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Ewergrin
Friday, August 29th, 2003, 03:19 AM
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=540&e=12&u=/ap/20030824/ap_on_re_mi_ea/iraq_ak_47_heaven_1 (http://)


This is a Tank crew, but it is still pretty interesting.

cosmocreator
Friday, August 29th, 2003, 03:30 AM
Link doesn't work.

Ewergrin
Friday, August 29th, 2003, 03:32 AM
U.S. Troops Use Confiscated Iraqi AK-47s
Sun Aug 24, 2:15 PM ET

By ANDREW ENGLAND, Associated Press Writer

BAQOUBA, Iraq - An American soldier stands at the side of an Iraqi highway, puts his AK-47 on fully automatic and pulls the trigger.

Within seconds the assault rifle has blasted out 30 rounds. Puffs of dust dance in the air as the bullets smack into the scrubland dirt. Test fire complete.


U.S. troops in Iraq (news - web sites) may not have found weapons of mass destruction, but they're certainly getting their hands on the country's stock of Kalashnikovs — and, they say, they need them.


The soldiers based around Baqouba are from an armor battalion, which means they have tanks, Humvees and armored personnel carriers. But they are short on rifles.


A four-man tank crew is issued two M4 assault rifles and four 9mm pistols, relying mostly on the tank's firepower for protection.


But now they are engaged in guerrilla warfare, patrolling narrow roads and goat trails where tanks are less effective. Troops often find themselves dismounting to patrol in smaller vehicles, making rifles essential.


"We just do not have enough rifles to equip all of our soldiers. So in certain circumstances we allow soldiers to have an AK-47. They have to demonstrate some proficiency with the weapon ... demonstrate an ability to use it," said Lt. Col. Mark Young, commander of the 3rd Battalion, 67th Armor Regiment, 4th Infantry Division.


"Normally an armor battalion is fighting from its tanks. Well, we are not fighting from our tanks right now," Young said. "We are certainly capable of performing the missions that we have been assigned, there's no issue with that, but we do find ourselves somewhat challenged."


In Humvees, on tanks — but never openly on base — U.S. soldiers are carrying the Cold War-era weapon, first developed in the Soviet Union but now mass produced around the world.


The AK is favored by many of the world's fighters, from child soldiers in Africa to rebel movements around the world, because it is light, durable and known to jam less frequently.


Now U.S. troops who have picked up AKs on raids or confiscated them at checkpoints are putting the rifles to use — and they like what they see.


Some complain that standard U.S. military M16 and M4 rifles jam too easily in Iraq's dusty environment. Many say the AK has better "knockdown" power and can kill with fewer shots.


"The kind of war we are in now ... you want to be able to stop the enemy quick," said Sgt. 1st Class Tracy S. McCarson of Newport News, Va., an army scout, who carries an AK in his Humvee.


Some troops say the AK is easier to maintain and a better close-quarters weapon. Also, it has "some psychological affect on the enemy when you fire back on them with their own weapons," McCarson said.


Most U.S. soldiers agree the M16 and the M4 — a newer, shorter version of the M16 that has been used by American troops since the 1960s — is better for long distance, precision shooting.


But around Baqouba, troops are finding themselves attacked by assailants hidden deep in date palm groves. Or they are raiding houses, taking on enemies at close-quarters.


Two weeks ago, Sgt. Sam Bailey of Cedar Falls, Iowa, was in a Humvee when a patrol came under rocket-propelled grenade and heavy machine gun fire. It was dark, the road narrow. On one side, there was a mud wall and palms trees, on the other a canal surrounded by tall grass.





Bailey, who couldn't see who was firing, had an AK-47 on his lap and his M4 up front. The choice was simple.

"I put the AK on auto and started spraying," Bailey said.

Some soldiers also say it's easier to get ammo for the AK — they can pick it up on any raid or from any confiscated weapon.

"It's plentiful," said Sgt. Eric Harmon, a tanker who has a full 75-round drum, five 30-round magazines, plus 200-300 rounds in boxes for his AK. He has about 120 rounds for his M16.

Young doesn't carry an AK but has fired one. He's considered banning his troops from carrying AKs, but hasn't yet because "if I take the AK away from some of the soldiers, then they will not have a rifle to carry with them."

Staff Sgt. Michael Perez, a tanker, said he would take anything over his standard issue 9mm pistol when he's out of his tank.

And the AK's durability has impressed him.

"They say you can probably drop this in the water and leave it overnight, pull it out in the morning, put in a magazine and it will work," Perez said.

Rudra Chai Siphra
Friday, August 29th, 2003, 04:27 AM
Not surprised in the least!




U.S. Troops Use Confiscated Iraqi AK-47s
Sun Aug 24, 2:15 PM ET

By ANDREW ENGLAND, Associated Press Writer

BAQOUBA, Iraq - An American soldier stands at the side of an Iraqi highway, puts his AK-47 on fully automatic and pulls the trigger.

Within seconds the assault rifle has blasted out 30 rounds. Puffs of dust dance in the air as the bullets smack into the scrubland dirt. Test fire complete.


U.S. troops in Iraq (news - web sites) may not have found weapons of mass destruction, but they're certainly getting their hands on the country's stock of Kalashnikovs — and, they say, they need them.


The soldiers based around Baqouba are from an armor battalion, which means they have tanks, Humvees and armored personnel carriers. But they are short on rifles.


A four-man tank crew is issued two M4 assault rifles and four 9mm pistols, relying mostly on the tank's firepower for protection.


But now they are engaged in guerrilla warfare, patrolling narrow roads and goat trails where tanks are less effective. Troops often find themselves dismounting to patrol in smaller vehicles, making rifles essential.


"We just do not have enough rifles to equip all of our soldiers. So in certain circumstances we allow soldiers to have an AK-47. They have to demonstrate some proficiency with the weapon ... demonstrate an ability to use it," said Lt. Col. Mark Young, commander of the 3rd Battalion, 67th Armor Regiment, 4th Infantry Division.


"Normally an armor battalion is fighting from its tanks. Well, we are not fighting from our tanks right now," Young said. "We are certainly capable of performing the missions that we have been assigned, there's no issue with that, but we do find ourselves somewhat challenged."


In Humvees, on tanks — but never openly on base — U.S. soldiers are carrying the Cold War-era weapon, first developed in the Soviet Union but now mass produced around the world.


The AK is favored by many of the world's fighters, from child soldiers in Africa to rebel movements around the world, because it is light, durable and known to jam less frequently.


Now U.S. troops who have picked up AKs on raids or confiscated them at checkpoints are putting the rifles to use — and they like what they see.


Some complain that standard U.S. military M16 and M4 rifles jam too easily in Iraq's dusty environment. Many say the AK has better "knockdown" power and can kill with fewer shots.


"The kind of war we are in now ... you want to be able to stop the enemy quick," said Sgt. 1st Class Tracy S. McCarson of Newport News, Va., an army scout, who carries an AK in his Humvee.


Some troops say the AK is easier to maintain and a better close-quarters weapon. Also, it has "some psychological affect on the enemy when you fire back on them with their own weapons," McCarson said.


Most U.S. soldiers agree the M16 and the M4 — a newer, shorter version of the M16 that has been used by American troops since the 1960s — is better for long distance, precision shooting.


But around Baqouba, troops are finding themselves attacked by assailants hidden deep in date palm groves. Or they are raiding houses, taking on enemies at close-quarters.


Two weeks ago, Sgt. Sam Bailey of Cedar Falls, Iowa, was in a Humvee when a patrol came under rocket-propelled grenade and heavy machine gun fire. It was dark, the road narrow. On one side, there was a mud wall and palms trees, on the other a canal surrounded by tall grass.





Bailey, who couldn't see who was firing, had an AK-47 on his lap and his M4 up front. The choice was simple.

"I put the AK on auto and started spraying," Bailey said.

Some soldiers also say it's easier to get ammo for the AK — they can pick it up on any raid or from any confiscated weapon.

"It's plentiful," said Sgt. Eric Harmon, a tanker who has a full 75-round drum, five 30-round magazines, plus 200-300 rounds in boxes for his AK. He has about 120 rounds for his M16.

Young doesn't carry an AK but has fired one. He's considered banning his troops from carrying AKs, but hasn't yet because "if I take the AK away from some of the soldiers, then they will not have a rifle to carry with them."

Staff Sgt. Michael Perez, a tanker, said he would take anything over his standard issue 9mm pistol when he's out of his tank.

And the AK's durability has impressed him.

"They say you can probably drop this in the water and leave it overnight, pull it out in the morning, put in a magazine and it will work," Perez said.

Ewergrin
Friday, August 29th, 2003, 04:46 AM
I am not suprised, either. Though the M16 is a wonderful weapon, the AK is simply more trustworthy and reliable. The US would never adopt it because of it's stubborness and reluctance to use a "commie" weapon. Nevermind the fact that it is mechanically more superior, and basically dummy proof (the latter being absolutely necessary, which is the entire reasont he AK was invented by Mr. Kalashnikov in the first place.. it HAD to be dummy proof and require no tools for field stripping so that the Russian soldiers could properly maintain their weapon). The debate about ammunition, in my opinion is pointless because it is a matter of opinion. The 7.62x39 is a bigger round, yes, and had more of a punch upon impact, but in reality it is still what is called an "intermediate" round and originally only used by the Russians to begin with.
I do believe that the AKs the Soviet military uses now shoot 5.45x39, which is a round much more similar to the .223 round used by the M16/AR15. Either one is going to kill you, it's simply a matter of the manner in which they will kill you.

Ewergrin
Friday, August 29th, 2003, 04:48 AM
Also, as an American tax payer, Im all for the US military using the spols of war against our enemies, and hopefully staying out of my pocket book a little bit while they do it.

Rudra Chai Siphra
Friday, August 29th, 2003, 06:09 AM
Exactly , I once met a guy who claimed he was a gun runner.. ( I dont believe him for one second. ) He swore up and down that AK's were inferior to the 16.... Anyway thats my 2cents ...

AK-74 ( best rise compensator on the market)
Lower calibur
But made of stamped steel instead of machined ( the down fall) ...

Phlegethon
Friday, August 29th, 2003, 12:41 PM
The 7.62x39 is a bigger round, yes, and had more of a punch upon impact, but in reality it is still what is called an "intermediate" round and originally only used by the Russians to begin with.
I do believe that the AKs the Soviet military uses now shoot 5.45x39, which is a round much more similar to the .223 round used by the M16/AR15. Either one is going to kill you, it's simply a matter of the manner in which they will kill you.

The AK-74, the official weapon of the former Warsaw Pact regular armies, is 5.45x39. Except in central Africa and the Middle East no regular army uses the AK-47 anymore.

The AK-101 is 5,56x45 (NATO caliber), AK-103 is 7,62x39, AK-105 is 5,45x39. Personally, I loved the AK-74. Too bad we gave them away (tens of thousands of brand new assault rifles) for free to Turkey.

Stríbog
Friday, August 29th, 2003, 05:16 PM
The AK-74, the official weapon of the former Warsaw Pact regular armies, is 5.45x39. Except in central Africa and the Middle East no regular army uses the AK-47 anymore.

The AK-101 is 5,56x45 (NATO caliber), AK-103 is 7,62x39, AK-105 is 5,45x39. Personally, I loved the AK-74. Too bad we gave them away (tens of thousands of brand new assault rifles) for free to Turkey.

I'm considering getting a SAR-2/AK-74 to complement the SAR-1/AK-47 I have. Any comments/input? I've heard that SAR-2s are rapidly selling out in the US so I might want to get one soon....

Ewergrin
Friday, August 29th, 2003, 11:41 PM
I'm considering getting a SAR-2/AK-74 to complement the SAR-1/AK-47 I have. Any comments/input? I've heard that SAR-2s are rapidly selling out in the US so I might want to get one soon....



If you really want an SAR2, you had better get one FAST because basically AIM Surplus bought out the LAST of the SAR2 rifles that CIA shipped into the country. Unless you find one at a gun show, and are willing to pay the very high price that they will be selling for, than AIM Surplus is your best bet. They are the only ones who have them now and they are about to be depleted. After that, no more new Romanian SAR series will be entering the country.

I have already ordered mine. But once you get the SAR2, in order to really make it an AK74 clone, you need to install the 74 brake on it, as well as a FIXED side folding buttstock. You can buy the non fixed stocks from anywehere, but make sure that you pin or weld it into the open position in order to be US compliant.

Stríbog
Saturday, August 30th, 2003, 12:04 AM
If you really want an SAR2, you had better get one FAST because basically AIM Surplus bought out the LAST of the SAR2 rifles that CIA shipped into the country. Unless you find one at a gun show, and are willing to pay the very high price that they will be selling for, than AIM Surplus is your best bet. They are the only ones who have them now and they are about to be depleted. After that, no more new Romanian SAR series will be entering the country.

I have already ordered mine. But once you get the SAR2, in order to really make it an AK74 clone, you need to install the 74 brake on it, as well as a FIXED side folding buttstock. You can buy the non fixed stocks from anywehere, but make sure that you pin or weld it into the open position in order to be US compliant.

Hmm at this point I'm considering waiting and getting a ROMAK package with a scope instead. I have to wait till Monday when AIMsurplus reopens to make the call, so I've got a little time to think. All I know is that I don't want to get stuck with an SKS or Mosin. :P

Ewergrin
Saturday, August 30th, 2003, 12:09 AM
Hmm at this point I'm considering waiting and getting a ROMAK package with a scope instead. I have to wait till Monday when AIMsurplus reopens to make the call, so I've got a little time to think. All I know is that I don't want to get stuck with an SKS or Mosin. :P

I love my SKS's and my Mosins.

I would opt for the SAR2 though, considering its extremely limited availability. The ROMAKS will still be around.

Ewergrin
Saturday, August 30th, 2003, 12:12 AM
Interesting side note...

The price inflation ont he Romanian SAR series rifles has already started to skyrise...
A local shop here has a laminated SAR1 for $480!!!!!?!?!?!?!?!??!?!?!?!?

Evolved
Monday, December 8th, 2003, 05:37 AM
One of the reasons my boyfriend wants to move to America is so he can own guns, Hungary's socialist government is making the laws more and more strict. You can buy used/crappy Romanian AKs on the black market there for $100, though.

Here you go http://www.forums.skadi.net/images/icons/icon10.gif

http://www.gunchicks.com/rchicks/jenn-olivia/8jenn-olivia.jpg

Ewergrin
Monday, December 8th, 2003, 11:47 AM
One of the reasons my boyfriend wants to move to America is so he can own guns, Hungary's socialist government is making the laws more and more strict. You can buy used/crappy Romanian AKs on the black market there for $100, though.

Here you go http://www.forums.skadi.net/images/icons/icon10.gif

http://www.gunchicks.com/rchicks/jenn-olivia/8jenn-olivia.jpg



Romanians, both of them. (Not the women.)

Evolved
Tuesday, December 9th, 2003, 11:13 AM
Romanians, both of them. (Not the women.)

If the women were Romanian I'd imagine we'd be seeing more bodyhair. HEHEHEHEHEhttp://www.forums.skadi.net/images/icons/icon10.gif

Gladstone
Tuesday, December 9th, 2003, 07:45 PM
I am a bit surprised they had not worked out the M-16's jamming problems during Vietnam. As for the AK-47, like a lot of things it appears that ever so creative bunch the reds merely copied or stole it from someone else.

http://websearch.cs.com/cs/boomframe.jsp?query=German+mp44+assault+ rifle&page=1&offset=0&result_url=redir%3Fsrc%3Dwebsearch%26amp %3BrequestId%3D652c21c79dd2bbe2%26amp%3B clickedItemRank%3D4%26amp%3BuserQuery%3D German%2Bmp44%2Bassault%2Brifle%26amp%3B clickedItemURN%3Dhttp%253A%252F%252Fwww. onwar.com%252Farticles%252F0211.htm%26am p%3BinvocationType%3D-%26amp%3BfromPage%3DCSroll&remove_url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.onwar.com%2F articles%2F0211.htm

The photos below are both of the German MP-44 assault rifle which came out several years before the Soviet AK "magically" appeared in 1947.

Ewergrin
Wednesday, December 10th, 2003, 12:37 AM
I am a bit surprised they had not worked out the M-16's jamming problems during Vietnam. As for the AK-47, like a lot of things it appears that ever so creative bunch the reds merely copied or stole it from someone else.

http://websearch.cs.com/cs/boomframe.jsp?query=German+mp44+assault+ rifle&page=1&offset=0&result_url=redir%3Fsrc%3Dwebsearch%26amp %3BrequestId%3D652c21c79dd2bbe2%26amp%3B clickedItemRank%3D4%26amp%3BuserQuery%3D German%2Bmp44%2Bassault%2Brifle%26amp%3B clickedItemURN%3Dhttp%253A%252F%252Fwww. onwar.com%252Farticles%252F0211.htm%26am p%3BinvocationType%3D-%26amp%3BfromPage%3DCSroll&remove_url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.onwar.com%2F articles%2F0211.htm

The photos below are both of the German MP-44 assault rifle which came out several years before the Soviet AK "magically" appeared in 1947.


The similarities between the Stg 44 and the AK-47 stop at the appearances. They look similar however, mechanically are very different. The StG 44 was not used very much in WW2 (the MP40 was more than adequate.) The gas operation systemof the AK-47 is to this day unmatched. Actually, Kalashnikov type weapons have always been superior in terms of reliability and efficiency.

As far as the M16 is concerned. It is a great weapon. And the problems that it had during its infancy (wrong type of powder used in the .223 round caused the receiver to get fouled and jam) have been solved as well. Actually, from what I hear from my contact ont he inside, they are about to scrap the M16 (A3 and even A4 tops) in favor of something altogether completely different.

Gladstone
Wednesday, December 10th, 2003, 02:42 AM
The similarities between the Stg 44 and the AK-47 stop at the appearances. They look similar however, mechanically are very different.

While I have to think Kalishnikov was influenced in his designing of the AK-47 in some way by the Stg 44 (if only even simply the idea of the "assault rifle" as the Russians had been on the receiving end of the Stg 44 which it is said greatly increased the firepower of the German infantryman thus equipped); I have found upon a bit further reading that yes, the AK is it's own system internally. Thanks for the correction.

Its good to hear they finely got those bugs worked out of the M-16. As for a new assault rifle, if it is indeed an assault rifle, it ought to be interesting what they come up with.

For those that might be interested in a bit further reading about the Stg 44 this is a better link than the one initially posted

http://websearch.cs.com/cs/boomframe.jsp?query=German+Stg+44&page=1&offset=0&result_url=redir%3Fsrc%3Dwebsearch%26amp %3BrequestId%3D3413d31899eec493%26amp%3B clickedItemRank%3D4%26amp%3BuserQuery%3D German%2BStg%2B44%26amp%3BclickedItemURN %3Dhttp%253A%252F%252Fwww.geocities.com% 252Fpentagon%252F2833%252Fheer%252Finfan try%252Fmp43stg44%252Fmp43stg44.html%26a mp%3BinvocationType%3D-%26amp%3BfromPage%3DCSroll&remove_url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.geocities.co m%2Fpentagon%2F2833%2Fheer%2Finfantry%2F mp43stg44%2Fmp43stg44.html

The pictures below are of Field Marsahll Kesselring test firing an early model of the Stg 44 (an MP-43). The other photo is of a German infantryman with the Stg 44.

Gladstone
Wednesday, December 10th, 2003, 06:29 PM
Did I catch that right about the CIA shipping guns into America? Sounds interesting, what's the story?