PDA

View Full Version : Classify Sicilians



Tore
Thursday, August 21st, 2003, 12:49 AM
http://www.geocities.com/racial_myths/Sicilians.html

Pictures depicting the Sicilian people supplied by no other than Racial Myths himself.

I posted the link (and some pictures) and Stormfront in response to diabloblanco14 and his wish for me to post people of Southern European ancestry who are of questionable racial composition.

However, the post and entire thread 'disappeared' (see: deleted ), so I thought I would start a thread/poll here and ask for everyone's input.

Question is: How many of the individuals depicted, in your view, are of European (=non-middle Eastern/non-North African/non-Near Eastern/ non-sub-Saharan/ non-Mongoloid) sub-racial type?

Disclaimer: The purpose of this thread is to examine the racial character of the Sicilian people, and the Sicilian people only.

cosmocreator
Thursday, August 21st, 2003, 01:44 AM
I don't think we really need a disclaimer here. Maybe on SF where there is alot of sensitivity. I didn't do any counting but I wouldn't want most of them in Canada. But then, I'd say that about Greece and Italy too. I'd be quite happy if Canada was predominantly UP like it used to be.

Italia_Ariana
Thursday, August 21st, 2003, 02:18 AM
For someone who has travelled all around Sicilia, I voted for the 3rd option. The majority are of Southern European ancestry.

ADDITION: Looking at the pictures at the links, it is fairly easy to tell WHERE in Sicily these people come from.

goidelicwarrior
Thursday, August 21st, 2003, 09:21 AM
I don't think we really need a disclaimer here. Maybe on SF where there is alot of sensitivity. I didn't do any counting but I wouldn't want most of them in Canada. But then, I'd say that about Greece and Italy too. I'd be quite happy if Canada was predominantly UP like it used to be. respect your attitudes concerning Canada.. however I dont see any diff betwen a "dark" subracial mix like yourself or many of these Sicilians, there where a couple of guys with Oriental appearance .. but thats about it.. and u should stop talking about whole countries such as Italy, when u know perfectly that there are different subraces ranging from Nordish to Med, imagine if we start talking about Canadians or Americans, where would that leave u ? i understand that canada was populated by English and French but that was a 100 years ago and if u step out on any of your streets u will se it ? not to mention the US.. so would u be proffessional enough to speak about individuals not whole Nations...?

Milesian
Thursday, August 21st, 2003, 12:57 PM
The majority looked as if they were sub-racially European, but ther was many who looked no-Europid. Many of them had a middle-eastern look about them and you could see possibly negroid admixture in some of them (even some of the superficially Nordic looking ones).

Sizeable non-Europoid minority.

goidelicwarrior
Thursday, August 21st, 2003, 02:08 PM
The majority looked as if they were sub-racially European, but ther was many who looked no-Europid. Many of them had a middle-eastern look about them and you could see possibly negroid admixture in some of them (even some of the superficially Nordic looking ones).

Sizeable non-Europoid minority. sure.. so the majority of Canadians probably looks sub racially European.. however I dont refer to a whole nation when I talk about Americans or Canadians...

Milesian
Thursday, August 21st, 2003, 05:33 PM
What's your point?
I was reffering to the people in that link.

Nordhammer
Thursday, August 21st, 2003, 06:33 PM
respect your attitudes concerning Canada.. however I dont see any diff betwen a "dark" subracial mix like yourself or many of these Sicilians, there where a couple of guys with Oriental appearance .. but thats about it.. and u should stop talking about whole countries such as Italy, when u know perfectly that there are different subraces ranging from Nordish to Med, imagine if we start talking about Canadians or Americans, where would that leave u ? i understand that canada was populated by English and French but that was a 100 years ago and if u step out on any of your streets u will se it ? not to mention the US.. so would u be proffessional enough to speak about individuals not whole Nations...?

Cosmo isn't dark. Maybe the B&W picture fools you. Having brown hair and brown eyes doesn't make one "dark" in the common usage of the word. Cosmo is of a typical Central European pigmentation and common Northern European pigmentation.

There is a fundamental difference when talking about "Americans" vs talking about Sicilians. The Sicilians shown on that page are categorized as real Sicilians, not just a mix of people who happen to live there, as would be the modern interpretation of American. Those Sicilians are regarded as ethnic Sicilians, not just people who live in the nation.

Certainly there is room for some debate about "white Americans" as well, but for the most part, the correct usage of American or white American is synonymous with Northern-Central European.

So if Sicilians are accepting Middle Easterners as their blood kin (as Dienekes Pontikos does), then judging their people as a whole will bring a negative impression.

Italia_Ariana
Thursday, August 21st, 2003, 11:02 PM
.....
So if Sicilians are accepting Middle Easterners as their blood kin (as Dienekes Pontikos does), then judging their people as a whole will bring a negative impression.


Yes. It is the job of us comrades in S. Italy and Sicily to make sure that we don't accept middle easterners as kin. I personally know one recruitment officer (I believe that's what it's called in english) of the FN Provincia d'Agrigento division (SW Sicily) and he has turned down MANY people that wanted to join FN because of their middle eastern appearance.

Have faith in your S. Italian comrades. We are making good progress bringing NSism into our once glorious regions. I believe some Americans who live in the southern states may be familiar with the phrase: "The South shall rise again". We are making the same idea happen here. ;)

Of course the first step is to IDENTIFY those of "us" with middle eastern features. Which is why antropological threads like this serve us a good purpose.

A presto.

Federico

Milesian
Thursday, August 21st, 2003, 11:35 PM
An encouraging post IA, it would be great to see us triumph against the hordes of immigrants, mafia and other enemies of the Italian people

goidelicwarrior
Friday, August 22nd, 2003, 10:07 AM
[QUOTE=Nordhammer]Cosmo isn't dark. Maybe the B&W picture fools you. Having brown hair and brown eyes doesn't make one "dark" in the common usage of the word. Cosmo is of a typical Central European pigmentation and common Northern European pigmentation.


ok.. living in Scandinavia i can tell that brown hair and brown hair.. isent considered Nordic.. but if you say brown eyes and brown hair its within the " nordish range " it means the whole SE is Nordish.. but its not, merely 98% European of varying white subraces... btw I havent seen your pic Nordhammer, go to the Classify ourselves.. :onfire hope to see ya !!!! be well!!!!

goidelicwarrior
Friday, August 22nd, 2003, 10:54 AM
I don't think we really need a disclaimer here. Maybe on SF where there is alot of sensitivity. I didn't do any counting but I wouldn't want most of them in Canada. But then, I'd say that about Greece and Italy too. I'd be quite happy if Canada was predominantly UP like it used to be.dont get offended now.. its just that i am schratching my head a bit, it seems you dont like SE but would you please point out the diff betwen this Sicilian man and most Canadians ? regards!!!

nemo
Friday, August 22nd, 2003, 08:31 PM
dont get offended now.. its just that i am schratching my head a bit, it seems you dont like SE but would you please point out the diff betwen this Sicilian man and most Canadians ? regards!!!

He looks more white to me then cosmocreator does! and not all those people are ethnic Sicilians, racial myths points that out at the begginning of the web site.

Some of the ones that might be mixed you would also find in Germany, England and Scandinavian countrys etc.

Many scandinavians and Russians have a asiatic look about them, and some russians are dark and look like turks, some russians call them tartars but they russians mixed with mongrel blood.

Thier are no pure countrys, that is all a myth, thier are mixtures of some of the populace in all the countrys from scandinavia to Ireland, and take a good look at England and France, they are the worst.

nemo
Friday, August 22nd, 2003, 08:45 PM
I don't think we really need a disclaimer here. Maybe on SF where there is alot of sensitivity. I didn't do any counting but I wouldn't want most of them in Canada. But then, I'd say that about Greece and Italy too. I'd be quite happy if Canada was predominantly UP like it used to be.


As an Italian/American I can a sure you speaking for many of my kinsman, we feel the same about people of your breed.

You are no Ichon of the white race fella, take a good look at yourself!

Nordhammer
Friday, August 22nd, 2003, 08:51 PM
As an Italian/American I can a sure you speaking for many of my kinsman, we feel the same about people of your breed.

You are no Ichon of the white race fella, take a good look at yourself!

Cosmo is for Nordish preservation (as far as I know), and you are not I'm sure. So then there is a big difference between guys like him and your kind.

Milesian
Friday, August 22nd, 2003, 08:52 PM
As an Italian/American I can a sure you speaking for many of my kinsman, we feel the same about people of your breed.

You are no Ichon of the white race fella, take a good look at yourself!

Are you saying that Cosmocreator is non-white?
What leads you to that conclusion?
He looks like an Alpinid Europoid to me.
What non-Europoid classification would you give him?

Tore
Friday, August 22nd, 2003, 09:05 PM
dont get offended now.. its just that i am schratching my head a bit, it seems you dont like SE but would you please point out the diff betwen this Sicilian man and most Canadians ? regards!!!

He is not representative of the Sicilian population as a whole.


He looks more white to me then cosmocreator does! and not all those people are ethnic Sicilians, racial myths points that out at the begginning of the web site.

Seems to me that there are many non-ethnic Sicilians in Sicily. :rofl

Cosmocreator is largely UP/Alpine in racial composition, who, although having brown hair and eyes, has fair (see: non-brunette) skin tone, a trait rather uncommon among Mediterraneans in general, and particularly among Sicilians.


Many scandinavians and Russians have a asiatic look about them, and some russians are dark and look like turks, some russians call them tartars but they russians mixed with mongrel blood.

Genetic evidence would be appreciated here.

Italia_Ariana
Friday, August 22nd, 2003, 09:41 PM
Seems to me that there are many non-ethnic Sicilians in Sicily. :rofl

Please don't joke about such things. Every other day, boatloads of people from Albania, Iraq, Turkey, Morocco, Eygpt, and God knows where lands on the shores of Sicily. The same thing happens in my region as well. It's much like the situation in the South-Western States of the USA with regard to Mexican illegal immigration. Do you think we like having a bunch of muds swarm into our lands and our government does nothing about it?

Whether we are talking about Arabids who have lived in Sicily for 1 month, or 1.000 years doesn't really matter. What matters is what the people do about that problem and solve it.

nemo
Friday, August 22nd, 2003, 11:01 PM
Genetic evidence would be appreciated here.

Genetic evidence you want, I use my eyeballs, I live in a big city where thier are Russians, Irish, Scandinavians, you name it they live here.

So I know what people look like and you have plenty of mixbreeds up in Norway, besides just the Sami,and lapps, many blacks have mixed up there with the population also in the last 60 yrs or so.

These are Italians!

http://digilander.libero.it/C4LiG0L4/map.html

BTW! THIER IS PLENTY OF GENETIC EVIDENCE THAT SHOWS THE MONGREL BLOOD IN THESE GROUPS.

nemo
Friday, August 22nd, 2003, 11:15 PM
Please don't joke about such things. Every other day, boatloads of people from Albania, Iraq, Turkey, Morocco, Eygpt, and God knows where lands on the shores of Sicily. The same thing happens in my region as well. It's much like the situation in the South-Western States of the USA with regard to Mexican illegal immigration. Do you think we like having a bunch of muds swarm into our lands and our government does nothing about it?

Whether we are talking about Arabids who have lived in Sicily for 1 month, or 1.000 years doesn't really matter. What matters is what the people do about that problem and solve it.

Don't let it bother you Italia, this is the type of so called whites, at least they say thier white? that you have here in this country, thats why most Italians don't like them, and we feed them to the niggers.

Tronder is infested with sami/lapp blood and God knows what else? and he has the nerve to point a finger at Sicilians with his mythical views.

Stríbog
Friday, August 22nd, 2003, 11:16 PM
Genetic evidence you want, I use my eyeballs, I live in a big city where thier are Russians, Irish, Scandinavians, you name it they live here.

So I know what people look like and you have plenty of mixbreeds up in Norway, besides just the Sami,and lapps, many blacks have mixed up there with the population also in the last 60 yrs or so.

These are Italians!

http://digilander.libero.it/C4LiG0L4/map.html

Almost all of the "Russians" in NYC are Ashkenazi/Khazar Jews, Guido. So I wouldn't be surprised if you saw Turkic elements in them.

Regardless of what southern Europeans want to believe, NE Europe is much more pure than southern Europe.

nemo
Saturday, August 23rd, 2003, 12:01 AM
Almost all of the "Russians" in NYC are Ashkenazi/Khazar Jews, Guido. So I wouldn't be surprised if you saw Turkic elements in them.

Regardless of what southern Europeans want to believe, NE Europe is much more pure than southern Europe.

They are not all jews, I know many of them, some are and some are not.
Thier are plenty of non jew Russians in NYC.

Milesian
Saturday, August 23rd, 2003, 12:09 AM
They are not all jews, I know many of them, some are and some are not.
Thier are plenty of non jew Russians in NYC.


bulldog , your original reply was removed due to profanity and racial insults against others on this forum, which will not be tolerated.
I see you have cleaned up your replacement reply.

Please see to it that it remains at this standard

Italia_Ariana
Saturday, August 23rd, 2003, 12:22 AM
NE Europe is much more pure than southern Europe.

Maybe so, but that is not a good excuse for us SE WNs to stop fighting, let our coasts be undefended, and let the Arabs take over.

We will NOT give up the land of king Frederick II :knight

Tore
Saturday, August 23rd, 2003, 01:06 AM
Genetic evidence you want, I use my eyeballs, I live in a big city where thier are Russians, Irish, Scandinavians, you name it they live here.

That's Very objective of you.:)


Tronder is infested with sami/lapp blood and God knows what else? and he has the nerve to point a finger at Sicilians with his mythical views.

Yep. :rofl

Sometimes I actually wish Meds such as yourself were capable of debating in a rational manner.

It would makes things much more interesting.

Otherwise, refutation comes much too easily...

http://www.racearchives.com/archived/viewnews.asp?newsID=852016627788

Perhaps more significant than the Negroid ancestry in southern Europeans are their Asiatic and non-European Caucasoid ancestry. From ancient Greek and Roman times (and even before) to the Turkish and Moorish invasions, southern Europe experienced gene flow from North Africa and the Near East. Italy has 6% Mongoloid Y-chromosomes, along with high levels (by European standards) of non-Caucasoid mtDNA. Mongoloid genes have been detected in Greeks. Italians have 20% Middle Eastern HG9 and 13% North African HG21. Greeks have 28% HG9 and 28% HG21, plus 3% Mongoloid HG26. One recent study even estimated that 85-100% of Greek male lineages are Neolithic (and at least some of those lineages arrived in Greece well after the Neolithic, one expects).
Frequency of M and L mtDNA


Bulgaria/Turkey (2.92%)
France/Italy (2.42%)
Spain/Portugal (1.99%)
Germany (1.14)
England/Wales (.47%)
Scandinavia (.47%)
Scotland (.11%)
Iceland (0%)
Ireland (0%)


Now for the Lapps. No Paternal Mongoloid lineages, so here is mtDNA.

Saami

A 0
B 0
C 0
D 5.11
H 5.68
I 0
J 0
K 0
T 0
U 45.45
V 39.77
W .57
X .62
Z 3.41
Other 0



Results

Saami have ~2.555% Mongoloid lineages.

France/Italy (shame they're grouped together:)) have ~1.21% sub-saharan/East African admixture plus ~10% Middle Eastern lineages plus ~6.5% North African lineages.


Now here is a question for you: The study groups all Italians under one category. Where, in your opinion, would admixtue be higher, Mainland Italy or Sicily?

Have a nice day!

Trønder

Italia_Ariana
Saturday, August 23rd, 2003, 01:12 AM
Now here is a question for you: The study groups all Italians under one category. Where, in your opinion, would admixtue be higher, Mainland Italy or Sicily?

Have a nice day!

Trønder

Did they include Sardegna in that as well?

Tore
Saturday, August 23rd, 2003, 01:18 AM
Did they include Sardegna in that as well?

Probably.

My guess is Sardinians have more non-white admixture than Sicilians, who in turn, have more than mainland Italians.

Italia_Ariana
Saturday, August 23rd, 2003, 01:32 AM
Probably.

My guess is Sardinians have more non-white admixture than Sicilians, who in turn, have more than mainland Italians.

I've only been to Sardegna a few times. From what I've seen in Cagliari, you could be right.

Generally, the more South and West you go in Sicily, the more nonwhite admixture you find. Look at a map, It's virtually absent in Messina, and the Etna Valley, but prominant in Agrigento and Sciacca.

Mainland Italy, the only nonwhite admixture you see here is recent due to our government's measure to "catch up" to France and Britain's multicultural wonderlands.

cosmocreator
Saturday, August 23rd, 2003, 01:44 AM
I guess the disclaimer was necessary as there appear to be some sensitive Meds here.

nemo
Saturday, August 23rd, 2003, 02:30 AM
hey Tronder! you forgot this one!

http://www.racearchives.com/archived/viewnews.asp?newsID=431011378765

First of all the amount shown is not enough to change the race of that particular group, all Europeans have some dna of other races in them.

btw Tronder! why do you spend so much time here and at stormfront trying to prove that Sicilians are not white, and at the same time you yourself are mixed.

This is why they delete your posts at stormfront, because they are all nonsense , insignificant garbage and you prove nothing of any significant.

When you are all thru with your insulting behavior, when you get up in the morning and look in the mirror, you see the same old mixbreed that you were before you started your ranting.



Get a life creep.

One more post like this and I am banning you. You better get yourself under control quickly.

nemo
Saturday, August 23rd, 2003, 02:38 AM
Almost all of the "Russians" in NYC are Ashkenazi/Khazar Jews, Guido. So I wouldn't be surprised if you saw Turkic elements in them.

Regardless of what southern Europeans want to believe, NE Europe is much more pure than southern Europe.

BTW Fritz! my name is not Guido! It's richie, remember that for next time, will ya Fritz.

As far as who is more pure, SE or NE, that's debatable.

Stríbog
Saturday, August 23rd, 2003, 03:12 AM
BTW Fritz! my name is not Guido! It's richie, remember that for next time, will ya Fritz.

As far as who is more pure, SE or NE, that's debatable.

It's a Friday night, don't you have a Mets game to go to or something? :yawn

Tore
Saturday, August 23rd, 2003, 05:32 AM
hey Tronder!

How's it going man! :)


you forgot this one!

No, I've seen the study.

I really don't think you think you understand how such studies work, so I'll explain it to you in detail to help you comprehend it.

If you are looking for the gene marker (L1, L2, or L3 in this case) on an island(Sicily) of 5 million people, and 49 people tested do not have the gene marker.

Now, I ask you this: Would it be logically sound to conclude that since 49 people do not have the gene marker on an island of 5 million people, then the gene marker must not be present altogether?

You see, the study you posted which found no signs of African mtDNA in Sicily in no way invalidates similar studies which have found the contrary, rather the studies which have found Congoid mtDNA refutes the studies which have not.

Understand?


First of all the amount shown is not enough to change the race of that particular group, all Europeans have some dna of other races in them.

It is just a matter of how much and of what. Negroid and Mongoloid admixture do not equatet one another.


btw Tronder! why do you spend so much time here and at stormfront trying to prove that Sicilians are not white, and at the same time you yourself are mixed.

I enjoy discussing race and I will not cater to the feelings of others while doing so.


This is why they delete your posts at stormfront, because they are all nonsense , insignificant garbage and you prove nothing of any significant.

You're absolutely right! The fact that my posts fail to be compatible with the agenda at Stormfront must reflect the quality of the content being posted.

Very insightful! :bravo


When you are all thru with your insulting behavior, when you get up in the morning and look in the mirror, you see the same old mixbreed that you were before you started your ranting.

You seem to know me quite well!


Get a life creep.

:)

Tore
Saturday, August 23rd, 2003, 06:10 AM
As far as who is more pure, SE or NE, that's debatable.

Maybe to you....

Mongoloid Admixture in North-Eastern Europe

Paternal Lineages

(Hg 12)

Russia-4%
Estonia-4%
Finland-2%

Maternal Lineages

(Haplogroups A, B, C, and D)

Finland/Estonia-.5%
Russia-3.72%

Middle-Eastern/North African Admixture in Southern Europe

Paternal Lineages

(Hg 9, Hg 21)

Italy-33%
Greece-56%
Spain-13%
Portugal (North)-17%

Sub-Saharan Admixture

Paternal Lineages

(hg 7, hg 8)

Sardinians-10%

Maternal Lineages

(M, L1, L2, L3)

France/Italy- 2.42%
Greece-N/A
Spain-N/A
Portugal-N/A

nemo
Saturday, August 23rd, 2003, 07:02 PM
Most of the data you post is not valid today, they are old data and were not taken with todays scientific advancements.

For everyone you show thier is one that refutes it. :mock

Here read this!


http://www.geocities.com/racial_myths/aryanmyth.html

nemo
Saturday, August 23rd, 2003, 07:15 PM
Read this also!


http://www.geocities.com/racial_myths/genetic_variation.html :hair

http://www.geocities.com/racial_myths/admixture.html

nemo
Saturday, August 23rd, 2003, 07:21 PM
It's a Friday night, don't you have a Mets game to go to or something? :yawn

Wrong again Fritz! I'm a yankee fan!
:metal

nemo
Saturday, August 23rd, 2003, 07:38 PM
Tronder said!

If you are looking for the gene marker (L1, L2, or L3 in this case) on an island(Sicily) of 5 million people, and 49 people tested do not have the gene marker.

======================================== ==============

Where does it say 49? you just make things up as you go along to prove your lies, and why is your data valid, and other data that refutes yours not valid and you desperately try to discredit it.

I know! because you are desperate man who feels very insecure about the impuritys running thru your vanes. :retard

Tore
Saturday, August 23rd, 2003, 08:32 PM
Most of the data you post is not valid today, they are old data and were not taken with todays scientific advancements.

Here are the articles by which my data is derived.

Helgason et al. (2001) mtDNA and the Islands of the North Atlantic. Am J Hum Genet

http://www.journals.uchicago.edu/AJHG/journal/issues/v68n3/002146/002146.html


Rosser et al. (2000) European Y-Chromosome Diversity. Am J Hum Genet

http://www.journals.uchicago.edu/AJHG/journal/issues/v67n6/002082/002082.html


Now tell me Bulldog, since you seem to such an expert in the field of genetics, what significant scientific breakthroughs have taken place in the last two years which invalidates the data I provided?


For everyone you show thier is one that refutes it.

Here read this!

Ah, Racial Myths!

You know, Racial Myths scares me, not because I fear refutation from him, rather for I fear for others who so readily flock to his site and take in what he has to offer. Such individuals not unlike yourself Bulldog, individuals who have little knowledge in the way of genetics and physical anthropology, and thus, are prone to indoctination in the name of Northern European defamation.

Well, I guess your waiting for me to address the information on the site, so lets get to it shall we?


I don't doubt that Neolithic gene markers (hg 9 + hg 21) have been found in W. England/Wales. We can probably estimate male lineages to be ~5% in England/Wales as a whole (larger studies have shown none, and the gene marker was found in a small town), compared to 20-50% in Southern Europe.



As for Hg 16, it is a Europid gene marker, carried to Siberia by North-Eastern Europeans. Hg 16 shows more diversity in NE Europe than Siberia, and thus, must have originated there, establishing a distinct West-East gene flow.

It is true that Hg 16 approaches rather high frequencies in someEurasian populations (Buryats-52% and Yakuts-87%), although this only signifies Caucasoid genetic input, as mtDNA is overwhelmingly East Asian (haplogroups C,D-~80%).

One branch of the three clusters of Hg 16 may be indeed Mongoloid(Eu 13/N3). Regardless, it is only present in the Mari and Udmurt, and absent in all other European populations who showed notable incidences of Eu 14 (other two branches of Hg 16), namely the Saami, Ukrainians, and Slovaks.


Read this also!

No need, I've already explained it above (see Hg 16)


Where does it say 49?

Here ya go!:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=11505466&dopt=Abstract

The results show the presence of 32 different haplotypes in the 49 individuals examined.

Click on the link 0% African mtDNA in Sicily (erratum) .


you just make things up as you go along to prove your lies, and why is your data valid, and other data that refutes yours not valid and you desperately try to discredit it.

As for making it up (see above).

I wouldn't really say desperately. It's rather easy if you know a thing or two about genetics.



I know! because you are desperate man who feels very insecure about the impuritys running thru your vanes.

Must be it, eh? :D

nemo
Saturday, August 23rd, 2003, 09:31 PM
Tronder said!

Ah, Racial Myths!

You know, Racial Myths scares me, not because I fear refutation from him, rather for I fear for others who so readily flock to his site and take in what he has to offer. Such individuals not unlike yourself Bulldog, individuals who have little knowledge in the way of genetics and physical anthropology, and thus, are prone to indoctination in the name of Northern European defamation.
======================================== =================

it is not defamation of Northern Europeans, it is the truth, he shows all the incidence that happened that Nordic writers like Kemp etc did not tell so that they could prove the nordics were superior and pure.

Whether you like or disagree with Racial myths, remember he is not a stupid man and proves everything he says.

He has as much credibility and more in some cases as the nordics who have been defaming Southern Europeans for centrys, in fact you are doing the same thing.

The Southern European slander that SE are not white,Greeks,Spaniards, Italians are all vicious lies to inflate the ego of nordics.

I could show you where I live thousands and thousands of SE who look as white or whiter then some of the NE, AND THAT IS A FACT.

cosmocreator
Saturday, August 23rd, 2003, 09:44 PM
I could show you where I live thousands and thousands of SE who look as white or whiter then some of the NE, AND THAT IS A FACT.


So then you would agree that we shouldn't mix them together?

nemo
Saturday, August 23rd, 2003, 10:16 PM
So then you would agree that we shouldn't mix them together?

Thats your choice then be it,but in the real world whites as a whole see white people as white people, not if they are from north or south.

Both groups belong to the white race and have white babys, and millions of people have intermarried with different white groups.

Some people in this WN so called movement don't deal with reality, most white people that I know of all nationalities and feel about things as we do, will not get involved with this movement because they see many of you as fanatical people and consider it a sub-culture of the white race.

A lot of you people really live in your own world and will never get a big following.

Tore
Saturday, August 23rd, 2003, 10:26 PM
I could show you where I live thousands and thousands of SE who look as white or whiter then some of the NE, AND THAT IS A FACT.

But I thought Northern Europeans were of mixed race?



And I quote you:

"Many scandinavians and Russians have a asiatic look about them,"

"As an Italian/American I can a sure you speaking for many of my kinsman, we feel the same about people of your breed."

"I know! because you are desperate man who feels very insecure about the impuritys running thru your vanes. "

"So I know what people look like and you have plenty of mixbreeds up in Norway, "


Poor Bulldog!

You so viciously despise Northern Europeans, yet wish to emulate them at the same time.

Stríbog
Saturday, August 23rd, 2003, 10:32 PM
Thats your choice then be it,but in the real world whites as a whole see white people as white people, not if they are from north or south.

Both groups belong to the white race and have white babys, and millions of people have intermarried with different white groups.

Some people in this WN so called movement don't deal with reality, most white people that I know of all nationalities and feel about things as we do, will not get involved with this movement because they see many of you as fanatical people and consider it a sub-culture of the white race.

A lot of you people really live in your own world and will never get a big following.

What is "white"? Are some Arabs white? Are some Jews white? What makes Greeks and Sicilians "white" while Iranians are "non-white"? Religion?

nemo
Sunday, August 24th, 2003, 12:05 AM
What is "white"? Are some Arabs white? Are some Jews white? What makes Greeks and Sicilians "white" while Iranians are "non-white"? Religion?

What makes you white, you read it in a book one time, because many of your breed sure look questionable?

cosmocreator
Sunday, August 24th, 2003, 12:17 AM
What makes you white, you read it in a book one time, because many of your breed sure look questionable?


Why are you so insecure? I always have to question people who grasp to the word white. It is usually those that are questionable that grasp to it. I don't see Scandinavians worried that they might not be white. Nor Germans or French. It's always Meds from Italy, Greece, the Middle East. They want to be considered white as if that word has some major significance. Not one person has ever been able to tell me what white means.

Stríbog
Sunday, August 24th, 2003, 12:18 AM
What makes you white, you read it in a book one time, because many of your breed sure look questionable?

LOL if you can't answer my question just say so. Reading books isn't so bad, you might want to try it sometime. It might teach you not to spell "there" t-h-i-e-r. I'm secure in my subracial makeup, you don't sound as if you are.

nemo
Sunday, August 24th, 2003, 12:20 AM
But I thought Northern Europeans were of mixed race?



And I quote you:

"Many scandinavians and Russians have a asiatic look about them,"

"As an Italian/American I can a sure you speaking for many of my kinsman, we feel the same about people of your breed."

"I know! because you are desperate man who feels very insecure about the impuritys running thru your vanes. "

"So I know what people look like and you have plenty of mixbreeds up in Norway, "


Poor Bulldog!

You so viciously despise Northern Europeans, yet wish to emulate them at the same time.

I don't despise Northern Europeans at all most of my friends are NE Americans.

Where the hell do you get the idea that I want to emulate NE, You must be having illusions, I am very satisfied with my Italian heritage, and I am very fair skinned with blue eyes, so why would I want emulate you people for? it is the ignorant insulting nordics like you that I despise, as most Italians do. :soap

nemo
Sunday, August 24th, 2003, 12:29 AM
Why are you so insecure? I always have to question people who grasp to the word white. It is usually those that are questionable that grasp to it. I don't see Scandinavians worried that they might not be white. Nor Germans or French. It's always Meds from Italy, Greece, the Middle East. They want to be considered white as if that word has some major significance. Not one person has ever been able to tell me what white means.

I am fair skinned and have blue eyes, so I have no problem about whether I am white or not, you people are the ones who have that problem, thats why you keep trying to prove that SE are mixed, when many of you are the mixed ones.

cosmocreator
Sunday, August 24th, 2003, 12:34 AM
I am fair skinned and have blue eyes, so I have no problem about whether I am white or not, you people are the ones who have that problem, thats why you keep trying to prove that SE are mixed, when many of you are the mixed ones.


So having fair skin and blue eyes is what makes someone white? There are no other requirements?

Stríbog
Sunday, August 24th, 2003, 12:38 AM
So having fair skin and blue eyes is what makes someone white? There are no other requirements?

I guess Vanessa Williams is white then. :P

Tore
Sunday, August 24th, 2003, 12:39 AM
I am fair skinned and have blue eyes, so I have no problem about whether I am white or not,

I have fair skin, blue eyes, and fair hair, yet according to you, I am of mixed race.


thats why you keep trying to prove that SE are mixed, when many of you are the mixed ones.

See: genetic evidence


it is the ignorant insulting nordics like you that

Nordic? I thought I was a mix-breed?

For the record, when did I ever insult you?

nemo
Sunday, August 24th, 2003, 12:52 AM
So having fair skin and blue eyes is what makes someone white? There are no other requirements?

Of course thier are! but you nordcist are always judging a persons race by the way they look, so why the question?

Hey whats the point to keep on going on about this, you people don't like Italians, well thats alright with me, you have a right to like and dislike whom ever you want, Italians don't demand that you like them.

We just don't like it when you become arrogant and insulting, that we will not tolerate.

nemo
Sunday, August 24th, 2003, 12:58 AM
This will be my last post here, because I can see I'm dealing with a bunch of retards.

It's time I get back to the real world, while you mulattos figure out who is white.

You people are a waste of time.

bulldog, I don't know what your problem is. Not everyone here is a Nordicist and no-one said they hated Italians, in fact we have full-blooded Italian nationals here and no-one seems to have a problem with them. You have just got this idea into your head for some reason. I'm sorry you feel the way you do. In any case you have been banned for 3 days so you can cool off. Although as you said you won't be posting here again, then perhaps it doesn't matter anyway

nemo
Sunday, August 24th, 2003, 01:00 AM
I guess Vanessa Williams is white then. :P

Compared to you she probably is.

Stríbog
Sunday, August 24th, 2003, 01:21 AM
Compared to you she probably is.

Ouch, I'm hurt. :giggle
Nice to see you can't keep a resolution more than 2 minutes ;)

Tore
Sunday, August 24th, 2003, 06:27 AM
you people don't like Italians,

I wouldn't say that.


We just don't like it when you become arrogant and insulting,

Let's review all the insults in this thread, shall we?

"Compared to you she probably is."

"because I can see I'm dealing with a bunch of retards."

"while you mulattos figure out who is white."

"when many of you are the mixed ones"

"I know! because you are desperate man who feels very insecure about the impuritys running thru your vanes. "

"You are no Ichon of the white race fella, take a good look at yourself!"

Tronder is infested with sami/lapp blood and God knows what else?

"because they are all nonsense , insignificant garbage and you prove nothing of any significant."

", you see the same old mixbreed that you were before you started your ranting."

Get a life creep.

Need I say more?

Yet after all this, it is supposedly Northern Europeans who attack and insult Southern Europeans.

Italia_Ariana
Sunday, August 24th, 2003, 07:08 AM
I wouldn't say that.

I'd have to agree with Trønder, Bulldog. The vast majority of N Europeans love us. :smoke
Except of course, for these next 5 months when Berluska is president of the EU. Now, all of Europe dislike us because *we* let a tyrannical, greedy capitalist to be in charge. Ah, the fun never stops in italian politics. :scared

goidelicwarrior
Monday, August 25th, 2003, 11:18 AM
I guess the disclaimer was necessary as there appear to be some sensitive Meds here.

its not about sensitivity.. rather the fact that somehow Sicily is so often a topic in a negative way on racialst boards when the fact is that many European are more " diverse " than Sicily... not to speak about US/Canada.. real multicultural societies with a myriad of mongrels... somehow I can understand some " meds " who are questioned by " nordics " mainly from the new world who are not Nordics in reallity, but wannabe Nordics and since they are not pure Nordics they invent a term called Nordish in wich brown eyed dark haired people are Nordish as long as they are from Northern Europe.. or ??? . i think most insecurity are to be found with those who have no ties with their past or no own homogeneous culture and try to steal Greek or Roman achivments.. wouldent you agree? however I think that the preservation of western value and culture is far more important, there is soon no going back, Personally we have both hazel and blue eyes in our familly.. and I have the greatest admiration for all the European subraces.. indeed the Indo European element is very much dominant in our part of Europe..

Nordhammer
Monday, August 25th, 2003, 06:11 PM
its not about sensitivity.. rather the fact that somehow Sicily is so often a topic in a negative way on racialst boards when the fact is that many European are more " diverse " than Sicily... not to speak about US/Canada.. real multicultural societies with a myriad of mongrels... somehow I can understand some " meds " who are questioned by " nordics " mainly from the new world who are not Nordics in reallity, but wannabe Nordics and since they are not pure Nordics they invent a term called Nordish in wich brown eyed dark haired people are Nordish as long as they are from Northern Europe.. or ???

Southern European racial types are not compatible with Northern European racial types, end of story.

If everyone stayed in their own countries and desired their own people, we could all be friends. :)

Italia_Ariana
Monday, August 25th, 2003, 06:56 PM
If everyone stayed in their own countries and desired their own people, we could all be friends. :)

Maybe that's how it is in America. But in Europe, there is still much dislike amongst groups that your dream would only incubate the dislike further. We in Europe, need racial european unity. And, racial european unity does not mean switching the populations of Greece and Sweden around. We need respect for each other and each others accomplishments. By locking up people in their own country and encouraging ethnic pride, you are forcing Europeans to foget that we have a common patrimony.

Nordhammer
Monday, August 25th, 2003, 07:51 PM
Maybe that's how it is in America. But in Europe, there is still much dislike amongst groups that your dream would only incubate the dislike further. We in Europe, need racial european unity. And, racial european unity does not mean switching the populations of Greece and Sweden around. We need respect for each other and each others accomplishments. By locking up people in their own country and encouraging ethnic pride, you are forcing Europeans to foget that we have a common patrimony.

Would my "dream" not solve our racial problems?

I made it simplistic and brief for sake of brevity. It's more complicated than that of course and no one is seriously talking about locking people up.

Tore
Monday, August 25th, 2003, 08:12 PM
Maybe that's how it is in America. But in Europe, there is still much dislike amongst groups that your dream would only incubate the dislike further. We in Europe, need racial european unity. And, racial european unity does not mean switching the populations of Greece and Sweden around. We need respect for each other and each others accomplishments. By locking up people in their own country and encouraging ethnic pride, you are forcing Europeans to foget that we have a common patrimony.

Would such movements not take place on a national level?

Italia_Ariana
Monday, August 25th, 2003, 08:26 PM
Would such movements not take place on a national level?

I'll assume you're talking about migrational movements within Europe. While there have always been migrations, we in Europe will try to foster complete cooperation with one another but at the same time, keep trans-euronational migrations to a minimal. I too, would like to see NATIVE Swedes in Sweden, NATIVE Italians in Italy, and NATIVE Irish in Ireland and so on and so on. Yet, at the same time, one must realise how insignificant nationality becomes when a nigerian or turkish immigrant is granted a citizenship of a European nation.

Yes, in Europe exists an identity crisis among European whites. Do we exchange our beloved, but now seemingly meaningless nationalities for Pan-European unity?

A difficult question considering the bad blood between our nations.

Italia_Ariana
Monday, August 25th, 2003, 08:28 PM
no one is seriously talking about locking people up.

Figure of speech ;)

Nordhammer
Monday, August 25th, 2003, 08:49 PM
I'll assume you're talking about migrational movements within Europe.

I think he's talking about within the nation. Probably more in reference to large nations such as America.

Even in America there are regional differences, that are sometimes quite distinct. For instance, take Savannah, Georgia. I was watching a program on TV about it, and a guy from a northern state had moved to Savannah and he said that he never knew what a yankee was, much less that he was one, until he moved to Savannah. :D

There are differences in accent, mannerisms, words, and more importantly differences still held on to from the Civil War. It's much more complicated than just us all being "Americans", especially in the ridiculous modern interpretation of it, much like how our German friend described the situation in Germany (everyone who is a citizen is a "German", regardless of race).

Endogamy should be the standard.

Italia_Ariana
Monday, August 25th, 2003, 09:49 PM
I think he's talking about within the nation. Probably more in reference to large nations such as America.

Even in America there are regional differences, that are sometimes quite distinct. For instance, take Savannah, Georgia. I was watching a program on TV about it, and a guy from a northern state had moved to Savannah and he said that he never knew what a yankee was, much less that he was one, until he moved to Savannah. :D

There are differences in accent, mannerisms, words, and more importantly differences still held on to from the Civil War. It's much more complicated than just us all being "Americans", especially in the ridiculous modern interpretation of it, much like how our German friend described the situation in Germany (everyone who is a citizen is a "German", regardless of race).

Endogamy should be the standard.

Exactly. The modern interpretation of nationality, is a joke. What are the applications of endogamy, do you think? In Europe, we have many "S. European" types in N. Europe, and many "N. European" types in S. Europe that have made their homes in those nations and have adopted the culture of them. Leting them stay there in those nations, but marrying within their own subgroup would be the best, IMO. What do you think? (I hope my english blabbering made sense!)

Tore
Tuesday, August 26th, 2003, 12:13 AM
I'll assume you're talking about migrational movements within Europe.

Well, actually, I was referring to the concept of Nationalism in terms of a political movement.

cosmocreator
Tuesday, August 26th, 2003, 12:32 AM
Even in America there are regional differences, that are sometimes quite distinct.


Same in Canada. Having lived in 4 provinces which are themselves bigger than some European countries. Alberta and Ontario are somewhat alike racially. Quebec is different than any other I've lived in. The people here in BC are different mentally than any other province I've lived in. I'd say they are more paranoid. More distrustful. Less likely to take risks. Emotionally, the people of Quebec are the warmest.

Italia_Ariana
Tuesday, August 26th, 2003, 02:14 AM
Well, actually, I was referring to the concept of Nationalism in terms of a political movement.

Misunderstandings make things fun, don't they?
;)

Well, I believe we should start on a local level, then move to regional, then national and then, continental with help and cooperation from other localities, regions, and nations in Europe.

Italia_Ariana
Tuesday, August 26th, 2003, 02:24 AM
Same in Canada. Having lived in 4 provinces which are themselves bigger than some European countries. Alberta and Ontario are somewhat alike racially. Quebec is different than any other I've lived in. The people here in BC are different mentally than any other province I've lived in. I'd say they are more paranoid. More distrustful. Less likely to take risks. Emotionally, the people of Quebec are the warmest.


Are the Québecois subracially UP, as most of Canada is as you stated earlier in the thread?

cosmocreator
Tuesday, August 26th, 2003, 02:40 AM
Are the Québecois subracially UP, as most of Canada is as you stated earlier in the thread?

I think they are mostly Alpinid. There are Anglo-Saxons along the US border. I find the people of Quebec and Alberta are the most attractive physically. Alberta I think has alot of Falish particularly in the southern part near Calgary. The north is different and is actually more mixed. Since I'm an Alpinid/Falish mix, I should be most attracted to these places.

Italia_Ariana
Tuesday, August 26th, 2003, 02:48 AM
I think they are mostly Alpinid. There are Anglo-Saxons along the US border. I find the people of Quebec and Alberta are the most attractive physically. Alberta I think has alot of Falish particularly in the southern part near Calgary. The north is different and is actually more mixed. Since I'm an Alpinid/Falish mix, I should be most attracted to these places.


Interesting. I wish you Canadian WNs the best of luck (looks like you need it!). And same to all North American WN.

Tore
Tuesday, August 26th, 2003, 07:12 AM
I think they are mostly Alpinid. There are Anglo-Saxons along the US border. I find the people of Quebec and Alberta are the most attractive physically. Alberta I think has alot of Falish particularly in the southern part near Calgary. The north is different and is actually more mixed. Since I'm an Alpinid/Falish mix, I should be most attracted to these places.

The prairie provinces have a significant (21%) percentage of those who are part/wholly Ukrainian in ancestry.

Aside from that, British Isles ancestry seems to predominate, at least where I live (Alberta).

There are a fair number of Germans here in addition, although nowhere near the amount found in Ontario. Some towns/cities
have had their once German names Anglicized as a result of the two World Wars. Kitchener (Berlin) is one that comes to mind.

Many Newfoundlanders (particularly in Ft.McMurray) work abroad here, taking advantage of our industry boom. Jobs are hard to come by in Atlantic Canada, due to the collapse of the Fishing/Cod industry.

One finds that such Newfoundlander's are nearly exlusively of Irish extraction.

goidelicwarrior
Tuesday, August 26th, 2003, 09:17 AM
[QUOTE=Nordhammer]Southern European racial types are not compatible with Northern European racial types, end of story.

If everyone stayed in their own countries and desired their own people, we could all be friends. :)[/QUOTE Do u really think there are an Nordic, Alpine or Med "race " after 3000 years of migrations back and forth in Europe.. or in the US... I sure dident see that this summer when i visited your country... :cheekkiss

goidelicwarrior
Tuesday, August 26th, 2003, 10:41 AM
Maybe that's how it is in America. But in Europe, there is still much dislike amongst groups that your dream would only incubate the dislike further. We in Europe, need racial european unity. And, racial european unity does not mean switching the populations of Greece and Sweden around. We need respect for each other and each others accomplishments. By locking up people in their own country and encouraging ethnic pride, you are forcing Europeans to foget that we have a common patrimony. well said.. thats reallity.. we in Europe are the only ones with political parties dedicated to the preservation of Europe and the white race...

The Oracle
Thursday, September 4th, 2003, 09:25 AM
Forum members' amateur evaluations of phenotypes notwithstanding, genetic research indicates that Sicilians are neither of Negroid nor of Moorish descent:


In a sample of 465 Sicilians from all over the island, 10 mtDNA haplogroup M sequences of presumable proto-Asian origin were detected, while only 3 sub-Saharan L sequences were found, bringing the total non-Caucasoid maternal admixture in Sicily to 2.8%, with just 0.65% of this being Negroid (Note that Richards et al. 1998 found white Britons to have 1% black mtDNA). To date, no sub-Saharan Y-chromosomes have been discovered in Sicily.

Source: Romano et al., Ann Hum Genet, 2003 (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=12556234&dopt=Abstract) (details cited here (http://racialreality.shorturl.com/italians))



Berbers are distinguished by a particular subclade of HG21 [or E*(xE3)] which is labeled 25.2 in [1]. In contrast, Europeans and Arabs have higher levels of another clade, 25.1. Thus, while Berbers have 71.0% of 25.2, Europeans have at most 5.6% in a sample from Lombardy, while Spaniards have at most 2.2% (with the exception of an isolated population group of known mixed origins), the French have 4.1%, most Sardinians lack it, while one group has it at a frequency of 2.1%, and only one of three Sicilian groups (from Sciacca) has it at a frequency of 2.3%.

These results are a strong indication that most of HG21 and its subclades in Europe is of ancient origin and not associated with recent absorption of North African elements, which can be quantified at less than 5%. Note also that since data on the origin of HG25.2 are not available, it may be possible that part of it may be of prehistoric origin, i.e., predating the Roman and Medieval periods.

[1] Human Immunology, Volume 62, Issue 9, September 2001, Pages 871-884

Source: http://www.dienekes.com/blog/archives/000219.html

Evolved
Friday, September 5th, 2003, 08:13 AM
These portraits of Sicilians were taken by Wilhelm von Gloeden between the years 1890 and 1905.

Evolved
Friday, September 5th, 2003, 08:20 AM
A mugshot from the 1930's of Carlo Gambino, born in Palermo, Sicily
A 1936 mugshot of Charles "Lucky" Luciano (born Salvatore Lucania in Lercara Friddi, Sicily)
A Sicilian girl's portrait from 1914

Tore
Friday, September 5th, 2003, 03:25 PM
In a sample of 465 Sicilians from all over the island, 10 mtDNA haplogroup M sequences of presumable proto-Asian origin were detected, while only 3 sub-Saharan L sequences were found, bringing the total non-Caucasoid maternal admixture in Sicily to 2.8%, with just 0.65% of this being Negroid (Note that Richards et al. 1998 found white Britons to have 1% black mtDNA). To date, no sub-Saharan Y-chromosomes have been discovered in Sicily.

Although sub-saharan African lineages are of minimal(<5%) in both the Sicilians and British, most studies have indicated a higher incidence of mtDNA lineages (L1, L2, and L3) in Sicilians opposed to the British. I could provide sources if you wish.


Berbers are distinguished by a particular subclade of HG21 [or E*(xE3)] which is labeled 25.2 in [1]. In contrast, Europeans and Arabs have higher levels of another clade, 25.1. Thus, while Berbers have 71.0% of 25.2, Europeans have at most 5.6% in a sample from Lombardy, while Spaniards have at most 2.2% (with the exception of an isolated population group of known mixed origins), the French have 4.1%, most Sardinians lack it, while one group has it at a frequency of 2.1%, and only one of three Sicilian groups (from Sciacca) has it at a frequency of 2.3%.

I wouldn't doubt that.

Of course, you omitted the other neolithic haplogroup (more) common in Southern Europe, that being Middle Eastern Hg 9.

It is estimated that Neolithic Haplogroups (Hg 9+ 21) have contributed 70% of male Southern Italian lineages.

It is a shame that Sicilians weren't analyzed specifically.




I doubt you will consider my source credible.

http://www.geocities.com/refuting_rm/italy.html

The Oracle
Saturday, September 6th, 2003, 10:10 AM
most studies have indicated a higher incidence of mtDNA lineages (L1, L2, and L3) in Sicilians opposed to the British.

That's possible. Different studies will always generate slightly different results, depending on sample pools and sizes. The point is, Sicilians aren't significantly Negroid, despite what's often said.



It is estimated that Neolithic Haplogroups (Hg 9+ 21) have contributed 70% of male Southern Italian lineages.

What does Mediterranean ancestry dating back 10,000 years and shared by all Europeans have to do with the issue of Sicilians being mixed with their slaves/conquerors?

See this article: http://www.angeltowns.com/members/racialreal/neolithic.html



I doubt you will consider my source credible.

Much of the data is credible, much is not (Earlson, Guenther). But since the author is a minion of Arthur Kemp, the interpretations are all but worthless. The two studies I cited speak for themselves. They require no interpretation.

Tore
Sunday, September 7th, 2003, 03:43 AM
What does Mediterranean ancestry dating back 10,000 years and shared by all Europeans have to do with the issue of Sicilians being mixed with their slaves/conquerors?

Perhaps nothing.

Hg 9 is present among Northern Europeans as well (Dutch, Russians namely).

I don't have the warrant to say that most of the Hg 9 lineages in Northern Europe are strictly Neolithic, nor can I deem the presence of Hg 9 in Southern Europe as indicative of recent gene flow.


Much of the data is credible, much is not (Earlson, Guenther). But since the author is a minion of Arthur Kemp, the interpretations are all but worthless.

I somewhat agree. MoTT is not exactly the pinnacle of Anthropolgical/Genetic material.


The two studies I cited speak for themselves. They require no interpretation.

The purpose of my post was not to refute, rather to provide additional material.

cosmocreator
Tuesday, October 7th, 2003, 10:20 PM
Just did a search on bulldog's posts and look what I found. Some people never change.



This will be my last post here, because I can see I'm dealing with a bunch of retards.

It's time I get back to the real world, while you mulattos figure out who is white.

You people are a waste of time.

bulldog, I don't know what your problem is. Not everyone here is a Nordicist and no-one said they hated Italians, in fact we have full-blooded Italian nationals here and no-one seems to have a problem with them. You have just got this idea into your head for some reason. I'm sorry you feel the way you do. In any case you have been banned for 3 days so you can cool off. Although as you said you won't be posting here again, then perhaps it doesn't matter anyway

nemo
Wednesday, October 8th, 2003, 12:43 AM
Just did a search on bulldog's posts and look what I found. Some people never change.

No I will never change! I like the way I am, and people like you to me are just like a fly is on a horses ass.

I'm not here to please you or get your approval and have nothing but contempt for people like you and others here with your derogotory remarks about Italians.

Italians don't have to prove nothing to you people, because your nothing to us.

Italians are white! the question is how many of you are as white as you dream you are.

Anybody who trys to insinuate that Italians are not white are just a bunch of morons, and are unable to accomplish any achievements for themselves in the real world.

cosmocreator
Wednesday, October 8th, 2003, 12:53 AM
You've just been shunned for a week. Start showing some respect or I'll ban you forever.



No I will never change! I like the way I am, and people like you to me are just like a fly is on a horses ass.

I'm not here to please you or get your approval and have nothing but contempt for people like you and others here with your derogotory remarks about Italians.

Italians don't have to prove nothing to you people, because your nothing to us.

Italians are white! the question is how many of you are as white as you dream you are.

Anybody who trys to insinuate that Italians are not white are just a bunch of morons, and are unable to accomplish any achievements for themselves in the real world.

Stríbog
Wednesday, October 8th, 2003, 01:05 AM
No I will never change! I like the way I am, and people like you to me are just like a fly is on a horses ass.

LOL he tries to insult people by comparing *himself* to a horse's ass? What a smart guinea...

Ewergrin
Wednesday, October 8th, 2003, 04:24 AM
LOL he tries to insult people by comparing *himself* to a horse's ass? What a smart guinea...


Italians.....go figure.


:jk ;)

Italia_Ariana
Wednesday, October 8th, 2003, 04:31 AM
Italians.....go figure.


:jk ;)

We have a great sense of humor. ;)
Joking aside, these "Italian-Americans" are some of the strangest behaving Italians I've ever met. I would like to see all Italian diaspora throughout the whole world move back here, but some people....ehhhh, you Americans can keep them. :)

Prodigal Son
Wednesday, October 8th, 2003, 07:58 PM
He looks more white to me then cosmocreator does! and not all those people are ethnic Sicilians, racial myths points that out at the begginning of the web site.

Yes, most of the lighter ones, like that guy you are referring to (who "looks more white that cosmocreator does") probably are not ethnic Sicilians.

Prodigal Son
Wednesday, October 8th, 2003, 08:11 PM
This guy would not be out of place in North Africa:
http://www.siciliani.com/upload/39.jpg

I am sick of all these Med-supremacist morons thinking that they can "prove" something by carefully selecting pictures of what they want a given ethnicity to look like (in this case, Racial Myths is trying to "prove" that Sicilians are indistiguishable from other Euro-Americans, and to a lesser degree other Europeans), which is of course ridiculous. He used to get pictures of Central Asians and Volga ethnics of off various mail-order bride sites in order to "prove" that Russians are Uralics. Fucking hilarious.

Prodigal Son
Wednesday, October 8th, 2003, 08:23 PM
"The skin color [of Sicilians] is as a rule dark; over 50 per cent of unexposed shades are definitely light brown or olive-colored, while the exposed skin often tans to a distinctive reddish-brown. "
Source (http://www.fikas.no/~sprocket/snpa/chapter-XII7.htm)

Try to see how many people in RM's carefully selected inventory fit this description.

goidelicwarrior
Thursday, October 9th, 2003, 10:13 AM
This guy would not be out of place in North Africa:
http://www.siciliani.com/upload/39.jpg

I am sick of all these Med-supremacist morons thinking that they can "prove" something by carefully selecting pictures of what they want a given ethnicity to look like (in this case, Racial Myths is trying to "prove" that Sicilians are indistiguishable from other Euro-Americans, and to a lesser degree other Europeans), which is of course ridiculous. He used to get pictures of Central Asians and Volga ethnics of off various mail-order bride sites in order to "prove" that Russians are Uralics. Fucking hilarious. so dont carefully select then a pic of a supposedly Sicilian?? go abroad instead and see for yourself.... and please explain what about these Sicilians are so different from a Bavarian or Frenchman?? Scandinavia is mostly hallstatt Nordic but in any other European country these gentlemen would not stick out a lot if all.. and in the US they would be the shrinking white majority..

http://digilander.libero.it/C4LiG0L4/SardiniaSicily.html

Loki
Thursday, October 9th, 2003, 10:26 AM
Euro Americans.. are soon no more., moreover its stupid to post 1 or two pics to demonstrate a whole people.. so why do you guys post this " dark " pic of a supposed Sicilian ???? btw.. why the hell are you targeting Sicilians? christian Europeans of various subtypes when the western civilization is crumbling under the weight of Jewish run America ????? you should focus on the ethnic hellholes that US cities are and some European aswell....

Don't worry, we've had people here saying this attached picture is an ethnic Swede, so you're in good company ;)

http://www.sarekonline.com/bilder/bilder/kristofer3.jpg

goidelicwarrior
Thursday, October 9th, 2003, 10:40 AM
Don't worry, we've had people here saying this attached picture is an ethnic Swede, so you're in good company ;)

http://www.sarekonline.com/bilder/bilder/kristofer3.jpg ha ha who posted that pic ? off course hes not an ethnic Swede... my point was.. you live in London surrounded by Muslim pakis, right ? so why not concentrate on them rather than other European ethnicities... and .. im always in good company.. my pic is in the Celtic realm.. im not afraid to show myself..like some others :D

Loki
Thursday, October 9th, 2003, 10:49 AM
ha ha who posted that pic ? off course hes not an ethnic Swede... my point was.. you live in London surrounded by Muslim pakis, right ? so why not concentrate on them rather than other European ethnicities... and .. im always in good company.. my pic is in the Celtic realm.. im not afraid to show myself..like some others :D

This one is also an ethnic Germanic Swede, according to some:

http://www.sarekonline.com/bilder/bilder/jessica3.jpg

Yes I agree with what you say. Italians are no racial danger, in any way. In fact, they're threatened with extinction because of low birth rates -- the lowest in Europe I believe. And this demographic problem is a uniquely European one. (perhaps Japan may qualify too)

goidelicwarrior
Thursday, October 9th, 2003, 10:58 AM
This one is also an ethnic Germanic Swede, according to some:

http://www.sarekonline.com/bilder/bilder/jessica3.jpg

Yes I agree with what you say. Italians are no racial danger, in any way. In fact, they're threatened with extinction because of low birth rates -- the lowest in Europe I believe. And this demographic problem is a uniquely European one. (perhaps Japan may qualify too) acctually it depends what you mean with Ethnic Swede.. she is most likely from the north and therefor with saami admixture, she is an ethnic Swede but not a pure Germanic Swede off course.. I mean the Saamis have been here longer than Indo Europeans they say...

diabloblanco92
Thursday, October 9th, 2003, 03:16 PM
http://www.geocities.com/racial_myths/Sicilians.html

Pictures depicting the Sicilian people supplied by no other than Racial Myths himself.

I posted the link (and some pictures) and Stormfront in response to diabloblanco14 and his wish for me to post people of Southern European ancestry who are of questionable racial composition.

However, the post and entire thread 'disappeared' (see: deleted ), so I thought I would start a thread/poll here and ask for everyone's input.

Question is: How many of the individuals depicted, in your view, are of European (=non-middle Eastern/non-North African/non-Near Eastern/ non-sub-Saharan/ non-Mongoloid) sub-racial type?

Disclaimer: The purpose of this thread is to examine the racial character of the Sicilian people, and the Sicilian people only.

I dont know of any credentialed anthropoligist that recognizes a "European" racial type,(though its certainly very much a valid cultural identity) so the question is based on what appears to be a false premise, at least in the STRICTLY PHYSICAL RACIAL SENSE
If you want to speak of Aryan or White, thats different, the term White meaning any of the following:
A person of Indo-European extraction of Nordic, Alpine or Mediterranean descent
Old Europeans
Hametic descent (Admittedly not many White pure Hamites left)
White Ural- Altaic extraction.
Any mix or combination of the above
Dont get me wrong, I think what you really mean by "Middle Eastern" are the large number of racially mixed people who currently reside there. However, outside of the Arabian Peninsula, these are not the original inhabitants of the ME
However, I will not digress further.
If you are asking me how many of the persons on that link fall in the "Mixed" ME catagory, or are otherwise outside of the definition of White as I have given it, the answer is none, and I defy you to show me how I am wrong.
I am deeply disappointed by the lickspittle "Southern Europeans" who buy into this Spike Lee Afrocentric legend about their Aryan brothers, and brag of cooperating with our enemies in "selecting out" their Med Aryan brothers.
Self hated is an ugly animal, whether its on the racial or subracial side.
I guess Im not on friendly ground here and will probably be "Shunned" (What are you guys Jehovahas Witnesses? :D JK) But I had to get that out, and yeah, just so everyone knows, Im Diablo14 from SF AKA Diablo92 on Yahoo

Diablo

diabloblanco92
Thursday, October 9th, 2003, 03:28 PM
This guy would not be out of place in North Africa:
http://www.siciliani.com/upload/39.jpg

I am sick of all these Med-supremacist morons thinking that they can "prove" something by carefully selecting pictures of what they want a given ethnicity to look like (in this case, Racial Myths is trying to "prove" that Sicilians are indistiguishable from other Euro-Americans, and to a lesser degree other Europeans), which is of course ridiculous. He used to get pictures of Central Asians and Volga ethnics of off various mail-order bride sites in order to "prove" that Russians are Uralics. Fucking hilarious.

Ahhh, the old post an ugly person of the White nationality I hate to prove they are NW trick. Jesus, as the Jewish comedians say, get some new material :P

Diablo

Loki
Thursday, October 9th, 2003, 03:32 PM
acctually it depends what you mean with Ethnic Swede.. she is most likely from the north and therefor with saami admixture, she is an ethnic Swede but not a pure Germanic Swede off course.. I mean the Saamis have been here longer than Indo Europeans they say...

Our friend Ramses, who is himself of Sami heritage and living in Sweden, says that she doesnt look Sami at all... so she probably has some Chinese or Korean ancestry, or something similar.

Nordhammer
Thursday, October 9th, 2003, 06:33 PM
Italians are no racial danger, in any way.

I would disagree with that, but you know me. :D

You would marry a swarthy Italian? :)

Loki
Thursday, October 9th, 2003, 06:48 PM
I would disagree with that, but you know me. :D

Of course I am not for random intermixture between the several unique European types. I am all for the preservation of local types. The "Italians", or those meant by this designation by some, do not present a demographic threat, and for several reasons.

1)Italians are an ancient, stabilized European population. They have been there even before the Germanic tribes became known, and till this day, haven't been intermixing with them on any significant scale.

2)Italians also have low birthrates, and they are actually on the decrease. So they themselves are threatened with extinction.

3)They are not all of a sudden going to emigrate to northern Europe for some reason, mostly because Italy is a rich and cultured country. Actually, the opposite seems to be true. Germans and Scandinavians are moving to Italy (those who can afford it).


You would marry a swarthy Italian? :)

No, I am already married. ;)

Italia_Ariana
Thursday, October 9th, 2003, 07:50 PM
3)They are not all of a sudden going to emigrate to northern Europe for some reason, mostly because Italy is a rich and cultured country. Actually, the opposite seems to be true. Germans and Scandinavians are moving to Italy (those who can afford it).


Thank you Loki. :)

Correct. N. Europeans have nothing to worry from us Italians. Hell, many Italians who immigrated to Northern Europe 25 or so years ago, are now moving back to Italia (meanwhile, Arabs and Africans are taking the place of Italians in N. Europe). We love our land, and though we have a history of emigrating to solve our problems, we have learned from our mistakes (I hope!) and now we will stay and fight for Italy!

We are an economically powerful country that is getting more powerful every year. Under the new government of the PNF we will reach a new rennaissance.

And to the rich N. Europeans and Americans:

ITALY IS NOT FOR SALE!
ITALY FOR THE ITALIANS!
W IL BEL PAESE!

Nordhammer
Thursday, October 9th, 2003, 08:35 PM
Of course I am not for random intermixture between the several unique European types.

Then I would qualify that as being a "threat" on some level, to the preservation of individual families as well as to the whole in sufficient numbers.



I am all for the preservation of local types. The "Italians", or those meant by this designation by some, do not present a demographic threat, and for several reasons.

I see what you mean now, there is not enough Italian immigration into our lands to alter regional racial ranges as a whole.

However, there has been enough Italian and other Mediterranean immigration into America to affect the phenotypical average in say New York, which some have commented on by saying, "Why are New Yorkers so ugly?" Well, what they perceive is a significant Mediterranean component and less Nordish.

Prodigal Son
Thursday, October 9th, 2003, 09:22 PM
3)They are not all of a sudden going to emigrate to northern Europe for some reason, mostly because Italy is a rich and cultured country. Actually, the opposite seems to be true. Germans and Scandinavians are moving to Italy (those who can afford it).



Youre' thinking of Northern Italy, which is racially indistinguishable from surrounding Central European regions (Switzerland, Austria, etc...). Southern Italy, particularly Sicily, has the lowest per-capita income in the EU.

Prodigal Son
Thursday, October 9th, 2003, 09:28 PM
so dont carefully select then a pic of a supposedly Sicilian??

Its randomly selected, and he's probably the mos tlikely one of all the featured to be a Sicilian.


go abroad instead and see for yourself...

I've seen plenty of Sicilians in New York.


and please explain what about these Sicilians are so different from a Bavarian or Frenchman??

Frenchmen and Bavarians are genetically Central European, and Sicilians are geneticaly Middle-Eastern.


Scandinavia is mostly hallstatt Nordic

Scandinavia is not "mostly Hallstatt Nordic". Get your facts straight.


but in any other European country these gentlemen would not stick out a lot if all..

Most would stick out anywhere in Northern Europe and in many areas of Central Europe. In any case, whether a small, select group of Southern Italians would "stick out" in Northern Europe is irrelevant. This is not to say that Sicilians are not "White", however, Sicilians, as a population, are clearly, and strongly distinguishable from Northern and Central Europeans, including their Northern Italian compatriots, and no matter how much RM may want to wish this fact away, its not going to happen.

Tore
Thursday, October 9th, 2003, 11:23 PM
I dont know of any credentialed anthropoligist that recognizes a "European" racial type,(though its certainly very much a valid cultural identity) so the question is based on what appears to be a false premise, at least in the STRICTLY PHYSICAL RACIAL SENSE

I'll admit that the term only comes with a vague definition, and I merely used it to refer to those who can be distinguised from non-Caucasoids as well as Middle-Eastern and North-African Caucasoids.

What is "White" differs from what is "White" to me.

diabloblanco92
Friday, October 10th, 2003, 02:48 AM
I'll admit that the term only comes with a vague definition, and I merely used it to refer to those who can be distinguised from non-Caucasoids as well as Middle-Eastern and North-African Caucasoids.

What is "White" differs from what is "White" to me.

I appreciate your honesty in that regard, and I can understand an inevitable degree of disagreement over whether and to what extent racially compatible White populations (Compatable with White Euros) remain outside Europa in the Old World (Eg in the ME and Central Asia).
But outside of Gypsies and Sammi, I cannot understand why we cannot at the very least agree that all native Euros are White. No one is arguing that literally every gene among native Euros is White, however the virtual total absence of any phenotypic display of NW traits among Euros should give us confidence enough to take this step.
Frankly, almost invariably, the very few instances where we can actually see phenotypic evidence of NW ancestry seems confined to Northeastern Europeans/ Scandanavians (Eg Bjork). However these displays are rare enough that we may safely disregard them, at least on a collective level, though I would not fault anyone in here for avoiding such a person for sexual/breeding purposes.
The simple fact is that the discord and disunity and downright rancor this causes on all sides of the question is just not worth ferreting out a few tiny drops of NW blood in a White ocean.

Diablo

Tore
Friday, October 10th, 2003, 04:38 AM
But outside of Gypsies and Sammi, I cannot understand why we cannot at the very least agree that all native Euros are White.

I think we can all can all come to a consensus in that the Gypsies are a non-European people both racially and culturally.

The Saami are different.

They have more Mongoloid lineages (1.5-4%) than any other European group, so the admixture is present, and occasionally visible in the phenotype of those within the Saami community for that matter.

In my opinion, most Saami are "White", although a minority are not, and fall outside what is considered to be Europid.


however the virtual total absence of any phenotypic display of NW traits among Euros should give us confidence enough to take this step.

Again, here is where we disagree.

"White" and "non-White" are not so easily defined, in which the meanings of both vary from individual to individual.


Frankly, almost invariably, the very few instances where we can actually see phenotypic evidence of NW ancestry seems confined to Northeastern Europeans/ Scandanavians (Eg Bjork).

In the case of Mongoloid ancestry you may be correct.

Now, I don't what to get into the whole "what is White and what isn't" debate, although here are percentages of Non-Caucasoid ancestry (maternal M+L) among Europeans.

Bulgaria/Turkey (2.92%)
France/Italy (2.42%)
Spain/Portugal (1.99%)
Germany (1.14)
England/Wales (.47%)
Scandinavia (.47%)
Scotland (.11%)
Iceland (0%)
Ireland (0%)

The differences aren't great, although present nevertheless.

cosmocreator
Friday, October 10th, 2003, 06:58 AM
In the case of Mongoloid ancestry you may be correct.

Now, I don't what to get into the whole "what is White and what isn't" debate, although here are percentages of Non-Caucasoid ancestry (maternal M+L) among Europeans.

Bulgaria/Turkey (2.92%)
France/Italy (2.42%)
Spain/Portugal (1.99%)
Germany (1.14)
England/Wales (.47%)
Scandinavia (.47%)
Scotland (.11%)
Iceland (0%)
Ireland (0%)

The differences aren't great, although present nevertheless.


I'm surprised that Iceland is 0. It means people like Bjork are not mixed. I question that.

If anyone comes here starting who is or isn't white, I'll ban them. I don't even think the term should be used. It's an old term that had meaning 50 years ago and referred to Anglo-Saxons -- WASP.

Prodigal Son
Friday, October 10th, 2003, 07:02 AM
I'm surprised that Iceland is 0. It means people like Bjork are not mixed. I question that.


No, it only means that certain mitochondrial DNA markers are not present in a given sample of the population (which may or may not be representative). mtDNA markers are highly susceptible to genetic drift, sampling error and selection.

Nordhammer
Friday, October 10th, 2003, 07:02 AM
If anyone comes here starting who is or isn't white, I'll ban them.

Let me check the URL again... okay, I thought I was at Stormfront.

goidelicwarrior
Friday, October 10th, 2003, 09:30 AM
Our friend Ramses, who is himself of Sami heritage and living in Sweden, says that she doesnt look Sami at all... so she probably has some Chinese or Korean ancestry, or something similar. you may very well be right.. there where many Korean adoptions during the 60,s...

goidelicwarrior
Friday, October 10th, 2003, 09:37 AM
[QUOTE=Nordhammer]I would disagree with that, but you know me. :D

You would marry a swarthy Italian? :)[/QUOTE maybe you prefer this ?

goidelicwarrior
Friday, October 10th, 2003, 09:47 AM
Of course I am not for random intermixture between the several unique European types. I am all for the preservation of local types. The "Italians", or those meant by this designation by some, do not present a demographic threat, and for several reasons.

1)Italians are an ancient, stabilized European population. They have been there even before the Germanic tribes became known, and till this day, haven't been intermixing with them on any significant scale.

2)Italians also have low birthrates, and they are actually on the decrease. So they themselves are threatened with extinction.

3)They are not all of a sudden going to emigrate to northern Europe for some reason, mostly because Italy is a rich and cultured country. Actually, the opposite seems to be true. Germans and Scandinavians are moving to Italy (those who can afford it).



No, I am already married. ;) Well Loki.. I must say you got it right.. some disturbed people doesent understand that we, the inheritors of 3 000 years of recorded white/European history are becoming extinct in 100 years if the this jewish madnes is allowed to continue.. and constantly slur other European ethnicities ( I wonder what agenda they pursue ? ) I think that all honest people here are FOR the preservation of these diverse European peoples that through history are bonded and should unite infront of the third world onslaught directed by the jews in America....

goidelicwarrior
Friday, October 10th, 2003, 09:57 AM
Then I would qualify that as being a "threat" on some level, to the preservation of individual families as well as to the whole in sufficient numbers.



I see what you mean now, there is not enough Italian immigration into our lands to alter regional racial ranges as a whole.

However, there has been enough Italian and other Mediterranean immigration into America to affect the phenotypical average in say New York, which some have commented on by saying, "Why are New Yorkers so ugly?" Well, what they perceive is a significant Mediterranean component and less Nordish. As far as I have seen Italians are a very good looking people.. but you wouldent know since you dont travel outside mickey mouse country :D the ugliness is probably the fact that NY has 1 or 2 millions of JEWS.. and countless other non European mixtures... hell... its a chess pool of races lead by jews and terminators... my good .. whos next.. donald duck ? well have a nice weekend with Gangstarap, I will be going to the Opera, hopefully an Italian Opera.. :D

btw I found some intresting observations by one of your compatriots on the net.....

After 17 days, 3600 miles, and 10 countries later, we returned home, and the first thing we noticed was how many fat people there were in North America, compared to Europe. Even in the Bavarian Alps region, an area noted for jolly chubby germans, the % of fat people was not even close to the average americam town/city... At breakfast, we noticed that our fellow travellers, all european, never took more than they needed... a croissant, an egg, just enough till lunch...the portions at the restaurants were not as big, the meat cuts at the supermarkets were smaller...but still, everyone looked so healthy and slim!!! In fact, I think they quietly shoot ugly people in europe...everyone looked so damn good! In fact, the only fat people we saw were...well...american tourists pouring out of a bus, loud enough to be heard in Mosquito Neck, Iowa (a really really small place) (grin)

And that particular brand of creature seen frequenting bingo halls and drag races, the North American redneck, was nowhere to be seen...not a single shorth haired fat woman clad in white t-shirt, navy shorts, red plastic fingernails, white socks and sneakers...her mate clad in black t-shirt brandishing some sports team or a brand of beer, sweatpants, boots, with 6 days stubble, a greasy caterpillat cap...trailed by unkempt dirty urchins also clad in sports sweats, chubby, chubbier, and holy cow!...driving that standard issue redneck vehicle of a SUV, truck, or minivan...in fact, almost all the cars we saw in europe were normal cars...

Now some of you are already foaming at the mouth...ready to flame me... (grin) the point of this was in part humor, part truth, part generalizing...dont condemn until you too have spent the time and seen what we saw...granted it's not a perfect world in europe, but you have to admit, north americans are generally heavier and less likely to dress in good clothes all the time.

Also, the redneck family I described probably does not have the intelligence to get past the pornos and astrology web sites on the internet and burrow deep enough read this newgroup (uh-oh! there he goes again (grin) and their idea of a vacation is generally to watch a NASCAR race (heehee) oh, lighten up people!! (grin) I'm joking....when a comedian does it, you pay money to watch it...when someone does it here, everyone condemns....hee hee.

And what about the booze... available for purchase everywhere, yet not a single drunk teenager anywhere... imagine that... whereas in north america, teenage/college drinking is a fact of life... oh, we saw them, but they acted like mature adults, enjoying each others company, or the surrounding area, or the entertainment... didn't see the chubby college kids throwing their fists in the air, screaming "woo-hoooooooo" like we see here... interesting...

And since almost everyone we saw smoked, didn't encounter any hotels with 'no smoking rooms' or restaurants with 'no smoking' sections, and cigarette vending machines hung on every streetcorner in germany, none of this "have to be 18 to by smokes" crap that we have here, (non-smoker here), what do you think of North America's drive to ban smoking, whereas in europe, none of that was evident?

And did anyone notice that german toilets and restaurants smelled almost the same? (grin)

And how come I drove 3600 miles across 10 countries, and saw only one accident and no cops, my average speed of 75 - 90 mph on the highways, yet I see stupid fender benders here everyday, with dozens of revenue generating radar traps (oops, answered part of my question).

And how come I never saw any road rage...if someone was about to get cut off, they back away until the offending vehicle went back into their own lane...everyone drove on the right, except to pass...no left lane bandits...even though the average distance between cars in places like paris was 3 inches, no one was slamming on the brakes because the guy behind them was too close...great drivers!!

And how come my hotel rooms had XXX hardcore pornos on ch 21, 5 minute free preview, and no one complained about how the morality of children was ruined? And how come I was able to see breasts/nipples on things like soap and cel phone commercials, yet some north americans are still offended by Playboy magazine?

Yes, it was a completely different world...

BUT!!! I did miss the eyecontact and smile and hello I get from strangers in my small town...we found europeans rarely made eye contact... interesting...

Your thoughts on all these points folks?

goidelicwarrior
Friday, October 10th, 2003, 11:38 AM
Its randomly selected, and he's probably the mos tlikely one of all the featured to be a Sicilian.
YEAH SURE.. U TELLING ME U SELECTED ONE INDIVIDUAL RANDOMLY??

I've seen plenty of Sicilians in New York.
DO YOU KNOW THEM? HOW DO YOU KNOW THEY ARE ETNICALLY SICILIAN? DONT THEY HIRE PUERTO RICANS AS LABOUR? IN SCANDINAVIA 98% OF THE PIZZERIAS ARE OWNED BY MIDDLE EASTERNS...





Frenchmen and Bavarians are genetically Central European, and Sicilians are geneticaly Middle-Eastern. BULLSHIT... SICILIANS ARE BASICALLY EUROPEAN MED, SOME ALPINE AND SOME NORDIC AND THERE MAY ALSO BE SOME MIDDLE EASTERN BUT NO WAY THEY ARE TOTALLY MIDDLE EASTERN, ITS HISTORICALLY IMPOSSIBLE... DO YOU KNOW HISTORY ??? FIRST INHABITANTS WHERE OLD EUROPEANS THEH INDO EUROPEAN GREEKS THE INDO EUROPEAN ROMANS THE INDO EUROPEAN GERMANICS THEN MIXED RACE NORTH AFRICANS THEN THE GERMANIC NORMANS AGAIN.. THERE YOU GO....



Scandinavia is not "mostly Hallstatt Nordic". Get your facts straight.
HEY.. I LIVE IN SCANDINAVIA SO I SHOULD KNOW.. RIGHT, THE SWEDES ARE A VERY GOOD LOOKING PEOPLE... MOSTLY HALLSTAT NORDIC AND UP..


Most would stick out anywhere in Northern Europe and in many areas of Central Europe. OK.. PLEASE POINT OUT WHO OF THESE WOULD STICK OUT IN GERMANY OR FRANCE ? THEY ARE ALL ALPINE/MED/NORDIC, BY AMERICAN STANDARDS THEY ARE NORDIC...

POINT OUT ONE THAT WOULD STICK OUT IN A STREET IN THE USA (:o
http://digilander.libero.it/C4LiG0L4/SardiniaSicily.html

Loki
Friday, October 10th, 2003, 02:05 PM
And did anyone notice that german toilets and restaurants smelled almost the same? (grin)


Please people... we don't need comments like this on the race forum. This is a deviation from what we are trying to discuss. :)

Also, please no foul language or ALL CAPS posts...

I do appreciate it is a "hot topic".

Thanks.

goidelicwarrior
Friday, October 10th, 2003, 02:21 PM
Please people... we don't need comments like this on the race forum. This is a deviation from what we are trying to discuss. :)

Also, please no foul language or ALL CAPS posts...

I do appreciate it is a "hot topic".

Thanks. well.. Germany are knows for their clean toilets :D anyway its not my travel essay... just an Americans perspective... its been a nice week. have a good one ;)

Loki
Friday, October 10th, 2003, 02:26 PM
well.. Germany are knows for their clean toilets :D anyway its not my travel essay... just an Americans perspective... its been a nice week. have a good one ;)

You going now? ;) Okay have a nice weekend.

Loki
Friday, October 10th, 2003, 02:38 PM
Please people... we don't need comments like this on the race forum. This is a deviation from what we are trying to discuss. :)



Well I do owe you an apology regarding the "German toilets" remark.. I have never been to a German toilet myself, so I did not think your comment was indeed a benevolent compliment. :shrug

goidelicwarrior
Friday, October 10th, 2003, 03:27 PM
You going now? ;) Okay have a nice weekend. u2.. and be carelful in the multiculti jungle... btw did you post in the thread where we all ( almost ) have our pics ? I just did...

Loki
Friday, October 10th, 2003, 03:41 PM
u2.. and be carelful in the multiculti jungle... btw did you post in the thread where we all ( almost ) have our pics ? I just did...

Thanks...

Yes I just saw your picture. Maybe you have a larger one for classification? If that is you, then you seem Nordish, perhaps reminiscent of Celtic or Germanic (Gothic) elements.

Regards.

Necronomicom
Saturday, October 11th, 2003, 07:52 AM
the page clearly states:

NOTE: Most of the images on the following pages come from a website devoted to Sicilian people, life and culture. However, since anyone can ultimately submit a photo of any kind, with no apparent screening process in place, there's no way to verify that everyone depicted is of Sicilian ancestry. Though it's safe to assume that the majority of them are, one individual featured in the site's "Top 10" does have an Arabic name. There could easily be a few more such people among the anonymous photos.

here are some more pictures of real Sicilians (although very few are non-european):
http://digilander.libero.it/C4LiG0L4/Palermo.html

Med
Saturday, October 11th, 2003, 09:59 AM
"The skin color [of Sicilians] is as a rule dark; over 50 per cent of unexposed shades are definitely light brown or olive-colored, while the exposed skin often tans to a distinctive reddish-brown. "
Source (http://www.fikas.no/~sprocket/snpa/chapter-XII7.htm)

Coon uses a number of terms to describe different degrees of dark skin that are within the European continuum (light brown, brunet, olive, swarthy, etc). And they're by no means confined to descriptions of Southern Europeans:


"36 per cent of Russians are brunet in total complexion type."

"Most [Volhynians] have the expected white skin, ranging on the inner arm from von Luschan #7-12, while roughly one-eighth are darker, with brunet-white or light brown shades (von L. #13-16)."

"The Serbs are darker in pigmentation than either the Slovenes or the Croatians.... The skin is brunet-white or light-brown in at least a third of the total."

"the skin color is a brunet-white in over 50 per cent. These people form one of the most brunet populations in Germany."

"There is, in all the Tyrol, a strong minority of brunet or swarthy skin color, which rises to 50 per cent among the Ladiner."

Incidentally, Coon finds Northern Italians to be almost identical to Southern Italians in skin tone:


"The skin color of the face is about equally divided between light brown and pinkish-white."

Med
Saturday, October 11th, 2003, 10:06 AM
In the above quote on Volhynians, Coon equates light brown skin with #16 on the von Luschan scale. See for yourself what that looks like:

http://www.unifi.it/unifi/msn/antrop/route/stru0004.jpg

Not exactly what you had in mind, is it?

Med
Saturday, October 11th, 2003, 10:14 AM
Southern Italy, particularly Sicily, has the lowest per-capita income in the EU.

There are simple, non-Kempian reasons for that. But the fact is that Southern Italy's economy is coming along just fine (much better than any Slavic country's). Despite historical setbacks, it's larger and more vital than anyone thinks, according to the most recent surveys:

http://www.network54.com/Hide/Forum/thread?forumid=259639&messageid=1063198586

Med
Saturday, October 11th, 2003, 10:42 AM
Autosomal DNA is more reliable than single loci like mtDNA and Y-chromosomes. And it shows that...

1) Southern Europeans all cluster tightly together and with Central Europeans, being sharply differentiated from North Africans and Middle Easterners:

http://www.legioneuropa.org/Debate/seabarr.htm

2) Sicilians specifically are unrelated to North Africans, grouping instead with other Italians and Europeans:

http://www.legioneuropa.org/Debate/sicigen.htm

Southern Europeans don't claim (or want) to look Northern European. (They're not Slavs after all). A few look that way, and a few look Middle Eastern. But the majority look distinctly Southern European, which is exactly what they are. So stop obsessing over them, and we won't have to suffer through all these pointless threads. Or, if you really can't help yourself, at least try to make it a healthy obsession. Random samples of untanned, verified ethnic Southern Italians were posted in the thread below for just such purposes:

http://www.forums.skadi.net/showthread.php?t=4341

anfernee
Saturday, October 11th, 2003, 11:19 AM
In the above quote on Volhynians, Coon equates light brown skin with #16 on the von Luschan scale. See for yourself what that looks like:

http://www.unifi.it/unifi/msn/antrop/route/stru0004.jpg

Not exactly what you had in mind, is it?
wow nice chart there! i was always wondering why coon said so high of a light brown

Prodigal Son
Saturday, October 11th, 2003, 02:33 PM
There are simple, non-Kempian reasons for that. But the fact is that Southern Italy's economy is coming along just fine (much better than any Slavic country's).

Of course. Most Slavic countries don't rely on EU aid for subsistence.

Oh, and yeah, Hi, Racial Myths.

Tore
Saturday, October 11th, 2003, 07:06 PM
http://www.legioneuropa.org/Debate/sicigen.htm

"A further interesting aspect which our work has shown is the affinity of the Sicilian and southern Italian populations to Greece (5). This similarity already explained by Piazza (6) is owed to the introduction of Greek genes into southern Italy during the Greek colonisation."

However, upon examination of Greeks...

http://www.journals.uchicago.edu/AJHG/journal/issues/v71n5/024085/024085.html

" The analysis for eastern Mediterranean Europe indicated a very high frequency (20%) of recent gene flow, as compared with only 10% Neolithic input."

http://www.legioneuropa.org/Debate/seabarr.htm

"Thus, in response to the Nordicists who keep on playing on a false Southern European/North African "Mediterranean racial" equivalence (4), we can say, backed up by objective evidence:"

Frequencies of North African Hg 21 are typically found at 10-20% in Southern Europe.

It doesn't take a genius to infer that Southerns Europeans will remain closer to one another than to North Africans because of this.

However, the foreign lineages remain.


1) Southern Europeans all cluster tightly together and with Central Europeans, being sharply differentiated from North Africans and Middle Easterners:

It is a shame that Cavelli-Sforza has different findings.

goidelicwarrior
Monday, October 13th, 2003, 10:21 AM
Thanks...

Yes I just saw your picture. Maybe you have a larger one for classification? If that is you, then you seem Nordish, perhaps reminiscent of Celtic or Germanic (Gothic) elements.

Regards. the racial composition of Galicia, Asturias, Cantabria are as follows... Pre European farmers ( Old European ) megalith culture, Celtic Goidelic and Brythonic settlements ( this was by far the the most massive, lending their name and culture to the area wich still lives and finally Schwabian and Vandal (Germanic) settlements estimated at 30 000, founders of the first European kingdom Ad 409 after the Romans... worth noting: additional Celtic settlements
occured around 400 Ad when tousands of Britons left in the turmoil of the Anglo saxon take over of Britain, next time its was an unknows number of Irish who took refuge to Galicia during the English persecutions durning the 1600... I dont have any larger pic.. other though.. ;)

Med
Tuesday, October 14th, 2003, 01:02 PM
However, upon examination of Greeks...

As I said, mtDNA and Y-chromosomes are less reliable than autosomes. In a few years they'll be totally obsolete.


It doesn't take a genius to infer that Southerns Europeans will remain closer to one another than to North Africans because of this.

Autosomes group Southern Europeans not only with one another, but also with the French and Basques (the latter of which have no hg21) to form a cluster that's sharply differentiated from North Africans. And anyway, even the Dutch have 8% hg21. Are you sure you want to consider it foreign?


It is a shame that Cavelli-Sforza has different findings.

What the hell is that? It corresponds to nothing. Britons related to Lapps? Italians related to Tibetans? Huh? If anything, it shows the British to be closer to Near Easterners and Berbers than Italians are. I would really like to know what that plot is showing, and what you think you're proving with it. This is what Cavalli-Sforza's "42 world populations" plot looks like:

http://sophistikatedkids.com/turkic/60%20Genetics/Cavalli-SforzaEn_files/image001.gif

Loki
Tuesday, October 14th, 2003, 01:54 PM
Autosomes group Southern Europeans not only with one another, but also with the French and Basques (the latter of which have no hg21) to form a cluster that's sharply differentiated from North Africans.


Slightly off-topic, but do you perhaps have any links/sources about autosomal comparisons between all (or some) European populations? I would be interested to have a look at it.

Tore
Wednesday, October 15th, 2003, 04:00 AM
As I said, mtDNA and Y-chromosomes are less reliable than autosomes. In a few years they'll be totally obsolete.

This is what, your opinion? :D


Autosomes group Southern Europeans not only with one another, but also with the French and Basques (the latter of which have no hg21) to form a cluster that's sharply differentiated from North Africans. And anyway, even the Dutch have 8% hg21. Are you sure you want to consider it foreign?

As I have said, some Hg 9/21 lineages are strictly Neolithic.

Other lineages are more recent.


What the hell is that? It corresponds to nothing. Britons related to Lapps? Italians related to Tibetans? Huh? If anything, it shows the British to be closer to Near Easterners and Berbers than Italians are. I would really like to know what that plot is showing, and what you think you're proving with it. This is what Cavalli-Sforza's "42 world populations" plot looks like:

Yep, OK.

Let's disregard it completely based on your disapproval.

After all, you're the expert here. :eyes



It shows the relative clustering of European, with Mediterraneans on the periphery.

I personally don't see how it could be incorrect, as you yourself have stated autosomal DNA as being more accurrate than other forms of genetic testing.

Evolved
Wednesday, October 15th, 2003, 04:57 AM
http://www.forums.skadi.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=3696

I copied the chart from "Genes, Peoples and Languages" exactly as it is shown in the book (scanning the page would have made a bad copy of the chart). The data does look a bit weird in spots, but I swear I was not on drugs when I copied it. :)

I wondered why Ainu and Iranian would be near, why Greeks are close to Mongol-Tungus, why Sardinians are together with Oceanic and Southeast Asians...

The Blond Beast
Wednesday, October 15th, 2003, 06:15 AM
The prairie provinces have a significant (21%) percentage of those who are part/wholly Ukrainian in ancestry.

Aside from that, British Isles ancestry seems to predominate, at least where I live (Alberta).

There are a fair number of Germans here in addition, although nowhere near the amount found in Ontario. Some towns/cities
have had their once German names Anglicized as a result of the two World Wars. Kitchener (Berlin) is one that comes to mind.

Many Newfoundlanders (particularly in Ft.McMurray) work abroad here, taking advantage of our industry boom. Jobs are hard to come by in Atlantic Canada, due to the collapse of the Fishing/Cod industry.

One finds that such Newfoundlander's are nearly exlusively of Irish extraction.


Vegreville, Canada's "Most Racist Community." One has to marvel at that giant Ukrainian egg!

Med
Wednesday, October 15th, 2003, 01:35 PM
This is what, your opinion? :D

Laugh it up. They say ignorance is bliss.


Earlier we emphasized the importance of using a large number of loci in the study of human evolution. This is because (a) the interpopulational genetic variation is very small compared with intrapopulational variation and (b) the evolution of a single gene (or mtDNA) is subject to large stochastic errors (Nei and Livshits 1989; Livshits and Nei 1990). In this study, using gene frequency data for 29 genetic loci, we could reconstruct an evolutionary history of human populations that seems likely to be less controversial and more enduring than some current alternatives. (Nei and Roychoudhury 1993)


As I have said, some Hg 9/21 lineages are strictly Neolithic. Other lineages are more recent.

Hg25.2 is the recent North African lineage. It's found at very low frequencies in Southern Europe (~3%). And all research dates hg9 in Europe to the Neolithic (though it's possible that a tiny percentage is recent, as with hg21). Both of these findings are confirmed by autosomal analysis.


I personally don't see how it could be incorrect, as you yourself have stated autosomal DNA as being more accurrate than other forms of genetic testing.

Of course the plot is not incorrect, but your interpretation of it obviously is. Clearly, this diagram is indicating something entirely different. And you shot yourself in the foot a second time because it places the British closer to North Africans and Middle Easterners than Southern Europeans are. But hey, believe whatever you want.

Nihilist
Wednesday, October 15th, 2003, 01:46 PM
I think arguements like this epitomizes whats wrong with nationalism, or more precisely white nationalism today....so what if they have some arabic blood in them? if one believes in nationalism, they believe in their people, country and culture. The fact that some other far off european country may have some admixture within it is irrelevant to your countries necessities. We should focus on promoting what we respect about our heritage, instead of projecting our insecurities/negativity unto others; this is exactly the kind of behavior that the left-wing want us to thrive on, fragmentation and irrational hatred. We cannot generate a working political/cultural unit upon this alone.

cosmocreator
Wednesday, October 15th, 2003, 06:44 PM
I think arguements like this epitomizes whats wrong with nationalism, or more precisely white nationalism today....


We are not white nationalist here. If that's what you're looking for go to SF.

Nihilist
Wednesday, October 15th, 2003, 07:11 PM
We are not white nationalist here. If that's what you're looking for go to SF.

I never specified that, I was just making a broad generalization regarding the deficiencies of WN.

The fact that this place is chiefly comprised of well informed racialists rather than ignorant bigots (SF), is what provoked my rebuke; I do not like it when people stoop to that (their) level.

galvez
Friday, November 21st, 2003, 12:27 AM
This is what, your opinion? :D

This is the view of biological scientists -- autosomal tests are more reliable than mtDNA or Y-chromosome tests.

Read some of Mike Rienzi's material when you have some free time. He is one of the few racialists with a genuine scientific background.

Razmig
Friday, January 2nd, 2004, 11:58 PM
Every single Sicilian is just as Europid as a Scandinavian! Sicilians are the defenders of Europe!

xakep
Sunday, January 4th, 2004, 12:13 PM
We are not white nationalist here. If that's what you're looking for go to SF.

What are we then ?

Mac Seafraidh
Sunday, January 4th, 2004, 01:06 PM
I am still in disbelief that Sicilians have Negroid blood in them because Northern Italy had Germanic tribes and Southern Italy had predominantly Romans who are typically darker people anyway, but it is not from negroid mixture. Romans are genetically dark.People who say Sicilians/Greeks have black blood are basically saying that the negroid race was the first types of volks. I believe all races were created at the same time for some odd reason. I do not think there was a first or what not.

Post scriptum,
My post sounds kinda retarded and I have nothing to back me up really except the knowlege of my observations.

zenos316
Sunday, January 4th, 2004, 03:19 PM
It is from negroid admixture get over it.

Its clearly evident in the faces and behavior of these Silician "thugs".

Agrippa
Monday, January 5th, 2004, 12:00 AM
The most are European Europids, the rest are European Europids with Orientalid and Armenoid admixture or even almost pure Orientalids.
Interestingly, if I would see some of this mixed in Austria, I would guess they are Turkish, Armenian or Jewish people.

But the majority is definetely phaenotypically pure European.

There is no definite Negrid admixture in this Sicilians. If there is some, the percentage must be quite low.

Agrippa
Monday, January 5th, 2004, 02:07 AM
Well, 1-6 percent Negrid admixture seems something possible to me.

To say the Sicilians are no Europeans because of the Saracens or Slaves is like saying they are Nordic/Alpines because of the Romans and Normans...

Both is present but the majority is (Gracile-) Mediterranid.

Razmig
Monday, January 5th, 2004, 03:16 AM
I think the darkening of hair and skin is deceiving. If infact the reason why they do have dark pigmentation is foreign admixture, I don't think it makes them any less Italian, since Nords can seemingly have mongoloid and get away with it. If these same exact faces had blonde hair and blue eyes, the issue of Negroid ancestry would never be brought up. Their facial characteristics are typically EUROPEAN, and not Negroid/Mongoloid.

Tore
Monday, January 5th, 2004, 03:47 AM
In a sample of 465 Sicilians from all over the island, 10 mtDNA haplogroup M sequences of presumable proto-Asian origin were detected, while only 3 sub-Saharan L sequences were found, bringing the total non-Caucasoid maternal admixture in Sicily to 2.8%, with just 0.65% of this being Negroid (Note that Richards et al. 1998 found white Britons to have 1% black mtDNA). To date, no sub-Saharan Y-chromosomes have been discovered in Sicily.

(Romano et al., Ann Hum Genet, 2003)

This is somewhat misleading.

This particular study only presented data for the sub-Saharan haplogroups L1 and L2, while leaving out the L3 haplogroup, which is more frequent than L1/L2 in other European nations with confirmed Negroid admixture (i.e. Portugal). Instead, an "other" category was presented, which basically included all the non-European haplogroups (and presumably some L3 sequences in addition). All Sicilian regions included in the study contained haplogroups included in the "other" category, with the percentages ranging from 3.5% to 12.5%.

The study can be seen here:
http://www.blackwell-synergy.com/servlet/useragent?func=login (access is required)

Here is an exerpt I found to be interesting:

"The maximum likelihood tree obtained by adding three samples from North-Africa (Algeria and Egypt) and the Middle East (Turkey) provides further information: 54% of times Castellammare, Butera and Sciacca are associated with the Middle East sample, while the remaining samples (Troina, Caccamo, Piazza Armerina and Ragusa) are associated with the two samples from North-Africa."

galvez
Monday, January 5th, 2004, 03:51 AM
I think the darkening of hair and skin is deceiving. If infact the reason why they do have dark pigmentation is foreign admixture, I don't think it makes them any less Italian, since Nords can seemingly have mongoloid and get away with it. If these same exact faces had blonde hair and blue eyes, the issue of Negroid ancestry would never be brought up. Their facial characteristics are typically EUROPEAN, and not Negroid/Mongoloid.

I happen to have photos of Salvador Dalí, and on one of them he looks "Arabic" while on another he looks Southern European. Mediterraneans are generally swarthier and with fuller lips than Nordics and this is hard for some people to fathom.

Yes, on some photos (given that photos aren't always accurate) Meds can easily look like Middle Easterners or North African Berbers. On the other hand, some photos can make some Northern Europeans look like they may have Negroid ancestry (Bill White being an example -- based on the photo ARA took of him by surprise). That's just the nature of photos and people should understand their limitations.

Dienekes_Pontikos
Monday, January 5th, 2004, 03:58 AM
This is somewhat misleading.
Instead, an "other" category was presented, which basically included all the non-European haplogroups (and presumably some L3 sequences in addition).

That is inaccurate. The "other" category did not include just "non-European" haplogroups. Only 8 of the Caucasoid haplogroups were typed.

Tore
Monday, January 5th, 2004, 04:06 AM
That is inaccurate. The "other" category did not include just "non-European" haplogroups. Only 8 of the Caucasoid haplogroups were typed.

I stand corrected.

The Caucasoid haplogroup W was not present , therefore it may have partially constituted the "other" category, although it does occur in low frequencies among European populations (1-3% typically).

Nordhammer
Monday, January 5th, 2004, 04:51 AM
Italian Genetics

(Note that Richards et al. 1998 found white Britons to have 1% black mtDNA).

I like how he gives quotes for pro-Southern European stances, but in regards to Northern Europeans all we get is his statement. LOL He has no agenda, sure, he's totally objective. ;)

I believe Richards stated there is a total 1% Mongoloid&Negroid DNA, not Negroid, among Britons. If anyone has the quote from the study handy, feel free to let us know the facts.

Nordhammer
Monday, January 5th, 2004, 05:10 AM
On the other hand, some photos can make some Northern Europeans look like they may have Negroid ancestry (Bill White being an example -- based on the photo ARA took of him by surprise).

LOL A certain angle just makes anyone look Negroid huh? Come on...

I don't see it. What is Negroid here?

http://onepeoplesproject.com/images/bill_white.jpg

http://www.jdl-ny.org/white.jpg

Dienekes_Pontikos
Monday, January 5th, 2004, 05:19 AM
I stand corrected.


Incorrect. Neither haplogroup N, nor R, nor pre-HV were typed. Also, compare with mtDNA of "white-Americans" where 9 Haplogroups were typed with 8.2% were "other".

http://www.dienekes.com/blog/archives/000146.html

Dienekes_Pontikos
Monday, January 5th, 2004, 05:23 AM
Incorrect. Neither haplogroup N, nor R, nor pre-HV were typed.

E.g., two Cro-Magnon skeletons of UP date from S. Italy belonged to HV/pre-HV and N* respectively.

http://www.dienekes.com/blog/archives/000200.html

Tore
Monday, January 5th, 2004, 11:35 PM
Neither haplogroup N, nor R,

Of which neither are common in Europe (eg. N is a Near-Eastern haplogroup).


nor pre-HV were typed.

Are you sure it wasn't included in the 'H' grouping?

Some of the frequencies appear rather high (i.e. 61.9% of the haplogroups tested in Troina belonged to 'H' according to the study)....

Ernst_Juenger
Thursday, March 1st, 2007, 10:47 PM
Why are some of the "Nordists" trying to split the white race? As someone stated in another thread, sub-saharan Africans ("Blacks") don't do that. I know many Sicilians and most of them have brown hair and a normal (European)) skin color. It's just a stupid myth. Most of them are white, and those who are not are Northern African immigrants. There are also plenty of blonde, blue-eyed Sicilianus - so stop that bullshit ffs. Whites have to unite.

-from Germany