid Dravidic South Indians, bearers of the Indus Valley civilization
Race Mongolid East Asians
Race Negrid Sub Saharan Africa
Race Australid Aboriginal australians and South Indian tribals
Race Americanid Aboriginal Native americans

What is wrong about it? All other people are mixed.

Razmig
Thursday, March 11th, 2004, 08:35 AM
Don't you realise that's just the name I picked to name the races?

That is the name I used for the original Dravidian inhabitants of India. I called them Indid, all that is, is a name. I put a lot of thought in the race system I concluded, it's based on looks, languages are very important too.

Race Orientalid The Arabids from the Arabian peninsula and the Jews
Race Nordindid Comprises the Indo European Aryans Of Asia and Europe
Race Hamitid Aboriginal North African Berberids. Original Iberians
Race Indid Dravidic South Indians, bearers of the Indus Valley civilization
Race Mongolid East Asians
Race Negrid Sub Saharan Africa
Race Australid Aboriginal australians and South Indian tribals
Race Americanid Aboriginal Native americans

What is wrong about it? All other people are mixed.
You can not hijack previously used names for races. If your going to write your own book, think of your own ideas.

Abby Normal
Wednesday, March 17th, 2004, 06:46 PM
Don't you wish all Arabs/Iranians/Pakistanis looked like this? :D
http://www.movieactors.com/photos-misc/lawrenceofarabia2.jpeg

(Just kidding, I know he's actually an Irish guy playing a British guy... But his light skin and blue eyes do look better with that turban than average Arab features do! ;) )

cannistraro
Wednesday, March 17th, 2004, 08:29 PM
I disagree! Well lol, I guess in everyones own race they like members of a similar phenotype to them. When you guys show Northern Europeans, how do you think people like me feel?

Abby Normal
Wednesday, March 17th, 2004, 08:33 PM
I disagree! Well lol, I guess in everyones own race they like members of a similar phenotype to them. When you guys show Northern Europeans, how do you think people like me feel?
Were you referring to my Lawrence of Arabia picture? (Heh heh heh. :D He does make a good Arab! ;) )

Abby Normal
Thursday, March 18th, 2004, 07:35 AM
This girl is beautiful. :angel
I also think she is beautiful! She and Lawrence would make a good couple (except for the fact that Lawrence belongs to me! ;)
http://www.forums.skadi.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=2952

Abby Normal
Thursday, March 18th, 2004, 07:43 AM
Aha! Seems I've found a boyfriend for the previous girl. Lawrence is STILL mine, hahahaha! ;)
http://www.forums.skadi.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=2955

Abby Normal
Saturday, March 20th, 2004, 03:14 AM
Don't you wish all Arabs/Iranians/Pakistanis looked like this? :D
http://www.movieactors.com/photos-misc/lawrenceofarabia2.jpeg

(Just kidding, I know he's actually an Irish guy playing a British guy... But his light skin and blue eyes do look better with that turban than average Arab features do! ;) )
I still agree with myself... And that is written, heehee!

Razmig
Saturday, March 20th, 2004, 03:43 AM
Wasn't this a post about Pakistanis?

Abby Normal
Sunday, March 21st, 2004, 07:29 PM
Wasn't this a post about Pakistanis?
It was supposed to be, but I have a talent for turning any discussion into a discussion of Lawrence of Arabia.;)

cannistraro
Sunday, March 21st, 2004, 10:04 PM
That aint no arab LOL! I'll show you a real arab, I like this pic

http://img28.photobucket.com/albums/v83/abdul/rtfgvfrtvfvb.jpgMuch more appropriate!

Abby Normal
Sunday, March 21st, 2004, 11:39 PM
Yes, much more appropriate, but undoubtedly less attractive than my Lawrence! ;)