PDA

View Full Version : The Bell Curve (Richard Herrnstein and Charles Murray)



Tore
Saturday, August 30th, 2003, 02:48 AM
I recently picked up my copy of "The Bell Curve: Class Structure and Intelligence in American Life" from my local library.

From what I have read so far, I will note the major points outlined by Herrnstein and Murray.

Intelligence in General

General Points regarding intelligence which are agreed unanimously upon in the mainstream scientific community:

1. General cognitive ability exists, and differs from individual to individual.

2. This factor is measured to some degree by all standerized tests of adademic aptitude, and is measured best by an IQ test.

3. One's score by which an IQ test yeilds shows a correlation with what is generally considered to be "smart" or "intelligent".

4. IQ scores tend not to fluctuate throughout one's life and tend not to vary with age.

5. IQ tests, when properly administered, do not show a bias towards any particular Socioeconomic or Racial group.

6. Cognitive Ability is between 40% and 80% inherent.


Theories of Intelligence

Classical Theory: Intelligence as a Structure

Ppoposes that g, or general cognitive ability is the structurally most important element of human intelligence, representing the core of human mental ability.

depending on the doctrine of which classicist one adheres to, g may be represented in the form of simply one primary mental ability (Spearman), or many (perhaps as numerous as 120) primary mental abilities (Guilford).

outlines that modern IQ tests generally measure g to a considerable degree.


Theory of Revisionism: Intelligence as Processing Information

emphasizes process as opposed to structure when pertaining to intelligence

places importance on how people process the information they receive, as oppose to how adept people are at doing so, and how individuals compare to one another

agree's with classicist theory in that g exists, although is not the source of much of the variation in human intelligence that is seen


Radical Theory: Theory of Multiple Intelligence

the radical theory views absolute intelligence as indefinable, and rejects the concept and existence of g

pictures intelligence as being present in many different forms and abilities (Verbal, Logical, Kinesthetic etc)

has yet to be supported by quantitative or empirical data



Intelligence and Race

Differences in Intelligence among Blacks and Whites

the difference in intelligence between Whites and (American) Blacks is generally understood to be one standard deviation (15 IQ points) in favour of Whites

this difference is understood to be largely, although not exclusively, genetic in origin

the intelligence gap between Blacks and Whites is lowest among those in the lowest Socio-Economic category, and greatest among those in the highest.


Differences in Intelligence among Whites and East Asians

the differences in intelligence between Whites and East Asians in generally understood to be between 2-6 IQ points, with 3 (1/5 of a standard deviation) IQ points used as the most common figure

As with the Black-White gap, this disparity is thought to have a significant genetic component

East Asians generally score roughly 10 IQ ( 2/3 of a standard deviation) points above Whites in terms of performance (Visuo-Spatial) IQ, yet typically also score 3 IQ points below Whites in terms of Verbal IQ.

Vigilant
Sunday, August 31st, 2003, 07:58 PM
It was a bestseller in the US in 1994.That was quite a feat for a high-brow technical book.Statistics aren't easy.What I like about it is the manner of predicting group outcomes from one simple test.Inequality by Design made a serious attempt to undermine the Bell Curve's findings by adding multiple variables to socioeconomic status.Very contrived,and ponderous in comparison.

Sigrun Christianson
Sunday, August 31st, 2003, 09:12 PM
That is a great book, no question. It shows in simple terms that no amount of equality of opportunity will ever equal equality of outcome.

I've had this recurring argument with my dear Mother, whom I totally love even though she is a liberal who thinks with her heart instead of head, about evolution. She agrees that climate, environment, etc. are responsible for our different skin types, hair colors, allergies, and other easily measured indicators of race, but she just cannot admit that it's even possible that these same factors changed our brains and spirits.

Tore
Sunday, August 31st, 2003, 10:47 PM
I've had this recurring argument with my dear Mother, whom I totally love even though she is a liberal who thinks with her heart instead of head, about evolution. She agrees that climate, environment, etc. are responsible for our different skin types, hair colors, allergies, and other easily measured indicators of race, but she just cannot admit that it's even possible that these same factors changed our brains and spirits

I have the had the very same argument with my parents many times over. :)

Unregistered
Thursday, September 4th, 2003, 11:14 AM
So East Asians have the highest IQs, right?

Jack
Thursday, September 18th, 2003, 12:29 AM
Just thought I'd throw in a highly interesting artical on The Bell Curve by Yggdrasil - it was enlightening, to say the least.


YGGDRASIL

Race Bias #15 - "Why 'The Bell Curve' is so Dangerous"

Liberal integrationists never mention the real reason they are frightened to death of "The Bell Curve." Dozens of critical reviews and propagandistic critiques have appeared in the popular press. A massive smear campaign is on. As it happens, there is an excellent reason for this smear campaign.

Buried deep in the book is data so explosive that it cannot be mentioned publicly.

The liberals are hoping that if you read the book, you will concentrate on the passages dealing with differences in the distribution of intelligence between races.

Educated people have known about the heritability of intelligence ever since Jensen published his "Genetics and Education" in 1972.

Ditto for differences in average distribution of intelligence by race - old news.

The integrationists are making all kinds of noise about peripheral issues.

Over the past few weeks Yggdrasil has posted excerpts from a series of news reports of specific race preference schemes carried out by businesses voluntarily in the private sector. Each has a specific example of discrimination against European- Americans.

While these articles are illuminating, all that they really prove is that discrimination against European-Americans occurred in the specific instances discussed in each article.

This is what we call "anecdotal evidence". It proves nothing about the _extent_ of discrimination against European-Americans as a whole, nationwide. The articles only prove that it has occurred.

But Herrnstein and Murray have given us something much more powerful than anecdotal evidence of discrimination. They have given us statistical evidence of the extent of job discrimination against European-Americans, and the extent of that discrimination is going to shock you.

When you measure the occupational attainments of samples of whites, blacks and hispanics with equal numbers of people with the same mental abilities, blacks have twice the number of people in high status occupations as whites, and latinos 1.5 times more than whites of the same ability.

The affirmative action programs and race preferences for people of color have resulted in blacks obtaining twice the number of desirable jobs at any given ability level as whites.

The discussion appears on page 321.

"But after controlling for IQ, the picture reverses. The chance of entering a high-IQ occupation for a black with an IQ of 117 (which was the average IQ of all the people in these occupations in the NLSY sample) was twice the proportion of whites with the same IQ. Latinos with an IQ of 117 had more than a 50% higher chance of entering a high-IQ occupation than whites with the same IQ. This phenomenon applies across a wide range of occupations, as discussed in more detail in Chapter 20."

In other words, you cannot measure discrimination by simply measuring the absolute number or percentage of European-Americans in high IQ jobs. To test for discrimination you must correct for the fact that there are many more European-Americans with high IQs as a percent of the population.

To test for discrimination, you have to test equal numbers of persons of the same ability, and when you do that, you find that blacks get twice the number of good jobs. For Latinos, it is 1.5 times the number of good jobs.

That is statistical evidence of massive discrimination against European-Americans.

As an aside, it was an article by this same Charles Murray, quoted in Yggdrasil's Lesson 4, that aroused Yggdrasil from his long period of inactivity.

In that article, Professor Murray pointed out that the illegitimacy rate among European-Americans had reached 24%, a tipping point at which additional illegitimacy and societal decay accelerate dramatically.

As you read this, an army of 5 million illegitimate young European-American male babies is being born. They will be young adults in 20 years.

The Ygg may be too old to participate when things get really hot 20 years from now, but heat up they will!

It is going to be a very exciting 20 years. -- Stay tuned!

Yggdrasil-

Thoughts?

Greeneyeddevil63
Monday, September 29th, 2003, 04:06 PM
I remember when i was a sophmore in college, and was, for all intents and purposes, partially brainwashed with liberal ideas. Yet, the truth is that I hadn't yet begun to fathom or understand until I took a serious look at Charles Darwin, who, like Nietszche, slices the apple in two to reveal all the worms. It's not a pretty sight to realize, or be forced to look at, the truth. By the time you're in your twenties your ideas are fixed, crystalized even, and it's hard to toss out the BS that you held to be true for so long.

At the time I thought the bell curve was right wing propaganda... and that's true to an extent, but there are facts there... and you can't ignore them... and that is what all the controversy is about. My Political Science teacher was really all consumed with it... as if she'd had some religious experience with it, but what turned me off was that she didn't make good arguments... and she didn't do the book justice. Whether or not you agree with the numbers... regardless of how accurate they may be with regards to racial I.Q.... you smell the truth in there don't you??? At the time I wasn't ready to see it, but I think the authors of the Bell Curve are giving people too much, too soon, and instead should have printed the bell curve volume I... , then after all the rebuttals died down, give us all another dose of the truth. They really should do a second one to hammer it out a little more.

They are right though in saying that the primary reason that some people(s) are on the bottom of the socio-economic scale is because they are low in cognitive ability. There is a definite and unmistakable correlation there and I simply can't ignore it...

check out Robert Dahl ... "Who Governs?" and "Polyarchy"

Dr. Solar Wolff
Wednesday, October 29th, 2003, 05:42 AM
The Bell Curve is really just an outgrowth of 30 year old data. A professor at the University of California did a twin study in 1969. He used twins, seperated at a young age and raised in totally differnet environments. He found that even with environment being a variable, the intelligence of the twins was almost identical. He concluded that the heritability of intelligence was at least 90%. Natually, his sample size was statistically significant. Forests died and were processed into paper as the acedemic world moved against this professor. Another professor at Stanford named Shockley who was given credit for inventing the transistor and the Nobel Prize, championed this idea. He was also discredited. Nevertheless, the statistical argument is sound. The inheritance of intelligence is beyond question. Nurture plays only a very, very minor role.

Loach
Friday, March 19th, 2004, 01:09 AM
Asians and jews both have higher average IQs than whites, however there is some evidence suggesting that they have narrower distribution ranges, accounting for the higher frequency of geniuses among the white race. The white standard of deviation for IQ is 15, while I have seen asians and jews estimated at about 8.6, or 8.9. Therefore, while the chances are that if you meet an asian or a jew on the street they are going to be smart, because they are more clustered around their mean, there is a smaller chance you are going to meet an asian or jewish genius, at the highest level.

Also, as was said, on an average level: Asians have high visuo-spatial and low verbal IQ, jews have high verbal and low visuo-spatial IQ, and whites are in the middle for both. However, it seems, and i believe there have been tests on the subject, that whites have higher creative intelligence than either group. The ability to understand and manipulate is different from the ability to actually create when there is nothing to build on in the first place.

My theory is that greater white intuitiveness can be accounted for by a stronger right hemisphere of the brain. This would also account for my observation that whites tend to be more talented in the areas of music and art than asians or jews. The left hemisphere is said to control logic, mathematical and verbal reasoning, sequencial thinking, and the like, whereas the right side controls creative thinking, music, art, random thought processes, etc. This, along with a wider distribution range, could very well be the factor that sets us apart from the other intellectual races, and accounts for our success throughout the ages.

nordic_canadian_male
Friday, March 19th, 2004, 01:48 AM
I believe that whites are under achievers when compared to asians and jews, this is shown by our larger standard deviation of IQ. I've always noted how asians and jews are more dedicated to their studies, whites are more restless and prefer to dedicate time a band or another creative project.(whites are also more likely to become depressed, and to lose faith in society, a sign of higher inteligence, although not the best example but that corolation does exist.)

I also beleive whites to be the smartest race. One can only totally eliminate the enviromental influence of IQ when you look at top 1% of people only. Once you do that Whites outnumber jews and asians by alot when speaking of amount relative to population. Whites have the greatest minds, and most beautiful souls, It's a shame our race won't be around for much more than another 100 years.

Tore
Tuesday, May 11th, 2004, 05:37 AM
this is shown by our larger standard deviation of IQ

Why does a larger standard deviation automatically indicate that the full potential of a population remains unfullfilled? It has been shown that men possess a larger standard deviation in terms of IQ when compared to women.
Are they underachievers as well? Mediterraneans possess a larger IQ standard deviation than Northern and Central Europeans. Do you make the same assumption in this case too?


I've always noted how asians and jews are more dedicated to their studies,[QUOTE]

This tendency exists with races as well as between races.

Intelligent Whites typically possess greater work ethic and dedication than less intelligent Whites.

[QUOTE]whites are more restless and prefer to dedicate time a band or another creative project.

A valid point, although the same could be applied to Blacks when in comparison to Whites.


.(whites are also more likely to become depressed, and to lose faith in society, a sign of higher inteligence,

This is false.

Rushton notes that the Mongoloid race is more predisposed to depression than Whites or Caucasoids, who in turn are more likely to become depressed than Blacks.


One can only totally eliminate the enviromental influence of IQ when you look at top 1% of people only.

Again, this is incorrect.

Jensen has proven that the 20% or so of non-genetic influence towards intelligence in adulthood is almost entirely related to unshared, rather than shared, environmental factors, namely prenatal events which are largely random in nature (blood-antigen incompatability etc). Thus, socio-economic disparities are of little relevance in terms of molding one's cognitive ability in adulthood (shared environmental factors are important in childhood and adolescence only).


Once you do that Whites outnumber jews and asians by alot when speaking of amount relative to population.

Asians perhaps.

Eastern European Jews, however, have a mean IQ which is one whole standard deviation higher than that of Whites. Therefore, the White distribution must be characterized by an excessive amount of variance in order for your statement to be valid.


It's a shame our race won't be around for much more than another 100 years.

Tryggvi
Tuesday, May 11th, 2004, 07:28 AM
Intelligent Whites typically possess greater work ethic and dedication than less intelligent Whites. Source?


Rushton notes that the Mongoloid race is more predisposed to depression than Whites or Caucasoids, who in turn are more likely to become depressed than Blacks. How was this established?


Jensen has proven that the 20% or so of non-genetic influence towards intelligence in adulthood is almost entirely related to unshared, rather than shared, environmental factors, namely prenatal events which are largely random in nature (blood-antigen incompatability etc). Thus, socio-economic disparities are of little relevance in terms of molding one's cognitive ability in adulthood (shared environmental factors are important in childhood and adolescence only). Jensen also estimated that on average about 80% of the IQ in the American post-industrialized society is biologically determined. If I understand you correctly, then 20% (unshared environmental factors) of 20% (non-biological factors) is 4% of the total IQ potential. Even if one assumed a random distribution within these four percent, it appears to be rather insignificant for most individuals compared to the other determining factors - genetic, biological, shared environmental factors, and their interaction?

Tore
Tuesday, May 11th, 2004, 11:34 PM
Source?

This was extracted from Rushton's "Race, Evolution, and Behaviour" where it was established that conscientiousness and altruism were traits which experienced a postive correlation with IQ.

Unfortunately, I am unable to obtain the specific quote as the online abridged edition has omitted the chapter, and I am no longer in position of an actual hard copy of the book.


How was this established?

Again, the establisment was made in "Race, Evolution, and Behaviour" which examined the regional disparities in global suicide rates (with East Asia possessing the greatest figures, followed by Europe and North America, and lastly by Africa and the Caribbean).


Jensen also estimated that on average about 80% of the IQ in the American post-industrialized society is biologically determined. If I understand you correctly, then 20% (unshared environmental factors) of 20% (non-biological factors) is 4% of the total IQ potential.

I suppose I worded that poorly.

Jensen states that shared environmental influences are negligable and likely approximate zero (Jensen states that the absolute highest figure for shared environmental influence can be no more than 10%), with non-shared environmental influences constituting all of the non-genetic factors which are influential towards intelligence.

Tryggvi
Wednesday, May 12th, 2004, 01:35 AM
This was extracted from Rushton's "Race, Evolution, and Behaviour" where it was established that conscientiousness and altruism were traits which experienced a postive correlation with IQ.

Unfortunately, I am unable to obtain the specific quote as the online abridged edition has omitted the chapter, and I am no longer in position of an actual hard copy of the book. Surely. I don't doubt your words, I was just interested in the method.


Again, the establisment was made in "Race, Evolution, and Behaviour" which examined the regional disparities in global suicide rates (with East Asia possessing the greatest figures, followed by Europe and North America, and lastly by Africa and the Caribbean). Interesting. I was interested in the method here, too. I figured they might have compared endorphine levels or neurotransmitter quantities and absorption rates, as many popular anti-depression medication decreases their reabsorption.

Suicide rates seem to correlate significantly with social, environmental, political and economic conditions, however. Less suicides amongst those without financial stress, those who live on the country-side, those without partnership problems, those with a caring family, those who don't live in involuntary solitude, for example. They also seem to fluctuate highly within Europe. I remember that Hungary once had a suicide rate more than double as high as most other European countries (including those behind the former Iron curtain). Statistics also seem to be frequently unrealiable. Many a suicide has been classified as "drugs overdose" or "accident."

I would be interested in more data, if anyone has any to share.


I suppose I worded that poorly.

Jensen states that shared environmental influences are negligable and likely approximate zero (Jensen states that the absolute highest figure for shared environmental influence can be no more than 10%), with non-shared environmental influences constituting all of the non-genetic factors which are influential towards intelligence. Thanks for the clarification.

Makes sense to me: the more "equal" the society becomes (providing in the West now free access to comfortable shelter, toys, schooling, libraries, radio, TV, information, &c. to everyone), the larger the genetic influence on intelligence will become.

The Horned God
Wednesday, February 22nd, 2012, 04:54 PM
i1YYZjsDsxQ

IQ and society
Examples of how IQ matters.