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Northern Paladin
Thursday, August 18th, 2005, 03:10 PM
Do you feel that Western Laws are too lax when it comes to punishing crime?

I think Western Laws are too Lax and this causes high crime or much higher crime than need be.

For example when the Nazi's were in Power Germany's crime rate was almost non-existant.

I believe one reasons Laws are so lax is because there is clear interest of those involved for it to be so.

QuietWind
Thursday, August 18th, 2005, 03:16 PM
It depends on the crime. Silly crimes get unbelievable punishments, while severe ones get tiny little sentences.

Zyklop
Thursday, August 18th, 2005, 04:46 PM
The problem is not the law, it´s the "West" itself.

Scholar
Thursday, August 18th, 2005, 06:57 PM
I wouldn't say the problem is the west, I'd say the problem is the punishments. I agree that some crimes get hit on too hard and others too little but I'd like to see harsher punishments all together. One of the reasons people are not punished as much as they should be has to be blamed on our prison system. Over 2 million Americans are incarcerated and it's costing too much to keep them imprisoned. If it were cheap to incarcerate people, punishments would be harsher. You just can't throw everyone in jail...

Requiem
Friday, August 19th, 2005, 06:31 AM
The big problem is the entire western society, but yes our laws are much too lax. A good society would have no problem with execution, and it would be passed out to all child molesters, murders for stupid reasons, drugies, and other such offenses. As well as the fact that we are too nice to prisoners. 2*2 Cell, three meals a day, one hour exercise, no luxuries whatsoever, and put to labour for most of the day. Prisoners can never obtain money whatsoever while they are in jail, whether for working or for whining about being hurt.

Dr. Solar Wolff
Friday, August 19th, 2005, 06:56 AM
Maybe the reason that crime was almost non-existant in Nazi Germany was because people there found something larger than their petty concerns to involve themselves in.

The reason most American criminals are in jail is drugs. In America, we have nothing the government does not want us to have so our high incarceration rate is by government design.

Anyone who thinks for one nanosecond that the laws in the West are too lax simply needs to move to Kern County, Calfornia, preferably Bakersfield. There is a County District Attorney there, Ed Jaggles, who has had books and magazine articles written about him and his work. Basically, you are never cited for breaking only one law in Kern County, they will charge you with ten violations, nine of which are simply fabricated, and then enter into a plea deal with you. Everyone says of this that you will be allowed to plea your way back down to the death penality. The unofficial motto of Kern County is:
Come on vacation
Leave on probation
Come back on a violation

Think of the country/western song "Midnight Special" and you will get the picture. It is a police state.

Rhydderch
Friday, August 19th, 2005, 01:50 PM
Maybe the reason that crime was almost non-existant in Nazi Germany was because people there found something larger than their petty concerns to involve themselves in.Yes, the criminals just joined the army, and let out their hatred on anyone unfortunate enough to fall into their hands.

I think the German army then was largely made up of [...]. Easier to brainwash them, especially if they can get something out of it for themselves.

QuietWind
Friday, August 19th, 2005, 01:56 PM
I'd like to follow Dr. Solar Wolff's example with one about Sheriff Joe Arpaio in Arizona. I first read about him several months ago, and he sounds like a good guy in my book. He has done things such as: making criminals sleep out in tents (even in the Arizona heat of the summer), inmates wear pink underwear, he took away coffee, he took away porn and most TV (except educational tv), he reduced the cost of inmates meals, he established the first female chain gang (work group), etc.

http://www.pww.org/article/articleview/4786/1/148/

http://www.cnn.com/US/9907/27/tough.sheriff/

http://www.mcso.org/

http://www.reelectjoe.com/issues/display_issues.cfm?ID=-1514266224

Rhydderch
Friday, August 19th, 2005, 01:58 PM
Silly crimes get unbelievable punishments, while severe ones get tiny little sentences.Murder seems to be becoming less and less of a serious offence, one woman got away with hacking her husband to death with an axe a while ago. But woe to whoever dares to commit a crime involving money, or has so horridly depraved a mind as to.....err.....cut off a kitten's head.

Thusnelda
Friday, August 19th, 2005, 06:37 PM
You're wrong, I didn't grow up in Germany ;)
So, you´re on an anti-german rampage? And you´re laughing about the, in your view, stupid and thuggy German soldiers in Wk2? Well, I see, the worlds famous Army - from Down Under - "owned" them all...or...well.. :P :dancnerd
I don´t think you´re right.

To the topic: Overall, I think the Western laws are too lax. In some cases too strong, in some cases too low. If one dont pay correctly all taxes or try to not paying all taxes to the state, he gets many years of prison. But if one kills another one in rage or indirectly, he gets a very low prison penalty or dont even a prison penalty at all.

Thusnelda
Friday, August 19th, 2005, 08:28 PM
Maybe you´re getting me wrong, since I made my critiscm civilly and with a shoot of humour.

SiegUmJedenPreis
Friday, August 19th, 2005, 08:44 PM
It depends on the crime. Silly crimes get unbelievable punishments, while severe ones get tiny little sentences.

Well...the concept of punishing small crimes to the max has proven very effective.

I think in the States they refer to it as the "Broken window" policy...punishing small crimes harshly to combat the larger ones. In New York city it nearly halved the crimerate when it was implemented.

However I agree with the issue regarding the bigger crimes. There should be no toleration of delinquency in any form.

Siegfried
Friday, August 19th, 2005, 11:00 PM
I've moved to thread to Law. As for the question; it depends very much on the crime involved. Treason largely goes unpunished nowadays, while the punishment for owning small amounts of marihuana for personal use is way too severe in most of the West (in fact, marihuana use should be legalised for adults of sound mind). The sentences for most crimes vary in their proportionality.

Theobald
Saturday, August 20th, 2005, 12:25 AM
the punishment for owning small amounts of marihuana for personal use is way too severe in most of the West


Someone posessing or smoking marijuana for himself is not much more of a threat to society than a tobacco smoker or alcohol drinker IMO.

The fact is - (at least here but I think it's pretty much the same situation in the whole West) marijuana consumption is generally linked to foreigners (90% of dealers being Morrocans), hip-hop, "ghetto stuff" and all this "culture" - whereas alcohol is not. And when consumers and dealers are not (wannabe-)Arabs or Blacks they are most likely hippies or leftists - which is hardly good either.
Not to mention that when you drink beer or wine you give money to your own people/economy while you send money to Morocco when you smoke marijuana. ;)

Anyway, back to topic, I think that Western European laws are of course too lax - especially since death penalty does not exist anymore. For example I have heard that only 35% of the people who have been condemned to prison are actually jailed in France. :| There are often judicial affairs and crimes where murderers had already been jailed 15 or 20 times and still freed again and then killed people, ...
However there is a domain where Western laws are not too lax : "racism".

Theobald
Saturday, August 20th, 2005, 12:49 AM
That depends, really. If you buy Perrier, your money may as well go to Israel. The same happens when you buy prefectly legal and much more 'harmless' products than marijuana

Yeah of course but in general marijuana in Europe comes from Maghreb - excepted for people who grow their own marijuana (they are more and more, but still a small minority) - and in general wine and beer consumed in Western Europe are local/"indigenous".
And French wine and German beer are far better than Perrier, aren't they ? ;) :D


just see this thread (http://forums.skadi.net/showthread.php?t=38261) :D

I must be a ZOG-collaborator then, I wear Boss and DIM + I go to Carrefour and I drink Nescafé and some Danone products. :P

Theobald
Saturday, August 20th, 2005, 01:30 AM
Coca-Cola is also a very popular and non-indigenous drink.

I was speaking about booze. ;)


I don't believe the possession or individual usage of marijuana alone is a criminal act. And I certainly don't believe one should go, for example, to prison or receive a similar severe punishment for such an act.

Of course I agree. But I've never seen or heard of people going to prison for owning or using small quantities of marijuana. Even when someone is publicly smoking a joint in the street and is seen by policemen, he just loses his joint and can get away without any problem (I have personally seen such cases several times ;) ). Only dealers (generally with important quantities of drugs) are really arrested and jailed. But not for a long enough time IMO.
And as I said - the problem with marijuana is rather its "cultural" background (either ghettos/hip-hop or hippies).

Rhydderch
Saturday, August 20th, 2005, 03:34 AM
So, you´re on an anti-german rampage?Anti-Nazi, not anti-German ;)


And you´re laughing about the, in your view, stupid and thuggy German soldiers in Wk2?As opposed to normal Germans. When a bad man with bad intentions wants to get his way with violence, he will of course recruit from the worst elements of society, those who are willing to commit murder and torture.
There are plenty of such thugs here, who would probably make a surprisingly murderous and sadistic group if ordered into an army. One might not expect such horrible things could have happened in a relatively 'normal' country like Germany (yes, I know some like to claim that it's all Jewish propaganda), but it's perhaps a little easier to see when you realise that such elements exist in society; they're suppressed, but I think if a bad man came to power here, we would realise that these sadistic thugs are commoner than we thought; there'd be volunteers all over the place.

Of course, I'm well aware that many Germans were normal men fighting for their country, and by 'largely' I didn't (necessarily) mean a majority.
The sort I have in mind were probably commoner in prison camps etc.

As for the circus comment, no offence to Germany, it was a joke, I would have said it about any country if the situation arose :D

Rhydderch
Saturday, August 20th, 2005, 03:51 AM
I'm inclined to think that if corporal punishment was (re)introduced, it would greatly reduce the number of petty crimes. These are often committed by young aimless people who are not effected by small jail terms or fines; life is aimless and meaningless to them anyway, so the punishment is just a slap on the wrist. But fear of physical pain might make them think twice.

Dr. Solar Wolff
Saturday, August 20th, 2005, 06:05 AM
Where I live, the reason small crimes are so strongly punished is that law enforcement personnel is simply doing the easy work. They are afraid to tackle drug dealers but not afraid to bust pot smokers in parks. The will give motorists speeding tickets yet every trucker in the state of California is now speeding as you read this post. Our police and Highway Patrol are afraid to ticket truckers either physically afraid or afraid of their powerful union and the influence it has purchased among politicians to direct the highway patrol. The same principle runs through American culture on many levels. In the 1980 police were given more power to combat drug pushers and they used this power on the people because it was the easy thing to do. I would put all law enforcement on a commission pay basis and only pay them for felonies. Oh yes, by the way, illegal immigration is a felony, so they should spend most of their time rounding up and deporting illegal aliens---but that is way too hard for coffee drinking, donut eating cops. We live in a f------ police state.

Imperator X
Sunday, August 21st, 2005, 01:52 AM
Marijuana came to the West from Scythia. The Goths smoked it, the Old Gothic term for Cannabis was hanafs.

Gorm the Old
Sunday, August 21st, 2005, 05:53 PM
There has been little or no discussion of a major reason why laws in the West are too lenient. That is what I call the ACLU mentality, characterised by excessive concern with the rights and welfare of criminals and virtually no concern for their victims. This bleeding-heart liberal attitude is the reason that the death penalty is so rarely employed. It is also resposnsible for the "country club" atmosphere of some prisons. We are supposed to be compassionate toward these "unfortunate victims of society" , as if the person wronged in a crime is the perpetrator rather than the victim. That muddle-headed mystic, Khalil Gibran, actually stated that "The victim is not innocent of the crime." How about that for perverse reasoning ? Look at the protestors outside the prison when some heartless monster of a mass-murderer is condemned to death. One would think that he is a saint being immolated. Alas, we have fools of the same stripe in government, hence the pernicious leniency of our laws.

Rhydderch
Monday, August 22nd, 2005, 06:27 AM
The sort I have in mind were probably commoner in prison camps etc.In fact it's probably the SS I'm thinking of.

nicholas
Monday, September 26th, 2005, 06:55 PM
It depends on the crime. Silly crimes get unbelievable punishments, while severe ones get tiny little sentences.

I'll second this. Get a traffic ticket and whilst you are not given an attorney by the state it will cost you twice as much to fight the ticket than to outright pay for it. Tickets range according to infraction and are teh primary source of revenue for most states.

Yet, rape a baby and you'll get a slap on the wrist and groups such as the ACLU demanding you be allowed to live in a group home next to a school.
(yes, in CA there are sexual predator group homes near schools).

nicholas
Monday, September 26th, 2005, 07:00 PM
Well...the concept of punishing small crimes to the max has proven very effective.

I think in the States they refer to it as the "Broken window" policy...punishing small crimes harshly to combat the larger ones. In New York city it nearly halved the crimerate when it was implemented.

However I agree with the issue regarding the bigger crimes. There should be no toleration of delinquency in any form.

That's downright idiotic. Pulling people over on traffic tickets doesn't reduce the possibility of someone murdering someone else or committing an extremely serious crime.

nicholas
Monday, September 26th, 2005, 07:06 PM
There's also corruption. In Arcata CA there are city officials who use marijuana heavily and are untouchable by police due to under the table kickbacks and favors. Yet, a homeless person sleeping on a bench will have two squad cars sent to harrass him/her.

Much easier to intimidate helpless, weak, frightened individuals than go after meth dealers who are armed and wouldn't give a second thought to shooting back.


Where I live, the reason small crimes are so strongly punished is that law enforcement personnel is simply doing the easy work. They are afraid to tackle drug dealers but not afraid to bust pot smokers in parks. The will give motorists speeding tickets yet every trucker in the state of California is now speeding as you read this post. Our police and Highway Patrol are afraid to ticket truckers either physically afraid or afraid of their powerful union and the influence it has purchased among politicians to direct the highway patrol. The same principle runs through American culture on many levels. In the 1980 police were given more power to combat drug pushers and they used this power on the people because it was the easy thing to do. I would put all law enforcement on a commission pay basis and only pay them for felonies. Oh yes, by the way, illegal immigration is a felony, so they should spend most of their time rounding up and deporting illegal aliens---but that is way too hard for coffee drinking, donut eating cops. We live in a f------ police state.

CountBloodSpawn
Tuesday, September 27th, 2005, 06:14 PM
There has been little or no discussion of a major reason why laws in the West are too lenient. That is what I call the ACLU mentality, characterised by excessive concern with the rights and welfare of criminals and virtually no concern for their victims. This bleeding-heart liberal attitude is the reason that the death penalty is so rarely employed. It is also resposnsible for the "country club" atmosphere of some prisons. We are supposed to be compassionate toward these "unfortunate victims of society" , as if the person wronged in a crime is the perpetrator rather than the victim. That muddle-headed mystic, Khalil Gibran, actually stated that "The victim is not innocent of the crime." How about that for perverse reasoning ? Look at the protestors outside the prison when some heartless monster of a mass-murderer is condemned to death. One would think that he is a saint being immolated. Alas, we have fools of the same stripe in government, hence the pernicious leniency of our laws.

why is it that natures unfittest are the ones who get all the attention and power in the modern world

SiegUmJedenPreis
Wednesday, September 28th, 2005, 06:21 PM
That's downright idiotic. Pulling people over on traffic tickets doesn't reduce the possibility of someone murdering someone else or committing an extremely serious crime.
WOW! I'm amazed, what an intellegent reply...:-O

Honestly, research proves that there is indeed a direct correlation between the punishment of minor crimes and the tendency of people to commit serious crimes.

The concept of broken window policing also involvement of the community to minimise the damage of minot crimes (i.e. grafitti being painted over almost immediately, removing litter and garbage out of the streets, no toleration of drugs - even small one's, etc...)

We implimented it here as well about 6-7 months ago and its really amazing to see the results...the violent crimes(even rape) have gone done by about 55%. Might not sound alot to you, but to us here its a real difference.

Anyhow, whether you like to believe it or not makes no difference. It works :thumbup

Here's some more:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Broken_Windows_Theory

nicholas
Wednesday, September 28th, 2005, 06:42 PM
post statistics. post studies. Right now you're talking nonsense! Show me proof!


WOW! I'm amazed, what an intellegent reply...:-O

Honestly, research proves that there is indeed a direct correlation between the punishment of minor crimes and the tendency of people to commit serious crimes.

The concept of broken window policing also involvement of the community to minimise the damage of minot crimes (i.e. grafitti being painted over almost immediately, removing litter and garbage out of the streets, no toleration of drugs - even small one's, etc...)

We implimented it here as well about 6-7 months ago and its really amazing to see the results...the violent crimes(even rape) have gone done by about 55%. Might not sound alot to you, but to us here its a real difference.

Anyhow, whether you like to believe it or not makes no difference. It works :thumbup

Here's some more:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Broken_Windows_Theory

SiegUmJedenPreis
Wednesday, September 28th, 2005, 07:00 PM
post statistics. post studies. Right now you're talking nonsense! Show me proof!

My my, what colourful language. Then again this kind of emotional outburst is to be expected from a Republican :D...

I'll see what I can do about sources, however I have to frank...the research study was done by an independant Firm...so it is subject to copyright...but I'll try my best. ;)

nicholas
Wednesday, September 28th, 2005, 07:37 PM
I'll see what I can do about sources, however I have to frank...the research study was done by an independant Firm...so it is subject to copyright...but I'll try my best. ;)

Thank you. I understand the theory from the link previously provided but I don't buy it. If the studies are talking just rape and murder then other factors may need to be taken into account. Yet, there are some crimes which will not be deterred....just look at suburbia, lots of illegal stuff goes on there but because most of it happens in secluded homes it is not as apparent.

SiegUmJedenPreis
Wednesday, September 28th, 2005, 07:55 PM
Thank you. I understand the theory from the link previously provided but I don't buy it. If the studies are talking just rape and murder then other factors may need to be taken into account. Yet, there are some crimes which will not be deterred....just look at suburbia, lots of illegal stuff goes on there but because most of it happens in secluded homes it is not as apparent.

True. I must say, I do not believe this is some heaven sent plan...though I've noticed it works pretty well on less intellegent criminal (especially blacks).

We used to have a huge problem with blacks selling crap on our street corners, and since the police started throwing these guys in jail...well lets just say the drugs sales have gone down and we have less car brake ins:D:D.

However in the mostly white sub's the effect has been minimal. (Since the more intellegent offender believes he/she wont get caught.)

That was my politically incorrect observation with regard to the BWP.

Cole Nidray
Thursday, September 29th, 2005, 12:42 AM
Compare,

http://www.kvia.com/Global/story.asp?S=3786184

to

http://www.citizenreviewonline.org/aug_2005/20/immigrants.htm