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Aeternitas
Monday, August 22nd, 2005, 05:53 PM
The former President of Italy, Francesco Cossiga, currently on holidays in South Tyrol, said in an interview, published by the province’s most popular weekly magazine ‘ff’ last week, that South Tyroleans were Germans but not Austrians.
“Now I will tell you something that you South Tyroleans won’t like- South Tyroleans are Germans- Hitler was right in this regard”, Cossiga is quoted to have said.

Cossiga also expressed the opinion that the idea of an Austrian nation was invented by Austrian fascists such as Engelbert Dollfuss - Austrian chancellor during the inter war period and assassinated by Nazis in 1934. “Is there anything like Austrian literature or music?” He asked. Cossiga concluded that “Austrians are Germans” and “South Tyroleans are therefore Germans as well”.Full article (http://www.eurolang.net/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=2429&Itemid=1&lang=fr)

Taras Bulba
Monday, August 22nd, 2005, 06:15 PM
The former President of Italy, Francesco Cossiga, currently on holidays in South Tyrol, said in an interview, published by the province’s most popular weekly magazine ‘ff’ last week, that South Tyroleans were Germans but not Austrians.

That's really a stupid assertion to make. Tyroleans have a long been linked to Austria. I really only have to mention Andreas Hoffa, and how he lead a pro-Austrian rebellion against Napoleon in the 1800's.



Cossiga also expressed the opinion that the idea of an Austrian nation was invented by Austrian fascists such as Engelbert Dollfuss - Austrian chancellor during the inter war period and assassinated by Nazis in 1934. Dollfuss and his regime based the Austrian identity on a Germanic ethnic base. The Austrian identity to Dollfuss was built on the Catholic faith and the heritage of the Hasburg Empire(btw there were pan-Germanists who favoured a Germany united under the Hasburbs as opposed to under Prussia), as opposed to the Protestantism and anti-Catholicism of the Germany founded by Bismarck. Dollfuss never argued there was an ethnic difference between Germans and Austrians.



“Is there anything like Austrian literature or music?” He asked.Well Vienna was once the center of classical music development, so yes you could say there is Austrian literature and music. How about Mozart?



Cossiga concluded that “Austrians are Germans”Well I have a funny story about making this exact same assertion to a girl from Vienna :P ;)

Zyklop
Monday, August 22nd, 2005, 06:20 PM
That's really a stupid assertion to make.
Actually, that´s the only true viewpoint.

Tyroleans have a long been linked to Austria. I really only have to mention Andreas Hoffa,
Who? Better have another look in the history book.

Taras Bulba
Monday, August 22nd, 2005, 06:22 PM
Actually, that´s the only true viewpoint.

IMO it's a simplistic viewpoint.



Who? Better have another look in the history book.

Sorry, I meant Andreas Hofer. My mistake. :P

Aeternitas
Monday, August 22nd, 2005, 06:35 PM
Austrians are Germans.

Weg
Monday, August 22nd, 2005, 10:33 PM
Dollfuss and his regime based the Austrian identity on a Germanic ethnic base. The Austrian identity to Dollfuss was built on the Catholic faith and the heritage of the Hasburg Empire(btw there were pan-Germanists who favoured a Germany united under the Hasburbs as opposed to under Prussia), as opposed to the Protestantism and anti-Catholicism of the Germany founded by Bismarck. Dollfuss never argued there was an ethnic difference between Germans and Austrians.


Was the faith really one his arguments? That was a silly one. It's not like if Germany counted a majority of Protestants. There are lots of Catholics in Germany as well.


Well Vienna was once the center of classical music development, so yes you could say there is Austrian literature and music. How about Mozart?


You could as well try to explain that Wallons are not French but "A same blood belongs to a same empire".

Taras Bulba
Wednesday, August 24th, 2005, 07:12 PM
Austrians are Germans.

I never said otherwise per se. At the very most, if Austria is a seperate nation, it's still a Germanic nation. Their Germanic heritage is not exactly the same as the one presented by Prussia, so to simply assert they're not Austrians but Germans is rather simplistic IMO.


Was the faith really one his arguments?

Yes the Catholic faith formed a great part of Dollfuss' political ideology.



That was a silly one. It's not like if Germany counted a majority of Protestants. There are lots of Catholics in Germany as well.But they were brought under the leadership of Prussia, which many Austrians considered an upstart to the true German heritage represented by Austria(since the Hasburg Empire had roots in Charlamenge's empire).




You could as well try to explain that Wallons are not French but "A same blood belongs to a same empire".That's a different matter.

Aragorn
Tuesday, September 27th, 2005, 11:06 PM
Austrians are Germans.


Well said:thumbup :thumbup . Austrians or better to say; Ostmark-Germans:P are as German as are the Elsasser, Thuringians or mecklenburgers. It is indeed an ridicolous action to declare that the German-speaking South-Tyrolians are Italians. There is nothing Italian about them; not their names, not their custums, not their tradition food dishes, not even their attitude. Certainly the Italians will be afraid that some day, wise and brave South-Tyrolians will call for unificazion with Austria. That might be the beginning of the downfall of Italy. Other ethnic or separadistic groups could ask for independence or an larger autonomy: Padanians, Sardinians, Friulians, Aosta...

Baphomet
Sunday, October 2nd, 2005, 04:38 PM
South-Tyroleans have German blood inside...
Austrians are Germans... they were always Germans and will always be Germans!

soffio_di_wotan
Tuesday, August 29th, 2006, 03:24 PM
Austrians are Germans.

Yes! I'm agree. But i would like add what not only Sud Tyrol is side of Osterreich but the Friaul Region too. Desafortunately it's forgot from many people.

Friaul zum Osterreich ! :thumbup

About Germans questions i have readed some original Ahnenerbe's and Gestapo's documents and Hans Gunther's original book where was wrote about germanisch Rasse and not white race.

:thumbup

Peoples Observer
Friday, December 15th, 2006, 03:36 AM
Austrians are racially, culturally and linguistially German and very closely related to the Bavarians and Swabians of southern Germany. What divides them is a political border.

On the subject of the South Tirol those inhabitants are primarily German-speaking with many Italians living there as well. After W.W.1 this region was awarded to Italy and after Mussolini came to power he "Italianized" the area with large numbers of Italians from different regions of Italy in his effort to consolidate his northern border. This was deeply unpopular with the German-speaking residents who were forced to learn Italian in their schools and defer to Italian customs and laws. After the formal alliance between Fascist Italy and Nazi Germany many Tyrolean National Socialists complained to the highest levels of the N.S.D.A.P. Remarkably Hitler chose not to intervene on the side of the South Tiroleans and backed-up Mussolini's claim to the area. The Tiroleans were given the option of staying in South Tirol and becoming Italianized citizens or moving to the Third Reich for resettlement. This the only case of the N.S.D.A.P. not defending a German minority in a foreign land who were being oppressed to benefit a strategic alliance with an ally. As a result many South Tyroleans became disallusioned with National Socialism and began a low-level insurgency against the Italian government which persisted even after W.W.2.

Nordgau
Sunday, December 24th, 2006, 02:39 PM
That's really a stupid assertion to make. Tyroleans have a long been linked to Austria.


Well Vienna was once the center of classical music development, so yes you could say there is Austrian literature and music. How about Mozart?


The "Austrianness" Cossiga was denying the national and cultural existence of has been one claimed and conceptualised as a quality opposing to Germandom and which is official ideology of today's "Republic of Austria". South Tyrol never has been part of this Austrianness because it was invented not before the 1930s by clericalist and communist traitors and was established and pushed through not before after World War II. Different than with South Tyrol the Austriakists never had great feelings of inclusion for the Sudeten Germans who are as much "Austrians" as the South Tyrolese. Regarding Mozart, in proper terms he even wasn't an Austrian because he came from what was in his time the archbishopric Salzburg and not from the archduchy Austria. Claims and praisings of his and his work's Germanness by him and generally of Germandom are much more frequent than such where he would assign his work to a specific Austrianness, not to speak of one which would be definied as antagonistic to German culture (that's not your idea, you stress it, but the quasi-offical Mozart ideology of today's ruling Austriakism.)


After the formal alliance between Fascist Italy and Nazi Germany many Tyrolean National Socialists complained to the highest levels of the N.S.D.A.P. Remarkably Hitler chose not to intervene on the side of the South Tiroleans and backed-up Mussolini's claim to the area. The Tiroleans were given the option of staying in South Tirol and becoming Italianized citizens or moving to the Third Reich for resettlement. This the only case of the N.S.D.A.P. not defending a German minority in a foreign land who were being oppressed to benefit a strategic alliance with an ally. As a result many South Tyroleans became disallusioned with National Socialism and began a low-level insurgency against the Italian government which persisted even after W.W.2.

One must mention here, however, that in 1943 Hitler finally "convinced" Mussolini of ceding South Tyrol to Germany.

Fortis_in_Arduis
Monday, December 25th, 2006, 01:27 PM
After W.W.1 this region was awarded to Italy and after Mussolini came to power he "Italianized" the area with large numbers of Italians from different regions of Italy in his effort to consolidate his northern border.

I cannot understand the insensitivity of uprooting Italians and plonking them into Southern Tirol. This reminds me of Stalin's dumping of Russian's into the Baltic States. Quite a cruel thing to do. If there is to be any movement of peoples, it should be to restore harmony and ethnic solidarity, not create walls of conflict.

I feel that it is unwise not to recognise the more localised identities of different peoples, you risk collectivising people too much if you do this. You can make the central state too powerful.

newenstad
Friday, February 2nd, 2007, 12:02 PM
Regarding Mozart, in proper terms he even wasn't an Austrian because he came from what was in his time the archbishopric Salzburg and not from the archduchy Austria. Claims and praisings of his and his work's Germanness by him and generally of Germandom are much more frequent than such where he would assign his work to a specific Austrianness, not to speak of one which would be definied as antagonistic to German culture (that's not your idea, you stress it, but the quasi-offical Mozart ideology of today's ruling Austriakism.)


Deja vu...

First off all: Austrians are German (most of them, but that's another story).
Second: Austrians are the better Germans. :D;)

Aeternitas
Friday, February 2nd, 2007, 11:25 PM
I never said otherwise per se. At the very most, if Austria is a seperate nation, it's still a Germanic nation.
It is a country/state.


Their Germanic heritage is not exactly the same as the one presented by Prussia, That's true, but this can also be said about Bavarians and Prussians, for example, yet both are part of the same German nation. In fact, one could say Bavarians have some things more in common with Austrians, than with Prussians. But these are historical and regional differences which can be found within practically any nation. The overall national identity still exists.


so to simply assert they're not Austrians but Germans is rather simplistic IMO.Cossiga was speaking in terms of nation (i.e. people) when he said that "South Tyroleans are not Austrians", since he stated his opinion that "the idea of an Austrian nation was invented by Austrian fascists".

Sissi
Monday, February 23rd, 2009, 05:27 AM
Dollfuss and his regime based the Austrian identity on a Germanic ethnic base. The Austrian identity to Dollfuss was built on the Catholic faith and the heritage of the Hasburg Empire(btw there were pan-Germanists who favoured a Germany united under the Hasburbs as opposed to under Prussia), as opposed to the Protestantism and anti-Catholicism of the Germany founded by Bismarck. Dollfuss never argued there was an ethnic difference between Germans and Austrians.
But Dollfuss argued other things destructive to German unity and cooperation, like Austrian "superiority". According to Dollfuss and his ideology of "Austrofascism", Austrians were the "better Germans". He highlighted Austrian history and identity as distinct. He alienated Austrians and Germans. Dollfuss promoted separatism of Austrians and a model of fascism inspired from Italy. In a way he was a pawn of Mussolini's, because Mussolini was interested in Austria forming a buffer zone against National Socialist Germany.

Peoples Observer
Sunday, September 20th, 2009, 05:19 AM
But Dollfuss argued other things destructive to German unity and cooperation, like Austrian "superiority". According to Dollfuss and his ideology of "Austrofascism", Austrians were the "better Germans". He highlighted Austrian history and identity as distinct. He alienated Austrians and Germans. Dollfuss promoted separatism of Austrians and a model of fascism inspired from Italy. In a way he was a pawn of Mussolini's, because Mussolini was interested in Austria forming a buffer zone against National Socialist Germany.

Dollfuss was a traitor to the Germans of Austria. He was anti-NS.

He formed an alliance with a non-Germanic country (Italy) and was inspired by Mussolini, the arch enemy of Austrians in general and Tyroleans in particular.

Siebenbürgerin
Sunday, September 20th, 2009, 03:47 PM
Yes! I'm agree. But i would like add what not only Sud Tyrol is side of Osterreich but the Friaul Region too. Desafortunately it's forgot from many people.

Friaul zum Osterreich ! :thumbup

About Germans questions i have readed some original Ahnenerbe's and Gestapo's documents and Hans Gunther's original book where was wrote about germanisch Rasse and not white race.

:thumbup
Hmm, I'm interested in learning about this region. How alive is the German identity there? I've found on Wikipedia that some German dialects are spoken there:


German (Bavarian dialect) is spoken in Val Canale (mostly in Tarvisio and Pontebba); in some of Val Canale's municipalities (particularly in Malborghetto Valbruna). German-related dialects are spoken in several ancient enclaves like Timau, Zahre (Sauris) and Plodn (Sappada).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Friuli

Peoples Observer
Friday, September 25th, 2009, 08:41 PM
The EU should let Sued-Tirol become an independent nation like Switzerland.

The South Tyrolese have been totally forgotten, abandoned and betrayed by almost all Germans, including the Austrians.

Everyone from the Third Reich down to the present German Nationalists seem more concerned with their relations with Italy than liberty for the South Tyrolese.

They do get some semi-autonomy but still not freedom.

I really don't understand why there is not the concern to help them or the energy to support them.

Hitler was supposed to be protector and guarantor of oppressed Germans.
He did certainly help the Germans in Eastern Europe under the Slavic dominion.
And he helped the Alsatians under French dominion. And even the Nord-Schleswigers under Danish control.

The Italians want to be on great relations with all Germans EXCEPT the South Tyroleans. This is hypocricy.

Nordlander
Friday, September 25th, 2009, 08:59 PM
Man makes borders and boundries ,the blood in ones veins cannot be changed .if a Chinaman is living in Norway does that make him a Viking? NOT!