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Loki
Friday, August 29th, 2003, 03:35 PM
Classify famous Norwegian, Knut Hamsun.

http://www.ub.uib.no/avdeling/billed/gammel%20side/portrett/hamsund0.jpg

Loki
Friday, August 29th, 2003, 03:38 PM
A picture of him in his olden days:

http://www.grimstad.net/images/Hamsun.jpg

Vojvoda
Friday, August 29th, 2003, 04:30 PM
Definitely corded....Tronder IMO.

Polak
Friday, August 29th, 2003, 05:02 PM
Somewhere in between an Anglo-Saxon and Corded Nordic. But definitely Nordic, and certainly with Corded features.

Pomor
Friday, August 29th, 2003, 05:07 PM
Definitely corded....Tronder IMO.

I don't see UP in him. His face is to narrow for that, imo.

Loki
Friday, August 29th, 2003, 05:17 PM
This is how Bertil Lundman illustrates the Tröndetypen:

http://www.fikas.no/~sprocket/snpa/bilder/dalarna07.jpghttp://www.fikas.no/~sprocket/snpa/bilder/dalarna08.jpg

I believe that Knut Hamsun essentially belongs to the same phenotype. The Tröndetypen can be found in both Sweden and Norway. This particular individual comes from Dalarna in Sweden, which is more commonly identified with the Dalo-Nordid type, also called Västmanlandstypen.

Pomor
Friday, August 29th, 2003, 05:35 PM
It must be the second pic that confused me. Yes, I guess he is troender than.

Loki
Friday, August 29th, 2003, 05:44 PM
It must be the second pic that confused me. Yes, I guess he is troender than.

I think the dividing line between the Gotatyp and Trondetyp is sometimes not very clear... and not all individuals will show a distinctive phenotype of one or the other.

Loki
Friday, August 29th, 2003, 05:48 PM
For comparison, here is Lundman's Götatyp, individual from Hardanger in southern Norway:

http://www.fikas.no/~sprocket/snpa/bilder/rastyper1.jpghttp://www.fikas.no/~sprocket/snpa/bilder/rastyper2.jpg

Allenson
Friday, August 29th, 2003, 06:00 PM
I think the dividing line between the Gotatyp and Trondetyp is sometimes not very clear... and not all individuals will show a distinctive phenotype of one or the other.


From what I can tell, Lundman's Gotatyp corresponds well with Coon's Hallstatt....?

I was thinking that Knut Hamsum might be Hallstatt but certainly as you mentioned Loki, the dividing line isn't always clear and cut.

Loki
Friday, August 29th, 2003, 06:14 PM
From what I can tell, Lundman's Gotatyp corresponds well with Coon's Hallstatt....?

I was thinking that Knut Hamsum might be Hallstatt but certainly as you mentioned Loki, the dividing line isn't always clear and cut.

Yes indeed, they are one and the same. I prefer the term "Gotatyp" over both "Hallstatt" and "Osterdalen"... Hallstatt for obvious irrelevant reasons (name attached to Celtic culture), and Osterdal in Norway is actually not the most typical Nordic area in Scandinavia. This prize will have to go to Telemark, in south-central Norway.

Lundman uses basically three criterion for selecting his areas of intensitet of the Nordic race (literally "intensity").

1) Blondness of hair (Telemark, and some areas in south western Sweden)
2) Lowest cephalic index (area surrounding Trondheim, Norway; also parts ofcentral Sweden)
3) Tallest stature (inner central Sweden)

All and all, Telemark (and immediate surrounds) seems to be the area which incorporates all three basic criterion the best, and is therefore possibly the most typical Gotatyp region in Scandinavia.

Pomor
Friday, August 29th, 2003, 06:32 PM
Yes indeed, they are one and the same. I prefer the term "Gotatyp" over both "Hallstatt" and "Osterdalen"... Hallstatt for obvious irrelevant reasons (name attached to Celtic culture), and Osterdal in Norway is actually not the most typical Nordic area in Scandinavia. This prize will have to go to Telemark, in south-central Norway.

Lundman uses basically three criterion for selecting his areas of intensitet of the Nordic race (literally "intensity").

1) Blondness of hair (Telemark, and some areas in south western Sweden)
2) Lowest cephalic index (area surrounding Trondheim, Norway; also parts ofcentral Sweden)
3) Tallest stature (inner central Sweden)

All and all, Telemark (and immediate surrounds) seems to be the area which incorporates all three basic criterion the best, and is therefore possibly the most typical Gotatyp region in Scandinavia.

Actually I can see a difference between the two Lundman's pics you've posted, the second face is more gracile, whether the first guy's features are really sharp. Hamsun is somewhere in between I believe.

Frans_Jozef
Friday, August 29th, 2003, 08:13 PM
I think the dividing line between the Gotatyp and Trondetyp is sometimes not very clear... and not all individuals will show a distinctive phenotype of one or the other.

the Troender vault, occiput and the entire cranio-skeletical siuation is much more rounded and his cheekbones retreat, whereas in the Gota type they tend to jut a bit out, in other aspects he approaches the steep-fronted UPs, but his face is both too long-faced and laterally narrowish to concord fully with e.g. the Norwegian Valle type(Bruenn according to Coon, North Atlantid in Deniker's estimation).
To be honest, I find Hamsun's face too large and wide, resulting in a rectangualr facial outline, which implies a solution of Up anyway, albeit turning in a Troender direction.
The narrow convex nose is Troender/Nordic in its essence.

Loki
Friday, August 29th, 2003, 08:41 PM
A picture to illustrate southern Norway's homogeneity - this is from a high school in Hardanger:

http://www.hardanger.fhs.no/filopplasting/bilder/P9060016.jpg

Azdaja
Friday, August 29th, 2003, 09:02 PM
Is the Gotatyp type considered to be Caspid or Atlantid? I wonder because I always took the "Scando-Nordid" - an Atlantid race - for "Hallstatt".
The Gotatyp, though, is surely high-skulled based on that pic.
If Gotatyp = Hallstatt, that would mean that the Hallstatt is (in Lundman's scheme) an 'eastern' race, right?

I'm sure these questions sound pretty stupid. It's just that I've only begun taking notes of Lundman's essays (the ones on SNPA) a couple days ago, and I am trying to learn as much as I can and straighten out my own assumptions when need be.

Loki
Friday, August 29th, 2003, 09:36 PM
Is the Gotatyp type considered to be Caspid or Atlantid? I wonder because I always took the "Scando-Nordid" - an Atlantid race - for "Hallstatt".
The Gotatyp, though, is surely high-skulled based on that pic.
If Gotatyp = Hallstatt, that would mean that the Hallstatt is (in Lundman's scheme) an 'eastern' race, right?

I'm sure these questions sound pretty stupid. It's just that I've only begun taking notes of Lundman's essays (the ones on SNPA) a couple days ago, and I am trying to learn as much as I can and straighten out my own assumptions when need be.

Lundman describes the Nordid race as belonging to the Atlantid Northwestern Low-Skulled Racial Group (Always With Low Frequencies of Blood Type Gene q). See: http://www.fikas.no/~sprocket/snpa/lundman-races4.htm


EUROPID OR WHITE PRIMARY RACE: Thin to medium-thick, mostly more-or-less light skin. Soft, smooth to wavy or curly hair and generally a stronger growth of beard. A rather narrow nose and generally thin lips. Types of body build: mostly juvenile (virile) and boreal, occasionally mature.

A. Caspid Southeastern High-Skulled Racial Group.

I. More boreal body build.

a) Face somewhat protomorphic.
1. Eye sockets often somewhat slanted. More-or-less high in frequency of blood type gene q.
+ Volgid Race: dark pigmented, very short-statured, thickset, long- to medium-skulled,
+ + East-Baltid Race: very light pigmented, taller, however thickset, round-headed with flat occiput. Eyes often situated somewhat flat in the face. Two subraces in this area of Europe.
2. Eyes direct, large upper iris: Pre-Pontid Race (extinct).

b) Face almost infantile.
1. Scando-Lappid Race: very short-statured, with very low face and round skull, rather dark pigmented. Very low frequency of blood type gene q and very high frequency of blood type gene p2. Also very unique in other serological traits.
2. East-Alpine Race: Similar, but less pronounced, traits. Much higher frequency of blood type gene q.

II. Progressive Procopomorphic Types - All Extremely Long-Skulled.

a) East-Mediterranean Race: dark pigmented, with many subraces.
1. The Pontid (in southern Russia).
2. The Iranid: partly influenced by the Arabid race, with narrow rectangular face.
3. The North-Indid: very tall, heavily bearded, large nose, and a high frequency of blood type gene q.
4. The Gangid: small, very gracile, with thin, sparse beard, and a high frequency of blood type gene q.
5. The Nesid (in the South Seas).
6. The Saharid or South-Mediterranean (in North Africa): rather tall and gracile, with a low frequency of blood type gene q.
7. The Aegyptid: very closely related to the Saharid, but with a high frequency of blood type gene q. b) The East-Nordid Subrace (of the low-skulled, fair North Race): similar to this North race in anthropological traits (almost disappeared through crossing).

III. Taurid Race: mature-boreal, with very high and round skull, very flat occiput and larger nose. At least two subraces: the very tall Dinarid with short arms and the mature-boreal, medium-sized Anatolid or Armenid (and the somewhat less pronounced Mtebid, with a very low frequency of blood type gene q, in the Caucasus).



B. Atlantid Northwestern Low-Skulled Racial Group (Always With Low Frequencies of Blood Type Gene q).

I. Long-Skulled (Dolichocephalic).

a. Palaeo-Atlantid Race: somewhat protomorphic, broad-nosed, very broad-faced, tall and robust, light-mixed in pigmentation. Low in the frequency of blood type gene p and high in blood type gene r.

b. Nordid Race: virile, more progressive, lighter in pigmentation. Three subraces: the broader-faced, more robust Faelish (Faelo-Nordid) subrace, the narrower-faced, more slender Scando-Nordid subrace, and the North-A tiantid subrace which is morphologically similar to the Scando-Nordid. The first two subraces are rather light-haired, while the North-Atlantid subrace is more dark-haired but at the same time light-eyed. The North-Atlantid subrace also has a higher frequency of blood type gene r and a lower frequency of p than the other two subraces.

c. Southern, Dark-Pigmented, Short-Statured Group:

1. Berid Race: more infantile-puerile, with low frequencies of blood type genes p and q.
2. Juvenile. + West-Mediterranean Race: horizontal eye-socket, with a more virile Basquid subrace. The ABO-allelic relationships, and also the Rh-system, are very unique in several ways in this subrace.
+ + Arabid Race: slanted eye-socket and almond eyes. Differentiated from the preceding races in facial morphology and facial dynamics. Also a very narrow and sloping forehead, with a distinct rhombicshaped face. A Syrid subrace, with a lower frequency of blood type gene r.

II. Round-Skulled (Brachycephalic): West-Alpine Race, infantile-boreal.

Frans_Jozef
Saturday, August 30th, 2003, 09:53 AM
Lundman describes the Nordid race as belonging to the Atlantid Northwestern Low-Skulled Racial Group (Always With Low Frequencies of Blood Type Gene q). See: http://www.fikas.no/~sprocket/snpa/lundman-races4.htm


[

The ovoid shape of the Gota/Hallstatt type is another distinctive traits which seperated this race from the Caspid range, where sphenoid and byrsoid forms seem to prevail, further the temporal width is greater among both Tungids and East Europids like the East Baltids and the so-called Borreby of Rogaland(probably rather an EB+Alpine Gautypus) than the parietal, while in Westerners the reverse should be more common.
The problem between Caspids and Mongolids is one of Parallelism in evolutionary development, although evaluating the skull module indices of West Europeans and Sibirids and Central Asians, there is a match in main values for lenght-breadth, lenght-height and height-breadth and a great discord with East Europe, Central Europe and even Italy.
In any event, the Nordish thesis is obsolete, West Europeans are simply incompatible with South Europids(as result of Natufid, Saharid and Armenoid admixture) as well despite blondish nordiform types with East Europeans(progressed neoteny leading to incipient physical mongoloidism and clustering some undiminished archaic traits from long before the actual divergence of Europids and Mongolids, thus rooted in a common Neanderthaloid phase).

Loki
Monday, September 15th, 2003, 07:53 PM
Here is what Knut Hamsun had to say about Adolf Hitler:

"Adolf Hitler: I am not worthy to speak his name out loud. Nor do his life and his deeds warrant any kind of sentimental discussion. He was a warrior, a warrior for mankind, and a prophet of the gospel for all nations. He was a reforming nature of the highest order, and his fate was to arise in a time of unparalleled barbarism, which finally felled him. Thus might the average western European regard Adolf Hitler. We, his closest supporters, now bow our heads at his death."

Väring
Saturday, October 7th, 2006, 01:23 PM
Trönder, and a good example at that.

Skalagrim
Saturday, October 7th, 2006, 07:43 PM
Lundman describes the Nordid race as belonging to the Atlantid Northwestern Low-Skulled Racial Group (Always With Low Frequencies of Blood Type Gene q). See: http://www.fikas.no/~sprocket/snpa/lundman-races4.htm


EUROPID OR WHITE PRIMARY RACE: Thin to medium-thick, mostly more-or-less light skin. Soft, smooth to wavy or curly hair and generally a stronger growth of beard. A rather narrow nose and generally thin lips. Types of body build: mostly juvenile (virile) and boreal, occasionally mature.

A. Caspid Southeastern High-Skulled Racial Group.

I. More boreal body build.

a) Face somewhat protomorphic.
1. Eye sockets often somewhat slanted. More-or-less high in frequency of blood type gene q.
+ Volgid Race: dark pigmented, very short-statured, thickset, long- to medium-skulled,
+ + East-Baltid Race: very light pigmented, taller, however thickset, round-headed with flat occiput. Eyes often situated somewhat flat in the face. Two subraces in this area of Europe.
2. Eyes direct, large upper iris: Pre-Pontid Race (extinct).

b) Face almost infantile.
1. Scando-Lappid Race: very short-statured, with very low face and round skull, rather dark pigmented. Very low frequency of blood type gene q and very high frequency of blood type gene p2. Also very unique in other serological traits.
2. East-Alpine Race: Similar, but less pronounced, traits. Much higher frequency of blood type gene q.

II. Progressive Procopomorphic Types - All Extremely Long-Skulled.

a) East-Mediterranean Race: dark pigmented, with many subraces.
1. The Pontid (in southern Russia).
2. The Iranid: partly influenced by the Arabid race, with narrow rectangular face.
3. The North-Indid: very tall, heavily bearded, large nose, and a high frequency of blood type gene q.
4. The Gangid: small, very gracile, with thin, sparse beard, and a high frequency of blood type gene q.
5. The Nesid (in the South Seas).
6. The Saharid or South-Mediterranean (in North Africa): rather tall and gracile, with a low frequency of blood type gene q.
7. The Aegyptid: very closely related to the Saharid, but with a high frequency of blood type gene q. b) The East-Nordid Subrace (of the low-skulled, fair North Race): similar to this North race in anthropological traits (almost disappeared through crossing).

III. Taurid Race: mature-boreal, with very high and round skull, very flat occiput and larger nose. At least two subraces: the very tall Dinarid with short arms and the mature-boreal, medium-sized Anatolid or Armenid (and the somewhat less pronounced Mtebid, with a very low frequency of blood type gene q, in the Caucasus).



B. Atlantid Northwestern Low-Skulled Racial Group (Always With Low Frequencies of Blood Type Gene q).

I. Long-Skulled (Dolichocephalic).

a. Palaeo-Atlantid Race: somewhat protomorphic, broad-nosed, very broad-faced, tall and robust, light-mixed in pigmentation. Low in the frequency of blood type gene p and high in blood type gene r.

b. Nordid Race: virile, more progressive, lighter in pigmentation. Three subraces: the broader-faced, more robust Faelish (Faelo-Nordid) subrace, the narrower-faced, more slender Scando-Nordid subrace, and the North-A tiantid subrace which is morphologically similar to the Scando-Nordid. The first two subraces are rather light-haired, while the North-Atlantid subrace is more dark-haired but at the same time light-eyed. The North-Atlantid subrace also has a higher frequency of blood type gene r and a lower frequency of p than the other two subraces.

c. Southern, Dark-Pigmented, Short-Statured Group:

1. Berid Race: more infantile-puerile, with low frequencies of blood type genes p and q.
2. Juvenile. + West-Mediterranean Race: horizontal eye-socket, with a more virile Basquid subrace. The ABO-allelic relationships, and also the Rh-system, are very unique in several ways in this subrace.
+ + Arabid Race: slanted eye-socket and almond eyes. Differentiated from the preceding races in facial morphology and facial dynamics. Also a very narrow and sloping forehead, with a distinct rhombicshaped face. A Syrid subrace, with a lower frequency of blood type gene r.

II. Round-Skulled (Brachycephalic): West-Alpine Race, infantile-boreal.

Nice scheme. But where is place for tall, light , high skulled
dolichocephalic or mesocephalic nordids and cromagnids?