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herr georg
Sunday, September 25th, 2005, 11:48 AM
I am wandering what is the typical German phenotype. By German, I mean strictly the German nationality, not german in the broader sense, which would include many different nationalities.

I just mean the people who belong to the modern nation of Germany.
I am aware that there is a north and a south, and the people from both areas look different. But if anyone has an idea of a common german type not particulary bavarian or northern, applicable to both and to all of germany, please share.

South Germans from my experience, which is mostly looking at pictures and that, are relatively short, round faced, with dark hair and eyes, and a medium complexion, not neccessarily tanned or olive and not particulary pale or fair. Kind of like hitler really. Also with the occasional pale white skin colour similar to the irish, in bavaria and austria. Heinrich himmler would be an example (damn nazis :P)

North Germans, which would also include dutch as well I guess, are usually taller, long headed, with light hair and eyes, and with fair skin, flushed and ruddy, blond ivory coloured skin.

Of course being no expert I don't know if this is right. The second one is a stereotype I guess, the Hollywood depiction of Germans in movies like the power of one, and how the dutch people I've seen looked.

I studied German and the people in the text books looked really quite ugly (Germans are meant to have a reputation I've noticed ;)) with mousey hair, brown eyes and olivey skin, and unique facial features unusual for other North Europeans like the british, sort of nasal and mouth area almost rodent like. Really not the nicest people to look at. Kind of makes you think its not so silly after all to call Germans 'wogs' , and definitely not what most people think Germans look like, which is Hitler's kind of ideal.

Thusnelda
Sunday, September 25th, 2005, 12:11 PM
There is simply no typical german phenotype/look besides stereotypes.
The difference between the north and the south is not as big as it sounds in your posting. There are many tall, blond haired bavarians, and there are also many more small, dark haired north-germans. But overall, I agree with you that in Southern Germany the Alpinid and Borreby-features dominates while in Nothern Germany the Nordid/Faelid/..-features dominates.
When you go trough Germany, you cant tell from the looks of a person if he or she is from the North or from the South, from the East or from the West. (An other case would be if one wears regional clothings/Trachten or speaks in a regional dialect)
Maybe you can differ the persons trough their behaviour and character: Nothern germans are overall more silent, cooled-down and not soooo outgoing, while Southern germans (especially Bavarians) are more emotional, talk-active, outgoing and sometimes funnier. ;)

OPEL
Sunday, September 25th, 2005, 12:13 PM
germans look like germans only anther german can tell a german just like a can tell if he or she is serbian, from wat iv seen there german women are nice good child bareing women and the men are not ugly, and none of them look english or british. germans are good the ture germans not the suck up to usa EU germans.

Huzar
Sunday, September 25th, 2005, 12:45 PM
I am wandering what is the typical german phenotype.
By german, I mean strictly the german nationality, not german in the broader sense, which would include many different nationalities.
I just mean the people who belong to the modern nation of germany.
I am aware that there is a north and a south, and the people from both areas
look different. But if anyone has an idea of a common german type not particulary bavarian or northern, applicable to both and to all of germany, please share.
South germans from my experience, which is mostly looking at pictures and that,
are relatively short, round faced, with dark hair and eyes, and a medium complexion, not neccessarily tanned or olive and not particulary pale or fair. Kind of like hitler really. Also with the occasional pale white skin colour similar to the irish, in bavaria and austria. Heinrich himmler would be an example (damn nazis :P)

North Germans, which would also include dutch as well I guess,
are usually taller, long headed, with light hair and eyes,
and with fair skin, flushed and ruddy, blond ivory coloured skin.

.


Germany/Austria has a very large population, so you can observe many different types between them. Yes, in general your description is a sinthesis of any Anthropologic text ; central-North germans are predominantly nordid with cromagnid influence, while southern germans are in majority Dinarids and Alpinids, with cromagnid influence too.

However, what Valkyrie said, is right : there are other factors which characterize a population (way of life, customs, dialect etc.)


Of course, if we speak of Germany/Austria, an interrogative could rise : are the dissimilarities of character (between north and south) caused, in some way, by the different sub-racial composition ? I don't know this honestly. Perhaps Agrippa (our best Anthropology teacher :P ) could explain better the thing............

herr georg
Sunday, September 25th, 2005, 02:21 PM
Thanks for the link to those pictures,
they depict the german ethnicity well: lots of rather odd looking people, alot of them with dark hair and swarthy skin (this is obviously the medish element, which shouldn't come as a suprise since germany is central european), then the very fair ones here and there, the germanic element.
Also, look at the second picture in the Niedersachsen/Saxony photos, on the bottom row, the third person the right,
is a good example of the occassional person with a likeness to the 'irish' look.

and this
http://img145.exs.cx/my.php?loc=img145&image=klassenfoto2tg.jpg

the woman on the second row, second from the left,
east baltid?

Agrippa
Sunday, September 25th, 2005, 04:49 PM
The typical-average German would be a generalised Nordid with strong Alpinoid admixture in my opinion.

Huzar
Sunday, September 25th, 2005, 06:20 PM
The typical-average German would be a generalised Nordid with strong Alpinoid admixture in my opinion.


I'd add a determinant (numerically) Dinarid component in southGermany-Austria

Skåne
Sunday, September 25th, 2005, 06:39 PM
Rudolf Hess looks like a stereotypical german IMO.

http://images.google.se/images?svnum=10&hl=sv&lr=&client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla%3Asv-SE%3Aofficial_s&q=%22Rudolf+hess%22&btnG=S%C3%B6k

Also these two guys, the guys to the left and right; especially the guy to the left. ;)

http://us.ent4.yimg.com/movies.yahoo.com/images/hv/photo/movie_pix/paramount_pictures/raiders_of_the_lost_ark/_group_photos/paul_freeman2.jpg

GreenHeart
Tuesday, September 27th, 2005, 02:28 AM
Actually the north Germans are not generally long headed. They are either brachy-or mesocephalic. But they typically have light to golden blond hair and have a high proportion of freckles compared to other countries (which still isnt much) the iris color tends to be pale blue or grey and square to oval facial shape, they tend to be tall and thin, the men being much taller than the women who are usually around 5'7". In general I'd classify them to be mainly Phalisch, but this easily blends in with the nordic and borreby types too.

Glenlivet
Tuesday, September 27th, 2005, 02:53 AM
Falid is (stereo-) typical, in my opinion. They are probably not in majority though. NW Germans are on average sub-brachycephalic or high mesocephalic. Most Dutch are about the same. I have noticed that golden blondism is much more common than in Sweden, but parts of southern (and interior) Norway and Denmark have more strawberry blondes, with few striking dark red hair though, as is found in the "Celtic" (probably rather pre-Celtic) regions of the British Isles.

Rolf Nordenstreng believed Germans (and Germans in Austria) have absorbed non-Germanic racial elements, even though these are nowadays culturally Germanic.

herr georg, many NW Germans (and northern Dutchmen) are indistinguishable from some populations in eastern England. But the rest of Britain (maybe except parts of Scotland) is hardly more northern european in race, than northern Germany. The population of England is by and large nowhere as light as northern Germany and nowhere as dark as southern France or northern Italy. In this respect it take an intermediate position between Germany and France (Gustav Kraitschek).

GreenHeart
Tuesday, September 27th, 2005, 03:24 AM
Falid is (stereo-) typical, in my opinion. They are probably not in majority though. NW Germans are on average sub-brachycephalic or high mesocephalic. Most Dutch are about the same. I have noticed that golden blondism is much more common than in Sweden, but parts of southern (and interior) Norway and Denmark have more strawberry blondes, with few striking dark red hair though, as is found in the "Celtic" (probably rather pre-Celtic) regions of the British Isles.

Rolf Nordenstreng believed Germans (and Germans in Austria) have absorbed non-Germanic racial elements, even though these are nowadays culturally Germanic.

herr georg, many NW Germans (and northern Dutchmen) are indistinguishable from some populations in eastern England. But the rest of Britain (maybe except parts of Scotland) is hardly more northern european in race, than northern Germany. The population of England is by and large nowhere as light as northern Germany and nowhere as dark as southern France or northern Italy. In this respect it take an intermediate position between Germany and France (Gustav Kraitschek).

I can assure you that where I am, Phalish is the majority, it's the most common type here.

Glenlivet
Tuesday, September 27th, 2005, 03:40 AM
The type supposedly predominates in northern Germany west of the river Elbe.


I can assure you that where I am, Phalish is the majority, it's the most common type here.

Edwin
Tuesday, September 27th, 2005, 04:56 AM
The type described by Tacitus was surely Falian, and likely included Borreby.

Agrippa
Tuesday, September 27th, 2005, 01:25 PM
In generalised Nordid I included some Cromagnid/Dalofaelid elements, however, Dalofaelid is insofar typical as it is strongest in NW Germany, stronger than in most other European regions, but still its for the whole population not as dominant as Nordid or Alpinoid.

Edwin
Tuesday, September 27th, 2005, 02:44 PM
The populations movements and dynamics since Roman times seem to make the NW German the only one unchanged, and therefore the typical German over time. It seems that the Falian and Anglo-Saxon are the West Germanic core types.

QuietWind
Tuesday, September 27th, 2005, 06:59 PM
The typical-average German would be a generalised Nordid with strong Alpinoid admixture in my opinion.

Do you think it is possible that this type of mix could often be mistaken for Faelid by the casual observer and this could be what some are observing when they mention seeing a Faelid majority?

Agrippa
Tuesday, September 27th, 2005, 07:01 PM
Do you think it is possible that this type of mix could often be mistaken for Faelid by the casual observer and this could be what some are observing when they mention seeing a Faelid majority?

Yes, especially if both the standard Nordid and Alpinoid element is more robust, not as reduced, what many German Alpinoids aren't, it can produce that kind of "Falian" some mean by referring to Nordid mixed with Borreby/Alpinoid. Especially in Bavaria and Upper Austria f.e., a region in which real Dalofaelids and such mixtures live side by side its almost impossible to distinguish them sometimes, especially if another elements comes in too (like Dinarid). Its partly almost like a revertive breeding, bringing "somewhat" reduced-brachycephalised robust Alpinoids back to a more Cromagnoid condition.

herr georg
Wednesday, September 28th, 2005, 10:47 AM
Does anyone have the words of tacticus,
describing the germans?

GreenHeart
Thursday, September 29th, 2005, 12:40 AM
Do you think it is possible that this type of mix could often be mistaken for Faelid by the casual observer and this could be what some are observing when they mention seeing a Faelid majority?

No, because the Phalians here have a very square face/jawline and are rather tall, fair and sometimes freckled. Alpines are none of these things.

The Faelish people here come from a stabilized blend of Borreby(UP) element and Nordic.

GreenHeart
Thursday, September 29th, 2005, 12:48 AM
The type supposedly predominates in northern Germany west of the river Elbe.

Yes, I'm in Schleswig-Holstein. It's the closest to Denmark and the Nordsee (North Sea) and the Baltic Sea.

Glenlivet
Thursday, September 29th, 2005, 12:59 AM
That is probably the most Nordid region of Germany. It is even more Nordid than Jutland.

http://forums.skadi.net/showthread.php?t=39479


Yes, I'm in Schleswig-Holstein. It's the closest to Denmark and the Nordsee (North Sea) and the Baltic Sea.

RedJack
Thursday, September 29th, 2005, 01:08 AM
Does anyone have the words of tacticus,
describing the germans?

"Physical Characteristics. For my own part, I agree with those who think that the tribes of Germany are free from all taint of intermarriages with foreign nations, and that they appear as a distinct, unmixed race, like none but themselves. Hence, too, the same physical peculiarities throughout so vast a population. All have fierce blue eyes, red hair, huge frames, fit only for a sudden exertion. They are less able to bear laborious work. Heat and thirst they cannot in the least endure; to cold and hunger their climate and their soil inure them."

http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/source/tacitus1.html

Glenlivet
Thursday, September 29th, 2005, 02:01 AM
There was more red hair among Jews in Germany than Germans. (Julian Huxley, A. C. Haddon, We Europeans, 1936)

Tacitus would have been wrong on modern NW Germans, unless he meant strawberry/ginger blonde (e.g. Robert Redford's hair colour).

Agrippa
Thursday, September 29th, 2005, 02:15 AM
Didnt some tribes color their hair too? Thought so...

GreenHeart
Thursday, September 29th, 2005, 04:25 AM
I have barely seen any Germans at all with naturally red hair, but they do enjoy dying it red so it stands to reason their ancestors might have too. Either that or the translation of Tacitus is wrong.

Personally I always thought it to mean golden, and apparently the Romans used the same word for red and golden hair colors, according to once source. Modern Germans typically have golden hair, so it makes more sense that their ancestors did too. :yohan

People from India often use a plant based dye called Henna to make their hair be softer and have a reddish tint. I'm sure this practice must have come from the invading aryans, and surely the germanic portion of them used henna too.

Edwin
Thursday, September 29th, 2005, 05:23 AM
The Celts, not the Germans, are the ones accused of bleaching and/or dying their hair in the sources, and were even forced to by the Romans in at least one instance in order that they might be made to look like German captives, apparently much harder to come by.

Tacitus is not the only one to describe the Germans as red-haired, or imply it, but we should assume that anywhere from golden blond to Scottish deep red to auburn is meant. And selection trends change, meaning that the Falians of the time might have boasted much more of it, like we see now in Scotland.

"Red-haired" Jews often have the "carrot" hair, which only some see as red. It is found in non-Jewish populations in Europe, but is not associated with the purer Cro-Magnid types, whose is in the above range from golden to deep red to auburn. Carrot-headedness seems to be associated with spindly pseudo-Dinarid types, perhaps Bell Beaker, and one may assume with some Armenids as well.

herr georg
Thursday, September 29th, 2005, 04:04 PM
Tacticus' description is interesting. Red hair is not meant to be common in Germany (I haven't seen a single case) today. As far as I know, germany isn't all that cold and bitter. Heat and thrist they cannot take....well today's germans are meant to be sun-loving. And fierce blue eyes, its almost as if tacticus specifically chose the nordic germans over the medish alpine ones to describe. Sounds like an accurate description of the scottish or irish to me.

Glenlivet
Thursday, September 29th, 2005, 06:15 PM
I think you exaggerate. Scottish Nordids tend to be leaner, but some Scottish people look very Mediterranid, whereas such Germans are very rare.


Sounds like an accurate description of the scottish or irish to me.

Huzar
Thursday, September 29th, 2005, 08:05 PM
Ok, now i'd like to know from Agrippa how Germany/Austria changed its general "look"/phenotype, during the centuries. I mean, which was the (hypothetical) phenotypical appearence ,and its probable variations, of germanic populations in crucial moments like "roman Empire age", "medieval age" ,"renaissance", and more recent ages ? Which was the most crucial period for the german subracial formation ?

Recently i've read on Dodona a thread on the possible changes of Germany phenotype in the last 50/60 years, but i'd like to know more.

I realize it's a difficult and complex question, Ag ; We can only hypotize many things, probably. I ask this to you because you're german and you're the most expert here (especially about germanic your countries, of course). I realize the answer can be long too. Anyway, thank you in advance. :)

Agrippa
Thursday, September 29th, 2005, 08:47 PM
In fact I wrote my opinion down on Dodona and here and elsewhere, even more then once and I dont have the time at the moment.

But what I might say is, that the early Reihengraeber-type and modern Southern Germans are obviously not the same, some regions were from the beginning just Germanised, others get Dinarised and Alpinised over time, in most we have now a mixture. But generally speaking, the Nordid element is still very well preserved in many areas and present at least in the mixture virtually everywhere.
Exact percentages are hard to make, but whats for sure is that in Southern Germany because of various reasons the Nordid component de- and the Alpinid increased.

but of course, if the Southern Germans would be now as Nordid as the early Reihengraeber-type, oh well, they would be more Nordid than today Sweden most likely. Alone this comparison makes clear what was the starting point, though again, other elements were present, just not included in the winning early Germanic population, they came in later mostly and had simply higher stable reproductive rates. Today Nordid is quite strong, just not as strong as it was.

Some comments from Dodona, some repeated from older Skadi-threads:

Long Bones Growth Variations


JANUSZ PIONTEK1, BLANDYNA JERSZYÑSKA1, SERGIY SEGEDA2
1 Adam Mickiewicz University, Institute of Anthropology, Poznañ, Poland
2 Ukrainian Academy of Science, Institute of Archaeology, Kiev, Ukraine
LONG BONES GROWTH VARIATION
AMONG PREHISTORIC AGRICULTURAL
AND PASTORAL POPULATIONS
FROM UKRAINE (BRONZE ERA TO IRON AGE)
PIONTEK J., JERSZYÑSKA B., SEGEDA S. 2001.
Abstract: The authors attempted to determine the tendencies in the development of long
bones (femur and tibia) in the Bronze Era and Iron Age agricultural and pastoral populations
(differing with adaptive strategies used) from Ukraine. A total of 79 skeletons of individuals
who had died at the age of 1 to 13 years were examined. This number included 55 skeletons
from the Bronze Era (15 individuals from the population of farmers, and 40 individuals from
the population of herders) and 24 skeletons from the Iron Age (12 farmers and 12 herders).
The results of the research indicate that subadults in pastoral populations were taller than
subadults in agricultural populations. This could have resulted in their greater body height
in adulthood as well as in different body proportions (herders had relatively long tibia and
higher stature, while farmers had relatively short tibia and smaller body height).
Which points to the essential influence of socioeconomic structures, subsistence pattern and selection for body proportions and reproductive tendencies, a basic difference between mobile groups, especially herder-warriors, but farmer-warriors and warlike hunter gatherers in areas of high group selection as well, and sedentary farmers living under poor conditions, with the former more K-, the later more r-selected.
In individuals I know that you can see malnutrition and diseases in the long bones best (Harris lines), therefore influence by nutrition might be possible.
Better nutrition makes people taller and gives them longer legs in general, although the difference seems just too big for that time and region between agrarians and herders.
In population its another question.
Because if its about selection there are examples of cold-related shorteing of the legs (Lappids, Eskimids, Tungids and Mongolids in general).
But of course, I think its in that case (Southern Russia, Ukraine) more related to what I stated: The antagonism of herder-warrior and farmer subsistence. The advantage of higher fertility rates in settled economies with poor nutrition and many diseases - more children are dying but some will survive can play a role as the authors stated too.
So far I dont favouring the concept of r-/K selection if its about farmers/herders although I think it played a secondary role, but I keep it in mind and this article gave me new material.

Ontogenetic influences of diet can be at least partly responsible too, but there are many things which speak against this explanation only.
First the bones are even more robust in most aspects too, secondly, the difference seems to extreme especially if its about proportions which are less affected by diet only and last but not least, the same groups had definitely K- and r-selection as the herders had significantly less children, for which they cared more, whereas the farmers had more children, for which they cared less and which lived in poorer conditions. They might have used methods to prevent pregnacy and/or selection/infanticide, the result is clear.

If we still assume, that this is just an environmental result, I do not know definitely, as they dont mention differences in pathology because of serious malnutrition (Harris lines etc.), this is still a great argument for the long time selection of "cheap" and "saving", very frugal types which can stand hunger and plagues better, getting earlier mature, earlier and more children. The sedentary farmer type saved the fully adult versatile body for energy saving and earlier and more children.

Furthermore there are various examples of (original) herders being more leptomorphic, taller and having longer legs than farmers of the same region because of selective processes:
F.e. Tutsis vs. Hutu
Massai vs. Kamba
Pathans vs. Tajiks
Bedus vs. city "Arabs"
Dinarid Balkan herders vs. Danube plain farmers
etc.

Brachymorphic, reduced types are better adapted to a frugal environment:

'Various hypotheses have been suggested to explain the temporal trends in head shape. It may be due to natural selection (Henneberg et al., 1978). Bielicki and Welon (1964) showed that long-headed individuals have lower life expectancy than others, while Olivier (1979) suggested dolichocephalic is more susceptible to death from tuberculosis, plague, and small pox.'

American Journal of Human Biology
Volume 13, Issue 5 , Pages 626 - 634

Its true that progressive leptomorphics have certain problems to live in a mass society with not enough hygiene, many diseases and bad conditions of living. They are made to survive by thinking and acting bold and changing the environment, not for living in dirt and hunger. In dirt and hunger reduced, fat, short legged-brachycephalised and frugal-compliant types have better chances - especially because they are less risk taking too (not as often soldiers, mercenaries, pioneers etc.) and get earlier and more children on average.

Its true that leptomorphics are more sensible if its about diseases like Tuberculosis. You are right. Unter healthy conditions Europid leptomorphics live longer and are less prone towards civilisatory diseases.

Whats really important is to distinguish balanced from imbalanced Neoteny! Because balanced keeping of Neotenic features was always an important factor of human evolution. The difference is if the whole body type and personality is affected too and we see no better brain development at the same time, even on the contrary, a reduction of the brain volume as well (f.e. from Mesolithicum to medieval farmers in Central Europe). That are the results of self domestication, negative selection and poor living conditions which lead, similar to Homo floriensis though not comparable if its about the grade of course, to degeneration.

It depends on the region in question, you see the infantilisation in Southward expanding Mongoloid rice farmers, in Central European farmers beginning already in the lake dwelling culture, with a first height in Roman times, going back again during the time of the Barbarian invasion with again more mobile-active lifestyle (whats better if its about health too oftentimes, because sedentary life was a hygienic problem before modernity) and an extreme height in the medieval age f.e. in Bavaria and Bohemia with extreme brachycephalisation and partly infantilisation (Alpinisation in France, Bavaria and Bohemia mostly from 11th-17th century f.e.). This trend was going on in modern times.
In the Slavic area the Lappoid elements were first mostly absorbed but came into the genpool and spread on a very low level. When sedentary poor farmer life style became dominant in certain regions Baltisation took place which produced something intermediary between generalised Nordics (Eastnordid and Eastcromagnid) and Lappoids = Eastbaltid. This happened in many regions it began about 12-13th century, in some others a little bit earlier, in many later. In the thread about the losses of the WW's I posted some links to Skadi threads in which more infos are included and some pictures as well (f.e. of Neolithic skulls, brachycranisation graph, leptomorphics in Central Europe mostly Nordid - face morph, Keltic skulls of elite warriors from cairns etc...
Its quite typical that you find in all of Europe mostly skull types of the same robust meso-dolichocaphalic kind in the elite cairns.




Lets hear what Shakespeare said as Caesar about the intelligent and extreme schizothymes:

Cæsar. Let me have men about me that are fat,
Sleek-headed men, and such as sleep a-nights:
Yon Cassius has a lean and hungry look,
He thinks too much; such men are dangerous.
Antony. Fear him not, Cæsar, he's not dangerous:
He is a noble Roman, and well given.
Cæsar. Would he were fatter; but I fear him not:
Yet if my name were liable to fear,
I do not know the man I should avoid
So soon as that spare Cassius. He reads much;
He is a great observer; and he looks
Quite through the deeds of men. He loves no plays,
As thou dost, Antony; he hears no music:
Seldom he smiles, and smiles in such a sort,
As if he mock'd himself, and scorn'd his spirit,
That could be mov'd to smile at any thing.
Such men as he be never at heart's ease,
Whilst they behold a greater than themselves;
And therefore are they very dangerous.
I rather tell thee what is to be fear'd
Than what I fear; for always I am Cæsar.
Come on my right hand, for this ear is deaf,
And tell me truly what thou think'st of him."
http://absoluteshakespeare.com/guides/caesar/characters/caesar_characters_essay.htm
A schizothyme might even risk his life for an ideal, his heart can be set in fire by ideas and if he is balanced and intelligent, he looks through most other humans as if they are out of glass. With the exception of his own kind obviously...
If they are educated proper and get the right informations, they will take the right measures and make the right decisions without being too much influenced by emotions, nor will they lose their path.
Thats something you can't await from a zyklothyme. Zyklothyme men and hypomanic organisers can be very useful, but only UNDER a balanced schizothyme man.
So, without speaking about more specific progressive tendencies, we could say that the progressive potential of a group is determined by the pool of intelligent, schizothyme and sinewy Leptosomic build male individuals. They are the backbone, you can lose viscoes Athletics, or zyklothyme Pyknics, or hyperaesthetic extreme Leptosomics (Asthenic), but if a group loses them it loses its head.
Progressive racial features are generally more common in populations with higher intelligence, so they are, even without speaking about kin, nor attractiveness too much, an indirect indicator - if combined with a more meso-, leptomorphic build, you can simply assume a high proportion of the necessary elite types for higher development.

RedJack
Friday, September 30th, 2005, 03:07 AM
. Either that or the translation of Tacitus is wrong.

Bingo! I missed that mistake. According to Baker, the word usually translated as red was "rutilus" and was used by the Romans to describe the colour of gold.


almost as if tacticus specifically chose the nordic germans over the medish alpine ones to describe.


Well, he was describing the tribe called Germans which were Nordic. The medish Alpines you are referring to are citizens of the modern nation of Germany, which comprises other tribes and peoples besides the original Germans.
__________________

Hardwig
Friday, September 30th, 2005, 09:11 AM
Here what I think of German phenotypes.Northern Germans:http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/6/64/Hartmann_Portrait_01.jpg
http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/GERkleist.jpg http://www.islandfarm.fsnet.co.uk/Generalfeldmarschall%20Paul%20Ludwig%20E wald%20von%20Kleist/Colour%20Kleist%20WM.jpg Southern Germans:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/0/0a/Rommel_portrait.jpg http://www.generaltiretruck.com/generator/www/de/en/continental/contisoccerworld/themes/03_2006_fifa_world_cup/03_wm_stars/img/matthaeus_jubel_voeller_en;property=orig inal.jpg Among the Northern Germans:The first one is Erich Hartmann,the greatest ace in the Second World War,and in the next two the German Field Marshal Ewald Von Kleist.Southern Germans:General Rommel and in the second Lothar Matthaus and Rudolf Voller German soccer players.Are they good examples of each type?

Hagalaz
Friday, September 30th, 2005, 09:13 AM
How about the typical German Female look? :)
Anyone come to mind?

Sifsvina
Monday, October 3rd, 2005, 06:25 AM
I mean, which was the (hypothetical) phenotypical appearance ,and its probable variations, of germanic populations in crucial moments like "roman Empire age", "medieval age" ,"renaissance", and more recent ages ?

I am not skilled enough to say what actual sub-races they are but there are very very many "realistic" pictures of Germans from the renaissance so it shouldn't be too hard to figure that out. I'd venture a very amateur guess to generally Tronder? Very much the typical north German look that is still common now, maybe a bit less instances of the more Norid look. Oh Gods! Another thing to look for in my German woodcuts (all 1600 of them)! It will only let me post one.
http://tinypic.com/e8625v.jpg

flight
Monday, October 3rd, 2005, 04:07 PM
dutch people come in all hair and eye colors : brown hair, blond hair, black hair, brown eyes, blue eyes, black eyes, green eyes etc.

But most dutch men have brown hair and blue/green eyes. Thats the most common.

Glenlivet
Monday, October 3rd, 2005, 04:11 PM
I have a feeling we have seen you before. What a strange feeling of déjà vu.



But most dutch men have brown hair and blue/green eyes. Thats the most common.

meggabu
Wednesday, February 8th, 2006, 12:26 AM
hi,

http://a.relaunch.focus.de/img/gen/U/B/HBUBAtJaO93_Pxgen_r_210xA.jpg

found in 1900 near hannover.
from the 300/400 century

looks pretty reddish / golden to me

QuietWind
Wednesday, February 8th, 2006, 12:43 AM
hi,

http://a.relaunch.focus.de/img/gen/U/B/HBUBAtJaO93_Pxgen_r_210xA.jpg

found in 1900 near hannover.
from the 300/400 century

looks pretty reddish / golden to me

I'm by far no expert, so maybe someone around here knows what I am about to querie.... but I have read something about hair changing color after death? it was in an explanation for the color of hair in certain mummies or something of that nature. Not that the corpse in your post, meggabu, didn't naturally have that color hair, but if hair does change color then it is possible that it wasn't that color.

Does someone know what I may have read about hair or do I need to try and google it? :)

meggabu
Wednesday, February 8th, 2006, 01:53 AM
You are right, i googled a bit and found some sources which explain that the hair get's reddish after some time in the morass. It could be blond originally.

Swebe
Thursday, February 9th, 2006, 03:59 PM
There are a lot of adventurous estimates concerning the racial situation in Germany so here are some numbers from H. F. K. Günther which are very close to reality IMO.
North-Germany: 55% nordisch (nordid); 15% ostisch (alpinoid); 10% fälisch (phaelid), 10% ostbaltisch (east-baltid); 5% dinarisch (dinarid); 5% other
South-Germany: 40% nordid; 25% alpinoid; 20-25% dinarid; 5% mediteranid; 3-4% east-baltid (East-Germany- 15%); 2-3% phaelid.
Although Günther didn't consider the numerous Sub-racial types, it's a good aid for a better understanding of the racial mixture.
It's so difficult to fix a "typical german look" because even in southern Germany you have to distinguish between different areas or regions. For instance, on the one hand there is the black forest region, which is predominant alpinoid, on the other there is the Neckar region which is probably the most nordic region in south germany and both regions lay in the southwest of Germany and further there are south bavaria which is less nordic than the middle/north etc.. because of that reasons it's more reasonable to talk about the "mixture" than creating a boarder between the nordish north and the unnordish south of Germany.
I also added a map which showes the blonde (blond and blue eyed) and brown in Germany.In the east the blondism could also be a sign for the east-baltic admixture. But it's a research made among schoolchilds so perhaps it differs a bit from the real facts.

OdinThor
Sunday, February 19th, 2006, 10:19 PM
In my opinion:

Deepset eyes.
No flat face.
No receding chin.
A rather big head.

I think the cromagnid influence is quite important in germany.

NatRev
Tuesday, August 16th, 2011, 03:27 PM
I'm 5'11" tall, 'pink complexion' with very light brown hair and light blue-green eyes, as a child up until I was about 6 I was blonde. Body hair is very pale, my arm hair is virtually white / transparent.

Is this typical 'Germanic look'?

Tokle
Friday, July 13th, 2012, 08:16 PM
I'm 5'11" tall, 'pink complexion' with very light brown hair and light blue-green eyes, as a child up until I was about 6 I was blonde. Body hair is very pale, my arm hair is virtually white / transparent.

Is this typical 'Germanic look'?

Interesting you mention blond hair as a child. Why is it some children are born with blond hair (sometimes bleach blond or almost white) and as a child it begins to turn to brown?

ablutive
Friday, July 13th, 2012, 09:00 PM
Interesting you mention blond hair as a child. Why is it some children are born with blond hair (sometimes bleach blond or almost white) and as a child it begins to turn to brown?

I dunno how it started but I can imagine that blondism in children discouraged infanticide when it was a rarer trait because it would give the child a sense of specialness (and so many stories in lots of cultures talk about sacred blond children).

Course now probably most kids are blond at first, or at least half I'd say.

renownedwolf
Friday, July 13th, 2012, 10:37 PM
All Welsh mythology such as the Mabinogion, puts alot of emphasis on beautiful blond female spirits as being guardians of lakes and other sacred places.

Wulfaz
Saturday, July 14th, 2012, 03:51 PM
Interesting you mention blond hair as a child. Why is it some children are born with blond hair (sometimes bleach blond or almost white) and as a child it begins to turn to brown?

The production of melanin use to start with age, that is the reason why the people use to protect the children from the summer sun as they can easier to burn than us. Probably the traditional hyping of the blond hair is come from that the original peleolithic inhabitants were so light pigmented, thus the beauty ideal have been the red and/or blond hair under the thousend years. Side by side the blond hair is more common in East-Europe among the Slavs and Finno-Ugrians as they lived more isolated. The prehistoric and ancient migrants from the Mediterraneum and the Middle-East rather settled in West Europe.

Germaniathane
Friday, February 3rd, 2017, 03:40 PM
I am wandering what is the typical German phenotype. By German, I mean strictly the German nationality, not german in the broader sense, which would include many different nationalities.

I just mean the people who belong to the modern nation of Germany.
I am aware that there is a north and a south, and the people from both areas look different. But if anyone has an idea of a common german type not particulary bavarian or northern, applicable to both and to all of germany, please share.

South Germans from my experience, which is mostly looking at pictures and that, are relatively short, round faced, with dark hair and eyes, and a medium complexion, not neccessarily tanned or olive and not particulary pale or fair. Kind of like hitler really. Also with the occasional pale white skin colour similar to the irish, in bavaria and austria. Heinrich himmler would be an example (damn nazis :P)

North Germans, which would also include dutch as well I guess, are usually taller, long headed, with light hair and eyes, and with fair skin, flushed and ruddy, blond ivory coloured skin.

Of course being no expert I don't know if this is right. The second one is a stereotype I guess, the Hollywood depiction of Germans in movies like the power of one, and how the dutch people I've seen looked.

I studied German and the people in the text books looked really quite ugly (Germans are meant to have a reputation I've noticed ;)) with mousey hair, brown eyes and olivey skin, and unique facial features unusual for other North Europeans like the british, sort of nasal and mouth area almost rodent like. Really not the nicest people to look at. Kind of makes you think its not so silly after all to call Germans 'wogs' , and definitely not what most people think Germans look like, which is Hitler's kind of ideal.

Germany is located in North-Central Europe. It is the middle of Europe, thus it is very unlikely to have a "typical" type as such. However, we could say in North Germany, you have the Borreby-Dalofaelid domination, while in the south you have the Alpinid dominance. Nordid(Hallstatt/Keltic) are scattered all over and don't dominate really in the German population, usually come in mixed-forms such as the Sub-Nordid(Alpinid+Nordid) or Norid(Dinarid+Nordid). Now some have used the Borreby and Dalofaelid as "typically" German phenotype. Now are they right? I don't think so since Germany is not only North Germany, see.

Germaniathane
Friday, February 3rd, 2017, 03:47 PM
I'm 5'11" tall, 'pink complexion' with very light brown hair and light blue-green eyes, as a child up until I was about 6 I was blonde. Body hair is very pale, my arm hair is virtually white / transparent.

Is this typical 'Germanic look'?

The stereotypical Germanic is ( dark) golden-blond hair, blue eyes and a fair skin, as well as a tall stature (above 5'6'/5'7' for men and 5'2'/5'3' for females) .Narrow facial features such the nose, long-headed, strong chin, thin lips, small mouth. A slender to medium body type.

Catterick
Friday, February 3rd, 2017, 04:08 PM
I don't know what percentage of blonds stay that way or turn dark later but it is most common blondism in Asia Minor and the Balkans. Kurds in particular are noted for their lightness as children. From such a trait adult blondism was easy to evolve by a single mutation, retaining the infantile trait into maturity. Blondism in the SWP is differently evolved from that in Europe. But I have no idea about the Rif and N African blondism (a minority of ancient Egyptians were blonds).

Wulfaz
Saturday, February 4th, 2017, 07:32 AM
The typical German phenotype is the Reihengräber Nordid, a gracilised Cromagnonid what mixed the several local types in Germany, the ungracilised Cromagnonids, other gracilised Cromagnonids (Borreby, Alpinid, Baltid), the Mediterranids (Corded, Gracil-Mediterranid, Atlanto-Mediterranid). The typical pigmentation is darker than the Finnics and Slavs. The average hair is brown or golden blond, lesser black, red and light blond. The average skin colour is the mid-blue or light brown, lesser sky-blue, dark-brown and green. The pigmentation of the skin is fair, but it is with birthmarks and freckle, and it can tan against the Celtic ones who can have porcelain-white skin and they cannot tan, compare this with word "redneck".