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View Full Version : Renaming Coon's Trønder



Edwin
Tuesday, September 13th, 2005, 04:31 PM
I've always thought the name both localizes and marginalizes this widespread and central Germanic type. If we can at this forum redefine the Anglo-Saxon, as Glenlivet has successfully done, then we should be able to rename the Trønder.

Norsk is the adjective meaning Norwegian in Old Icelandic, which is close enough to Norse to force the association. This would set it as high as the Anglo-Saxon, which has long benefitted from its cultural association. It is also in the native language of the type, as is Anglo-Saxon in its own.

"She approaches the Norsk type."

"You look rather Norsk to me."

Some might be tempted to use Norskr instead, but that would often be incorrect, as -r is masculine singular.

Glenlivet
Tuesday, September 13th, 2005, 05:01 PM
Trönder was also called Sveatyp (coined by Isidor Flodström) which is named after the region Svealand, south of Norrland and north of Götaland.

Why should we rename Trönder when Göta is also named after a region, Götaland.

The land of the Angles and Saxons fall under two folk stocks of Lundman, the West Elbe where the Falid predominate, and the East Danish sub-stock, which is part of the greater Southwest Scandinavian (or Skagerack-) stock where the predominanting type is Göta. All of these stocks have very low-skulled populations. The East Danish sub-stock differ from the main one in a few traits, it is somewhat darker, also hair colour, and more brachycephal and shorter-statured, also in relation to BLI. Lundman (in his book Baltoskandia) wrote that the West Elbe (also called Fälish) folk stock is close to A (SVN on the map below), and may possibly be merged with that.

West Elbe is "W" in Lundman's very schematic map over the folk stocks of the Nordic countries.

http://x4.putfile.com/9/25511143117.jpg (http://www.putfile.com)

There are better, more detailed maps in his later works, which I can scan some day.

East of Holstein we have the East Elbe folk stock (which is also called South Baltic or abbreviated as SB), which in south goes to Oberlausitz. BLI is absolutely and relatively to stature not insignificantly higher than the West Elbe (W) stock. HLI and blood allele q are low, although higher than the West Elbe (W). SB is partly close to the West Finnish (VF) but is less high-skulled, somewhat darker and less East-Baltid (Lundman speculated if it is Tavast type), but more of various central and somewhat East-European racial elements.

If we go by the land of Anglo-Saxons, and Lundman's folk stocks, they may have brought a sub-stock of Göta, Falid and even some East-Baltid, and maybe even a limited amount of Litoroid (from Denmark and Frisians) to eastern England. The Schleswig-Holstein sub-stock is tall-statured and large, light, slightly sub-brachycephalic (but in relation to stature, somewhat shorter-skulled than other parts of West Elbe).

Trönder (T on the map) is the predominating type in the Trönder folk stock. The limited circle in the stock stands for the Inner Scandinavian (or Nordic) folk stock (IN), where there is a Västmanland "racial island". The small filled circles are where Tydal predominates.

Edwin
Tuesday, September 13th, 2005, 10:45 PM
Why should we rename Trönder when Göta is also named after a region, Götaland.

For a number of reasons:

Names were terribly important to our Germanic ancestors, much more than they were to others.

Like the Anglo-Saxon, the Norsk is a composite, and therefore shows great variation. It's composite nature sets it between the Cro-Magnid and the Nordid.

It was the most frequent type found among the Norwegian vikings. Widespread, it is still identified with those of Norwegian descent in the British Isles, in America, and naturally Iceland.

It was certainly not the only Norsk type, but neither was the Anglo-Saxon the only Anglo-Saxon. Both had small numbers of relatively pure Cro-Magnids concentrated in the comitatus, but nearly everyone already knows that.

The Norsk is one of the five truly Germanic types:

A. HG

1. Falian, etc.

2. Borreby

B. Neo

1. Anglo-Saxon (actual)

2. Norsk (On second thought, we could just call it Norse)

3. Teuto-Nordid (Coon's Anglo-Saxon, which could take back the Hallstatt title if it wanted)


*The Göta type, and Nordids in general, don't really count, as their only function so far has been to reduce the various Cro-Magnids; since the Nordid has no complex character of its own, those types resulting from the admixture are still arguably Cro-Magnid, though newly bred for later times.

The Atlantids are a part of a different dynamic, so I'll withhold judgement on them, as well as on the East Nordids, and for the same reason, besides the fact that they're not Germanic.

RedJack
Tuesday, September 13th, 2005, 11:19 PM
Hmmmm, Norse type. I like it. :thumbup

Drake
Wednesday, September 14th, 2005, 03:03 PM
I personally don't like the idea of renaming it. The fact that it's a regional name makes it easily identifiable.

The limited circle in the stock stands for the Inner Scandinavian (or Nordic) folk stock (IN)
It's interesting how the (IN) mark is exactly over Östersund.

Willigut
Wednesday, September 14th, 2005, 11:41 PM
Glenlivet:


Trönder (T on the map) is the predominating type in the Trönder folk stock. The limited circle in the stock stands for the Inner Scandinavian (or Nordic) folk stock (IN), where there is a Västmanland "racial island". The small filled circles are where Tydal predominates.


If we take a look on this map from the same work, what racial elements are mix with Trönder FS, along the northern Norwegian coast?

http://forums.skadi.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=39424&stc=1&d=1126737551

Glenlivet
Wednesday, September 14th, 2005, 11:49 PM
North where? Can you please be more specific?

I do not know about "mix", but NL in NE Norway stand for the North Lapp folk stock ("folkstock" or abbreviated as FS). Lundman wrote they were previously predominantly of North Lapp stock, but now with at least as strong, rather stronger element of South Lapp race (see SL).


Glenlivet:
If we take a look on this map from the same work, what racial elements are mix with Trönder FS, along the northern Norwegian coast?

Willigut
Thursday, September 15th, 2005, 12:38 AM
North where? Can you please be more specific?

I do not know about "mix", but NL in NE Norway stand for the North Lapp folk stock ("folkstock" or abbreviated as FS). Lundman wrote they were previously predominantly of North Lapp stock, but now with at least as strong, rather strong element of South Lapp race (see SL).

I mean Nordland and Troms counties are marked with 'T' on Lundman's map; because Trönder Folk Stock is predominant type on this array. On "Nordic frequency map" the same counties are considerable 'less' Nordic than Nord and Sør Trøndelag, Jämtland, Västernorland and Gävleborg, also in 'T' zone. So, there must be some non-Nordic admixture in combination with Trönder type, in northern Norway; I think!?

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